Marijuana & Alcohol

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  1. Great post WYD. Shows all aspects.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.


  2. Great work to all you guys. You supported it from all sides. Nice job to see people working together as a team. I still like alcohol
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  3. Warning: Opinion


    I like both and all (pot a little more) but I choose not to do either. If I did even occasionally use drugs, like spend 20 bucks on four joints or something, then I would have wasted enough money to get some protein powder or creatine or something. Money that I dont have.

  4. T and Drugs

    As a former willing participant in the bodybuilding subculture, I know quite a bit about what makes bodybuilders tick as well as many of the oddities of the lifestyle. One observation I've made over the years is that bodybuilders really like to take pills.

    Regardless of whether they're prescription drugs, OTC drugs and supplements, or even good old Fred, Barney and Wilma in sugary vitamin form, bodybuilders will down handfuls at a time as a ritual of worship to the muscle gods. And I'll be the first one to admit that in my day, I had a thing for Betty Rubble. I used to eat mouthfuls of the tiny vixen while making poor Barney watch.

    Although Flintstones vitamins probably do not impact T, many recreational, prescription, and OTC drugs do. Lets start with everyone's favorite drug, alcohol. In my opinion, alcohol is the single best legal Testosterone suppressor known to mankind. And you don't need a biochemistry experiment to realize that. Just look at the physique of any alcoholic for the evidence. And not only do chronic alcoholics suffer from low T as a result of sippin' a cold one. Numerous studies have shown that even one night on the town can cause T levels to plummet.

    In one particular study, men consumed the equivalent of giving 200 ml of alcohol to a 176-lb man. While intoxicated, T levels were 25% lower on average than before consumption. In addition, the time course of T decrease correlated exactly with blood alcohol so when blood alcohol was the highest, blood T was the lowest.(17) With even lower doses, T levels remained suppressed for 10-16 hours, even after blood alcohol returned to normal.(23,24)

    As a side note, one question I'm often asked by men concerns why they get so aroused when drinking. Well gents, in addition to the decrease of inhibitions, the body is fighting to maintain Testosterone homeostasis. As a result, high amounts of LH are released in order to bring T levels back to normal. As mentioned earlier, LH is correlated more with arousal than T, so that's why you get horny, you dogs. The problem, though, is that high LH secretion is ineffective at increasing T during an alcoholic stupor. Alcohol, you see, prevents T production at the Leydig cell level and not at the pituitary level. So you're arousal is up, but T stays down.

    You don't drink? Well here is just a list of other drugs that decrease T levels in one way or another3,4,25)

    1) Aspirin

    2) Marijuana

    3) Codeine

    4) Opioids like Morphine, Methadone, and Heroin

    You'll notice that a few of these drugs are used for pain. These drugs act on the central nervous system to produce analgesia, a desired effect for guys who pound their muscles day in and day out in the gym. Before you load up on the painkillers though, consider that one group of researchers actually uses T depletion in the blood as an assay for narcotic effectiveness.(3)

    What this means is that the better a drug is at producing analgesia, the more it will reduce Testosterone levels. It's believed that these drugs act on the pituitary to block LH secretion and ultimately, T production.(25)

    Two other drugs I'd like to mention are Nolvadex and thyroid hormone. Some authors have speculated that both drugs can increase T levels. I'm not convinced. In men who are severely hypothyroid, thyroid medication can increase total T levels.(10) But the doses needed are high. If you're dumb enough to try huge doses of thyroid hormone to try to increase your total T, the catabolic effects of that amount of thyroid would negate any anabolic effects of the increased T.

    Both Nolvadex and thyroid drugs also increase SHBG.(10) Remember that the goal in increasing Testosterone levels is to increase bioavailable T not just total T. If SHBG goes up as total T goes up, then the bioavailable Testosterone may stay the same, or worse yet, decrease. Don't get the wrong idea, though. Optimizing thyroid function through supplements produces a different effect than taking thyroid drugs. Either way, this course of action should help you lose body fat, but I don't think it will increase T levels one bit.

    In summary, for maximum T, be cautious of how you use alcohol, marijuana, and painkillers. If you're going to assault your boys with alcohol, perhaps a few shots of diol would be an appropriate chaser. If painkillers have a shelf of their own in your medicine cabinet, perhaps an LH booster like Tribulus would be of benefit to your testis.


    3)Cicero, TJ. J Pharm Exp Thera 202 (3): 670-675, 1977.

    4)Conte, D et al., Am J Physiol (Endocrinol Metab, 40) 277: E1032-E1037, 1999.

    10)Greenspan, FS et al., Basic and Clinical Endocrinology. Appleton and Lange, 1997

    17)Mendelson, JH et al., J Pharmacol Exp Ther 202 (3): 676-682, 1977.

    23)Valemaki, M et al., Alcohol Clin Exp 14: 928-931, 1990.

    24)Valemaki, M et al, Alcoholism 1: 89-93, 1984.

    25)Vermeulen A, Environmental Health Perspectives Supplements 101 (supplement 2): 91-100, 1998.

