Religious beliefs?

[Tiabin]

I'm just kind of curious how many of you guys (particularily the juicers of the board) consider themselves Christians?

 

[ManBeast]

First flame in ANY direction and this thread is over... That is all I have to say.

ManBeast

 

[Matthew D]

Personally, I wish we wouldn't have this thread at all.. just too easy to get into a flame war

 

[zeromagnus]

Personally, I wish we wouldn't have this thread at all.. just too easy to get into a flame war

I must agree.

 

[Tiabin]

Don't really understand how it could provoke a flame... not looking for a religious discussion. Anyone who could turn this into a flame thread should get banned for picking an argument. ;-)

 

[Sticks]

I struggle w/the moral side of juicing a lot. I'm starting to put my first cycle together for this winter, and my morals, and religious beliefs hold me back. Definately something i've been thinking about.

 

[Matthew D]

I am just wondering why you even asked the question if you weren't looking for a discussion

 

[cr4ytonic]

I just watched the "unbelievable ronnie coleman" video. Pretty sure he is on the juice but looked like he was praying before every meal.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

I just watched the "unbelievable ronnie coleman" video. Pretty sure he is on the juice but looked like he was praying before every meal.

From what I read he is pretty religious.

 

[cr4ytonic]

I was really impressed, I don't keep up with mr. olympia and have never watched the competition, but he seemed like a nice guy who busts his ass every day in the gym and then on the police force.

I expected him to be a little more cocky. It was funny how he kept saying "light weight" before each lift, including an 800lb dead lift.

Sorry to get off topic.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

Personally, I wish we wouldn't have this thread at all.. just too easy to get into a flame war

People can have civil discussions about religion. From what I have seen the problems usually don't come from different religions debating but between atheists and people who believe in God, a higher power , or what ever you want to call it. Other than than people can talk about thier ideas and beliefs while still being civil even if they disagree.

 

[jjjd]

what the heck does juicing have to do with christianity?

i mean, seriously.

i think most juicing christians view laws against AAS as malum prohibitum not malum in se.

iow, they are "bad because they are illegal" not "illegal because they are bad"

and while christianity has a general concept that one should obey the law of the land, it also has room for breaking unjust laws

judaism too, i might add

but since you asked, yes i am christian

 

[RobInKuwait]

what the heck does juicing have to do with christianity?

Well, theres a bible passage that says your body is a temple.......I'm sure god would like it if you expanded the temple and make it bigger for him.

I'm not christian tho, I'm an atheist.

 

[toastynoodles]

Personally, I wish we wouldn't have this thread at all.. just too easy to get into a flame war

Man i see it happen over and over frist it starts out as a ? then people start quoteing stuff from the bible and all hell breaks lose!!!
i'm with matt on this one it's to touchy for some people!!!!!!

 

[ManBeast]

Like I said... Just behave and everything will be ok...

ManBeast

 

[RobInKuwait]

Man i see it happen over and over frist it starts out as a ? then people start quoteing stuff from the bible and all hell breaks lose!!!
i'm with matt on this one it's to touchy for some people!!!!!!

Yeah....youre right.....I just love twisting the bibles words around to get a rise out of christians tho

 

[Matthew D]

People can have civil discussions about religion. From what I have seen the problems usually don't come from different religions debating but between atheists and people who believe in God, a higher power , or what ever you want to call it. Other than than people can talk about thier ideas and beliefs while still being civil even if they disagree.

I have to strongly disagree with that... some of the worst discussions I have gotten into have come from different denomations of the Protestants... I am in the process of watching my church split, losing all three of our leaders, due to difference on how we should serve our fellow man. And trust me, the discussion weren't that civil at times.
Also, if you look at history some of the worst injustices done were done in the name of a certain type of religion.

 

[sage]

Im catholic and believe in the existance of the Lord very much. Do i have problems morally about using anabolics? No.... however the question of is it right or wrong was tossed around before I ever started my first cycle. I put my faith and show it everyday....
Sage

 

[cr4ytonic]

Also, if you look at history some of the worst injustices done were done in the name of a certain type of religion.

People like to say this, but it is not really true. People kill people in general. Yeah, lots were killed during the crusades in the name of religion.

However, Hitler killed ~20 million and Stalin killed probably a few million more. Neither invoked religion. There are many other examples.

Religions don't kill people. People kill people.

 

[RobInKuwait]

People like to say this, but it is not really true. People kill people in general. Yeah, lots were killed during the crusades in the name of religion.

However, Hitler killed ~20 million and Stalin killed probably a few million more. Neither invoked religion. There are many other examples.

Religions don't kill people. People kill people.

