Terrorism anyone?

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    Originally posted by SirSavageX


    I'm sure he would do just that if he could be of any help, but he is not a trained soldier. It is not a job delegated to him. His job, among others, is to be the top commander of the military, NOT participate. He, nor any of our presidents, enjoyed or made the decision lightly to go to war (and actually, that's not even a power of the president). It's never a pleasant thing when deaths occur.


    So his job is to basically tell others to go over there and defend the country he runs and it may cost them their lives and inevitably it will cost many their lives. Sounds like a dictator to me. Bus enjoys war. He jumps at every chance he gets to ship some troops out. Maybe someone could explain this to him if he would listen.

    We have an all volunteer military force. Those guys and gals knew exactly what the military was for when they signed up; they knew there was a chance that something could happen, and they would have to go to war. They accepted this fact when they enlisted. There is no dilusion here. They signed up to fight for our country.


    So ****'em right? They're not educated enough to attend college, wealthy enough to start a business, disciplined enough to hold a job. Oh well, we'll **** there ass to Irag and make them fight for us. The way this ****ty government is ran, the military is the only way people can afford to live anymore. If you dont go to college, you might as well join the Army. Everyone of my friends joined out of high school. No one here can afford to go to college nor have the grades. So thats their ONLY option if they wish to live.



    Nothing justifies it? What about self-defense? Isn't defending your national interests self-defense? If something threatens the lives or well-being of a government's citizens, then they are justified to protect them by whatever means necessary. This is very unfortunate, but, occasionally it gets to this point. But, the one provoking the action, in this case Iraq and/or terrorists, is to blame.


    NOTHING justifys taking someone's life.Who are YOU to take another life? Life is the ultimate price to pay. Defending your interests by murdering someone, sounds kind of cruel to me. Theres no better way to work things out? Or is the other way too time consuming and it would be much easier just to kill them as negostiate and maybe have to sacrifice something. Ok now wait..... you say "occasionally it gets to this point" So why are you pissed thousands of people died in NY? The US government listens and pays attention now right? SO that had to be done to get their attention, so maybe it wasnt really a tragedy huh? (I hope a lot of people hate me after this one )




    The playing field isn't fair, nor will it ever be, with those kind of actions. How can an organization commit an atrocity such as that, and run back into hiding? That's not very fair, is it?


    You have to hide when you have 1K troops and not allowed to posess missles, airplanes, etc. The Afghan nation isnt poor by anymeans, they can afford a military, but the US sanctions wont allow them to do so, that seems fair huh?

    And we have not oppressed countries. We promote capitalism and democracy. I fail to see how we oppress when we promote freedom.


    Promote freedom? Riiiight. To what extent and to whom? Dont believe everything you see on TV. Look at all the countries we have sanctions against and wont allow them to do things ON THEIR OWN GOD DAMN GROUNDS. Promote capitalism, thats the first problem right there.....



    Who says those bases are necessarily for attack? Sure, if the need arose, they would be used for attack, but did it ever occur that maybe those bases are there because the people of the respective countries want them there? Prince Sultan AirBase is in Saudi Arabia because the Saudis want their borders protected.


    I think in real life we all know why those bases are there, regardless of what our government preaches, we know why they're there. Just like Cuba denying that Russia sent tons after tons of weapons there to house, we all know they're full of ****...

    [qouote]If the governments of those nations did not want us there, we would not be there. And we would not bomb them just because they didn't want us there.[/quote]

    No we wouldnt, but you better bet your sweet as there would be "sanctions" against that country. You know thats the truth. Any country who doesnt agree with us, we sanction, Seems so childish to me. Such a big mouth on such a little man leading this country.



    Bush is not responsible for the actions of irrational extremists who have no regard for human life. Personal responsibility. You take responsibility for your own actions.


    Isnt that Anarchy? I believe so.

    Bush may be making more extremists mad by taking a hardline approach to terrorism, but what's the alternative? Ignoring it? Talking it out? No, they want to kill us, kill the "Great Satan". Unfortunately, what it's basically come down to, is us or them.


    Thats what they want you to believe. I think our national defense is good enough where no one's going to enter our country and take over. So mind your own business and concentrate on the country you lead is what I say. They dont want us killed, they want HIM killed.

    Sure, we've misused them. As I said, we've made mistakes. We were the first to develop and test the bomb, so we found out, firsthand, exactly why others SHOULDN'T develop them.


    You jsut said above: "have me misused them, no" Why shouldnt they? Because they're capable of mass destruction? So why do we continue to produce them and become interested in them?

    Yes, a country can defend itself without a nuke. We did just fine defending ourselves after Pearl Harbor, and so did Japan. We used the bomb to save the lives of hundreds of thousands of our men. Us or them. So much for our administrations not caring about our soldiers.


    Still doesnt answer why we have them and continue to have them in production. Maybe Bush is afraid oneday he'll have to reap what he sows huh?


    Something was bound to happen sooner or later, but we didn't "have it coming". It was an atrocity, and for what? What did they prove? That they're raving lunatics who have no regard for the lives of others?


    We had it coming, just as we had pearl harbor coming. You act like a dick to people, you're going to get your ass blind isded eventually, this also applies in war. I dont doubt those actions were ignorant and uncalled for, but you gotta do what you gotta do. If thats the only way this country will listen (and it obviously is) then its up to you, but like I said before, it sure in the hell doesnt justify killing thousands......



    What do you mean, against who? You made a statement to the effect of "we are taking away the powers of others to defend themselves", and I said no we're not, N. Korea can defend itself just fine without nukes.