  5. Alcohol's Effects On Testosterone
    January 15, 2003
    (Alcoholism: Clinical & Experimental Research) -- Even though testosterone is often referred to as a "male sex hormone," it is in actuality common to both genders of animals and humans. The overwhelming majority of research conducted in the past 25 years in both animals and humans has found that alcohol inhibits testosterone secretion. However, a new study in the January issue of Alcoholism: Clinical & Experimental Research has found that acute administration of alcohol can induce a rapid increase in plasma and brain concentrations of testosterone in some rodents.

    "We have demonstrated that there are very different results in the way two different groups of male rats form testosterone after acute administration of alcohol," said Robert H. Purdy, senior staff scientist in the department of neuropharmacology at The Scripps Research Institute and senior author of the study. "These differences in animals may reflect similar individual differences in humans, and provide new insights for understanding individual differences in the behavioral and endocrine pathology associated with alcohol abuse."

    Researchers injected either alcohol or 1,1-dideuteroethanol (2 g alcohol/kg body weight) into the abdominal cavities of two groups of rats, 30 un-operated and 24 adrenalectomized and castrated (ADX/GDX) Wistar males. 1,1-dideuteroethanol is a nonradioactive form of alcohol in which two of the hydrogen atoms on carbon atom #1 of ethanol have been replaced by deuterium atoms, which can then be traced. Study authors used mass spectrometry, a very precise measure of the mass and structure of compounds derived from extracts of tissues and body fluids, to determine both the amount of neuroactive steroids present and the degree of deuterium incorporation into specific neuroactive steroids isolated from brain samples.

    They found that concentrations of testosterone increased fourfold in the frontal cortex and threefold in the plasma of the un-operated rats 30 minutes after alcohol administration. ADX/GDX rats had testosterone concentrations that were only five percent of those found in the un-operated rats following alcohol administration. Tracing the effects of 1,1-dideuteroethanol demonstrated that alcohol oxidation is directly linked to testosterone biosynthesis.

    "Our finding of a direct link between alcohol administration and the level of the neuroactive steroid testosterone in the brain of these experimental animals was unanticipated from prior studies with another species of rats," Purdy said.

    "Although many other studies clearly demonstrate that chronic consumption of high dosages of alcohol appears to be consistently inhibitory and suppresses reproductive function," said Dennis D. Rasmussen, research associate professor in the department of psychiatry at the University of Washington, "this study raises the possibility that episodes of alcohol consumption may also at least temporarily increase testosterone levels, with the direction of the response likely being dependent upon a variety of factors, including dosage and personal characteristics. This particular dosage produced blood alcohol levels and behavioral responses consistent with intoxication. So, alcohol consumption, under at least some conditions and by at least some individuals, may acutely stimulate testosterone levels in the plasma and brain of both males and females and thus could elicit some of the behavioral effects associated with increased testosterone levels, such as increased libido or aggression."

    Rasmussen added that these findings join those of two other studies in which alcohol administration increased plasma testosterone levels in a gender- and dose-dependent manner. "Together these studies are important," he said, "because they illustrate that what has become a largely accepted principal - that alcohol consumption inhibits plasma testosterone levels and reproductive function - is not universally true."

    Rasmussen suggested that future research build upon and add to previous findings regarding alcohol's effects on testosterone. "It would be important to determine whether lower dosages of alcohol, which do not induce rapid pronounced intoxication and ataxia, would also produce the acute increase in testosterone, and whether this response to lower dosages would be consistent across different strains of rats. Also, does tolerance develop with repeated administrations? Does this increase in testosterone occur following elective self-administration of alcohol? Finally, and probably most interesting, what role might the demonstrated changes in testosterone play in behavioral responses to acute ethanol consumption? Are there gender differences in these responses? And, if the responses do occur in females, are they different during different stages of a woman's cycle?"
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  6. Ok good post, but lets take a look at the study.  They administered 2G/kg. In a 80kg person, that would be 160G of alcohol or equivalent to 1120 empty calories.  This doesn't sound so hot in itself, even with the rise of test.  In reality, you probably wouldn't see the same rise in test if doing this every day and surely would screw your liver if you did it for too long.  In addition, 160G alcohol is equal to about 8 shots of liquor @ 80 proof - clearly you would be **** faced and unable to lift weights.  To top it off, their test was after 30 minutes of ingestion...  I didn't read anything about testing after 1 hour, 5 hours, etc.  but I suspect that testosterone was supressed considerably.  The spike they might have received would be useless because who is going down 8 shots and go pump iron?  Futhermore, the mixture was injected into the abdominal and done in rats.  This is not to say that the study is not valid, but as always, we have to take note that rats and humans process things differently.  Lastly, there have been many studies on the supression of testosterone in humans from alcohol consumption.  This is one study and to my knowledge, has yet to be reproduced.

    Just some ideas

    WYD

  7. Well you may have misinterpreted it, these people arent taking shots or drinking to spike their testosterone levels, that never was the intention. Its simply showing the effects of alcohol on testosterone levels in that given window. You can search for hjundreds of articles that say over time alcohol is dtermental to moderate to high testosterone levels and I believe that. I dont drink for a few reasons, this being on, others being the liver damage, cholesterol (LDL) increasement and not to mention all those empty calories.