I agree that people kill people, but the basic principle is behind most religions is that there is one right way to live. That leads to intolerance toward groups that live differently. Granted the people do the killing, but the intolerance taught by most religions justifies their actions in their own minds.

 

[jweave23]

I agree that people kill people, but the basic principle is behind most religions is that there is one right way to live. That leads to intolerance toward groups that live differently. Granted the people do the killing, but the intolerance taught by most religions justifies their actions in their own minds.

I agree with this for the most part

There are exceptions to every rule, but IMO the key part of this statement is the "one right way to live". Even if some practitioners are more tolerant than others, often times fundamentalists (of whatever religion) seem to lead intolerance. JMO

 

[cr4ytonic]

I should revise that to say: "Religions don't kill people. Crazy people kill people." Crazy people who are religious and who aren't kill lots of people.

I can't think of any major wars post 1648 treaty of Westphalia that have anything to do with religion.

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm (scroll down a bit for the list) Is a list of the top 20 worst things people have done to each other by body count. The vast majority have little to do with religion.

It is easy to say religions cause intolerance, which they may to some extent, but I don't see the proof that religion is the cause of a significant % of the people who have been killed.

 

[jjjd]

inarguably (the stats don't lie), the VAST majority of killings (unjustified i might add) in the LAST CENTURY were done by OFFICIALLY ATHEIST (note: not merely secular, but officially atheist) governments

atheists (and in the greatest #'s, communist atheists) have killed far far far more people in this century than theists.

period.

even including islamofascists.

stalin, mao, pol pot, etc.

need i go on

religion doesn't cause intolerance. people are naturally intolerant. we don't need help with that.

but the reality is, that in RECENT (ie last 100 years) history, it has been demonstrably proven that official atheism (and of course "strong" atheism is as much a religion as theism, since it requires a leap of faith and a determination about the undetermined) is more dangerous than theism, or secularism.

 

[Matthew D]

okay.. whatever...

 

[jjjd]

well, you can't argue with the stats. do you want to try. Hint: how many people did officially atheist govt's kill in the last century (it's well over 50 million)

how many did theist govt's kill?

do the math

it's a meme among many (wrongly) that religion is the CAUSE of all this killing, etc.

but they fail to acknowledge that atheism is behind FAR MORE killing recent history than theism

something i never would have PREDICTED, but you can't argue with the stats

and i note you don't even try

 

[VanillaGorilla]

I have to strongly disagree with that... some of the worst discussions I have gotten into have come from different denomations of the Protestants... I am in the process of watching my church split, losing all three of our leaders, due to difference on how we should serve our fellow man. And trust me, the discussion weren't that civil at times.
Also, if you look at history some of the worst injustices done were done in the name of a certain type of religion.

Actually I was referring to discussions on message boards. What's going on with your church?

 

[custom]

I have an excellent paper on this subject detailing what you have outined here. I may have to dig that up...

inarguably (the stats don't lie), the VAST majority of killings (unjustified i might add) in the LAST CENTURY were done by OFFICIALLY ATHEIST (note: not merely secular, but officially atheist) governments

atheists (and in the greatest #'s, communist atheists) have killed far far far more people in this century than theists.

period.

even including islamofascists.

stalin, mao, pol pot, etc.

need i go on

religion doesn't cause intolerance. people are naturally intolerant. we don't need help with that.

but the reality is, that in RECENT (ie last 100 years) history, it has been demonstrably proven that official atheism (and of course "strong" atheism is as much a religion as theism, since it requires a leap of faith and a determination about the undetermined) is more dangerous than theism, or secularism.

 

[custom]

I think alot of the flame wars start with an misunderstanding between what people consider tolerance and truth. As a Christian, I am not supposed to tolerate sin, and quite honestly, I cannot stand people trying to tell me I do (homosexuality, fornication, etc.)

The people here have had some very spirited discussions in the past, and I honestly see no reason why the members could not be mature enough to handle this discussion. Bring it on!

 

[B5150]

As a Christian, I am not supposed to tolerate sin, and quite honestly, I cannot stand people trying to tell me I do (homosexuality, fornication, etc.)

Furthermore, as a Christian, we are instructed by Christ to love the homosexual and fornicator (love the sinner -- hate the sin). For great is/was our own sin, and great is the love and grace we have received/been shown.

 

[custom]

Yes, sir. May our love be known by that which we show.

 

[skeptical]

First off, I'm Agnostic, so I'm starting from a biased standpoint. Unlike many non-Christians (and Christians alike), however, I've done quite a bit of religious study (I have a degree in Philosophy--basically worthless outside of discussions such as these).

