Spirit of the Law vs Letter of the Law

[suncloud]

sorry, i have to rant here for a second before i loose my sanity.

As some of you know, my girlfriend was heavily addicted to narcotics, which she legally was prescribed from her doctor. When i say heavily addicted, she was taking the chemical equivalent of 120 percocets per day. 40mg x 12 oxycontin, + 24 percocets per day, in addition to a host of other medications she was legally prescribed - from the same doctor. She became so heavily addicted, that she forged a prescription. Needless to say, she was arrested, and placed on probation. Here's where it gets interesting. According to her probation, she couldn't take any medication unless it was prescribed, meaning 600mg of opiates (12g of morphine) is kosher. Go figure, she tries that, and she violated her probation by forging another prescription. Now, at this point, her probation was revoked. No problem right, everything makes sense. So, to break the addiction, and keep in mind she has a bulging disk in her back, needs a hysterectomy, and has a growth on her thyroid (she needs pain meds is what i'm saying), we get her on medical marijuana. Apparently, this violates her probation.

Now, her probation was revoked at this point, so i'm not sure what exactly she is violating here. Secondly, if she keeps getting opiates, she'll forge another prescription, so while 100% legal, isn't a wise decision. To manage pain, there are 4 options (my mom is a doctor) :
1 - opiates (which she obviously has problems with
2 - morphine - she was admitted to the hospital after being prescribed this because she stopped breathing
3 - corticosteroids - tried and not effective
4 - medical marijuana

So by taking option 4, we are choosing the only rational choice for her. Apparently, even though she was prescribed the marijuana, it violates her probation by having it. Yes, the probation which was revoked, is what she is "violating".

The doctor, who did early refills on a Class 1 controlled substance is still practicing, even though i showed the police numerous bottles with early refills on it 8 months ago. Apparently giving an addict their preferred drug of choice is OK, but god help you if you try and break the cycle. What happened to the spirit of the law? Why is it OK to give someone the drugs that are bad for them, but its not OK if they're trying to get better? According to the probation officer (why does she still have one when it was revoked), she didn't submit paperwork through the court to clear her for medical marijuana. What happened to the spirit of the law which was intended for people to make their lives better? Why does the spirit of the law fail here, yet she could just as easily have taken prescription heroin (opiates) and been legal?

I'm finding it hard to have faith in the judicial system, and the laws that were designed to protect people, when what i see around me is a blatent attempt by law enforcement to keep people from making progress. Why is this doctor still practicing medicine, when clearly he violated the charter of the american medical association, and violated federal law? Is this the new and improved way of keeping the cities coffers full, when clearly they're loosing money in property taxes?

I'm so confused right now as to what the heck is going on. Before anyone asks, i was in police academy, and have always had a high view of police officers, or peace officers as their new job description is. How hard will it be to do police investigations when the general public no longer trusts the police to uphold what the law was intended to do? Is this just a sign of bad economic times, where the police have to harass people to make their cities some money, and has the law failed those who it was designed to protect?

Sorry for the long post, i wanted to make sure i covered everything. Thoughts?

 

[dg806]

Man, that sounds like a very complicated matter. There are many old laws on the books that really don't make sense. I would not blame the police officers for doing their job, but that the old laws which don't make any sense. And the bad thing is, even with lawyers arguing and fighting this out, it may be new ground and something that is still hard to understand what the correct action should be. In the meantime though, it still does not help your gf. I can tell you from experience with my daughter recently, that she was on alot of pain medications for severe headaches. They were not doing her any good except for knocking her out(she is 13). What we found out was, that when these strong medications wore off, it actually started the onset of the next headache. Sometimes these medications have adverse reactions and makes symptoms worse. My mom had a good friend that was hooked on pain pills like your gf. All she did was lay around and sleep everyday because she could not function. My prayers are with you, as I know this will be a long tough road.

 

[EasyEJL]

keep in mind she has a bulging disk in her back, needs a hysterectomy, and has a growth on her thyroid (she needs pain meds is what i'm saying), we get her on medical marijuana.

