Link you guys need to check out.. about the military draft

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    Link you guys need to check out.. about the military draft


    http://www.congress.org/congressorg/...ua_congressorg

    You really need to do some writing on this one..

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    Thanks for that heads up Matt, I cannot believe this is the first I've heard of this...

    I have no problem goin' to fight for this country if it does (and it looks like it will) come to this. However, the new deals they made with Canada about the "smart-border" agreement blows IMHO. I don't have much problem with the school one, but the border control is sooooo ****ing dumb and just not fair..

    I look at it like this....We, the US have all of these immigrants comin' into our country every day...we have all this fairness **** that anybody can just come in and make themselves at home...But when It comes down to us wanting to leave, they pull this ****....thats ludicrous...

    It's not even the reason they're doing it that bothers me, its the actual comparision like I said above pertaining to how the gov't is doing these things...

    Also, has anybody heard that when the USA wins events in the Olympics that they don't want us to wave our flags cuz they don't want us to think that we're just "showing off".......That makes my blood boil...Who the **** are they to say what we do in things like this?? It's ridiculous....

    We earned the right to wave our flags....we've earned the right to feel good about our way of life...we've earned the right to do what we please to do....this makes me soooo friggin' sick in the stomach....Now, what was that about freedom?? Yeah, my ass....this country is turning into a nation that cares WAY too much about what others think about us.....that is going to get us into a lot of trouble....

    Remember, nations rise and nations fall....whats the difference in this case?? Our leaders need to take a step back and look at wtf they're doing man...this will be the fall of our beautiful country...
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    you are very right there J.. and I didn't mind me serving in the Army but I got a choice about it..and I want my kids to have that choice
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    That's some amazing bull****. I don't like where the gov't is headed we need to slap them on the face and call them out for these actions. I'd like to choose whether or not I'd wanna fight for Bush's greedy war in Iraq. **** like that is very anti-freedom. I'm amazed they didn't work a deal with Mexico. BTW, good point about immigrants Jergo, they can come in and reap the benefits, but are they even requested to fight for this country ?

    BTW, I have heard of that "no flag waving" in a sport history flag. That's just stupid, sports should never mix with politics, athletes earn the right to wave their flag after they win.
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    they'll never take me alive!!!!!!
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    If they are going to or want to do this there should be a debate about it.
    I look at it like this....We, the US have all of these immigrants coming into our country every day...we have all this fairness **** that anybody can just come in and make themselves at home...But when It comes down to us wanting to leave, they pull this ****....that's ludicrous...
    There are 10,000 illegal aliens coming over the boarder every day. That is 3, 650,000 a year. After what happened on 9-11 are you trying to tell me that almost 4 million illegal aliens aren't a security threat? Just say that 5 % are coming from the middle east and are terrorist or have terrorist ties. That's 182,500 terrorist a year!!!!!!! Hell even 2.5 % would be 90000. There were only 12 terrorists but probably more on 9-11. Image what kind of chaos 100,000 could do. Yet President Bush wants to legalize people who break the law and come over illegally. It makes the people who follow the rules look like idiots. It's going to make us look like idiots for not shutting down the boarder and completely over hauling the INS when something happens that's worse than 9-11. The INS renewed the terrorists visas after 9-11 happened!!!!!
    If he wants to legalize them they can enlist in the military for citizenship. Someone was talking about this on a radio show and I guess they don't have to enlist if they are from another country. On top of that we were told that Iraq presented a clear and present danger to the United States. Now no one seems to remember that and it's about freedom for the Iraqi people.
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    Good point VG... it is total bs.. make sure you do write your Congressmen
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla
    There are 10,000 illegal aliens coming over the boarder every day. That is 3, 650,000 a year. After what happened on 9-11 are you trying to tell me that almost 4 million illegal aliens aren't a security threat? Just say that 5 % are coming from the middle east and are terrorist or have terrorist ties. That's 182,500 terrorist a year!!!!!!! Hell even 2.5 % would be 90000. There were only 12 terrorists but probably more on 9-11. Image what kind of chaos 100,000 could do. Yet President Bush wants to legalize people who break the law and come over illegally. It makes the people who follow the rules look like idiots. It's going to make us look like idiots for not shutting down the boarder and completely over hauling the INS when something happens that's worse than 9-11. The INS renewed the terrorists visas after 9-11 happened!!!!!
    If he wants to legalize them they can enlist in the military for citizenship. Someone was talking about this on a radio show and I guess they don't have to enlist if they are from another country. On top of that we were told that Iraq presented a clear and present danger to the United States. Now no one seems to remember that and it's about freedom for the Iraqi people.
    That's what I keep saying, but I was starting to think I was alone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla
    There are 10,000 illegal aliens coming over the boarder every day. That is 3, 650,000 a year. After what happened on 9-11 are you trying to tell me that almost 4 million illegal aliens aren't a security threat?
    What are you talkin' about?? Where did I say that??
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    What are you talking about?? Where did I say that??
    I didn't say you said that. The question wasn't directed towards you. It was just a rhetorical one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla
    I didn't say you said that. The question wasn't directed towards you. It was just a rhetorical one.
    Oh, well then at ease soldier....LOL my bad bro...