    I wont touch this, this is too grey for me and you as well. Neither of us know the true capabilities of another countries military. sure on the news it makes N. Korea out to be some type of powerhouse and a country to fear, but thats only designed to make the American people happy when we go over there and kill a few of them.


    There is something wrong with N. Korea having nukes, because they are anti-U.S., and extreme. Nukes+extremists=bad news.


    Wonder why they're anti-US? Im sick of everyone taking our governments side because this is where we live. People are scared ****less to speak out and oppose something. I for one wont live my lifei n the dark being told what to do and what to believe in. N. Korea hates us, big ****ing deal. I dont give a **** that they're making nukes, what are they going to do? Throw them over here? We obviously did something to piss them off, let them makes nukes, we have some. Why can we have them and not N. Korea? Thats a big advancement for that country, so be it.


    Dude, please tell me you didn't just say this. We used a nuke, and BTW, a very weak nuke compared to today's nukes, to end a very long, very serious, and very costly war. We wanted to end it without having to lose anymore of our boys.


    Thats great. For countries like N. Korea who dont have a booming economy, they makes nukes to end a costly war before it starts, nothing wrong with that in my eyes.

    WTF does N. Korea need to use a nuke for???? They don't. There is no war where the fate of the world hangs in the balance, like there was when we used it.


    You're being such a typical American. What does anyone need a ****ing nuke for? You never answered my question anyways....why can we have them, but no one else? No one needs them. But if they make them, fine, leave them alone and maybe they wont use them ON YOU. Why do people need handguns? Self-Defense brother.


    If everyone is sick of our ****, then why are they backing us if Saddam does not comply?


    Because if they dont, they'll get the dreaded sanctions.

    When have we ever gone and started a war just to start a war?


    Desert storm, and thats the only one in my lifetime. But the way it sounds (not from anyone's standpoint, nor our Govt. or any other) We have participated in wars where we didnt belong in the past.

    There may have been terrorist attacks, we just may not know of them. We rarely hear of the ones that are thwarted


    I think you would hear about little Judy farting in church these day and age.

    Clinton had an oppurtunity to bring Bin Ladin in from the Sudanese, but he DECLINED, stating that there was not enough evidence. Maybe he was too busy getting it on with interns to see how important this issue was.


    Yea maybe but Im not getting on the issue of extra marital affairs, its not my business nor your's. Clinton was actually rational, didnt look forward to war, didnt like sending OUR brother and sisters and mothers and fathers to foreign countries to be miserable and potentially die. And for what? Die for ****in what? A flag with your name on it? **** that.


    What's better, taking a hardline approach to terrorism and fighting it, or letting them kill us? I'd prefer the former.
    Id prefer minding our own business and avoiding it all together.

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    Originally posted by SirSavageX


    Nope, capitalism and democracy allows you to do basically whatever you want as far as taking a direction in life and earning a living. If you want to work at McDonald's, you can do that. If you want to start your own company, you can do that. If you want to go to college and study ancient Mycenean culture, you can do that.


    We all know in capitalism the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, there needs no explaination on this topic.

    My family used to be dirt-poor Georgia trailer trash, but we turned our bar of lead into gold. Anyone can do it.


    Well please do tell the secret. Sure sounds easy huh? Its hard to do it when theres no money avaliable to do so. Things arent free.

    As an example of what REAL oppression is, one of my former professors is Chinese. He was tested by the government, and TOLD what field he was to go into. He had no choice.
    Yea that sucks, in anarchy you wouldnt have that. Capitalism here also portrays what you will be doing. If you ave a middle class family and obove, your options are endless. Live in lower class WV you will join the army, kill yourself or work at a coal mine for petty change a day. Coal mining, ever done it? I have. No why you're doing it? To keeo this beautiful country running and for what? $17K a year on the average, what a beautiful place.
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    Originally posted by Bobo
    How many of you have studied History or Political Science as an undergrad/post-graduate concentration? I see so many inaccuracies here its mindboggling and there are just too many too correct. The Clinton argument is the most ridiculous notion I've ever heard. I won't go into to it because I could write a book on it. I would like to know how Bush unlawfully used force or violence against anyone or group for the purpose of intimidation to coerce ideological or political gains (definition of terrorism if you didn't know).


    If you refuse to go into it, I dont think thats a fair statement to make then man. I have only studied history in high school (which I failed because I refused to be force fed bull****. Its like the Book "Hard Times" by Charles Dickens....You're conditioned to believe things, Id like to make my own choices and form my own opinions.) I dont have to be educated in the history of our country to understand politics.

    YJ you know this is never personal but most anti-government proponents preach nothing but complete garbage. Its a refuge for those too lazy to think rationally and full of emotionally driven people with clouded judgements based on complete paranoia. Anarchy produces death of culture, people and everything surrounding it.


    Is it? Whats wrong with questioning the actions of the people who's salary you pay? Am I the only ones who sees a problem with this? Not questioning something is garbage, I think SSX will agree. How do you know Anarchy produces the death fo a nation? Ever been in anarchy? Nope. Sure you can form an opinion about it, and I'll form one of my own too.
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    Originally posted by Bobo


    Would you like to live in Finland where 65% of your paycheck goes to the government? This is just one example. If your wondering, the US takes the least.
    Dontk now if thasts true, but you're a good man, so I'll take your word for it. But the least to me being a WV resident is an awful lot. I could use that extra $$$. Im helping house and feed people who truly arent that worse off than myself. I just refuse to jump on welfare and ride it because thats not what I believe in. Take the most, least, whatever but to some people, thats a lot.
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    Originally posted by Bobo