    On the other hand, regardless of the effects of marijuana on testosterone levels (I dont think anyone has clearly justified smoking pot as being effective), I simply do not smoke marijuana for the lung damage it causes and the lethargy. And people say "Oh, I only smoke pot once every couple of weeks and its not bad if you only smoke occasionally" To that I say, get a ****ing hint, pot has proven to be a gateway drug and IS addictive, so that every couple of weeks turns into once a week, then to every other day, and so on. I used to work with people who smoked every chance they got and I eneded up beating the **** out of one of the lazy bastards for ordering me around to do work his stoned ass couldnt do. Pot smokers ARE generally lazy individuals, and I want no part of that.

  8. Well everyone has their opinions but in terms of pot smokers I tend to agree with YJ. My reason is simple. If you have to illegally purchase a substance that give you a some sort of euphoric feeling, then it just shows you might tend to go further along after the effects of pot begin to diminish (hence the gateway drug reference). To me its the mindset you put yourself in. I can do this with alchohol without the legal ramifications. This is just my opinion of course.

    Now in terms of effects, I think in terms of moderation both can positive AND adverse effects. Its simply a choice you make.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  9. The simple fact is you guys aren't speaking from your PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. ANd even if you are marijuana is not a gateway drug ANYMORE THEN ALCHOL because i have dried other harder drugs and guess what i would prefer marijuan over ANY other drug pretty much. I prefer marijuana for its effects and safety. Leave the b.s media hype to someone who doesn't smoke pot and hasn't tried other drugs to compare.

  10. marijuana's addictiveness is different for everyone. I like marijuana but don't enjoy alchol too much for some reason. however some are just the opposite. so the addictiveness argument proves nothing.


    The motivation issue though is a problem ill agree and thats why im staying away for now even if i had access because as you said one week turns into every day and before you know it your motivation gets shut down fast.

  11. Originally posted by pjorstad
    The simple fact is you guys aren't speaking from your PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. ANd even if you are marijuana is not a gateway drug ANYMORE THEN ALCHOL because i have dried other harder drugs and guess what i would prefer marijuan over ANY other drug pretty much. I prefer marijuana for its effects and safety. Leave the b.s media hype to someone who doesn't smoke pot and hasn't tried other drugs to compare.
    How the hell do you know?

    About the gateway drug, go read my post over. Its the mindset, not the physical aspect. Before you post diffinitive answers for all of us, please no what the $#@! your talking about.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  12. Originally posted by pjorstad
    The simple fact is you guys aren't speaking from your PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.
    Wrong. Ive done pot. Ive drank. Neither are needed or relevant to life. Only hurt you in the long run. Parents were both killed by a drunk driver. Thats personal experience.


    ANd even if you are marijuana is not a gateway drug ANYMORE THEN ALCHOL because i have dried other harder drugs and guess what i would prefer marijuan over ANY other drug pretty much.
    You just contradicted yourself. Earlier you said its different for everyone, so that also would apply here, so throw this argument out.


    I prefer marijuana for its effects and safety. Leave the b.s media hype to someone who doesn't smoke pot and hasn't tried other drugs to compare.
    Actually, I remember hearing 1 in every 3 people smoke pot (personally thought it would be 50% of people but ah well). You're defending pot like its God's gift to the world. It's illegal for a reason. No B.S media hyper for me, I take that with a grain of salt, this is a personal observation.


    marijuana's addictiveness is different for everyone.
    Can you provide a study to back this up? Im pretty sure marijuana has the same physiological effects on everyone.


    I like marijuana but don't enjoy alchol too much for some reason. however some are just the opposite. so the addictiveness argument proves nothing.
    Through all your rambling, you have yet to prove anything really. You can not speak for everyone when you say its not additive for everyone. THC is much like nictotine, or else you wouldnt have so many repeat pot smokers right? You smoke it because you like hte feeling, then you smoke it because you had a ****ty day, then you smoke it because your girlfriend broke up with you, then you smoke it because you're bored, eventually (much like cigarettes) you smoke it on a regualr basis because your life is stressful and you cant live without it (another personal experience, and Ive seen it happen all too many times.)

  13. Can you provide a study to back this up? Im pretty sure marijuana has the same physiological effects on everyone.
    its mostly psychological addiction so like alchol a lot of people don't become addicted to it. I can get addicted to alchol and i hate the stuff just to show you a point. Reason being i have an addictive PERSONALITY so anything that has any euphoria i can get addicted to even if the side effects i don't enjoy. ALthough i find marijuana much easier to get addicted but some people will say the opposite, it all dpends on the person, everyone will preference one over the other.


    Yellojacket i don't smoke pot right now and haven't in a long time. Would I if given easy access right now??? Probably if given the opportunity but i would try to severely limit it as i know that doing it too often would hurt my motivation.

