Student puts Obama on the spot

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    Student puts Obama on the spot


    [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npjKObsTAng"]YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.[/nomedia]

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    Wow listen to him spewing all that crap in an effort to play off an excuse...
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    Turning against Israel is the last thing we want to do...
    •   
       

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    Quote Originally Posted by carpee View Post
    Turning against Israel is the last thing we want to do...
    I do agree to that but solely for Biblical purposes. Then again have you seen some of the crap the IDF does...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero V View Post
    I do agree to that but solely for Biblical purposes. Then again have you seen some of the crap the IDF does...
    For Biblical reasons I do agree.
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    Wow, what a way to dodge a good question.
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpee View Post
    For Biblical reasons I do agree.
    See I have another point of view. **** Israel. What about Israel attacking the USS Liberty and human right violations? Yeah that's a nation I'll stand by. These are not "God's people", they have their own agenda.
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    First I'll say that I do believe in the bible. Israel was "resettled" by the jews as it was given to them by God in "the past". I believe that Jesus, the son of god, existed and the jews put him to death. The US was founded on "Christian" beliefs- not jewish. I don't hate people because of race or ancestry and no country or man should walk on egg shells around a Jew or Israel because of the bible. If they are still God's chosen people then God will protect them. I say quit protecting them and put their faith to the test.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DerickVonD View Post
    See I have another point of view. **** Israel. What about Israel attacking the USS Liberty and human right violations? Yeah that's a nation I'll stand by. These are not "God's people", they have their own agenda.
    Like I said, I have many issues with the IDF. Its like a walking whorehouse/thug gang/cowards who use human shields....


    Quote Originally Posted by omni View Post
    First I'll say that I do believe in the bible. Israel was "resettled" by the jews as it was given to them by God in "the past". I believe that Jesus, the son of god, existed and the jews put him to death. The US was founded on "Christian" beliefs- not jewish. I don't hate people because of race or ancestry and no country or man should walk on egg shells around a Jew or Israel because of the bible. If they are still God's chosen people then God will protect them. I say quit protecting them and put their faith to the test.
    I agree to an extent, but it Israel will play a major role in the future. It will be interesting how it all panes out.

    Besides country to country, the united states is a far more disgusting and deprived nation than Israel. So I see no real reason to judge too much on a nation that actually gets things done in war time, even if I dont agree with it.
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    the Jews put Jesus to death?

    I guess we are unfamiliar with Pilate, and what Empire used crucifixion. Hmmm....
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    the Jews put Jesus to death?

    I guess we are unfamiliar with Pilate, and what Empire used crucifixion. Hmmm....
    American soldiers are responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocents, horrible war crimes, and we were the only nation to ever us nuclear weapons offensively murdering hundreds of thousands and leaving another country to face generations of horrible side effects....

    So now should we all kill ourselves today, or be forgiven?????

    Their ancestors may have certainly done that, but it was because that was part of the plan.

    Or are the very words the man they crucified spoke already forgotten...
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    I'm actually very aware of the role that Pontius Pilate had in the death of Jesus. Around the time of the passover, according to jewish tradition, the Jews could release a prisoner. Pilate offers to release Barrabas or Jesus. He didn't want to see Jesus killed because he wasn't a criminal but Barrabas was. It was up to the croud of Jews to release a prisoner. The croud was coached by the Pharisees and Sadducees to shout against Jesus. Barrabas, a criminal, was released-Jesus wasn't. Jews were responsible for the death of Jesus Hmm...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero V View Post
    American soldiers are responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocents, horrible war crimes, and we were the only nation to ever us nuclear weapons offensively murdering hundreds of thousands and leaving another country to face generations of horrible side effects....

    So now should we all kill ourselves today, or be forgiven?????

    Their ancestors may have certainly done that, but it was because that was part of the plan.