    I'm still thinking about just signing up and requesting to get put on the front line. I can't help but feel guilty about living my life while my brothers and sisters are dying in that big ****ing sand box....

    What makes me any better off than them?? OTOH, if I'm going over there to fight then I'd better be fighting for a cause. I'd hate to get shot at all the while Bush decides that he's had enough and pulls out or does something else retarded...
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    God help us all.
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    Damn. This is intresting. How many of you are under 26? Yeah we'll see how many people support the war, when their children have to go fight it. And now they can't use college or leave for Canada. I remember my Grandfather saying he got called up in WWII and he was in his late 30's with two kids. I wonder how far they'll go, if it even gets out of committe.
    Last edited by LCSULLA; 05-30-2004 at 01:44 AM.
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    I think now that the cutoff is 33.. but you are right how far would it go?
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    What makes me any better off than them?? OTOH, if I'm going over there to fight then I'd better be fighting for a cause. I'd hate to get shot at all the while Bush decides that he's had enough and pulls out or does something else retarded...
    What's the cause? The fist reason was a good cause. Iraq was a threat to us. Sadam was trying to acquire or had acquired WMD. What's the cause now? Is it giving freedom to people in a place that haven't wanted it for 2000 years? Is it setting up a democracy in a place where everything is going to go to hell the minute we pull out?
    I personally would not sacrifice someone's son, daughter, father , or mother for an Iraqi citizen. IMO if you going to ask one of our solders to sacrifice his life there better be a damn good reason. After 9-11 we should have shut down the boarder, completely over hauled the INS, given local law enforcement the power to deport people, keep a close eye on people that were here on visas from middle eastern counties, fired the head of the CIA and FBI, any one flying who has the name Mohamed should be checked out and hired professionals for airport security. We are doing non of this. I flew a year ago and they were randomly checking people. I was lucky enough to be one of them. There was a 50 year old white guy, a 16 year old girl, a twenty year old college student, a grand ma and me ( I am so pasty white I burn being in the sun for 20 minutes). Am I the only one who sees something wrong with this? There is about a 99.9999999% chance that nun of us were the type of people to blow up a plane. Don't profile middle eastern men though, that's racial profiling and every one knows racial profiling isn't politically correct. It makes much more sense to check out someone's grand mother, invade countries, and do absolutly nothing to solve what cause the problem in the first place.
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    I flew right after 9/11 and they pulled everybody who looked even slightly middle eastern. There was a young black couple right behind me, and the guy said right after we boarded "Man I have never be so glad to be black." But soon the media heard that many airlines were doing this and the fallout stopped the airlines from doing it, and now they just started pulling randomly. And I agree, I would love for the borders to be harder to cross. But they fact we need the illegals, esp from Mexico. If they stopped coming who would cook your food, clean your hotel room and every other crap job out there. I work in the food industry and they do all the cooking and cleaning. Plus alot (not all) pay taxes. That billions of government dollars down the drain if they stop letting in illegals.
    ANd i looked at another site and it said the House bill only had 13 cosponsers and the Senate had none. So it seems this thing will never get off the ground. Since usually every congressmen and his mother signs on the popular bills and ones like this would be very unpopular with the country.
    Last edited by LCSULLA; 05-30-2004 at 07:13 AM.
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    But they fact we need the illegals, esp from Mexico. If they stopped coming who would cook your food, clean your hotel room and every other crap job out there. I work in the food industry and they do all the cooking and cleaning. Plus alot (not all) pay taxes. That billions of government dollars down the drain if they stop letting in illegals.
    The notion that we need illegal immigrants here is completely a false one. When you are flooded with Illegal aliens it drives down the wages of everyone else because they are willing to do the work for much less. What will happen is no one will want to do certain jobs at the prices that they were paying the illegals, so they will have to raise the wages to the point where people are willing to do it. It is also completely false that it will cost our government billions if we get rid of them. The first thing they do when they get here is to go on welfare (there was a story about this in Newsweek where they were all going to a certain town because the welfare system in the town was so good. Long story short, the town is going bankrupt), we have to pay for their health care when they go to the emergence room, we have to pay for their children to go to school, we have to pay when they go to prison and when they go through the legal system. Many times they send a good chunk of the money they make (if they are working) back to the countries they are from so the local economies don't benefit from them either. The fact is illegal aliens cost us money. They also take a toll on the educational system. If the children of illegal aliens flood the school system it costs the town money as well. In the town in the Newsweek article the education system in the town was also in shambles because they couldn't handle all the kids coming in. It also forces the school to hire ESL teachers. Another aspect to this is that for some reason they don't feel the need to learn English. This in turn dumbs down and slows down the pace of the classes they are in. So they kids who can speak English education suffers because of this.