Just as a question, why haven't those things been taken care of? the hysterectomy, thyroid growth and disc?

 

[suncloud]

Just as a question, why haven't those things been taken care of? the hysterectomy, thyroid growth and disc?

well, hysterectomy they don't want to do because she's 30. thyroid has just shown up on an MRI. the bulging disk we've had worked on. from spinal injections, to the corticosteroid one, and even a neurotomy (killing some nerves via radio frequency). the only step left is to replace the disc, which we've finally found a doctor who will do the surgery. he wanted to do the corticosteroid injection first to see if it helped the issue since it would be much cheaper. also, we have no insurance, so we have to do this as the money is saved.

what really aggravates me, is when the probation officer was here (last night), she said "i'd rather have pill bottles lying around than you smoking marijuana". i mean isn't that a bit ridiculous considering what she does while on opiates? i mean, any time she's been in trouble with the law, opiates were the cause of it. its like they want to throw pills in her direction and hope it helps the problem....

DG806, i'm not blaming the police officers for doing what they think is right, but i do suspect in the troubled economy they are trying harder to charge people with something. she's kicked the addiction, and the doctor who prescribed it is still in practice even though he was breaking federal law to refill the meds. i'm not sure of your situation exactly, and i do feel for anyone who's gone through this, but when the doctors aren't held accountable for what they've done, its like a classic scenario where police bust people for buying drugs instead of going after the dealer - after all, 10 arrests for buyers doesn't look as good on paper as 1 arrest for the dealer. IMO the path is set for this doctor to screw up someone elses life, and even though i can and have proven that laws were broken by him, nobody is concerned.

 

[EasyEJL]

well, hysterectomy they don't want to do because she's 30. thyroid has just shown up on an MRI. the bulging disk we've had worked on. from spinal injections, to the corticosteroid one, and even a neurotomy (killing some nerves via radio frequency). the only step left is to replace the disc, which we've finally found a doctor who will do the surgery. he wanted to do the corticosteroid injection first to see if it helped the issue since it would be much cheaper. also, we have no insurance, so we have to do this as the money is saved.

ah that sucks. Although this sounds horrible in its own way, if she is jailed again over breaking probation, is there any way you can leverage the health care provided to inmates to get it taken care of? Sounds horrible in a way, but if it works, it works. Not saying to get jailed just for that purpose, but if she's getting jailed anyhow...

what really aggravates me, is when the probation officer was here (last night), she said "i'd rather have pill bottles lying around than you smoking marijuana". i mean isn't that a bit ridiculous considering what she does while on opiates?

No, because honestly she's still responsible for her own actions. Lots of people use opiate pain killers responsibly, and marijuana apparently isn't legal there unless prescribed. I honestly have no idea what cali's laws are on that

DG806, i'm not blaming the police officers for doing what they think is right, but i do suspect in the troubled economy they are trying harder to charge people with something. she's kicked the addiction, and the doctor who prescribed it is still in practice even though he was breaking federal law to refill the meds. i'm not sure of your situation exactly, and i do feel for anyone who's gone through this, but when the doctors aren't held accountable for what they've done, its like a classic scenario where police bust people for buying drugs instead of going after the dealer - after all, 10 arrests for buyers doesn't look as good on paper as 1 arrest for the dealer. IMO the path is set for this doctor to screw up someone elses life, and even though i can and have proven that laws were broken by him, nobody is concerned.

But the didn't arrest her for having or taking it, they arrested her for forgery. So they didn't bust her for buying the drugs but for faking other peoples signatures. If it was just for buying the drugs i'd definitely feel for what you are saying.

So was her probation being busted over them finding the pot or over her "pissing hot" ?

 

[suncloud]

ah that sucks. Although this sounds horrible in its own way, if she is jailed again over breaking probation, is there any way you can leverage the health care provided to inmates to get it taken care of? Sounds horrible in a way, but if it works, it works. Not saying to get jailed just for that purpose, but if she's getting jailed anyhow...

i wish they'd do that. i'll have to ask around. its looking around 200k worth of surgeries to fix these issues.