    3. Foget it, I'm too damn tired...You got me thinking though YJ. You accomplished your goal...Time to hit the sack.

    My goal was to piss as many people off as possible and to have the lowest number of people liking me after this. But with that said, I expect respect from it because Ive done my research and just because I dont agree with the ways of this nation doesnt make me and lesser than anyone. But I bet if I said "damn, Id like to kill Geaorge Bush" Damnit my ass would be in jail until I rot away....but if Geaorge Bush said "Damn, Id like to kill Bryan Johnson (me)" Everyone would laugh their asses off and let it pass.....that fair? No. What has this piece of **** done that I havent? I run a gym in lower class WV. WE have the fattest, poorest state in the nation. Why run a gym in WV? No one wants to workout obviously, I must be out of my mind. I choose to stay here and provide a place for those who want help to get help. If they want to change their lives, you either choose my gym or not gym. Theres not another one around. I might be going in debt and be forced to sell very soon, but if I save 1 obese person's life, its worth the money Im loosing. Now you tell me what hes done for YOU and the American people, besides ship your friends and family off to fight for HIS cause.
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    Im hoping to post so many times in a row, everyone just says aw **** it, YJ's right
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    Originally posted by YellowJacket
    Im hoping to post so many times in a row, everyone just says aw **** it, YJ's right
    I don't think I can let that happen. I will get a point across if I think one needs to be made. I will be here as well. When the rest are dead and long forgotten, I will still remember and be here till the job is done.
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    Anarchism is a political theory which aims to create a society in which individuals freely co-operate together as equals without political, economic or social hierarchies. Anarchism essentially seeks to create a classless, stateless society, free of oppression and exploitation, that is organized and held together by the four principles; individual freedom, social and economic equality, free association, and mutual aid (i.e. cooperation and solidarity).

    Tell me whats so wrong with that??

    Anarchy does not mean chaos, crime, destruction or havoc. To the contrary, these have been the characteristics of political and economic hierarchies throughout history. One of the most common critiques of anarchism is that people "naturally" require hierarchal structures to govern society. However, every single hierarchal structure throughout history has burned to rubble. Not a single government nor empire has lasted more than a few hundred years. People have always rebelled against governments and hierarchal structures. Perhaps this is an obvious indication that people cannot sustain a natural equilibrium within society as long as hierarchy exists because as history has shown us, people will ALWAYS naturally rebel against them.
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    My god YJ. That is the utopian defenition of anarchy- just like people in other countries believe that we are the utopian defenition of Democracy. People can NEVER live in peace with eachother and cooperate; you say that anarchy is not chaos but I beg to differ. Sure we have our own laws, but what's to stop someone from saying "murder is not a crime in my government," and going on a killing spree?

    1. People like to have order- It's true that people disagree with the government a lot; but they still couldn't make it without them. How many people would revert to crime if anarchy existed, think about it. With no chance of getting in trouble, how many would do whatever they want.

    2. Without a government, and with anarchy, what will happen to all of the nuclear weapons and other technoligical advances that we have now? They will be used however people deem fit.

    3. Eventually someone WILL become dicatator- Eventually someone will gather up enough people and become dicatator. This only makes sense, because people will want control of the world- it's human nature. So no government will turn into a dictatorship.

    Remember, YJ, Anarchy mean chaos- why? Because on paper it looks good, but in men's hearts they could never live without order.
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    Originally posted by Big H
    My god YJ. That is the utopian defenition of anarchy- just like people in other countries believe that we are the utopian defenition of Democracy. People can NEVER live in peace with eachother and cooperate; you say that anarchy is not chaos but I beg to differ. Sure we have our own laws, but what's to stop someone from saying "murder is not a crime in my government," and going on a killing spree?


    People go on killing sprees today. People will always kill people. There will always be murder. Do you blame murder in this day and age on the government? Hell no. Murder has nothing to do with government. Sure without punishment there would be more murder, but in Anarchy there would be far less reasons to want someone dead. The frustration level of being poor would be much less.

    1. People like to have order- It's true that people disagree with the government a lot; but they still couldn't make it without them. How many people would revert to crime if anarchy existed, think about it. With no chance of getting in trouble, how many would do whatever they want.


    Again, beat the dead horse. How do you know? Ever lived in an Anarchist society? No. So you can make such a out of bounds generelization. I dont like order. I have friends who dont like order. I could make it without a government. Anarchy does not lead to crime. Like I said before, the government structure doesnt have anything to do with crime. Your points arent really worth debating.

    2. Without a government, and with anarchy, what will happen to all of the nuclear weapons and other technoligical advances that we have now? They will be used however people deem fit.


    Once again, people and countries can and will use these weapons of mass destruction regardless of government structutre. The inevitablility of every non 3rd world country having nukes us apparent,. regardless of our government structure.

    3. Eventually someone WILL become dicatator- Eventually someone will gather up enough people and become dicatator. This only makes sense, because people will want control of the world- it's human nature. So no government will turn into a dictatorship.


    Then this will no longer be an anarchist society. There is no dictator in society. We have communist dictator ship now. And again, you make a terrible generalization. I dont want to rule the world, I would like to be left alone to do the things I deem necessary to live a happy life. These are merely your opinions H.

    [/b]Remember, YJ, Anarchy mean chaos- why? Because on paper it looks good, but in men's hearts they could never live without order. [/B]
    Anarchy doesnt mean chaos, did you fail to read the definition above or are you too hard headed in your own beliefs? Sure it looks good on paper, just as democracy does. Everything looks good on paper. Do you think we have a democracy now like it was drawn up? Ha, no way. This country is full of oppressed, miserable people and its only getting worse. There's regualtions on everything these days, the government is playing you and yourl ife as they want and there's nothing you can do about it. I could live without order. Anarchy isnt how its portrayed on TV, duh. Anarchy is having no social classes, etc. Do a little more research next time.