    Plus alot (not all) pay taxes.
    Seeing how they don't have social security numbers, it is more likely that if they are working that they are getting paid under the table. In the left coast for example the illegals wait at a certain place and day laborers pick them up. They get paid for the day under the table. On top of that, who cares if they are paying taxes or not? That isn't the issue. The fact is they are breaking the laws of the United States. The are many immigrants who are following our laws and the process to come in to this country legally. Why don't the rules apply to the people who are going to contribute the least to this country? Why should they get a free pass? Instead we should be letting in the people who would contribute the most.
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    very good post VG.. you are on top of this
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    wait...why would we need a draft...aren't current troop numbers sufficient? or am i just misled?
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    at the current rate of causalities.. there is projected to be a significant reduction in troop strengths.. that and the fact that we are attempting to fight 2 wars at the same time. Everyone has kinda forgotten about Afghanistan but it is still not up and running and we are having more problems there as of late
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    I totally agree with everything VG has had to say. I am proud to be an American, and I've always said that if needed, I would go to war. But the more and more I think of it, I'm wondering why? I understand that my American brothers and sisters are being killed, but I just don't see a justified reason for us to be over there still. We took out Saddam, now lets get the **** out. Like VG said, as soon we leave things will change for the worst again. Jergo, you are a better man and American citizen than I am..call me a coward if you want, but I think I'm with Colossus on this one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DieTrying
    I totally agree with everything VG has had to say. I am proud to be an American, and I've always said that if needed, I would go to war. But the more and more I think of it, I'm wondering why? I understand that my American brothers and sisters are being killed, but I just don't see a justified reason for us to be over there still. We took out Saddam, now lets get the **** out. Like VG said, as soon we leave things will change for the worst again. Jergo, you are a better man and American citizen than I am..call me a coward if you want, but I think I'm with Colossus on this one.
    Nah man, I hear what you're saying. But the reason we're still over there is because of security reasons. The number one reason that the public was told why we're going to war is for the liberation of the Iraqi people. After a year we still haven't liberated them due to republican guard troops still fighting in small groups as well as Saddam followers, activists, etc....