    Or are the very words the man they crucified spoke already forgotten...
    I agree that the death of Jesus was part of the plan and have no ill feelings toward jewish people today. That was all history, ancient history. People shouldn't fight over things our ancestors did, but if people are going to fight they should fight to win. Forget rules. If a guy comes at me with a knife I'm not going to pull out a knife to have a fair fight. I'm pulling out a gun. If the guy dies, well, Don't mess with a guy with better weapons. I don't agree with war crimes. The modern world has been feminized. People joke about the middle east being primitive but, they know what war is. They fight to win and I don't here anyone screaming war crimes at them. Oh thats because they're not around after they blow themselves up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by omni View Post
    First I'll say that I do believe in the bible. Israel was "resettled" by the jews as it was given to them by God in "the past". I believe that Jesus, the son of god, existed and the jews put him to death. The US was founded on "Christian" beliefs- not jewish. I don't hate people because of race or ancestry and no country or man should walk on egg shells around a Jew or Israel because of the bible. If they are still God's chosen people then God will protect them. I say quit protecting them and put their faith to the test.
    Guess you don't believe the part where the Lord says to Israel, "I will bless those that bless you, and curse those that curse you." Might wanna rethink that opinion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ribo68 View Post
    Guess you don't believe the part where the Lord says to Israel, "I will bless those that bless you, and curse those that curse you." Might wanna rethink that opinion.
    So, does it not matter how evil a nation is, as long as they are backed in scripture? I never said I hate jews or I hate anyone that is from Israel, I just do not trust the Israeli government, nor do I trust the US government, or most governments for that matter. Both the Israeli and US government are corrupt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by omni View Post
    I'm actually very aware of the role that Pontius Pilate had in the death of Jesus. Around the time of the passover, according to jewish tradition, the Jews could release a prisoner. Pilate offers to release Barrabas or Jesus. He didn't want to see Jesus killed because he wasn't a criminal but Barrabas was. It was up to the croud of Jews to release a prisoner. The croud was coached by the Pharisees and Sadducees to shout against Jesus. Barrabas, a criminal, was released-Jesus wasn't. Jews were responsible for the death of Jesus Hmm...
    Pilate actually had final say over the decision. The Jews had little to no power, as Rome was in control. The Romans had no concern of a Jewish uprising <see Titus>. The Romans were responsible, however, the corrupt temple heirarchy most certainly was not upset over it.

    However, to say that the Jews were responsible, is a bit of an overestimation.
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    Who had Jesus arrested and why?
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    half my family is from the Palestinian region, and all I have to say is that whatever happens to either of them, they BOTH deserve it.... They both attack each other equally, Israel should not have been pointed out soley..
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    Quote Originally Posted by omni View Post
    Who had Jesus arrested and why?
    It depends on what you consider the role of Judas. Also, being arrested is different than being executed
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Pilate actually had final say over the decision. The Jews had little to no power, as Rome was in control. The Romans had no concern of a Jewish uprising <see Titus>. The Romans were responsible, however, the corrupt temple heirarchy most certainly was not upset over it.

    However, to say that the Jews were responsible, is a bit of an overestimation.
    What are you talking about lol? The were the ones that put him in that position in the first place. Pilate tried to release him, the Jews chose a friggin murderer! Imagine that it was your own son/father or flesh and blood..who would YOU think is guilty? Pilate could have set him free as well so his hands are not clean...but it was the Jews that had rejected the Christ,the Sanhedrin specifically, condemned Jesus for blasphemy and then to death. Jesus was a non-Roman Jew, so of little concern to Rome that way and if it appeased the Jews as in shut them up then the Romans were more than happy to oblige.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacktail View Post
    What are you talking about lol? The were the ones that put him in that position in the first place. Pilate tried to release him, the Jews chose a friggin murderer! Imagine that it was your own son/father or flesh and blood..who would YOU think is guilty? Pilate could have set him free as well so his hands are not clean...but it was the Jews that had rejected the Christ,the Sanhedrin specifically, condemned Jesus for blasphemy and then to death. Jesus was a non-Roman Jew, so of little concern to Rome that way and if it appeased the Jews as in shut them up then the Romans were more than happy to oblige.
    Think about the crime that Jesus was being brought up on. He was proclaiming himself as a king. That was a crime against Rome not the Jewish population. Hence the "king of the jews" reference on the cross. I am not suggesting that the temple heirarchy has clean hands, but the Romans (and Pilate) of course make the decision. As well as the means of execution, which were Roman in nature.