In questioning whether or not a "true Christian" can remain steadfast while at the same time violating the laws of society, aren't you forgetting that Jesus himself was executed for violations of Roman Law? I'm not saying that if Jesus was alive today he'd be shooting 1000 mgs a week of Test-E or anything, but I do believe that his example teaches us that it is OK to reach out for your own sense of right and wrong even if it stands in the face of the status quo. Why is it wrong to use AAS? Just because "they" say so?

 

[cr4ytonic]

From my understanding of christianity the big problem is the vanity/pride associated with bodybuilding, AAS use or not.

 

[Tiabin]

Honestly I started the thread just to find out how common Christians use AAS... not to "discuss" religious beliefs in the same manner most people think of immediately (i.e. debates). Custom, I was looking at your website and it is actually what spurred my interest with the proverbs in the right hand corner. I'm a Christian and just finished off my third cycle. I don't feel like gear is wrong at all and am somewhat curious as to how many people agree with my views (that are Christians)!

 

[milwood]

Everyone has the right to believe in something, or not to. Some find they change their beliefs over time, suggesting (healthy) open-mindedness. The same should hold for being open to letting others believe as they wish. Who knows anything for sure? When I dig deep into my mind and heart, I find a "feeling" of a Spiritual nature, like looking out into the stars, or across the ocean, or sometimes at a person's smile, or at a little kid playing around or something. Its not Christian, Buddhist, Zen, or anything. But I think all those "paths" are good, when used properly. That would not include imposing on others views (or lack thereof). As far as Jesus is concerned, I think he might go over to the dark side after the ban...

 

[RobInKuwait]

inarguably (the stats don't lie), the VAST majority of killings (unjustified i might add) in the LAST CENTURY were done by OFFICIALLY ATHEIST (note: not merely secular, but officially atheist) governments

atheists (and in the greatest #'s, communist atheists) have killed far far far more people in this century than theists.

period.

I completely agree with your statement. However, my premise was not that atheists do not kill people, it was that religion leads to intolerance. Fascism and Communism also are creeds whose intolerance leads to violence. Intolerant beliefs, be they religious, economic, or social inexorably breed violence.

 

[goes4ever]

Furthermore, as a Christian, we are instructed by Christ to love the homosexual and fornicator (love the sinner -- hate the sin). For great is/was our own sin, and great is the love and grace we have received/been shown.

love the sinner, so true but do not have to accept their sins, or agree with them, or change laws for them etc.......

 

[CDB]

I agree that people kill people, but the basic principle is behind most religions is that there is one right way to live. That leads to intolerance toward groups that live differently. Granted the people do the killing, but the intolerance taught by most religions justifies their actions in their own minds.

Seems to the basic principle behind anyone's ideology is that their way is the right way, whatever it may be, religious, atheist, agnostic, scientific... People are wacky, they'll find any reason they can to inconvenience one another. I think religion is just used a lot more often because it's so pervasive in society. Almost everyone's got it in some form or another.

As for the original question. I believe in God, but it's my own God. See no reason why I or anyone else can't look at the world and decide for ourselves the nature of the deity/deities. My God, laughably enough, is more like the god Crom from the Robert E. Howard's Conan novels. Strength matters a lot, physical, mental and emotional strength, all on a level. If there's heaven I think it's reserved for those who get through life still standing at the end, with their mental, emotional and physical dignity still intact, and hopefully stronger than ever.

 

[jjjd]

Rob, i disagree that religion leads to intolerance. but it depends on what you mean by that word. intolerance of what? evil? good? people who are different?

 

[Tiabin]

Intolerance isn't neccessarily always a bad thing. (I.e. intolerance of misjustice, etc. etc.)

 

[coldseed]

I'm a Catholic and it has never bothered me what anyone else believes or says. To each their own.

I also think Crom is pretty awesome too.

 

[DmitryWI]

Wow, you got nothing better to do that dig out old ass post like that. How did you find it anyway?

 

[omni]

We're all waisting our time! oh, oh

1 Timothy 4:8 says
Physical exercise is of limited value, but Godliness is very dear, a pledge of life, both there and here

I spend more time sleeping than training and less money than some people give to their church on gear. If you believe in heaven, believe juicing is bad for you and that god forgives people, then you should believe that god is happy that your willing to join him sooner.

 

[purelife1]

We're all waisting our time! oh, oh

1 Timothy 4:8 says
Physical exercise is of limited value, but Godliness is very dear, a pledge of life, both there and here

I spend more time sleeping than training and less money than some people give to their church on gear. If you believe in heaven, believe juicing is bad for you and that god forgives people, then you should believe that god is happy that your willing to join him sooner.

why if you beleive in God would juice be wrong...if our body is the temple then we should want the greatest temple for God so i disagree with those statements..people eat highly processed foods and junk that is bad for them does not make them wrong etc..ive been shown that example of 1 Timothy several times and each time its from a obese preacher eating fried chicken on Sunday which gave him a reason not to take better care of himself..but if God wanted to visit his temple he would have to wade through pounds of blubber

 

[Irish Cannon]

The only thing I struggle with is the legality of it. Assuming it's not an obsession, I have no moral issues with the sauce if it's done correctly.