    I think that if the country needs people to help defend our way-of-life then no matter how stupid people may think it is, IMO its still our duty to defend our country....you have your own opinion, thats fine man...this is America and thats what this country is about...
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    IMO if you going to ask one of our solders to sacrifice his life there better be a damn good reason
    ****in' a on that. Id state my opinion by VG pretty much nailed it so Ill save the bandwidth. Our government better get its head out of its ass, because this great nation of ours is going to hell in the politically correct handbasket faster than I ever thought it would. Sometimes, you just have to kick ass and take names, and **** what everyone else thinks.

    BV
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    wait...why would we need a draft...aren't current troop numbers sufficient? or am i just misled?
    Clinton significantly cut military personnel under his presidency. Then were have troops stationed every where and are fighting two wars so our military is spread pretty thin right now. There was a military guy ( I forget his name) who said that we need at least 200,000 troops on the ground in Iraq in order to be successful. I think we have about half of that.
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    I think that if the country needs people to help defend our way-of-life then no matter how stupid people may think it is, IMO its still our duty to defend our country....you have your own opinion, thats fine man...this is America and thats what this country is about...
    The problem is Iraq never really had anything close to a democracy and they aren't really a threat to us. I think the closest one was before Sadam and it didn't last too long. So if we waste our time, money, and American lives to set up a government , it's more likely than going to fall apart unless we occupy Iraq indefinitely. Even then there are still going to be bombs and snipers talking shots at our troops and members of the government. I guess my position they said there were WMDs and they either weren't there to begin with aren't there now. The government can't remain stable so why waste our time, money, and most importantly peoples lives. I believe the government has a great responsibility to our troops and members of our troops families to make sure that they keep them as safe as possible and that troops should only have to make the ultimate scarifies only when absolutely necessary. So if a bunch of terrorist are shooting at us from a "holy place" instead of being politically correct and worrying what the world thinks or if we are going to hurt someone's feelings by destroying a holy place, we shouldn't think twice about turning it into a crater.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla
    The problem is Iraq never really had anything close to a democracy and they aren't really a threat to us.
    What??...oh so 9/11 wasn't a threat to us?? If you really think that Saddam and OBL aren't fighting the same war, then you're truly naive...

    I guess my position they said there were WMDs and they either weren't there to begin with aren't there now.
    Umm...there have been findings of materials that are used in the manufacturing of WMD...

    I believe the government has a great responsibility to our troops and members of our troops families to make sure that they keep them as safe as possible and that troops should only have to make the ultimate scarifies only when absolutely necessary.
    Oh, so 9/11, all the terror attacks, this stupid scale that Tom Ridge uses for the "heightened terror alert" among other things that I could ramble on about but choose not to isn't sufficient enough reason to take these bastards out??


    So if a bunch of terrorist are shooting at us from a "holy place" instead of being politically correct and worrying what the world thinks or if we are going to hurt someone's feelings by destroying a holy place, we shouldn't think twice about turning it into a crater.
    First you say that we shouldn't be at war unless its absoultely necessary, but then go on to say that we should just nuke the place?? So which is it?? Nah man, it doesn't work like that....You gotta first try out less destructive ways and then at your last resort do what you gotta do with WMD....

    I don't like the way things are being done for the most part, but you gotta stand behind your country if things and others are threatening it....
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    I heard about this bill a while ago.

    It has about zero chance of passage.