    Additionally, you state that the Jews rejected "the Christ". Bear in mind that Jews do believe in a Messiah, but do not, and did not at the time believe that Yeshua (Jesus) fit that bill. So, of course they rejected him.
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    Jesus never said that he was king of the jews. The jews did. His kingdom was in heaven.
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    Quote Originally Posted by omni View Post
    Jesus never said that he was king of the jews. The jews did. His kingdom was in heaven.
    incorrect, he actually claimed to be the decendant of jewish royalty. Therefore, creating a threat (a silly one) to the Roman leadership, which was a crime
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    This is straight from the bible.......John 18:28-40 (English Standard Version)

    Jesus Before Pilate
    28(A) Then they led Jesus(B) from the house of Caiaphas to(C) the governor’s headquarters.[a] It was early morning. They themselves did not enter the governor’s headquarters,(D) so that they would not be defiled,(E) but could eat the Passover. 29(F) So Pilate went outside to them and said, "What accusation do you bring against this man?" 30They answered him, "If this man were not doing evil, we would not have delivered him over to you." 31Pilate said to them,(G) "Take him yourselves and judge him by your own law." The Jews said to him, "It is not lawful for us to put anyone to death." 32(H) This was to fulfill the word that Jesus had spoken(I) to show by what kind of death he was going to die.
    My Kingdom Is Not of This World
    33(J) So Pilate entered his headquarters again and called Jesus and said to him,(K) "Are you the King of the Jews?" 34Jesus answered, "Do you say this of your own accord, or did others say it to you about me?" 35Pilate answered, "Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered you over to me. What have you done?" 36Jesus answered, (L) "My kingdom(M) is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world,(N) my servants would have been fighting, that(O) I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world." 37Then Pilate said to him, "So you are a king?" Jesus answered, (P) "You say that I am a king.(Q) For this purpose I was born and for this purpose(R) I have come into the world—(S) to bear witness to the truth.(T) Everyone who is(U) of the truth(V) listens to my voice." 38Pilate said to him, "What is truth?"


    After he had said this,(W) he went back outside to the Jews and told them,(X) "I find no guilt in him. 39(Y) But you have a custom that I should release one man for you at the Passover. So do you want me to release to you the King of the Jews?" 40They cried out again,(Z) "Not this man, but Barabbas!" Now Barabbas was a robber.[b]

    #1 his kingdom is not of this world #2 Jews were responsible for his arrest, false trial and his death.
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    once again, lets simplify.

    Pilate has the final say, like a judge in a bench trial. If Pilate did not want him put to death, he would not have been. Also bear in mind one more thing. Jesus was an OT scholar, and new to be the "messiah" he must fit certain criteria to be the messiah of the OT. That claims for lineage to jewish royalty. A claim of kingship. Hence a crime against Rome. Case closed

