Link you guys need to check out.. about the military draft
- 05-28-2004, 11:27 PM
Link you guys need to check out.. about the military draft
You really need to do some writing on this one..
- 05-29-2004, 12:05 AM
Thanks for that heads up Matt, I cannot believe this is the first I've heard of this...
I have no problem goin' to fight for this country if it does (and it looks like it will) come to this. However, the new deals they made with Canada about the "smart-border" agreement blows IMHO. I don't have much problem with the school one, but the border control is sooooo ****ing dumb and just not fair..
I look at it like this....We, the US have all of these immigrants comin' into our country every day...we have all this fairness **** that anybody can just come in and make themselves at home...But when It comes down to us wanting to leave, they pull this ****....thats ludicrous...
It's not even the reason they're doing it that bothers me, its the actual comparision like I said above pertaining to how the gov't is doing these things...
Also, has anybody heard that when the USA wins events in the Olympics that they don't want us to wave our flags cuz they don't want us to think that we're just "showing off".......That makes my blood boil...Who the **** are they to say what we do in things like this?? It's ridiculous....
We earned the right to wave our flags....we've earned the right to feel good about our way of life...we've earned the right to do what we please to do....this makes me soooo friggin' sick in the stomach....Now, what was that about freedom?? Yeah, my ass....this country is turning into a nation that cares WAY too much about what others think about us.....that is going to get us into a lot of trouble....
Remember, nations rise and nations fall....whats the difference in this case?? Our leaders need to take a step back and look at wtf they're doing man...this will be the fall of our beautiful country...
- 05-29-2004, 12:14 AM
you are very right there J.. and I didn't mind me serving in the Army but I got a choice about it..and I want my kids to have that choice
05-29-2004, 02:20 AM
That's some amazing bull****. I don't like where the gov't is headed we need to slap them on the face and call them out for these actions. I'd like to choose whether or not I'd wanna fight for Bush's greedy war in Iraq. **** like that is very anti-freedom. I'm amazed they didn't work a deal with Mexico. BTW, good point about immigrants Jergo, they can come in and reap the benefits, but are they even requested to fight for this country ?
BTW, I have heard of that "no flag waving" in a sport history flag. That's just stupid, sports should never mix with politics, athletes earn the right to wave their flag after they win.
05-29-2004, 02:48 AM
05-29-2004, 04:06 AM
If they are going to or want to do this there should be a debate about it.
There are 10,000 illegal aliens coming over the boarder every day. That is 3, 650,000 a year. After what happened on 9-11 are you trying to tell me that almost 4 million illegal aliens aren't a security threat? Just say that 5 % are coming from the middle east and are terrorist or have terrorist ties. That's 182,500 terrorist a year!!!!!!! Hell even 2.5 % would be 90000. There were only 12 terrorists but probably more on 9-11. Image what kind of chaos 100,000 could do. Yet President Bush wants to legalize people who break the law and come over illegally. It makes the people who follow the rules look like idiots. It's going to make us look like idiots for not shutting down the boarder and completely over hauling the INS when something happens that's worse than 9-11. The INS renewed the terrorists visas after 9-11 happened!!!!!I look at it like this....We, the US have all of these immigrants coming into our country every day...we have all this fairness **** that anybody can just come in and make themselves at home...But when It comes down to us wanting to leave, they pull this ****....that's ludicrous...
If he wants to legalize them they can enlist in the military for citizenship. Someone was talking about this on a radio show and I guess they don't have to enlist if they are from another country. On top of that we were told that Iraq presented a clear and present danger to the United States. Now no one seems to remember that and it's about freedom for the Iraqi people.
05-29-2004, 09:14 AM
05-29-2004, 10:08 AM
That's what I keep saying, but I was starting to think I was alone.Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla
05-29-2004, 11:33 AM
05-29-2004, 02:07 PM
I didn't say you said that. The question wasn't directed towards you. It was just a rhetorical one.What are you talking about?? Where did I say that??
05-29-2004, 04:16 PM
Oh, well then at ease soldier....LOL my bad bro...Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla
I'm still thinking about just signing up and requesting to get put on the front line. I can't help but feel guilty about living my life while my brothers and sisters are dying in that big ****ing sand box....
What makes me any better off than them?? OTOH, if I'm going over there to fight then I'd better be fighting for a cause. I'd hate to get shot at all the while Bush decides that he's had enough and pulls out or does something else retarded...
05-29-2004, 11:44 PM
05-30-2004, 12:37 AM
Damn. This is intresting. How many of you are under 26? Yeah we'll see how many people support the war, when their children have to go fight it. And now they can't use college or leave for Canada. I remember my Grandfather saying he got called up in WWII and he was in his late 30's with two kids. I wonder how far they'll go, if it even gets out of committe.