I enjoy this discussion as it's a good one, and I've had it on many occasions regarding gear and recreational drugs. - My church is actually doing a study titled God's Gym; it balances the importance of strengthening our spiritual bodies as well as our physical bodies. It's pretty dang cool. I was struggling with proper balance and it has really helped me out.

Currently on M1D/SD/Epi, btw.

 

[BBB]

I have been a Christian for over 30 years. It takes more faith to believe in atheism/evolution than in Christianity IMO and I am grateful to have a creator and the promise of a life after this. Although I don’t advocate the use of illegal drugs, which is definitely against what is taught in the Bible, over the years I have struggled with the concept of bodybuilding in general. It just seems so vain. But then again we do a lot of things in the name of vanity. We dress according to the latest style; we buy expensive cars and houses to improve our image. Women and some men wear makeup to look better. Some go as far as cosmetic surgery to enhance their appearance and know one considers any of these activities “anti-Christian”. So why would bodybuilding be any different. And yes our bodies are considered temples so whatever we do we should not cause harm yet we eat junk food and many don’t exercise, all of which is detrimental to the body and overall health. Everything needs to be kept in perspective.

 

[Flaw]

I have been a Christian for over 30 years. It takes more faith to believe in atheism/evolution than in Christianity

Completely Agree! Far more faith. Just as the atheist says prove to me there is a god the christians say prove to me there is no god. I believe there's more evidence based on the things seen that there's a intelligent creator(god) then there is to disprove his existence. Plus... who else is giving us the hope of eternal life?

John 6:66 Upon this many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 6:67 Jesus said therefore unto the twelve, Would ye also go away? 6:68 Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.


On topic.. If I were to obtain the anabolics illegally that would be a problem. It's really no different then using marijuana or another illegal drug. On the other hand if I go to the Dr. and he tells me my test is low and I get proven results of that and get injections legally then my concious would be at ease.

 

[omni]

Look at the symptoms of low teststerone. If you know your at risk then you should take care of it. I don't think god would mind you medicating yourself to be healthier. legally or otherwise.

 

[BoyFromAus]

Look at the symptoms of low teststerone. If you know your at risk then you should take care of it. I don't think god would mind you medicating yourself to be healthier. legally or otherwise.

yup..that's right

8 billion human beings occupying this planet like a virus. Humans causing mass pollution and destruction in several shapes and forms, while harming all other inhabitants. I'm sure god will ignore all this and just be mad at Joe the Plumber due to steroid usage.

 

[DR.D]

Look at the symptoms of low teststerone. If you know your at risk then you should take care of it. I don't think god would mind you medicating yourself to be healthier. legally or otherwise.

Allow me to use another example of 'enhancement'. Look at the symptoms of poor vision. If you operate a motor vehicle with bad eyes, you may run over somebody! So if you have poor eyesight, does God disapprove of you wearing glasses? Be practical and have some common sense about these issues. In other words, put your glasses on if you need them. But God cannot approve of illegal means if it does not glorify His purpose or priority system, that would violate His just character. You reap as you sow, and it's a violation of His universal harvest law (some call it karma) to reap an honest gain from dishonest means, so either use a noncontrolled legal OTC supplement, or get a doctor if you seek such goals. That way you stay blameless in the eyes of men, and in the eyes of God as well (if your motives are legit.) On a slightly related note, check out this example from the Bible...

Exodus 1:15-21 (New International Version)

The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, whose names were Shiphrah and Puah, "When you help the Hebrew women in childbirth and observe them on the delivery stool, if it is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, let her live." The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live. Then the king of Egypt summoned the midwives and asked them, "Why have you done this? Why have you let the boys live?" The midwives answered Pharaoh, "Hebrew women are not like Egyptian women; they are vigorous and give birth before the midwives arrive." So God was kind to the midwives and the people increased and became even more numerous. And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families of their own.

The midwives clearly lied to the King in authority, yet God commended and rewarded them anyway. This is a very, very rare exception. Out of 99.999% of the Bible were lies and disobedience to worldly authority is rebuked, this is the only place in the Bible that I am aware of that shows otherwise. This is significant. I interpret this passage as saying that glorifying God is priority numero uno. This has little to do with this topic (unless God told you to glorify Him by taking HRT) but I do find it interesting. Use common sense guys!

 

[FNG]

You reap as you sow, and it's a violation of His universal harvest law (some call it karma)

And karma always catches the ones who violate His Law, correct?