    I'd also like to point out that the article says that the administration is trying to get this legislation passed, which seems to imply that Bush wants the draft, but I'd like to point out that the two sponsors of the bills, Sen. Hollings of SC, and Rep. Rangel of NY, are both Democrats, as are all of the cosponsors of the House version. Bush has nothing to do with this whatsoever.

    The aticle linked to above actually tries to mislead people into thinking this is a Republican idea, by saying the administration wants the draft and failing to mention the names of the sponsors or the fact that they are Democrats.

    /karp
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    What??...oh so 9/11 wasn't a threat to us?? If you really think that Saddam and OBL aren't fighting the same war, then you're truly naive...
    First of all I didn't say any thing about 9/11 not being a threat. I didn't say anything about Sadam and OBL not fighting the same war either . There has been several stories in the news about an Iraq/ Al Qeda link. There is also some circumstantial evidence that Sadam might have supplied the 9-11 terrorist with Anthrax. What I said was that in it's current situation Iraq isn't a threat to us. With the news that North Korea sending nuclear materials to another middle eastern country I consider that more of a threat to America than Iraq is right now.

    Oh, so 9/11, all the terror attacks, this stupid scale that Tom Ridge uses for the "heightened terror alert" among other things that I could ramble on about but choose not to isn't sufficient enough reason to take these bastards out??
    There is 100 other thing that our government should of done before invading another country. First of all, the 9-11 terrorists didn't fly a plane over here from Iraq or Afghanistan. They were all ready inside the united states. Second our own intelligence agents failed to prevent it. So the cause of 9-11 was primarily a problem with our owns country's security on our airlines, problems with the INS, and a break down of our intelligence agencies. We have not addressed any of these problems. We should have fired the heads of the CIA and FBI right after 9-11. We should have shut down the borders. We haven't done this in fact we want to legalize the people breaking the laws by coming over the boarders. We needed to completely over haul the INS. After 9-11 they renewed the terrorist visas. (that is how inept they are), We haven't done anything with that. With airport security instead of getting security professionals in there they just federalized the inept non English speaking airport employees. All the terrorist have been middle eastern yet in the current PC atmosphere of racial profiling is wrong they check 80 year old grandmothers instead of someone with the name Omar. That is for starters what we should of done.
    Another problem I see is Al quada is not a government. It isn't structured like a government. This means that conventional warfare will not be as effective with them as it was in say world war two. In WW2 you knock out the central government the war is over. With Al queda you have cells operating independently and has no central structure. So if we kill Bin Laden and a bunch of leaders the cells are still there and most likely someone is going to step up and take their places. Where as in WW2 you kill hilter the war is over. (To over simplify things.)
    First you say that we shouldn't be at war unless its absoultely necessary, but then go on to say that we should just nuke the place?? So which is it?? Nah man, it doesn't work like that....You gotta first try out less destructive ways and then at your last resort do what you gotta do with WMD....

    I don't like the way things are being done for the most part, but you gotta stand behind your country if things and others are threatening it....
    The problem is we are at war now. My position is since we are now there we should fight the war to win and protecting Americans solders should be our first priority. So if we have the choice of sending 250 troops in to a hostile town and let the locals take pot shots at them or turn the town into a parking then send the solders in. I will choose to turn the place into a parking every single time. If we continue to let people shoot at us from a church and not allow our troops to fight back because the church is a holy place, I think we should pull out. In all honestly I think this war is unwinable unless we change our tactics.

    Nah man, it doesn't work like that....You gotta first try out less destructive ways and then at your last resort do what you gotta do with WMD....
    Ok lets say you have the option of sending in 500 troops into a hostile city. The enemy is mixed in with the population and your troops can't tell the difference between them. It is a city which means there are many tall buildings and is likely snipers will be firing at your troops. There is a 50% mortality rate for your troops. Do you bomb the city which will significantly increase the mortality rate and then send your troops in or do you let 250 troops die?