No, because honestly she's still responsible for her own actions. Lots of people use opiate pain killers responsibly, and marijuana apparently isn't legal there unless prescribed. I honestly have no idea what cali's laws are on that

the marijuana was prescribed, but apparently, while on probation, you have to clear a prescription for a new medication through the court system first. we were unaware of this because as i said, her probation was revoked. bleh. old prescriptions are fine though....

So was her probation being busted over them finding the pot or over her "pissing hot" ?

over finding the pot. her counselor in adult recovery said that in her case, medical marijuana was a better alternative than the opiates. apparently the probation officer (the head one) had a different view, which she told us yesterday. even though her probation officer (the subordinate) knew she had a prescription for pot, nobody bothered mentioning that she had to take additional steps to clear it through the court system, so the arrest was totally out of the blue, like they preferred to arrest her instead of pointing her in the right direction. that's what really has me frustrated.

 

[EasyEJL]

even though her probation officer(the subordinate) knew she had a prescription, nobody bothered mentioning that she had to take additional steps to clear it through the court system, so the arrest was totally out of the blue, like they preferred to arrest her instead of pointing her in the right direction. that's what really has me frustrated.

ah it makes better sense now, that does suck. I dunno tho, what i've found over time is that with things like this, worry about (or being angered about) why doesn't really help. You can never tell what others motivations are anyhow, and its just as likely that the probation officers are overworked like crazy and just don't think of everything they need to tell people on probation, but have no choice but to report what they see or its their job on the line.

Not that any of that helps. So do you know whats going to happen to her over the violation?

and going back here

How hard will it be to do police investigations when the general public no longer trusts the police to uphold what the law was intended to do? Is this just a sign of bad economic times, where the police have to harass people to make their cities some money, and has the law failed those who it was designed to protect?

You really can't ever enforce laws based on intent. Because if you ask 100 people what the intent of the law was, you'll likely get 99 different answers (although many will be similar). There will then be cries of discrimination, etc.

Really most people don't trust the police all that much. If you look around you, something like 99% of americans are lawbreakers in one way shape or form. Whether it be just speeding, a single illegally downloaded mp3, etc. So part of the fear and distrust of police comes from concern that you might get nailed for what laws you have broken I think.

 

[suncloud]

ah it makes better sense now, that does suck. I dunno tho, what i've found over time is that with things like this, worry about (or being angered about) why doesn't really help. You can never tell what others motivations are anyhow, and its just as likely that the probation officers are overworked like crazy and just don't think of everything they need to tell people on probation, but have no choice but to report what they see or its their job on the line.

Not that any of that helps. So do you know whats going to happen to her over the violation?

i guess. its small comfort though - the kids watched the coroner come for their dad, so loosing their mom for any point in time is going to be hell on their psyche. i wish the court system would realize we're trying to do everything right, and this was not the right decision to make.

You really can't ever enforce laws based on intent. Because if you ask 100 people what the intent of the law was, you'll likely get 99 different answers (although many will be similar). There will then be cries of discrimination, etc.

Really most people don't trust the police all that much. If you look around you, something like 99% of americans are lawbreakers in one way shape or form. Whether it be just speeding, a single illegally downloaded mp3, etc. So part of the fear and distrust of police comes from concern that you might get nailed for what laws you have broken I think.

i very rarely break the law - i do download songs (i'll admit when i'm guilty), but damned, i don't do anything else. i've held a TS-SCI/TK/G clearance in service, and i did try out for police academy in july where i tore my ACL. i've had a fairly positive view of law enforcement, but IMO it seems like they're pushing the envelope with fines and jail to make the cities the money that they can no longer get from property taxes. not that i guess there's anything wrong with it legally, but it doesn't help generate trust or civilian cooperation. maybe i'm just nuts though.


its my impression that these excess tickets are forced on the police by city councilors, who don't take into consideration how much harder of a job peace officers have when trying to conduct investigations where they have to rely on civilians.

 

[EasyEJL]

Yeah, I definitely wouldn't want to be in that situation for sure. So is she going back in? or has that not been decided yet?