    And tell me H, would you die for your country?
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    Originally posted by YellowJacket
    Im hoping to post so many times in a row, everyone just says aw **** it, YJ's right
    Yeah. I'm just not in the mood anymore. Give me some time because I know the posts will be extremely long.


    That definition of Anarchy is not the real definition. Its a hybrid.
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    Little tidbit for you:

    "The best exponent of anarchist philosophy in ancient Greece was Zeno (342-267 or 270 BC), from Crete, the founder of the Stoic philosophy, who distinctly opposed his conception of a free community without government to the state-utopia of Plato. He repudiated the omnipotence of the state, its intervention and regimentation, and proclaimed the sovereignty of the moral law of the individual - remarking already that, while the necessary instinct of self-preservation leads man to egotism, nature has supplied a corrective to it by providing man with another instinct - that of sociability. When men are reasonable enough to follow their natural instincts, they will unite across the frontiers and constitute the cosmos. They will have no need of law-courts or police, will have no temples and no public worship, and use no money - free gifts taking the place of the exchanges. Unfortunately, the writings of Zeno have not reached us and are only known through fragmentary quotations. However, the fact that his very wording is similar to the wording now in use, shows how deeply is laid the tendency of human nature of which he was the mouthpiece.

    In medieval times we find the same views on the state expressed by the illustrious bishop of Alba, Marco Girolamo Vida, in his first dialogue De dignitate reipublicae (Ferd. Cavalli, in Mem. dell'Istituto Veneto, xiii.; Dr E. Nys, Researches in the History of Economics). But it is especially in several early Christian movements, beginning with the ninth century in Armenia, and in the preachings of the early Hussites, particularly Chojecki, and the early Anabaptists, especially Hans Denk (cf. Keller, Ein Apostel der Wiedertaufer), that one finds the same ideas forcibly expressed - special stress being laid of course on their moral aspects.

    It was Godwin, in his Enquiry concerning Political Justice (2 vols., 1793), who was the first to formulate the political and economical conceptions of anarchism, even though he did not give that name to the ideas developed in his remarkable work. Laws, he wrote, are not a product of the wisdom of our ancestors: they are the product of their passions, their timidity, their jealousies and their ambition. The remedy they offer is worse than the evils they pretend to cure. If and only if all laws and courts were abolished, and the decisions in the arising contests were left to reasonable men chosen for that purpose, real justice would gradually be evolved. As to the state, Godwin frankly claimed its abolition. A society, he wrote, can perfectly well exist without any government: only the communities should be small and perfectly autonomous. Speaking of property, he stated that the rights of every one 'to every substance capable of contributing to the benefit of a human being' must be regulated by justice alone: the substance must go 'to him who most wants it'. His conclusion was communism. Godwin, however, had not the courage to maintain his opinions. He entirely rewrote later on his chapter on property and mitigated his communist views in the second edition of Political Justice (8vo, 1796).



    On paper it doesn't sound as bad. Neither did Marxism. In fact Marxism and Communism before it was converted into Stalinism was more humane and fair to the public than capitalsim will ever be. But it also shows how one can distort something without any law present. I know you said you don't need to understand the history behind concepts to understand them. I think you do. History shapes the way your feel about things in the present. Understanding that always helps in understanding what you really feel.
    Last edited by Dwight Schrute; 01-10-2003 at 01:52 PM.
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    Put that in your pipe............and smoke it!
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    Ah, enter Bobo, the history buff. Well done.

    It appears to me, that another problem with anarchism, is that it assumes all men to be rational, and thus moral, and this just isn't the case. That is why it would lead to disaster. The irrational and/or power-hungry individuals would eventually fight and conquer each other, eventually leading to some sort of government. It's just the nature of man.

    I feel confident in the points I've made, so I respectfully bow out.

    BTW, YJ, the "secret" to succeeding in a capitalistic society, and how my family turned 180 degrees, is, put simply, hardwork and determination. The point is, that in a capitalistic society, you have the OPPORTUNITY to do what you want to do. Sure, it's hard to do certain things, but who ever said it was easy? In many other countries, you have NO opportunities. If you want to go to college, make good grades in high school, and get loans. Hell, you may even be able to get a scholarship. You can make things happen, it just depends on how bad you want it, and how hard you work for it.
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    Originally posted by SirSavageX
    Ah, enter Bobo, the history buff. Well done.

    It appears to me, that another problem with anarchism, is that it assumes all men to be rational, and thus moral, and this just isn't the case. That is why it would lead to disaster. The irrational and/or power-hungry individuals would eventually fight and conquer each other, eventually leading to some sort of government. It's just the nature of man.

    I feel confident in the points I've made, so I respectfully bow out.

    BTW, YJ, the "secret" to succeeding in a capitalistic society, and how my family turned 180 degrees, is, put simply, hardwork and determination. The point is, that in a capitalistic society, you have the OPPORTUNITY to do what you want to do. Sure, it's hard to do certain things, but who ever said it was easy? In many other countries, you have NO opportunities. If you want to go to college, make good grades in high school, and get loans. Hell, you may even be able to get a scholarship. You can make things happen, it just depends on how bad you want it, and how hard you work for it.
    Bump this. Basically stating what I said .

    YJ- You haven't lived in an anarchist soceity either- so I take it you can't make the same rational judgements. People would still kill, people would still steal and lie; but here they can do it without fear of punishment.
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    Originally posted by SirSavageX
    Ah, enter Bobo, the history buff. Well done.