    As an aside, using the NT as a source is not reliable IMO based on countless translations and mistranslations
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    To expect someone to have the perfect answer for every question is overdemanding. Everyone struggles sometimes, no one has the perfect answer always. I don't defend the president, I just don't think this gives the president any negative points in my book. We are living with too much talk, not enough action anyways. I will probably neutral on Obama till his term is over and a better evaluation can be made.
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    If someone is discussing Jesus, then the only source that should be used is the NT. Where else do Christians get their faith from? Saying not to use the NT as a source is as stupid as saying that the Holocaust never happened. Jesus was as much a scholar as the next Jew, they all new the law. You simplifying things is ignoring the context of things and the facts. First, When Jesus was arrested he wasn't formally charged with any crime. The people with Judas that came to arrest him were priests and elders- they were his judges and the same people from the temple that bribed Judas. Jewish law only permited these proceedings during day light-not in Jesus' case. The Sanhedrin was not allowed to originate cases-But they did without bringing up witnesses. No one could testify on Jesus behalf. The trial began on a day before an annual Sabbath even though Jewish law didn't allow the trial of a capital offense to begin on a Friday or the day before an annual Sabbath. Jesus was arrested and tried on the 14th of Abib, the day before the first annual Sabbath of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Jesus' trial was conducted in private and completed in less than nine hours also against jewish law. Two false witnesses charged Jesus with saying He would destroy the temple made with hands and he was condemned by the court on another false charge-blasphemy. He was condemned on his own testimony but according to Jewish law, a person could not be condemned on his own testimony. The sentence was pronounced in a place forbidden by law. The trial took place at the high priest's house. According to Jewish law, a death sentence could be pronounced only in the court's appointed place. Most of the judges were legally disqualified to try Jesus. Some bought their way into office, according to Josephus. Since they were known enemies of Jesus, Jewish law required that they disqualify themselves so he could be tried by impartial judges. The court switched the charges from blasphemy to treason to Pilate. The Jewish leaders wanted him killed, but they didn't want to do it themselves. So they charged him with treason -a Roman crime-so the Romans would be responsible for his death. Pilate saw that Jesus was not guilty but was afraid of a Jewish uprising so he allowed Jesus to be executed instead of Barrabas. Pilate didn't even pronounce him guilty- he just turned him over to the soldiers because thats what the Jews wanted. It was up to the Jews. Jesus didn't cause political unrest for the Romans. He was a threat to the Jewish leaders. Who brought Jesus to Pilate for execution? Jews. Why bring him to Pilate? Because the Jews couln't execute him but the Romans could. The Jews were using another government to get what they wanted. What would've happened if Pilate released Jesus instead of the murderer? Riots. Pilate didn't have a choice and he clearly new Jesus wasn't a threat to the Roman government. If you study the OT Haggai 2:7-9, Gen 49:10, Ezra 1:5-8, Daniel 9:24-26 and do the math, the messiah came over 2000 years ago and the people still waiting for him killed him. Thats why the Jews will keep waiting for the messiah. Jesus was and still is a threat to the Jews. It makes me wonder if there's any truth to the Jews controling the US Look what they did in Rome. They used Rome to kill an innocent man and free a muderer. I'd say that about somes it up. Pilate asked Jesus for the truth-here it is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by omni View Post
    If someone is discussing Jesus, then the only source that should be used is the NT. Where else do Christians get their faith from? Saying not to use the NT as a source is as stupid as saying that the Holocaust never happened. Jesus was as much a scholar as the next Jew, they all new the law. You simplifying things is ignoring the context of things and the facts. First, When Jesus was arrested he wasn't formally charged with any crime. The people with Judas that came to arrest him were priests and elders- they were his judges and the same people from the temple that bribed Judas. Jewish law only permited these proceedings during day light-not in Jesus' case. The Sanhedrin was not allowed to originate cases-But they did without bringing up witnesses. No one could testify on Jesus behalf. The trial began on a day before an annual Sabbath even though Jewish law didn't allow the trial of a capital offense to begin on a Friday or the day before an annual Sabbath. Jesus was arrested and tried on the 14th of Abib, the day before the first annual Sabbath of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Jesus' trial was conducted in private and completed in less than nine hours also against jewish law. Two false witnesses charged Jesus with saying He would destroy the temple made with hands and he was condemned by the court on another false charge-blasphemy. He was condemned on his own testimony but according to Jewish law, a person could not be condemned on his own testimony. The sentence was pronounced in a place forbidden by law. The trial took place at the high priest's house. According to Jewish law, a death sentence could be pronounced only in the court's appointed place. Most of the judges were legally disqualified to try Jesus. Some bought their way into office, according to Josephus. Since they were known enemies of Jesus, Jewish law required that they disqualify themselves so he could be tried by impartial judges. The court switched the charges from blasphemy to treason to Pilate. The Jewish leaders wanted him killed, but they didn't want to do it themselves. So they charged him with treason -a Roman crime-so the Romans would be responsible for his death. Pilate saw that Jesus was not guilty but was afraid of a Jewish uprising so he allowed Jesus to be executed instead of Barrabas. Pilate didn't even pronounce him guilty- he just turned him over to the soldiers because thats what the Jews wanted. It was up to the Jews. Jesus didn't cause political unrest for the Romans. He was a threat to the Jewish leaders. Who brought Jesus to Pilate for execution? Jews. Why bring him to Pilate? Because the Jews couln't execute him but the Romans could. The Jews were using another government to get what they wanted. What would've happened if Pilate released Jesus instead of the murderer? Riots. Pilate didn't have a choice and he clearly new Jesus wasn't a threat to the Roman government. If you study the OT Haggai 2:7-9, Gen 49:10, Ezra 1:5-8, Daniel 9:24-26 and do the math, the messiah came over 2000 years ago and the people still waiting for him killed him. Thats why the Jews will keep waiting for the messiah. Jesus was and still is a threat to the Jews. It makes me wonder if there's any truth to the Jews controling the US Look what they did in Rome. They used Rome to kill an innocent man and free a muderer. I'd say that about somes it up. Pilate asked Jesus for the truth-here it is.