Last edited by LCSULLA; 05-30-2004 at 01:44 AM.
05-30-2004, 01:57 AM
05-30-2004, 04:47 AM
What's the cause? The fist reason was a good cause. Iraq was a threat to us. Sadam was trying to acquire or had acquired WMD. What's the cause now? Is it giving freedom to people in a place that haven't wanted it for 2000 years? Is it setting up a democracy in a place where everything is going to go to hell the minute we pull out?What makes me any better off than them?? OTOH, if I'm going over there to fight then I'd better be fighting for a cause. I'd hate to get shot at all the while Bush decides that he's had enough and pulls out or does something else retarded...
I personally would not sacrifice someone's son, daughter, father , or mother for an Iraqi citizen. IMO if you going to ask one of our solders to sacrifice his life there better be a damn good reason. After 9-11 we should have shut down the boarder, completely over hauled the INS, given local law enforcement the power to deport people, keep a close eye on people that were here on visas from middle eastern counties, fired the head of the CIA and FBI, any one flying who has the name Mohamed should be checked out and hired professionals for airport security. We are doing non of this. I flew a year ago and they were randomly checking people. I was lucky enough to be one of them. There was a 50 year old white guy, a 16 year old girl, a twenty year old college student, a grand ma and me ( I am so pasty white I burn being in the sun for 20 minutes). Am I the only one who sees something wrong with this? There is about a 99.9999999% chance that nun of us were the type of people to blow up a plane. Don't profile middle eastern men though, that's racial profiling and every one knows racial profiling isn't politically correct. It makes much more sense to check out someone's grand mother, invade countries, and do absolutly nothing to solve what cause the problem in the first place.
05-30-2004, 06:53 AM
I flew right after 9/11 and they pulled everybody who looked even slightly middle eastern. There was a young black couple right behind me, and the guy said right after we boarded "Man I have never be so glad to be black." But soon the media heard that many airlines were doing this and the fallout stopped the airlines from doing it, and now they just started pulling randomly. And I agree, I would love for the borders to be harder to cross. But they fact we need the illegals, esp from Mexico. If they stopped coming who would cook your food, clean your hotel room and every other crap job out there. I work in the food industry and they do all the cooking and cleaning. Plus alot (not all) pay taxes. That billions of government dollars down the drain if they stop letting in illegals.
ANd i looked at another site and it said the House bill only had 13 cosponsers and the Senate had none. So it seems this thing will never get off the ground. Since usually every congressmen and his mother signs on the popular bills and ones like this would be very unpopular with the country.
Last edited by LCSULLA; 05-30-2004 at 07:13 AM.
05-31-2004, 01:18 AM
The notion that we need illegal immigrants here is completely a false one. When you are flooded with Illegal aliens it drives down the wages of everyone else because they are willing to do the work for much less. What will happen is no one will want to do certain jobs at the prices that they were paying the illegals, so they will have to raise the wages to the point where people are willing to do it. It is also completely false that it will cost our government billions if we get rid of them. The first thing they do when they get here is to go on welfare (there was a story about this in Newsweek where they were all going to a certain town because the welfare system in the town was so good. Long story short, the town is going bankrupt), we have to pay for their health care when they go to the emergence room, we have to pay for their children to go to school, we have to pay when they go to prison and when they go through the legal system. Many times they send a good chunk of the money they make (if they are working) back to the countries they are from so the local economies don't benefit from them either. The fact is illegal aliens cost us money. They also take a toll on the educational system. If the children of illegal aliens flood the school system it costs the town money as well. In the town in the Newsweek article the education system in the town was also in shambles because they couldn't handle all the kids coming in. It also forces the school to hire ESL teachers. Another aspect to this is that for some reason they don't feel the need to learn English. This in turn dumbs down and slows down the pace of the classes they are in. So they kids who can speak English education suffers because of this.But they fact we need the illegals, esp from Mexico. If they stopped coming who would cook your food, clean your hotel room and every other crap job out there. I work in the food industry and they do all the cooking and cleaning. Plus alot (not all) pay taxes. That billions of government dollars down the drain if they stop letting in illegals.
Seeing how they don't have social security numbers, it is more likely that if they are working that they are getting paid under the table. In the left coast for example the illegals wait at a certain place and day laborers pick them up. They get paid for the day under the table. On top of that, who cares if they are paying taxes or not? That isn't the issue. The fact is they are breaking the laws of the United States. The are many immigrants who are following our laws and the process to come in to this country legally. Why don't the rules apply to the people who are going to contribute the least to this country? Why should they get a free pass? Instead we should be letting in the people who would contribute the most.Plus alot (not all) pay taxes.