  14. Originally posted by pjorstad


    its mostly psychological addiction so like alchol a lot of people don't become addicted to it.
    Please re-read this. You contradicted yourself all in one sentence.



    ALthough i find marijuana much easier to get addicted but some people will say the opposite


    You said earlier that you couldnt get addicted to it and YOU could get addicted to alcohol much easier.....which is it?

    Yellojacket i don't smoke pot right now.
    It's actually YellowJacket and alcohol has another "o" in it too.

  15. You're also leaving out the fact that marijuana raises blood pressure and speeds up the heart rate. This study is done in older men, I realize that, but these effects are certainly prevelant and can build up over time:

    By Peggy Peck

    March 2, 2000 (San Diego) -- The Woodstock generation is getting some very bad news: Marijuana smoking in middle age may trigger a heart attack in those who still indulge. Marijuana smokers increase their risk of having a heart attack almost five times within one hour of lighting up, according to a study presented here at an American Heart Association (AHA) meeting.

    "This is the first documented link between marijuana and heart attack," says Murray A. Mittleman, MD, PhD, of Beth Israel Deaconess Hospital in Boston.

    Mittleman states that the spike in risk quickly decreases after an hour passes. Pot smokers are twice as likely as nonsmokers to have a heart attack one to two hours after lighting up.

    To put that increased risk in perspective, Mittleman says that the risk of heart attack increases 100 times when a couch potato decides to shovel snow, and it "increase[s] 2.5-fold with sex."

    AHA president Lynn A. Smaha, MD, PhD, says that he will share the findings with colleagues, such as cancer specialists, who may be prescribing medical marijuana to treat nausea and poor appetite. "Any drug has the potential for adverse side effects," says Smaha. He says marijuana should be approached with the same caution as that used with other drugs.

    A third of the patients studied by Mittleman and colleagues were women, and the age range was 20 to 92. The patients were interviewed three days after having a heart attack. The interviews were designed to determine any possible contributing factor during the days and weeks leading up to the heart attack, according to Mittleman.

    Of the nearly 3,900 people Mittleman studied, about 3% reported being regular marijuana users. Thirty-seven said they smoked marijuana within 24 hours of the heart attack, and "nine patients said they used it within an hour of [the onset of symptoms]," says Mittleman.

    Smaha says it is clear that "more research needs to be done to delve into the mechanism at work here." Mittleman agrees and says that his study doesn't provide enough information to determine whether it is marijuana itself that is causing the increased risk or whether it is associated with other elements in the smoke, such as carbon monoxide. He says it is clear that "inhaled fine particles have adverse health effects." But the risk appears to be limited to older marijuana smokers. "Most of the regular marijuana users in the study were in their 40s and 50s and the oldest was 68."

    Mittleman did note some interesting differences between the users and nonusers of marijuana. Those who had smoked marijuana prior to having a heart attack were much younger, with an average age of 44 compared to 62 in the nonsmokers. Also, the marijuana users were less likely to have other risk factors for heart disease, such as high blood pressure and diabetes, and were less likely to have had a history of chest pain prior to the heart attack, says Mittleman.

    The study also shows that frequent marijuana use was certainly not a requirement to be at risk of having a heart attack. Of the marijuana users, 32 used it a few times a month and 40 used marijuana less than once a month, Mittleman says.

    The Marijuana Policy Project (MPP), a Washington-based group that lobbies for laws to decriminalize marijuana use and supports the use of medical marijuana, immediately issued a press release warning that the study could be misinterpreted. MPP spokesperson Chuck Thomas tells us, "Our concern is that some legislator is going to say that marijuana causes heart attacks. That's not what this study says." Six states have decriminalized marijuana use and several others are considering similar laws. Thomas says the risk of adverse events with marijuana use is "comparable to [the] risk associated with legal drugs."

    At a press conference, several reporters asked about the timing of the study. Mittleman says that his team decided to do the study in response to last year's report on marijuana from the Institute of Medicine (IOM). That report concluded that there was no significant risk of heart disease due to marijuana in young marijuana users but urged a study of its effect in older populations. "We just decided to take IOM up on that suggestion."



    Vital Information:

    New research reports that during the first hour after smoking marijuana, one's risk of heart attack jumps nearly five times. By comparison, a sedentary person shoveling snow increases heart attack risk 100 times. Having sexual intercourse would raise heart attack risk in the same person 2.5 times.
    Observers say the apparent risk of heart attack should be considered even in cases where the drug is used medically, such as in cancer patients. Marijuana legalization advocates say they fear legislators will interpret this study as a warning that marijuana causes heart attacks.
    Experts add that researchers still need to figure out what marijuana does to the body and why those changes may increase heart attack risk. Scientists also do not know if the drug itself triggers heart problems or if a component in the smoke is to blame, such as carbon monoxide.