    the bolded sections show me there is no point to further this conversation. Have a nice day
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    once again, lets simplify.

    Pilate has the final say, like a judge in a bench trial. If Pilate did not want him put to death, he would not have been. Also bear in mind one more thing. Jesus was an OT scholar, and new to be the "messiah" he must fit certain criteria to be the messiah of the OT. That claims for lineage to jewish royalty. A claim of kingship. Hence a crime against Rome. Case closed

    As an aside, using the NT as a source is not reliable IMO based on countless translations and mistranslations
    Not to nitpick but I don't see how you can compare it to a bench trial completely. Pilate asked what he should do and the people responded, thus making it more like a jury trial. They chose death and his way out was saying that he gave them what THEY wanted.

    I really don't mind either way, but since I studied criminal justice I felt the need to clear that up. I was thinking about the whole Jews executing Jesus thing the other day.

    I personally do like Israel though, they have been **** on for centuries and they don't take **** anymore. We could learn a few things from how they treat people that mistreat them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by n8te View Post
    Not to nitpick but I don't see how you can compare it to a bench trial completely. Pilate asked what he should do and the people responded, thus making it more like a jury trial. They chose death and his way out was saying that he gave them what THEY wanted.

    I really don't mind either way, but since I studied criminal justice I felt the need to clear that up. I was thinking about the whole Jews executing Jesus thing the other day.

    I personally do like Israel though, they have been **** on for centuries and they don't take **** anymore. We could learn a few things from how they treat people that mistreat them.
    I understand your point, as my BS is in Criminal Justice.

    However, regardless of Pilate asking for thoughts, he was the final decision maker. Pilate and Rome had no concern of a hebrew uprising. They had show a relentless aggression towards the area throughout their history. Should the Jews revolt, it would have been catastrophic for them. See Titus...
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    I think the majority of people who have studied the bible would agree that it was the Jews who were responsible for the death of Jesus. Sorry, the minority Jews are the only ones who still can't see it. Anyway, its good to have freedom of religion and a place to disagree without killing each other over it. I'll never see it your way, and you'll never see it my way. Gotta love religion and politics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I understand your point, as my BS is in Criminal Justice.

    However, regardless of Pilate asking for thoughts, he was the final decision maker. Pilate and Rome had no concern of a hebrew uprising. They had show a relentless aggression towards the area throughout their history. Should the Jews revolt, it would have been catastrophic for them. See Titus...
    You're correct good sir, I completely understand the history between Rome and the Jews a revolt would be futile. The Jews have been getting beat up for longer than anyone cares to remember.

    I don't agree with religious zealots that are so close minded that they would rather kill than let another group believe differently than them, and I know that its more than just that between the Jews and Palestinians but I'm mainly referring to any religion. However, I can understand why the Jews act the way they do, with swift and damaging strikes against other groups that try to hurt them. Some part of me can't stop thinking that it's a psychological thing with them, fearing being ruled by another (group,country,etc..) again.