05-31-2004, 01:32 AM
05-31-2004, 02:31 AM
05-31-2004, 07:53 AM
at the current rate of causalities.. there is projected to be a significant reduction in troop strengths.. that and the fact that we are attempting to fight 2 wars at the same time. Everyone has kinda forgotten about Afghanistan but it is still not up and running and we are having more problems there as of late
05-31-2004, 01:22 PM
I totally agree with everything VG has had to say. I am proud to be an American, and I've always said that if needed, I would go to war. But the more and more I think of it, I'm wondering why? I understand that my American brothers and sisters are being killed, but I just don't see a justified reason for us to be over there still. We took out Saddam, now lets get the **** out. Like VG said, as soon we leave things will change for the worst again. Jergo, you are a better man and American citizen than I am..call me a coward if you want, but I think I'm with Colossus on this one.
05-31-2004, 03:10 PM
Nah man, I hear what you're saying. But the reason we're still over there is because of security reasons. The number one reason that the public was told why we're going to war is for the liberation of the Iraqi people. After a year we still haven't liberated them due to republican guard troops still fighting in small groups as well as Saddam followers, activists, etc....Originally Posted by DieTrying
I think that if the country needs people to help defend our way-of-life then no matter how stupid people may think it is, IMO its still our duty to defend our country....you have your own opinion, thats fine man...this is America and thats what this country is about...
06-03-2004, 01:38 AM
****in' a on that. Id state my opinion by VG pretty much nailed it so Ill save the bandwidth. Our government better get its head out of its ass, because this great nation of ours is going to hell in the politically correct handbasket faster than I ever thought it would. Sometimes, you just have to kick ass and take names, and **** what everyone else thinks.IMO if you going to ask one of our solders to sacrifice his life there better be a damn good reason
06-03-2004, 01:41 AM
06-03-2004, 01:55 AM
Clinton significantly cut military personnel under his presidency. Then were have troops stationed every where and are fighting two wars so our military is spread pretty thin right now. There was a military guy ( I forget his name) who said that we need at least 200,000 troops on the ground in Iraq in order to be successful. I think we have about half of that.wait...why would we need a draft...aren't current troop numbers sufficient? or am i just misled?
06-03-2004, 02:10 AM
The problem is Iraq never really had anything close to a democracy and they aren't really a threat to us. I think the closest one was before Sadam and it didn't last too long. So if we waste our time, money, and American lives to set up a government , it's more likely than going to fall apart unless we occupy Iraq indefinitely. Even then there are still going to be bombs and snipers talking shots at our troops and members of the government. I guess my position they said there were WMDs and they either weren't there to begin with aren't there now. The government can't remain stable so why waste our time, money, and most importantly peoples lives. I believe the government has a great responsibility to our troops and members of our troops families to make sure that they keep them as safe as possible and that troops should only have to make the ultimate scarifies only when absolutely necessary. So if a bunch of terrorist are shooting at us from a "holy place" instead of being politically correct and worrying what the world thinks or if we are going to hurt someone's feelings by destroying a holy place, we shouldn't think twice about turning it into a crater.I think that if the country needs people to help defend our way-of-life then no matter how stupid people may think it is, IMO its still our duty to defend our country....you have your own opinion, thats fine man...this is America and thats what this country is about...
06-03-2004, 11:37 AM
What??...oh so 9/11 wasn't a threat to us?? If you really think that Saddam and OBL aren't fighting the same war, then you're truly naive...Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla
Umm...there have been findings of materials that are used in the manufacturing of WMD...I guess my position they said there were WMDs and they either weren't there to begin with aren't there now.
Oh, so 9/11, all the terror attacks, this stupid scale that Tom Ridge uses for the "heightened terror alert" among other things that I could ramble on about but choose not to isn't sufficient enough reason to take these bastards out??I believe the government has a great responsibility to our troops and members of our troops families to make sure that they keep them as safe as possible and that troops should only have to make the ultimate scarifies only when absolutely necessary.
First you say that we shouldn't be at war unless its absoultely necessary, but then go on to say that we should just nuke the place?? So which is it?? Nah man, it doesn't work like that....You gotta first try out less destructive ways and then at your last resort do what you gotta do with WMD....So if a bunch of terrorist are shooting at us from a "holy place" instead of being politically correct and worrying what the world thinks or if we are going to hurt someone's feelings by destroying a holy place, we shouldn't think twice about turning it into a crater.
I don't like the way things are being done for the most part, but you gotta stand behind your country if things and others are threatening it....
06-07-2004, 02:23 AM
I heard about this bill a while ago.
It has about zero chance of passage.
I'd also like to point out that the article says that the administration is trying to get this legislation passed, which seems to imply that Bush wants the draft, but I'd like to point out that the two sponsors of the bills, Sen. Hollings of SC, and Rep. Rangel of NY, are both Democrats, as are all of the cosponsors of the House version. Bush has nothing to do with this whatsoever.