  16. TO sum it up what im saying is alchol and pot are mostly psychological addictions and that it MOSTLY depends on your personal preference of whatdrug you prefer which will get you addicted. However if you have an addictive personality you will get addicted to anything given enough time(me for example)

  17. Originally posted by pjorstad
    TO sum it up what im saying is alchol and pot are mostly psychological addictions and that it MOSTLY depends on your personal preference of whatdrug you prefer which will get you addicted. However if you have an addictive personality you will get addicted to anything given enough time(me for example)
    Any studies to back this up? or is this jsut what you heard?

  18. Anyone know what marijuana does to the mouth/teeth? Oh Oh! I do I do! Pick me!


    This one pretty much kicks the **** out of Pot and alcohol.....

    By Candace Hoffmann



    Jan. 21, 2000 (Lake Worth, Fla.) -- People who smoked pot in the '60s may have something to worry about, if the researchers at the UCLA School of Public Health are correct. They find that head and neck cancer, which often takes 30-40 years to develop, may be related to smoking marijuana. Thus, those who smoked pot in their teens and 20s may just now be feeling its adverse effects.

    Published in the December issue of Cancer Epidemiology, Biomarkers & Prevention, this is the first statistical study to look at the relationship between marijuana smoking and head and neck cancer -- including cancers of the tongue, throat, mouth, and voicebox.

    The investigators compared a group of 173 patients who had cancer of the head and neck with 176 blood donors without cancer. They asked the subjects questions concerning age, lifestyle, alcohol intake, cigarette smoking, and marijuana use. Adjusting for the effects of alcohol and cigarette use, they found a relationship between the frequency of marijuana use and the disease.

    In other words, the number of marijuana cigarettes smoked and the number of years smoked has a direct relationship on the development of these cancers.

    Pot smokers were 2.6 times more at risk for head and neck cancer than their non-pot-smoking counterparts. "If they used more than one [marijuana cigarette] a day, the risk jumped to 4.9 times more than someone who never smoked," lead author Zuo-Feng Zhang, MD, PhD, says Zhang is director of the Cancer Epidemiology Training Program and professor of epidemiology at the UCLA School of Public Health.

    "I think it makes a lot of sense, because we've known for a long time there's a lot more tar in marijuana -- more than cigarette smoke. So people are being exposed to more carcinogens," Patricia Reggio, PhD. Reggio, who has researched marijuana (cannabinoids) for more than 15 years, reviewed the study for WebMD. She is a member and past president of the International Cannabinoid Research Association.

    A genetic defect may put people at even greater risk, Zhang says. The patients were tested for a genetic defect that predisposes to cancer. Those with the defect who smoked marijuana had a 77-fold higher risk for cancer than those without the defect.

    The study also showed that smoking cigarettes increased a person's risk of head and neck cancer. Additionally, alcohol was found to be a risk factor, but it was not as strong as either the genetic risk or cigarette smoking

    However, since the study involved a relatively small number of people, the researchers may not have had enough information on alcohol. David Arnold, MD, from the University of Miami's Sylvester School of Medicine, states that he and his colleagues have found a significant risk of cancer development if alcohol is also used with marijuana smoking. "Nobody knows why that is. People talk about the alcohol making the cells more [receptive] to the [cancer-causing agent in marijuana] so that it can actually get into the genetic level," he explains. Arnold is a professor of otolaryngology, in the division of head and neck surgery at the University of Miami, Sylvester Comprehensive Cancer Center.

    All in all, Zhang, Arnold, and Reggio agree that this is sobering news for people who smoked pot in the past and those who are smoking it now. They should be forthcoming with their doctors about their recreational drug use. "If they have ever used marijuana, they should see their dentists twice a year to be checked for precancerous lesions," Zhang says. "The message is: Anything you smoke is bad."



    Vital Information:

    A new study has linked past marijuana smoking with an increased risk of cancers of the head and neck.
    More tar is found in marijuana than in cigarettes, so marijuana smokers have more exposure to cancer-causing agents.
    For those who have ever smoked marijuana, a dental visit twice a year can catch precancerous lesions.

  19. March 20, 2000 (Baltimore) -- Chronic marijuana smoking may lead to emphysema, a serious disorder in which areas of lung tissue are destroyed and replaced with cysts, according to a paper published in this month's issue of the journal Thorax.

    In the paper, Martin Johnson, MD, of the department of respiratory medicine at Glasgow (Scotland) Royal Infirmary, and colleagues discuss the cases of four men who regularly smoked marijuana but did not smoke much tobacco, and who developed emphysema in the upper areas of their lungs. "Our cases are of particular interest, not just because of their young age, but also because of the unusual pattern of emphysema and the relatively low level of exposure to tobacco smoke compared with that more commonly associated with emphysema," Johnson writes.

    The men ranged in age from 27 to 46. The 27-year-old had smoked several pipes full of marijuana daily for several years, while the other men smoked from two joints per week to three per day. Tobacco use, which is commonly associated with the development of lung cancer and emphysema, was minimal among all three men. All of them developed the cysts, called bullae, in the upper areas of their lungs, but not in the middle or lower areas.

    The researchers were unable to show that marijuana smoking is a cause of emphysema, but demonstrated that it may play an additive role in the development of bullae. "There is a public perception that marijuana smoking has little adverse effect on physical health. ... We hope that our case reports will stimulate further study into ... potential lung toxicity," Johnson writes.