    It appears to me, that another problem with anarchism, is that it assumes all men to be rational, and thus moral, and this just isn't the case. That is why it would lead to disaster. The irrational and/or power-hungry individuals would eventually fight and conquer each other, eventually leading to some sort of government. It's just the nature of man.

    Good point.

    BTW IMO Capitalism is similar to evolution.
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    Good job guys, Im impressed but you're all forgetting one thing..... if people are going to commit crimes and **** up now, they'll go to jail, pay a fine, etc. If you decide to kill someone, steal someone in an anarchist world, you'd better fear for your own life. I believe the anarchist system follows the golden rule, eye for an eye. I think the thought of sacrificing your life to take someone else's would make someone think twice. Now you can kill someone, go to jail for 10 years or so, be set free. In an anarchist world, you kill someone, its very likely your life will be taken by someone else as your punishment and I like that. To hell with judges and your "peers" judging you. Thats petty. You guys act like everyone would just go nuts without laws. If people wanted to go ape****, they would do it now. Laws just arent stiff enough. My parents were killed by a drunk driver, the murderer (a prominant lawyer, and politican) served a little over 6 years. For a ****ing double murder. Anyone want to know why? Because he's a hero in the community, he's a very well liked politician. But the real reason why is because he belongs to the highest of social classes and when you're a member of a high social class, you're exempt from most laws (Ie. All he coke head baseball players, OJ Simpson, Clinton, etc) You get at what Im saying. With Anarchy, social classes are eliminated and you're responsible for your own.

    And H, Im ignoring you for hte simple fact you're just in this to be a prick and bump what everyone else says. You are unable to form quality opinions for yourself so you really dont fit in this debate.
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    Eye for an eye yadda yadda blah blah blah

    I tell you what, anarchism comes along and i see a pretty girl(hypothetically) i take in my car rape and then drop her off somewhere. She don't know who i am , then she tells her friends who rape her themselves just for a good time and just to be jokingly cruel and know she can't do anything about it because all these guys are gang raping her with no one to defend her. Heh so what are you gonna do about that??


    This is just one example, and a rather crude one but this shows how out of control things can be.
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    Originally posted by pjorstad
    Eye for an eye yadda yadda blah blah blah

    I tell you what, anarchism comes along and i see a pretty girl(hypothetically) i take in my car rape and then drop her off somewhere. She don't know who i am , then she tells her friends who rape her themselves just for a good time and just to be jokingly cruel and know she can't do anything about it because all these guys are gang raping her with no one to defend her. Heh so what are you gonna do about that??


    You can rape a girl with our current government and get away with it if she doesnt know who you are. Are you thinking logically when you type or are you trying to be funny? This wasnt a very funny example and a piss poor hypothetical scenario. And you might think twice about raping her if shes packing a 9mm huh? Or if her dad is packing a 12 guage huh? Or if one of your friends decideds to be a MAN and realize what you're doing is wrong and he shoves a beer bottle up your ass. Anarchy is a mtter of maturity and the ability to handle yourself with infinate freedom. Its obvious I guess that not everyone could handle it.


    This is just one example, and a rather crude one but this shows how out of control things can be.
    For the 50th time. Things are out of control with our current government. Things will be out of control no matter what the government because you CANT please everyone, so why not let people have the freedom to please themselves? Like I said, lifes way to short and miserable to be confined to 1000s of rules and regulations.
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    Another point I would like to make, and this is a bit cruel, but how things need to be. It may seem I contradict myself here but if you pay attention its anything but.......


    I dont know if you've noticed or not but the gas prices are going up quite a bit once again and are considerably higher than the previous years. This is just ONE example of government abuse. I think its funny how the government (to "boost" economy) could raise the gas price to $4 a gallon and millions of ignorant, defenseless, stubborn Americans would pay it. For the simple fact "I have a job to do, I have to get back and forth to work". If everyone woul unite and say "**** you" and not go to work, what would this country do without us? Not a god damn thing. But noooo everyone bends over and takes it in the ass when **** like this happens, pathetic.

    Let me talk about "Leveling the playing field" All governors, politicans, law enforcement, etc have much more power than any of us could imagine. One is the point I made about gas prices above. Now there's just not enough rebels in our world today, our government as conditioned us to be weak and obediant. Thats bull****. I know I'll get in trouble for saying this, etc. but **** it, someone needs to. You think these law makers would continue to **** us and strip us of freedom if they were in fear of their lives if they were to do such a thing? If a few more people in this country would get some balls and stand up for THEIR rights in THEIR country and threaten or even further some of these people, thats leveling the playing field. Gas prices would not continue to rise, for the benefit of I dont know what, If the decision makers said "Damn, last week a senator was killed because he wanted to do...... whatever" Think about that. The gun is the power of the people. As long as it exists, WE ARE IN CONTROL. Barbaric huh? Thats life. And you wonder why more and more regulations are placed on gun possession. They know this. Arm the people! Arm the poor! Guns are OUR decision and law makers.
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    You can rape a girl with our current government and get away with it if she doesnt know who you are. Are you thinking logically when you type or are you trying to be funny? This wasnt a very funny example and a piss poor hypothetical scenario. And you might think twice about raping her if shes packing a 9mm huh? Or if her dad is packing a 12 guage huh? Or if one of your friends decideds to be a MAN and realize what you're doing is wrong and he shoves a beer bottle up your ass. Anarchy is a mtter of maturity and the ability to handle yourself with infinate freedom. Its obvious I guess that not everyone could handle it.