The aticle linked to above actually tries to mislead people into thinking this is a Republican idea, by saying the administration wants the draft and failing to mention the names of the sponsors or the fact that they are Democrats.
06-07-2004, 03:39 AM
First of all I didn't say any thing about 9/11 not being a threat. I didn't say anything about Sadam and OBL not fighting the same war either . There has been several stories in the news about an Iraq/ Al Qeda link. There is also some circumstantial evidence that Sadam might have supplied the 9-11 terrorist with Anthrax. What I said was that in it's current situation Iraq isn't a threat to us. With the news that North Korea sending nuclear materials to another middle eastern country I consider that more of a threat to America than Iraq is right now.What??...oh so 9/11 wasn't a threat to us?? If you really think that Saddam and OBL aren't fighting the same war, then you're truly naive...
There is 100 other thing that our government should of done before invading another country. First of all, the 9-11 terrorists didn't fly a plane over here from Iraq or Afghanistan. They were all ready inside the united states. Second our own intelligence agents failed to prevent it. So the cause of 9-11 was primarily a problem with our owns country's security on our airlines, problems with the INS, and a break down of our intelligence agencies. We have not addressed any of these problems. We should have fired the heads of the CIA and FBI right after 9-11. We should have shut down the borders. We haven't done this in fact we want to legalize the people breaking the laws by coming over the boarders. We needed to completely over haul the INS. After 9-11 they renewed the terrorist visas. (that is how inept they are), We haven't done anything with that. With airport security instead of getting security professionals in there they just federalized the inept non English speaking airport employees. All the terrorist have been middle eastern yet in the current PC atmosphere of racial profiling is wrong they check 80 year old grandmothers instead of someone with the name Omar. That is for starters what we should of done.Oh, so 9/11, all the terror attacks, this stupid scale that Tom Ridge uses for the "heightened terror alert" among other things that I could ramble on about but choose not to isn't sufficient enough reason to take these bastards out??
Another problem I see is Al quada is not a government. It isn't structured like a government. This means that conventional warfare will not be as effective with them as it was in say world war two. In WW2 you knock out the central government the war is over. With Al queda you have cells operating independently and has no central structure. So if we kill Bin Laden and a bunch of leaders the cells are still there and most likely someone is going to step up and take their places. Where as in WW2 you kill hilter the war is over. (To over simplify things.)
The problem is we are at war now. My position is since we are now there we should fight the war to win and protecting Americans solders should be our first priority. So if we have the choice of sending 250 troops in to a hostile town and let the locals take pot shots at them or turn the town into a parking then send the solders in. I will choose to turn the place into a parking every single time. If we continue to let people shoot at us from a church and not allow our troops to fight back because the church is a holy place, I think we should pull out. In all honestly I think this war is unwinable unless we change our tactics.First you say that we shouldn't be at war unless its absoultely necessary, but then go on to say that we should just nuke the place?? So which is it?? Nah man, it doesn't work like that....You gotta first try out less destructive ways and then at your last resort do what you gotta do with WMD....
I don't like the way things are being done for the most part, but you gotta stand behind your country if things and others are threatening it....
Ok lets say you have the option of sending in 500 troops into a hostile city. The enemy is mixed in with the population and your troops can't tell the difference between them. It is a city which means there are many tall buildings and is likely snipers will be firing at your troops. There is a 50% mortality rate for your troops. Do you bomb the city which will significantly increase the mortality rate and then send your troops in or do you let 250 troops die?Nah man, it doesn't work like that....You gotta first try out less destructive ways and then at your last resort do what you gotta do with WMD....
What if there were WMDs and Sadam shipped them to Syria? Then Syria becomes the threat not Iraq. What if the WMDs were in Syria but the Bush administration didn't want to go in there because of all the political pressure they were under over Iraq. What if the WMDs used to be in Syria are now in the hands of different terrorists cells and some of them are head over here?Umm...there have been findings of materials that are used in the manufacturing of WMD...
06-07-2004, 03:52 AM
You also missed my first point was the war in Iraq has changed from originally being a clear and present danger to the united states to the purpose of the war to liberate Iraq. Seeing that Iraq never had democracy there, do you think it's worth sacrificing lives to implement a government that is bound to fail? If we can't or won't eliminate the people setting off bombs and sniping our troops, then we won't be able to stop them from doing that to it's own government officials, military, and police.Quote:
Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla
The problem is Iraq never really had anything close to a democracy and they aren't really a threat to us.
What??...oh so 9/11 wasn't a threat to us?? If you really think that Saddam and OBL aren't fighting the same war, then you're truly naive...
Going to war to protect America is one thing going to war to liberate someone else's country is another.
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