    Jag Khalsa, PhD, a neuropharmacologist with the Center on AIDS and Medical Consequences of Drug Abuse with the National Institute on Drug Abuse, reviewed the paper for WebMD. "There have been anecdotal reports of the development of these kinds of conditions in chronic marijuana users, and I'm not surprised by these findings," he says. "The idea that people who smoke marijuana don't smoke as much as those who smoke cigarettes and are therefore not at risk of health consequences is erroneous." Because pot smokers try to keep the smoke in their lungs longer, and because marijuana is smoked unfiltered, a few joints may be as harmful as a much larger number of tobacco cigarettes, he says.

    Christopher Gallagher, MD, clinical assistant professor at the University of Pennsylvania Cancer Center, says: "In our clinic we have encountered several young marijuana smokers with no history of tobacco smoking or other significant risk factors who were diagnosed with lung cancer or other ... cancers. It's certainly reasonable to suspect there could be an association with the development of emphysema." Though more study is needed, he says, "for the recreational user with a full life expectancy, the potentially harmful effects of marijuana smoking are a legitimate concern."

  20. Now to not bull**** you, I did find an article done the Johns Hopkins Institution that basically said head and neck cancer from Marijuana is a bit over emphasized and may not be as wide spread as researchers previously thought, so be it, the potential is still there whether its as common as you would think. I also find an article that states marijuana is not a gateway drug in the sense that it will lower in effectiveness so much as you are forced to use other drugs, but then I found a study that linked marijuana use to future MDMA and cocaine use, so you decide. Marijuana lowers your sense of judgement (I think we can all agree to that) which leads to you doing things you normally would not do. Like Extacy! Or Xanax! Get what Im saying? I just say a commercial and it stated that 1 in every 3 drivers pulled over and put through a RDT (Roadside Drug Test) came back positive for marijuana. Accidents involving injury has greatly increased from those under the influence of marijuana, gratned I doubt they will ever catch that of alcohol, but thats something I dont want to subject myself to and here's a personal stand:

    If you plan to drink and drink or smoke pot and drive and you crash into me.....you better hope you kill me on the spot.

  21. originally post by shpongled on BB.com (sorry if this is duped)
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...p;pagenumber=6


    Bodybuilders seem to have two primary concerns about smoking marijuana: harming their lungs and hormone changes. That is why I put these first.

    There are two ways that smoking tobacco harms the lungs. The first is increasing the risk of lung cancer. The second is by restricting small airways in the lungs, resulting in increased risk of emphysema, bronchitis, and other respiratory illness. These are also the two main concerns people have with marijuana
    smoke.

    Laboratory Research

    Other than the active ingredient, marijuana smoke and tobacco smoke are pretty much the same. But there are differences:

    1. Marijuana smokers inhale a much smaller volume of smoke than tobacco smokers over time. This has already been discussed.
    2. Nicotine hardens the arteries, increasing the risk of heart disease, and breaks down into N Nitrosamine, a cancer causing agent.
    3. THC is a bronchial dilator. I'll discuss that more below.
    4. Tobacco contains Lead 10 and commonly contains radioactive materials that marijuana does not contain. This could be responsible for up to 90% of the cancer causing effects.
    5. The majority of the tar found in marijuana is in the stem, which isn't smoked.

    Something to note on point #5 is that tar hasn't been shown to be a cancer causing agent in cigarettes. Lung cancer is just as high in people who smoke low tar cigarettes, and cigarettes contain many carcinogens that are probably responsible.

    Petri dishes containing THC, tobacco, marijuana smoke, and tobacco smoke have all been analyzed. All four of them cause the cellular changes associated with cancer except pure THC (1).

    Empirical Research

    I'll compare the risk of various ailments for non-smokers, tobacco smokers, and marijuana smokers from the given empirical studies.

    Bronchitis: Non-smokers are the least likely to develop it, followed by marijuana smokers, and then tobacco smokers. People who smoke marijuana and tobacco have the same incidence of bronchitis as those who smoke tobacco alone (2). Also, smoking marijuana daily increases your risk of a minor respiratory ailment by 3% (3). This would mean that smoking on the weekend would have a negligible effect.

    Emphysema and asthma: Here's the good news. Both of these ailments are due to obstruction of the small airways in the lungs. THC, like an asthma inhaler, causes the small airways to expand, allowing in the clearance of smoke and dirt. Anybody who's had experience with marijuana knows the coughing goes away within the first 5 to 10 minutes. Marijuana's effects peak 30 minuts after smoking it.

    There are multiple studies to back this up. The first was a UCLA report, from a group of researchers that studies nonsmokers, marijuana smokers, tobacco smokers, and smokers of both substances from 1983-1997. The marijuana smokers were heavy smokers, at a minimum of 3-4 joints a day for 15 years. Tobacco smokers showed obstruction of the lung's small airways. However, when the small airway obstruction of marijuana smokers was measured (by measuring the volume of air they can expel in one second), it was the same as with nonsmokers. What's more, users of both substances showed less of a small airway obstruction than tobacco smokers, implying that the marijuana somehow reduced the obstructions (either that, or smokers of marijuana tend to smoke less cigarettes) (4). A 19 year long study in Australia of 268 marijuana smokers (daily to weekly basis) also showed that they had a lower prevalence of emphysema and asthma than the general population (5).