    Sure packing a gun solves everything. I could just as easily sneek up to her without her knowing and put a gun to her head and rape her.

    As far as getting away with it now, well its much more risky because cops are much more sophisticated in getting their perpetrators using evidence techniques and investigations and they can pick up a criminal just by stopping it for atraffic ticket.




    I really think YOU aren't thinking of this in a 3 dimensional way.
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    Originally posted by pjorstad



    Sure packing a gun solves everything. I could just as easily sneek up to her without her knowing and put a gun to her head and rape her.

    As far as getting away with it now, well its much more risky because cops are much more sophisticated in getting their perpetrators using evidence techniques and investigations and they can pick up a criminal just by stopping it for atraffic ticket.




    I really think YOU aren't thinking of this in a 3 dimensional way.
    Packing one sovles my problems. Actually it prevents mine. You point a gun at her and rape her.....then you better NEVER leave you house again......because YOU will be next. That simple.
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    Point is you have infinite freedom under ANY government, the only difference being the associated punishments derived from such personal actions/decisions. Government is only an attempt to "standardize" the punishment process, which in theory is "fair." The problem, however, lies in individual differentiations which taint the entire process.

    Different forms of government, of course, go about the standardization process in different manors, but all are plagued by imperfections, hence our human nature. To say one is better than the other is ludicrious! Obviously none will EVER be perfect so it inevitably comes down to the lesser of two evils.

    What form of government is implemented is obviously dictated by power and the most successful governments are entities that allow, at least seemingly even distribution of power among all social classes allowing for complacency and peace among the various sectors of the populous.

    Ahhh, I could go on and on, but most points have been made and I don't feel like reading through the ENTIRE thread! Not to mention I have loads of homework to work on myself!

    I don't want to get drawn deep into this debate either because noone can win in this short of thing, but all have made good points!
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    then you better NEVER leave you house again......because YOU will be next



    WHo says????

    She isn't a cop! I doubt that the resources could be used like a cop investiagation so chances are even slimmer that i would be caught. And as said before cops often stop people who are wanted or can stop suspects in cars. Who the hell would stop for a non cop in an anarchist governemtn?? Which brings up another point what about hit and runs where a gun don't mean jack and you may be too injured to get the license plate. Once again there is no COPS to find any suspected people and pull them over or any lengthy investigation to find the person.
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    So you're going to go around and rape defenseless girls out of the blue? Not likely. This isnt even something to be argued. Terrible hypothetical statement. I dont know where you live, but I live in rural WV and you couldnt get away with raping a girl here without someone knowing, let alone a big city or a medium sized city, not likely my friend.
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    I live in california buddy and i could have PLENTY of chances. Hell this isn't even about where you live. i could take a trip to yosemite and see a hot chick and well sneek in at night into her tent i don't know. Im just saying there will be an infinite amount of chances for things to go wrong.

    NOt only that but when someone does happen to find someone chances are they MIGHT get someone INNOCENT or overdue the punishment.

    People tend to overact and with emotions UNLIKE our current judicial system.

    I mean if you did something bad but not really bad would you want to get really hurt over it even if you didn't hurt anymore physically, but they are just really pissed off at you???
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    Originally posted by pjorstad
    I live in california buddy and i could have PLENTY of chances. Hell this isn't even about where you live. i could take a trip to yosemite and see a hot chick and well sneek in at night into her tent i don't im just saying there will be an infinite amount of chances for things to go wrong.

    Sounds to me like you've done this before. But you're missing the point once again, ok REAL slow this time.... You could do this right now! Yes! Today and not get caught! Government plays no rule in prevention only punishment once it happens. And you're going to get .. what? 10 years for raping a girl? Wow, big ****in deal. Now would you risk raping a girl if you knew if you were caught your ass would be shot through the skull? Not likely.
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    Hey man i got morals. I wouldn't do it whether it was legal or not but i still think it would get people with no concious to start doing it. Like i said chances are slim some vigilante will get you, even if its slim a cop could get you in some cases they have more man power and capabilities to search out so to speak or pick up people who may have done it"FBI TOP TEN is an extreme example.


    P.S WOuld i REALLY ADMIT it if i had done it, of course a man of my high moral attributes who only feeds fina through the ear and ONLY the ear of the HEIFFER as stated by law would NEVER commit such a crime if EVEN LEGAL.
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    Originally posted by YellowJacket

    And H, Im ignoring you for hte simple fact you're just in this to be a prick and bump what everyone else says. You are unable to form quality opinions for yourself so you really dont fit in this debate.
    Actually I made a good post and only bumped one post; I believe it was you who admitted to trying to piss us off eh?

    And what debate? You disregard common sense?
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    Originally posted by Big H


    Actually I made a good post and only bumped one post; I believe it was you who admitted to trying to piss us off eh?

    And what debate? You disregard common sense?

    Common sense? Ha. Thats cute coming from a 18 year old kid. Like I said, if you have nothing to add to this (which you obviously are clueless) please dont post. And actually your post wasnt good....you just tan in circles and re-addressed whats already been said...thats not difficult at all.
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    Cool


    Originally posted by YellowJacket



    Common sense? Ha. Thats cute coming from a 18 year old kid. Like I said, if you have nothing to add to this (which you obviously are clueless) please dont post. And actually your post wasnt good....you just tan in circles and re-addressed whats already been said...thats not difficult at all.
    Truth is I didn't read what was said, only your initial post and than my comment.