    Umm...there have been findings of materials that are used in the manufacturing of WMD...
    What if there were WMDs and Sadam shipped them to Syria? Then Syria becomes the threat not Iraq. What if the WMDs were in Syria but the Bush administration didn't want to go in there because of all the political pressure they were under over Iraq. What if the WMDs used to be in Syria are now in the hands of different terrorists cells and some of them are head over here?
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla
    The problem is Iraq never really had anything close to a democracy and they aren't really a threat to us.


    What??...oh so 9/11 wasn't a threat to us?? If you really think that Saddam and OBL aren't fighting the same war, then you're truly naive...
    You also missed my first point was the war in Iraq has changed from originally being a clear and present danger to the united states to the purpose of the war to liberate Iraq. Seeing that Iraq never had democracy there, do you think it's worth sacrificing lives to implement a government that is bound to fail? If we can't or won't eliminate the people setting off bombs and sniping our troops, then we won't be able to stop them from doing that to it's own government officials, military, and police.
    Going to war to protect America is one thing going to war to liberate someone else's country is another.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla
    First of all I didn't say any thing about 9/11 not being a threat. I didn't say anything about Sadam and OBL not fighting the same war either . There has been several stories in the news about an Iraq/ Al Qeda link. There is also some circumstantial evidence that Sadam might have supplied the 9-11 terrorist with Anthrax. What I said was that in it's current situation Iraq isn't a threat to us. With the news that North Korea sending nuclear materials to another middle eastern country I consider that more of a threat to America than Iraq is right now.
    Yes, you just proved you're worng with your own statements here...all the above is happening yet you don't think they're a threat?? Yeah, okay...that makes a lot of sense.


    There is 100 other thing that our government should of done before invading another country. First of all, the 9-11 terrorists didn't fly a plane over here from Iraq or Afghanistan. They were all ready inside the united states. Second our own intelligence agents failed to prevent it. So the cause of 9-11 was primarily a problem with our owns country's security on our airlines, problems with the INS, and a break down of our intelligence agencies. We have not addressed any of these problems. We should have fired the heads of the CIA and FBI right after 9-11. We should have shut down the borders. We haven't done this in fact we want to legalize the people breaking the laws by coming over the boarders. We needed to completely over haul the INS. After 9-11 they renewed the terrorist visas. (that is how inept they are), We haven't done anything with that. With airport security instead of getting security professionals in there they just federalized the inept non English speaking airport employees. All the terrorist have been middle eastern yet in the current PC atmosphere of racial profiling is wrong they check 80 year old grandmothers instead of someone with the name Omar. That is for starters what we should of done.
    LOL...I just love how people balme everything on other people here as in the CIA/FBI...

    If you really think that EVERYTHING can be avoided like you imply, then I feel sorry for you. The FBI/CIA should have been able to prevent this?? What, are they like guardian angels sent from god himself?? This isn't a perfect world dude, abd I honestly don't understand why people like yourself think that things like this can be prevented...thats so outrageous, and btw, the terrorists on 9/11 had a sharpened piece of plastic and they used that to take over the planes....so no more plastic on planes now, correct?? LOL....you amaze me more and more everytime you post....


    The problem is we are at war now. My position is since we are now there we should fight the war to win and protecting Americans solders should be our first priority. So if we have the choice of sending 250 troops in to a hostile town and let the locals take pot shots at them or turn the town into a parking then send the solders in. I will choose to turn the place into a parking every single time. If we continue to let people shoot at us from a church and not allow our troops to fight back because the church is a holy place, I think we should pull out. In all honestly I think this war is unwinable unless we change our tactics.

    Ok lets say you have the option of sending in 500 troops into a hostile city. The enemy is mixed in with the population and your troops can't tell the difference between them. It is a city which means there are many tall buildings and is likely snipers will be firing at your troops. There is a 50% mortality rate for your troops. Do you bomb the city which will significantly increase the mortality rate and then send your troops in or do you let 250 troops die?
    Damn, for the umpteenth time I gotta post this...I said, I don't agree with some or should I say most of the tactics that are being used in this war, but you gotta try out less destructive ways first, and then resort to WMD lastly..and we as a whole should stand behind our country as long as the opposition are considered a threat, in which they are, but your too bullheaded to listen to reason, eventhough you just proved my point above like I already posted...