    Lung cancer: There was a study done in the 70's that suggested that marijuana had higher levels than tobacco of benzopyrene, a cancer-causing agent. That is why you commonly hear "marijuana is more likely to cause cancer/has more tar." Studies since then have shown that tobacco actually has higher benzopyrene content, but in all likelihood it just depends on the plant source (6).

    There is also a study showing long-term heavy marijuana smokers to have a higher quantity of precancerous cells. However, there are absolutely no cases of lung cancer that have been linked to marijuana as a primary factor. In fact, the incidence of lung cancer in marijuana-only smokers is the same as in the general population.

    The primary cause of lung cancer is cigarette smoking (which causes about 85% of lung cancer cases) (7). The primary risk among non-smokers is second-hand smoke (about 1.5% of lung cancer cases) (8).

    Conclusion

    Marijuana may increase the risk of bronchitis or infection, may decrease the risk of emphysema and asthma, and has a very small (statistically insignificant) chance of increasing lung cancer.

    Note that using a vaporizer or bong has not been shown to decrease the amount of plant matter to THC ratio. Bongs filter out just as much THC as they do other substances (although THC is not water soluble, many of the other substances in marijuana aren't as well.) With a vaporizer, you are getting the same smoke, just a much larger amount. The primary reason that different methods result in different highs is they deliver different amounts of THC at different speeds. Just as if you take two caffeine pills, the effects will be much different than if you take one and then another an hour later, and that will be different than taking half of one every hour. Since the effects of marijuana come almost immediately it is much more noticable. Some methods result in harsher smoke because the closer the plant is to you, the hotter the smoke will be when inhaled.

    That given, there are some methods to greatly reduce the risk of respiratory problems:

    1. Do not hold the smoke in. This increases the psychoactive effects marginally at best and significantly increases possible damage to your lungs.
    2. Get high quality marijuana. You will inhale less plant matter for the same amount of THC, which is benign.
    3. Also, try to find marijuana that was grown by a friend or someone you can trust. This reduces the likelihood of pesticides that will hurt your lungs.
    4. Consider eating the marijuana. Note that the high is very different (for reasons discussed above); it is much longer lasting and panic reactions and paranoia are much more common.
    5. Limit your intake to one day a week.
    6. Don't smoke cigarettes. Hopefully, that is obvious.

    Thank you for your time.

    David

    Sources:
    1. Leuchtenberger, C., "Effects of Marijuana (Cannabis) Smoke on Cellular Biochemistry of In Vitro Test Systems," p.177-224 in Fehr, K.O. and Kalant, K. (eds), Cannabis and Health Hazards, Toronto: Addiction Research Foundation (1983).
    2. Turner, Carlton E., The Marijuana Controversy, Rockville, MD: American Council for Drug Education (1981).
    3. Plen, M.R., "Health Care Use by Frequent Marijuana Smokers Who Do Not Smoke Tobacco," Western Journal of Medicine 158, p.596-601 (1993).
    4. Tashkin, D.P., "Heavy Habitual Marijuan Smoking Does Not Cause an Accelerated Decline in FEV1 With Age," American Journal of Respiratory and Critical Care Medicine 155, p.141-48 (1997).
    5. Didcott, P. et al., Long-Term Cannabis Users on the New South Wales North Coast, Canberra: Australian Government Publishing Service (1997).
    6. Harvey, R.G., Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons: Chemistry and Carcinogenicity, Cambridge: Oxford University Press (1991).
    7. Surgeon General. Reducing the Health Consequences of Smoking: 25 Years of Progress. Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1989.
    8. National Cancer Institute of Canada. Canadian Cancer Statistics 2000. Toronto, Canada, 2000.
    (Note: Sources are only given when I have them handy. If you want further sources on a certain point, I will be happy to find them. Also note that many of my sources come from anti-drug literature).


  22. I just say a commercial and it stated that 1 in every 3 drivers pulled over and put through a RDT (Roadside Drug Test) came back positive for marijuana.




    Woopidty doo. I don't listen to those commercials they are all b.s. You know for a Steroid user you shouldn't either, what are you gonna do start listening to the anti-steroid commericals if they start coming on t.v?? Have you ever thought that maybe a lot of those people who were tested and found to have marijuana also had alchol in their system??? I bet you a lot more then you think.


  23.  I also find an article that states marijuana is not a gateway drug in the sense that it will lower in effectiveness so much as you are forced to use other drugs, but then I found a study that linked marijuana use to future MDMA and cocaine use, so you decide.
    Its pretty subjective... and the same could be said about alcohol, cigarettes, etc...  I think the corelation is pretty absurd...