    Also, I doubt my age has anything to do with this; I don't understand why you insist on singling me out. I was trying to argue with you and you took it personally.
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    Originally posted by Big H


    Also, I doubt my age has anything to do with this; I don't understand why you insist on singling me out. I was trying to argue with you and you took it personally.

    Um....this is a debate, not an argument, big difference and I dont take the ****** you say personally, I dont even take it seriously.
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    Cool


    Originally posted by YellowJacket



    Um....this is a debate, not an argument, big difference and I dont take the ****** you say personally, I dont even take it seriously.
    Good one.
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    well...i have a question...i'm sorry if this has been brought up, but i didnt feel like going through all 4 pages of posts (the only long posts i can manage are ones including pictures )anarchy is supposedly all great and wonderful...eye for an eye, as YJ says...awesome, great...definition of anarchy courtesy of dictionary.com...

    1) Absence of any form of political authority.
    2) Political disorder and confusion.
    3) Absence of any cohesive principle, such as a common standard or purpose.

    ok, so eye for an eye...you kill someone, you're going to die...who is going to enforce your death? no government...so people related to the person you killed decide to kill you, which ends up pissing off your people, so they kill the other people...wow, ends up like a good killing fest...and who's to stop the stupid brutes from taking orders from a smarter, more cunning tactician who will ensure their survival, and consequently, the (let's call him the dictator for ****s and giggles) dictator can do as he pleases, and so consequently gets more dumb brutes on his side, cuz lord knows, they are at least smart enough not to want to die...and so he has more power...wow...now it isnt much of an anarchy, more like a dictatorship...i dont know, seems like it all has flaws due to human nature...*shrugs*...good job though YJ...you finally got people to talk, unlike your "the view" thread, hah...well done
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    Ha, thanks first off man...... glad you're finally jumping in....

    I dont think there's a set eye for an eye rule or what not, I personally feel thats how it would be. Like in the old days when things were beginning to be civil, no one killed over money or what shoes you wore. Everyone stuck together to insure they were surrounded by happy and successful people. The system would work more on fear than anything else. Would you commit a petty crine if you knew you'd have your ass beat? Not likely. It cracks me up that people think anarchy is pure chaos. Dont listen to everything you hear on TV. Could anarchy be chaos? Hell yea it could, but I think a lot of people underestimate the common sense that people have.
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    Alright, I know I said I'm bowing out, but I'm bowing back in. :P

    Originally posted by chosen5
    Point is you have infinite freedom under ANY government
    Are you sure?

    If a government is such that it places order and/or equality over freedom, then an individual is limited in the choices that he/she has. If one is limited in the choices available, do they have true infinite freedom?


    To say one is better than the other is ludicrious!
    Certainly not. I think we'd all agree that democracy is a hell of a lot better than an absolutist monarchy, totalitarianism, and communism.
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    Originally posted by SirSavageX

    Certainly not. I think we'd all agree that democracy is a hell of a lot better than an absolutist monarchy, totalitarianism, and communism.

    Communism....that reminds me.... Hows the PH ban coming along?
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    Originally posted by YellowJacket


    Are you? For how much longer? Do you just sit back and let them do what they want? Did you e-mail congress about the PH ban? Times are changing my friend.....

    Look at my sig man, jeez

    Quote me a post I made that said I believe what the Afghan. or Iraq or any other country's government says. If you'd actually go back and read, you'll see that I stated I dont stand for formalization of government, no matter who's it is. I cant believe wha every other government says, because I dont live there, you think our government will allow us to hear the views and thoughts and truths of other countries government? ha.

    [/b]

    Thats your opinion brother, and its appreciated, but I wouldnt call me extreme, just opening up the other door in life, love it or hate it. I dont have a concept of Anarchy, just as I dont have a concept of true freedom. I pay ****ing taxes every month because some white trash americans wont get off their lazy ass and get a ****ing job. Thats freedom? It costs an awful lot to live here if Im free. If it were freedom, I would have a choice about paying taxes because its MY right to choose NOT to help those who refuse to help themselves.

    [/b]

    Thats where I can not argue with you because you have no idea what anarchy is about. Anarchy to you is what you hear on TV and what books portray of it. Savage men running around killing and taking eachother's wives and money.....sure that could happen, but it could happen now if people wanted it to. Why wouldnt bodybuilding exist? Do you think you would be standing around with a gun guarding your house 24-7? Nope. Theres a big difference between chaos and anarchy.

    [/b]

    wtf? How out of context is this? With anarchy, all the bathrooms wont disappear. Inovation wont subside. Anarchy is a form of government where there is no government. Thats anarchy, what people choose to do with no laws is up to them, those actions arent anarchy. (On a side note: Im from WV brother, Ive **** in a few outhouses)
    [/b]
    Its not out of context at all; its just that you can't grasp it... do you know HOW MUCH **** low-income workers wade through? the custodians that clean ****? the people that run sewage systems? you think they'll give a ****? hell no; they'd rather steal stuff; its hella easier...

    people AREN'T going to ban together and pay people to clean **** up; like the waste we have; not just fecal matter but food too... in a place where there are no laws there is lawlessness and people aren't gonna give a damn about basic functions like TV or keeping the internet up and running?