 

[suncloud]

Yeah, I definitely wouldn't want to be in that situation for sure. So is she going back in? or has that not been decided yet?

she was hauled off last night, and she won't see a judge till friday, so nobody has a clue. i'm just depressed and trying to fight off this nasty nicotine cravings i'm having. anyways, thanks for listening man, i do appreciate it.

 

[dg806]

she was hauled off last night, and she won't see a judge till friday, so nobody has a clue. i'm just depressed and trying to fight off this nasty nicotine cravings i'm having. anyways, thanks for listening man, i do appreciate it.

Hang in there SC! I beleieve things always happen for a reason. Weather or not we know what those reasons are, we have to have faith that everything will work out in the end!

 

[Teg]

Hey SC Im here man.... Im saddend to hear whats been goin on

You know im backin ya from were your coming from! I can see your POV VERY VERY well my friend and im hoping that "they" will come to an understanding with the situation. Your a strong man bro, and i believe your doing the right thing!

Keep us updated bro, or atleast me...
You and your family(especially her) are in my nitely prayers bro!

 

[suncloud]

Hey SC Im here man.... Im saddend to hear whats been goin on

You know im backin ya from were your coming from! I can see your POV VERY VERY well my friend and im hoping that "they" will come to an understanding with the situation. Your a strong man bro, and i believe your doing the right thing!

Keep us updated bro, or atleast me...
You and your family(especially her) are in my nitely prayers bro!

thanks. i'm going to head off to the probation officers office today, and have her put what she said in writing - that opiates (synthetic heroin) are better for an opiate addict than medical marijuana.

 

[Teg]

thanks. i'm going to head off to the probation officers office today, and have her put what she said in writing - that opiates (synthetic heroin) are better for an opiate addict than medical marijuana.

O good call bro! Ya have that ish ALL in writing, especially if this was to see court time. It would give a better understanding to the judge and not just hearsay!!!

GL Bradda!!!!

 

[suncloud]

O good call bro! Ya have that ish ALL in writing, especially if this was to see court time. It would give a better understanding to the judge and not just hearsay!!!

GL Bradda!!!!

brotha, if i had any idea where the probation officer was coming from, i wouldn't be as bothered, but her standpoint makes no sense. medical marijuana is a newer thing though. even though its been around for a few years, it was still a federal crime for distributing marijuana until february of this year.

 

[Harry Manback]

All I can say is you're a good man for sticking by her. My now ex-girlfriend left me at the height of my addiction. When I finally decided to kick it, she was gone. Not only did I have to deal with withdrawels, but the emptyness she left me with.

Light will eventually shine at the end of this tunnel. Whatever happens, you most likely are her back bone. Just knowing you have someone there for you can sometimes be the fine line between giving in or the will to carry on. It's in the face of controversy, that our courage defines our character. Stay strong.

 

[Teg]

brotha, if i had any idea where the probation officer was coming from, i wouldn't be as bothered, but her standpoint makes no sense. medical marijuana is a newer thing though. even though its been around for a few years, it was still a federal crime for distributing marijuana until february of this year.

I dont see were there coming from either. What gets me just like it does you is the whole not knowing about taking the steps to "clear" it when as far as yall knew it was forfit when probation was revoked. That and like ya said, no one told you, so how was you supost to know? They can always play ignorance of the law card if they want to i guess?

But ya, seems no one is out to help anyone anymore. Regardless of padding there pockets or the economy. No one seems to have that "care" anymore! Ill end that there tho cause ill go on a rant! :laugh:

 

[suncloud]

All I can say is you're a good man for sticking by her. My now ex-girlfriend left me at the height of my addiction. When I finally decided to kick it, she was gone. Not only did I have to deal with withdrawels, but the emptyness she left me with.