    I actually only have a minor in CJ my BS is in Public Health, but I love law and all it entails.
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    I am sick of america always being the "superman". We say they will help us out at the end, but really? Just like the haiti incedent we give millions to them and they dont say thank you they say "ummmm hello we need more!". We owe china a tone of money and i doubt they are going to be kind about this debt. There able to create the largest army in the world, I think we should be a little cautious. Start working on the debt, and start make our country once great again. Oh and quit kicking God out of everything. Once we become a Godless country, this country will fall. I dont think its just coincadence that this country became #1.
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    Quote Originally Posted by madds87 View Post
    I dont think its just coincadence that this country became #1.
    Two Euro-centric world wars had more to do with it than God did matey.

    I think 'who killed jesus' is no basis for foreign policy in the modern world and anyone who states that the IDF is a "whorehouse/thug gang/cowards" is bluntly talking out of their arse.

    The bulk of the IDF are conscripts who do their 3 years and get out, the assertion that they use 'human shields' any more or less so than the "Palestinians" (There is no such things as a Palestinian, they are Syrians, Egyptians & Jordanians) is so woefully out of touch with the reality as to be easily classed as propaganda. These aren't the 'murdering hook-nosed-fascists' whatever pro-palestinian websites you are reading would have you believe. They are men and women in their late teens and early twenties doing what they have to do to get by - and it's not exactly uncommon for Israeli squaddies both men and women to get killed during their three years.

    I'm not saying the IDF is whiter than white, not at all, I'm saying that as with everything in the middle east everything is shades of gray. The single biggest problem is that all sides insist the other is 'evil' and this ultimately means no discourse can occur and the issues will not be resolved any time soon. Just the same as Osama says the US is Satan, once you turn something into a battle of Good vs. Evil they are no easy resolutions, so seriously fellas think twice before you start dropping those words into these kinds of discussions. You can very quickly become part of the problem if you aren't careful.

    What is a fact though is that the Syrians, Egyptians and Jordanians started a war in which they got their collective asses handed to them (A war which if they had won there wouldn't be any Israelis left to talk about it by the way) and the occupied territories were taken from them by Israel. Be under no illusions, the intention of the arab coalition in that conflict was a war of annihilation against Israel. So in short, if the Egyptians, Jordanians and Syrians in the occupied territories don't like it, they should **** off back to Syria/ Egypt & Jordan.

    Israel has been surrounded by enemies since it's inception, as Nate said I don't blame them for feeling a bit victimised. You can also say that for a nation-state where everyone quite happily does their national service (Conscription) before going on with the rest of their lives that they demonstrate some extremely admirable qualities. They stick together and don't take **** from anyone.

    There is 0% chance that the US/ Israeli alliance will sever anytime in the lifetimes of anyone reading this.
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    very well said Vance. Reps
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    Quote Originally Posted by DerickVonD View Post
    See I have another point of view. **** Israel. What about Israel attacking the USS Liberty and human right violations? Yeah that's a nation I'll stand by. These are not "God's people", they have their own agenda.
    remember that one time israel had like 8 countries or nations or sumtin like that on them , and they were still holding their own??

    ya i wouldnt f--- with them, God takes care of his people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Fires View Post
    remember that one time israel had like 8 countries or nations or sumtin like that on them , and they were still holding their own??

    ya i wouldnt f--- with them, God takes care of his people.
    And what if the people in charge are not God's people? Revelations 2:9
    I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

    I'd like to just point out however, that I am not an expert at scripture, nor do I claim to be. I just feel strongly, that the people in charge(not necessarily the citizens), but the men in charge are not for a loving God.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DerickVonD View Post
    And what if the people in charge are not God's people? Revelations 2:9
    I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

    I'd like to just point out however, that I am not an expert at scripture, nor do I claim to be. I just feel strongly, that the people in charge(not necessarily the citizens), but the men in charge are not for a loving God.
    I think Revelation 2:9 is about the people of the church of Smyrna who were making claims in the name of Jesus and were not actually believers...
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    Quote Originally Posted by DerickVonD View Post
    And what if the people in charge are not God's people? Revelations 2:9
    I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

    I'd like to just point out however, that I am not an expert at scripture, nor do I claim to be. I just feel strongly, that the people in charge(not necessarily the citizens), but the men in charge are not for a loving God.
    D, I put a question to you. What course of action would you advocate for the Jews to take?

    I'd be interested to know what you think the answer is.
  

  
 

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