    Wait......how do you have a concept of anarchy and I dont? How come you can predict the future with anarchy and I cant? If you instill anarchy in a certain area, people would only be foolish to form a government and granted you would have people trying to do that. But Im sure it wouldnt last long when some others realized what restrictions governments place on your life. [/B]
    I'm not predicting a future of anarchy; it'll never happen... humanity as a whole will die if it happens. YOU might be able to survive by yourself with the food you get (gonna hunt some rabbits? what happens when they are killed off because no one gives a ****? you gonna be a farmer too? i hear veggies have LOTS of good old fashiones protein bet you'll definitely stay the size you are now )

    You're not grasping the TOTALNESS of it man... you just want a society without any laws and **** don't work like that... laws are created to protect people; and yes there is some **** out there that shouldn't be a law and **** out there that is just plain wrong... but there's a lot of other things out there thats right...
    like speed limits; 95% of the people on the road can't drive for ****... and everyone thinks they are a great driver and they aren't... there are few that know the limits of their vehicle...
    you think everyone would drive on the right side of the road over here?

    think of the little **** AND the big **** to go along with the idea of no laws... what does NO LAWS really mean? what comes along with it?

    You can't have your cake and eat it too... the world doesn't work that way; and i hope you one day realize this.
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    Well, nothing new to report that I know of regarding the PH bill. Hopefully it will die in committee and never even have the chance to be voted on. Doubt we'll be that lucky, though.

    Back to anarchism for a minute. Laws are enough to oftentimes prevent crimes from happening. The fear of retribution often lead people away from committing a crime.

    Take, for example, a kid in a store. Under a government that provides some sort of order, he thinks about stealing something, but does not, for fear of being caught and punished by authorities.

    Under anarchism, there is no authority, law, or government to fear, so he steals from the store, and gets away with it.

    Now, say you're walking down the street with your girlfriend, in an anarchist society, and you pass by a man. The man really likes the way your girl looks, and decides that he wants her for himself. So, he kills you, and takes your girl against her will. After all, no police to stop him, and you certainly can't do anything, since he just killed you.

    Now, your friends and relatives are extremely hurt and pissed off. They want justice. But how do they get it? They don't know who killed you and took your girl, nor can they find him, because there is no government office to investigate the crime. And say somehow, some way, they THINK they found the one responsible for it, how do they know, beyond a reasonable doubt? There are no investigators, and no courts, to collect and present evidence, respectively. They could end up killing an innocent man in revenge.

    Or worse, someone could kill you, and everyone else that gives a **** about you. Then what? There is no law enforcement, and no courts, so they would not be punished. And there's no reason to think that anyone else would give a **** and seek revenge, because they did not know you and your existance did not matter to them. Besides, they're too concerned about the same thing happening to them to even bother with trying to find out who killed you.

    Without laws and retribution looming, the irrational will destroy a society.
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    Originally posted by Bean


    Its not out of context at all; its just that you can't grasp it... do you know HOW MUCH **** low-income workers wade through? the custodians that clean ****? the people that run sewage systems? you think they'll give a ****? hell no; they'd rather steal stuff; its hella easier...


    Yes, like I said before, until you've visited rural West Virginia, the place where I live, I dont think YOU can talk about people being oppressed and having to do bull**** work just to feed themselves. Rather steal? What country do you live in? Where I'm from, thats illegal. I know some pretty poor people, I know many more "less fortunate people", just because these people do not have a lot of money doesnt mean they give up and start stealing. Its called self respect my friend, a lot more people have it than you give credit for.

    people AREN'T going to ban together and pay people to clean **** up; like the waste we have; not just fecal matter but food too... in a place where there are no laws there is lawlessness and people aren't gonna give a damn about basic functions like TV or keeping the internet up and running?


    How do you know? This is mere speculation. You will still have to earn a living in an anarchist world. Money will still exist. You're not even close to being on track man. Anarchy isnt chaos like you think it is. You're way off.



    I'm not predicting a future of anarchy; it'll never happen... humanity as a whole will die if it happens. YOU might be able to survive by yourself with the food you get (gonna hunt some rabbits? what happens when they are killed off because no one gives a ****? you gonna be a farmer too? i hear veggies have LOTS of good old fashiones protein bet you'll definitely stay the size you are now )


    Why will they die? Do you justify anything or do you just assume? Do you think stores are going to close? Do you think crops are going to die? Do you think foreign trade will halt? Wha tare you even talking about, do you know? Animals will quit breeding in an anarchist nation? Once again, You're way off.

    You're not grasping the TOTALNESS of it man... you just want a society without any laws and **** don't work like that... laws are created to protect people; and yes there is some **** out there that shouldn't be a law and **** out there that is just plain wrong... but there's a lot of other things out there thats right...


    You're not grasping anything. I dont deal with close minded people. People who refuse to see things from a different perspective. I like how you tell me what I want, thats cute. Laws and regualtions arent my primary dispute to start with. If you would have been paying attention, you would know this. Of course I dont like having people tell me what to do, people I dont know, people who could give a **** about me, people's who's salary I PAY by busting my ass in a 55 hour a week job. Thats bull**** and nothing is being done about it.


    like speed limits; 95% of the people on the road can't drive for ****... and everyone thinks they are a great driver and they aren't... there are few that know the limits of their vehicle...
    you think everyone would drive on the right side of the road over here?


    Im not touching this one. This is by far the most ignorant comment of the night. Do you think people lose formal education and common knowledge in an anarchist society? "**** it, theres no formal government, lets drive on the left side of the road!!" wtf? that make sense to you? Not me.

    think of the little **** AND the big **** to go along with the idea of no laws... what does NO LAWS really mean? what comes along with it?


    Ive thought about it, I dont have all the answers, but not much could be worse than the communist government we have now huh?

    You can't have your cake and eat it to... the world doesn't work that way; and i hope you one day realize this.
    Cant have my cake and eat it too? Why not? Why are these politicians and goverment officials better and deserve a better life than me? I work harder than every single one of them. I hope someday you realize how blind you are and how hard Uncle Sam and the government are gang banging your ass....
  

  
 

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