Light will eventually shine at the end of this tunnel. Whatever happens, you most likely are her back bone. Just knowing you have someone there for you can sometimes be the fine line between giving in or the will to carry on. It's in the face of controversy, that our courage defines our character. Stay strong.

i appreciate that man. she's really been through a lot, and she can't get medical insurance because of her age and what she needs and has had done :
- bulging disc that requires replacing the disc
- hysterectomy still needs to be taken care of
- lump on her thyroid needs to be removed - dad has hashimoto's disease, and he mom has graves disease (both thyroid related).

past medical history :
- allergic to penicillin (stops breathing)
- allergic to bee stings (anafalactic shock)
- allergic to morphine (stops breathing)
- gall bladder removed
- pancreas removed
- 2 c-sections
- husband died (post partum depression)
- addicted to opiates
- neurotomy in her neck (tried to kill the nerves)
- corticosteroid injection for her neck (less than a month ago)

as you can see, one look at these factors, and insurance says no frikken way. she's a great girl though when she's not on opiates, which is why we went the medical marijuana route. its a little frustrating having the probation officer say one thing, and two doctors saying that looking at the x-rays there's a valid medical problem. this should all play out in our favor, but i hate not having her here.

thanks for your input brotha, and congratulations on recovering - addiction is a nasty thing.

 

[suncloud]

I dont see were there coming from either. What gets me just like it does you is the whole not knowing about taking the steps to "clear" it when as far as yall knew it was forfit when probation was revoked. That and like ya said, no one told you, so how was you supost to know? They can always play ignorance of the law card if they want to i guess?

But ya, seems no one is out to help anyone anymore. Regardless of padding there pockets or the economy. No one seems to have that "care" anymore! Ill end that there tho cause ill go on a rant! :laugh:

that's what bothered me. her probation officer knew what was going on, and her councilor in adult recovery knew what was going on. the supervising councilor for lack of a better job description is the one with the issue. at no point did her councilor say "hey, just so you know, you have to do another step because you're on probation". while i understand that ignorance of the law is not an excuse on our part, they had multiple opportunities to say something, and decided that arresting her was a smarter idea, rather than pointing her in the right direction.

i thought councilors were supposed to offer guidance, but what do i know?

 

[Teg]

I personally think it just comes down to how much they care. Some ppl really do have a heart like yourself and wanna truly help as much as you can which in turn is why you care. But sad to say, most dont and wont go that "extra" for someone, even when THEY KNOW!

Trust me bro im behind ya 110%....

 

[suncloud]

I personally think it just comes down to how much they care. Some ppl really do have a heart like yourself and wanna truly help as much as you can which in turn is why you care. But sad to say, most dont and wont go that "extra" for someone, even when THEY KNOW!

Trust me bro im behind ya 110%....

and that's the issue. you would suspect that an organization in charge of helping people stay out of trouble with the law decided to do nothing. the letter of the law (minimum effort, what can we fine people for) versus the spirit of the law (lets point people in the right direction). i'll have the talk with the probation office and see if they can clarify their standpoint.

FYI, since you know some of these chemicals, when she was on fentynol, she was taking 2x100mcg patches every 48 hours, if that gives you an idea of how high her tolerance to opiates is. oxycontin was 600mg per day. then she tried fentynol (200mcg) + dilaudid 8mgx10. and that doesn't include the neurontin (skeletal relaxer), valium, lunesta, prozac, ativan or the other 1 med she was on, which i have forgotten about.

i find it very difficult for a probation office to look at her old doses and recommend she go back to them instead of marijuana. its the old misconception that a doctor can't be wrong, and prescription medicine is 100% safe. i think only a person that has dosed some of those meds can understand how incredibly powerful they are - textbook information doesn't really come close.

 

[Teg]

and that's the issue. you would suspect that an organization in charge of helping people stay out of trouble with the law decided to do nothing. the letter of the law (minimum effort, what can we fine people for) versus the spirit of the law (lets point people in the right direction). i'll have the talk with the probation office and see if they can clarify their standpoint.

FYI, since you know some of these chemicals, when she was on fentynol, she was taking 2x100mcg patches every 48 hours, if that gives you an idea of how high her tolerance to opiates is. oxycontin was 600mg per day. then she tried fentynol (200mcg) + dilaudid 8mgx10. and that doesn't include the neurontin (skeletal relaxer), valium, lunesta, prozac, ativan or the other 1 med she was on, which i have forgotten about.

i find it very difficult for a probation office to look at her old doses and recommend she go back to them instead of marijuana. its the old misconception that a doctor can't be wrong, and prescription medicine is 100% safe. i think only a person that has dosed some of those meds can understand how incredibly powerful they are - textbook information doesn't really come close.