    Marijuana lowers your sense of judgement (I think we can all agree to that) which leads to you doing things you normally would not do. Like Extacy! Or Xanax! Get what Im saying?


    no, YJ, I dont... I have a great deal of respect for your opinions and knowledge... but I must disagree... i think saying something like that is exactly like saying "Steroids make people go nuts and hurt people". Its all in the hands of the user... if you expect (or subconsciously want) to go into roid rage, and you pop some gear... guess what? odds are great that you will go off on someone... I think the same is there with drinkers and pot smokers... and frankly, every pot smoker I know (myself included) is more likely to sit on the couch playing video games than go out and raise hell... but in all fairness, I dont know EVERY pot smoker in the world.. so my experience may be unique...

    There HAS to be some personal accountability.

    I also think its incredibly wrong to compare marijuana to Exctasy.. i dont know what Xanax is, so I cant comment on that... but then again.. this is my own opinion... certainly not the only view...

  24. 1. Marijuana smokers inhale a much smaller volume of smoke than tobacco smokers over time. This has already been discussed.
    First off, Im not on a crusade to stop everyone from smoking pot, do what you gotta do, we all have our interests, I like to bodybuild


    But I dont agree with this. This may have been the case in the 80's or early 90's, but I think new research (which, Im going after now) will show that smoking pot these days has increased dramatically and the rate at which it is smoked has increased just as much. People are smoking pot like they would smoke cigarettes, so this is merely one man's opinion. And I went and ahead and checked his resources also and the primary informatin he copied word for word are from sites that seemingly treat marijuana like water. They note all of the positive benefits of smoking pot (oxymoron) and I guess they just forgot to list the negative ones, oops.



    2. Nicotine hardens the arteries, increasing the risk of heart disease, and breaks down into N Nitrosamine, a cancer causing agent.
    True. But how many pot smokers do you know who also smoke cigarettes?? I know a ****load. In fact, the same John Hopkins Journal says people who are physically addicted to marijuana actually take up cigarette smoking to relieve the stress because of the expense of marijunana in some places and the legality issues behind purchasing pot. So they go hand in hand in my opinion.


    4. Tobacco contains Lead 10 and commonly contains radioactive materials that marijuana does not contain.
    So that makes marijuana good right?


    5. The majority of the tar found in marijuana is in the stem, which isn't smoked.
    How does this guy know? Now hes going to give lessons on how to smoke pot? Guess he's never taken on to the head or put the end of a blunt in to a bong and smoked that huh? Tool box.


    Bronchitis: Non-smokers are the least likely to develop it, followed by marijuana smokers.
    No ****. But there is that potential there to develope this, who gives a **** if its lower than cigarettes, its still there.

    Also, smoking marijuana daily increases your risk of a minor respiratory ailment by 3% (3).

    Wait....didnt he say above the volume of smoke is much less for those who smoke pot as opposed to cigarettes? Now hes talking about smoking pot everyday? Oh god....



    Marijuana may increase the risk of bronchitis or infection, may decrease the risk of emphysema and asthma, and has a very small (statistically insignificant) chance of increasing lung cancer.
    Gonna need to see those statistics before you talk about them.


    1. Do not hold the smoke in. This increases the psychoactive effects marginally at best and significantly increases possible damage to your lungs.


    Awww....now what fun is that??

    2. Get high quality marijuana.


    High quality aye? Boy, I'll have to wait until that goes on sell at Walmart, that **** is expensive. This guy is a total tool box. Pot is illegal dumbass.....I dont think you have much of a choice, there's not a catalog to choose out of. This must be his simple guide to smoking pot.

    3. Also, try to find marijuana that was grown by a friend or someone you can trust. This reduces the likelihood of pesticides that will hurt your lungs.
    Or better yet, go buy you some seeds and start a greenhouse in your back yard!

    4. Consider eating the marijuana.
    Um yea. Im not even touching this one.

    5. Limit your intake to one day a week.
    But you said earlier if you smoke it everyday and it will lower your risk of a minor respiratory ailment by 3%.... so there goes that argument and massive contradiction.

    6. Don't smoke cigarettes. Hopefully, that is obvious.
    Oh boy, I think this guy was stoned out of his mind when he wrote this.

  25. Originally posted by pjorstad


    Woopidty doo. I don't listen to those commercials they are all b.s.
    Umm....statistics are BS huh? Can I get an invitation to the dream world you live in? You are very clueless my friend and you've proved it in this thread.

    You know for a Steroid user you shouldn't either, what are you gonna do start listening to the anti-steroid commericals if they start coming on t.v??
    I use steriods? Oh. Steriods are illegal my friend, I wouldnt do such a thing and if I did, I wouldnt announce it on the internet much like you have. And this isnt about steriods, this is about pot and my credibility or what I do in my spare time is not on trial here. So stay on topic or get the **** out.


    Have you ever thought that maybe a lot of those people who were tested and found to have marijuana also had alchol in their system??? I bet you a lot more then you think.
    Very possible. So that makes it acceptable? or better? No, Im anti-alcohol and pot my friend.
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