    What if there were WMDs and Sadam shipped them to Syria? Then Syria becomes the threat not Iraq. What if the WMDs were in Syria but the Bush administration didn't want to go in there because of all the political pressure they were under over Iraq. What if the WMDs used to be in Syria are now in the hands of different terrorists cells and some of them are head over here?
    SO what?? Saddam inititated it, so he must go down....at the least be treated as an example....the fact is, that he had them when he wasn't suppossed to, that was illegal according the UN...
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    Yes, you just proved you're worng with your own statements here...all the above is happening yet you don't think they're a threat?? Yeah, okay...that makes a lot of sense.
    I said that IRAQ IS CURRENTLY NOT A THREAT. Notice that I did not say they weren't a threat back then.

    If you really think that EVERYTHING can be avoided like you imply, then I feel sorry for you. The FBI/CIA should have been able to prevent this?? What, are they like guardian angels sent from god himself?? This isn't a perfect world dude, abd I honestly don't understand why people like yourself think that things like this can be prevented...thats so outrageous, and btw, the terrorists on 9/11 had a sharpened piece of plastic and they used that to take over the planes....so no more plastic on planes now, correct?? LOL....you amaze me more and more everytime you post....
    Did I say everything can be prevented? You need to start reading what I actually said instead jumping to your own conclusions.Jego you also need to do some reading on subjects that we are debating. Many of the 9-11 terrorist were on the CIA and FBI watch list yet they got visas to come into the country. After 9-11 they renewed those visas. You don't think that is a problem? Lets do nothing about that because nothing can be prevented?They also had box cutters not plastic. The FBI nabbed one of them in our but failed to search his computer because of the bureaucratic red tape. What if the plans were in the computer? Did you even know any of this?What I am saying is learn from our mistakes so what what happened doesn't happen again. So far we have not done that.
    Damn, for the umpteenth time I gotta post this...I said, I don't agree with some or should I say most of the tactics that are being used in this war, but you gotta try out less destructive ways first, and then resort to WMD lastly..and we as a whole should stand behind our country as long as the opposition are considered a threat, in which they are, but your too bullheaded to listen to reason, eventhough you just proved my point above like I already posted...
    Ok then by the scenario that you didn't answer........ you would choose to let the 250 solders die then?
    SO what?? Saddam initiated it, so he must go down....at the least be treated as an example....the fact is, that he had them when he wasn't suppossed to, that was illegal according the UN...
    So what that the WMDs might be in Syria, out of Syria into the hands of terrorists? That was the whole point in going into Iraq. That also means the treat to the United States has moved.
    Last edited by VanillaGorilla; 06-07-2004 at 12:16 PM.
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    in the late 1980's and up to the end of the first Gulf war, IRAQ was a threat but it should have been taken care of THEN. not wait for freakin 12 years or more and then do it. IMO..
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla
    I said that IRAQ IS CURRENTLY NOT A THREAT. Notice that I did not say they weren't a threat back then.
    No, you implied it is what I meant...

    And if the right people get involved again....then they'll be a threat again...

    Reconstruction is part of war....whether you like it or not....and that is what we're trying to do, but have found out that we still have opposition thats standing in our way...first use more tactical ground missions, and then if it fails, which it's clearly doing right now, use more firepower, more troops, more precision weapons...."nukin' 'em" is out of the question...
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    that was one of the things that concerned me the most when the war on Iraq as announced.. what would happen, after the war. I had the understanding that SH was not big on allowing terrorists to operate inside of his borders (I might be wrong here but) and if this were true, then the resulting chaos would give some of these groups ample opportunity to set up shop in Iraq
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    No, you implied it is what I meant...
    What are you taking about? You said " all the above is happening yet you don't think they're a threat?? "
    There is a difference between what I said and what you think I implied. Your sentence above you are taking what I wrote and getting something totally different out of it.