Yes you would think that for sure, but its sad to say things like this happen all the time just cause of the lack of caring, regardless of why! Her own circamstance with the prior history should show them that this woman is in some serious need of help(PK wise) so that she would be able to live a somewhat normal life!

It goes without saying that some who who can take 200mcgs of Fentanyl every 48hrs is in pain and then to top it off slams down Dilaudid at 8mgs x10 is just insane not to mention the Oxy and Neuros! That right there is enough to make someone go nutz! I have just as high pain tolerence as i do for PKers and i was taking 2mg Liquid Dilaudid in the hospital and Fentanyl when i got out. So for her to take about what, 5or6x what i do/did is just nutz! I feel for her i really do and i can see how someone can get that "addiciton" to them. But its sad really that someone whos supost to be there as you said to help you does not, and yet does the oppisite just cause they can. Not even a warning ahead of time. It all smells like a bunch of BS to me, but hey who am i to say right, im not the law? :rant2:

And yes text book info is a bunch of non understable words untill you have to go through it. Its like telling lil timmy dont put your hand on the stove its hot and will burn you and it will hurt extremely bad, when he has never felt it. Somethings can just not be put into words so that another can understand that has never been "through it"....

For what its worth, at this point every lil bit helps IMO so I told my parents to keep you, her and your family in their prayers as well! :thumbsup:

 

[suncloud]

not to mention she's smaller than you, so the doses are higher on a pound for pound basis. she is 5'11" and was 126 lbs. if you take away her implants, she's naturally cruising at 120 lbs. i mean anyone with a brain could see the opiates were killing her, yet the probation office tells me that so long as her prescriptions don't change, its no problem what she's on - if its doctor approved, there's no problem. its only the new stuff that has to be cleared - so going back to her lethal doses, which caused her to loose a ton of weight and kill her appetite are OK. that's the issue i'm not understanding. i'm thinking of recording the conversation with the probation office on my cell phone and submitting the transcript to the local newspaper.

 

[Teg]

not to mention she's smaller than you, so the doses are higher on a pound for pound basis. she is 5'11" and was 126 lbs. if you take away her implants, she's naturally cruising at 120 lbs. i mean anyone with a brain could see the opiates were killing her, yet the probation office tells me that so long as her prescriptions don't change, its no problem what she's on - if its doctor approved, there's no problem. its only the new stuff that has to be cleared - so going back to her lethal doses, which caused her to loose a ton of weight and kill her appetite are OK. that's the issue i'm not understanding. i'm thinking of recording the conversation with the probation office on my cell phone and submitting the transcript to the local newspaper.

Ya! Pd for Pd she has me beat by a long shot, and ya, what she was on at that amount is enough to kill a horse x2! So really at that amount, thats what shes doing is killing herself. Its no wonder shes up and down all the time. Someone with half a brain could see that as long as they had some common sense and care!

Recording it sounds like a great idea,,, but you mite have to let them know you are doing it just like a Police Officer(double standard there to me). And i would also let one of your news channels know. Here in idaho we have a channel that wants ppl to call/write in about probs there having in the community with buisness's, gov., PPL, ETC........

 

[suncloud]

Recording it sounds like a great idea,,, but you mite have to let them know you are doing it just like a Police Officer(double standard there to me). And i would also let one of your news channels know. Here in idaho we have a channel that wants ppl to call/write in about probs there having in the community with buisness's, gov., PPL, ETC........

yep. in california its illegal to record a conversation without letting them know first. that's from a court standpoint, and admitting evidence. we do have a news station here that covers some of these issues, so we'll see what happens

 

[Teg]

yep. in california its illegal to record a conversation without letting them know first. that's from a court standpoint, and admitting evidence. we do have a news station here that covers some of these issues, so we'll see what happens

Well like i said bro keep us posted on what happens! This is good place to vent mang, you know this