    Reconstruction is part of war....whether you like it or not....and that is what we're trying to do, but have found out that we still have opposition that's standing in our way...first use more tactical ground missions, and then if it fails, which it's clearly doing right now, use more firepower, more troops, more precision weapons...."nukin' 'em" is out of the question...
    Please tell me that you are not saying that I said we should nuke them. I guess you answered my question then. You would take the 250 casualties then?
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    And if the right people get involved again....then they'll be a threat again...
    The way were are fighting the war they are a threat to our, solders, their civilians, and the government infrastructure that they are trying to set up. They have already killed one of the main people in the new government with a car bomb. Even if we do rebuild and set up a government how long do you think it's going to last? Maybe if we lucky they could end up like Israel but they still have problems with terrorist. When we rebuilt Japan we were there for about 7 years I think and they didn't have terrorist problems. So in other words we could be there a very long time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla
    What are you taking about? You said " all the above is happening yet you don't think they're a threat?? "
    There is a difference between what I said and what you think I implied. Your sentence above you are taking what I wrote and getting something totally different out of it.


    Please tell me that you are not saying that I said we should nuke them. I guess you answered my question then. You would take the 250 casualties then?
    Bro, learn to reason with an open mind, or don't at all....you said "I think we should turn them into a parking lot".....

    Once again, I'm done debating with you...as you cannot present yourself correctly and get defensive when someone disagrees....you said what you said, thats why I quoted you, then you keep going back and saying that isn't what I meant, eventhough you didn't actually say thats what you meant...

    So how am I supposed to know what you mean or didn't mean when giving a blanket statement??
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jergo
    Bro, learn to reason with an open mind, or don't at all....you said "I think we should turn them into a parking lot".....

    Once again, I'm done debating with you...as you cannot present yourself correctly and get defensive when someone disagrees....you said what you said, thats why I quoted you, then you keep going back and saying that isn't what I meant, eventhough you didn't actually say thats what you meant...

    So how am I supposed to know what you mean or didn't mean when giving a blanket statement??

    BTW, editing your statements now and trying to pass them off isn't going to work....
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    Bro, learn to reason with an open mind, or don't at all....you said "I think we should turn them into a parking lot".....
    Is the word Nuke used in that sentence at all? Nope. Here is what I said "So if we have the choice of sending 250 troops in to a hostile town and let the locals take pot shots at them or turn the town into a parking then send the solders in." Are you "implying" that I would send troops in after I dropped a nuclear bomb? Seeing that my position is to take as little U.S casualties as possible it's not likely.
    Once again, I'm done debating with you...as you cannot present yourself correctly and get defensive when someone disagrees....you said what you said, that's why I quoted you, then you keep going back and saying that isn't what I meant, even though you didn't actually say thats what you meant...
    I am not getting defensive at all. I simply do not like it when people say that I said things when I didn't say them. If you are quoting me accurately find me were I said that "everything can be avoided" or that "I want to nuke Iraq" or my favorite "9/11 not being a threat" or "Sadam and OBL not fighting the same war". You can't because I didn't say them. Therefore it's pretty easy to see that you are not reading what I am saying. You left out the second part of the quote as well. Also find me were I said "what I ment was". I think what you will find is you saying I wrote something I didn't and me saying I never said that.
    You also didn't answer any of the questions that I asked you such as what you would do in the scenario I posted and if you knew about the INS and the other terrorist's computer? If you done that's fine. In the future when you are debating someone think about what the person actually said, don't debate on what you think they said, and do some reading on the subject you are debating.
    Last edited by VanillaGorilla; 06-07-2004 at 01:04 PM.
  

  
 

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