Natural sizes versus roided sizes Question

[soseg]

Ok so I just watched 'Bigger Faster Strong' on youtube, some guy uploaded it in 11 parts, however only 10 are available so I missed the last possible 10mins

anyway im sure you guys have discussed the film in these forums before (cbf searching atm) but my curiousity has left me with this question...

What size in terms of bodybuilding / power lifting is achievable without the use of roids?

It may seem like a simple / stupid question, but basically if people have any photos of bodybuilders for example who can be certain they are not on roids... could you please show me? (a lot of the natural pics i see of bb posing the guys seem kinda small - ie once theyre on stage all oiled up, id rather like shots of guys in their garage/beach etc so I can see what they look like everyday at a respectable body fat)

I ask this because... 1. the movie makes you question how many people use roids. I always had this mindset that only mega reidiculously huge guys would be on them, but as it turns out, a lot more people than you think could be using them. You dont have to be massive to be on roids.

2. the beach scene in the film of the guy having his photo taken for a fitness mag promotion... awesome build/size/physique... to me that looks pretty achievable with a lot of hard work and time... (if anyone who has seen the film recently if you remember what im talking about?)... the guys size was good, he was big, but not mr olympia big... your typical model for a fitness mag that would see chicks would cream over, yet the guy admits he uses roids to get his look... now im wondering... would his size at that rough body fat % be impossible or would people like him use it to just get the results easier?

I'm not in any way considering using it I'm just curious, I'm all for natural but who knows where my mindset will be in 5 years or 10 years when I'm more educated on this topic and more experienced.

So if anybody can answer these questions for me, preferably with photos of decent looking blokes who have not used steroids so i can have a better image in my head of whats achievable naturally it would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Rugger]

Stan McQuay is 'natural'

 

[EasyEJL]

this dude is probably one of your better examples. Other than people with a natural myostatin deficiency, i doubt naturally much bigger than this is all that likely

http://www.eugensandow.com/story1.html

there is where some amount of genetics comes into play, some people are naturally bigger. Steve Reeves http://www.ifbbpro.com/hall-of-fame-welcome-message/steve-reeves/ is an iffy one, its possible he juiced, possible he was natural with superb genetics

 

[machinehead]

Even with so-so genetics you should be able to get up to 3.5lb per inch at less than 16% bodyfat. But it may take so much time and effort that you quit much earlier or seek "help".

 

[holyintellect]

There are many variables to this, and individual genetics is going to be the biggest factor....I have worked with guys with crappy physiques who took grams a week, and I've worked with guys who were natural who could have won smaller regional shows....


holy

 

[Hank Vangut]

scott adam's keep an interesting blog. i think this sums it up....

Steroid Commercial

I just heard that sprinter Justin Gatlin, the world record holder for 100 meters, tested positive for testosterone and steroids. I was shocked!
My first thought went to the second-fastest man in the world. I have this image of him being so happy when he heard the news that he leaped for joy with his mighty legs, penetrated the ceiling, continued on through the attic and roof, and landed in an nearby pond, where he downed...
How happy are the guys who sell illegal steroids? You can't buy that kind of advertisement. And it sure makes it harder for the just-say-no people. "Kids, don't do steroids. If you do, you might become the fastest man in the world and have so much poontang and money that... I forgot my point."
Just once maybe there should be a story about an athlete who did steroids and didn't set a world record, and didn't hump his way through the entire Victoria Secrets model list. Otherwise you have what I call a mixed message.
Have you ever seen one of the bodybuilding competitions where all the contestants are "natural", meaning they tested negative for drugs? The winner still looks like he could lift a car, and that's impressive. But the winner of the nonnatural competition looks like he could crush the car into a small ball, eat it, and poop it five miles into the center of a mountain. There's a difference.
As I understand it, the side effects of steroids include pimples, shrunken nuggets, and the occasional rage. Are you telling me that science can't fix those things? Just give me some Retin-A, nutsack implants, and Prozac and I'm good to go. I think it would be worth it if I could pull a grown tree out of the ground with my bare hands. Then, at holiday gatherings, when the life-of-the-party guy starts playing the piano. I could upstage him by lifting the house off its foundation and shaking all the furniture to one side until his stupid piano falls out a side door and into the pool.

- Scott Adams (Stick To Drawing Comics, Monkey Brain!)

 

[jminis]

really depends on the individuals genetics.

 

[Dadof2]

As another poster said, muscular development is all about the individual's genetics.

That being said, the vast majority of roid users get on juice well before they reach their genetic limitations. Hell, many roid users don't even learn how to train and eat properly before they start using the juice (not casting stones, been guilty of this myself).

My advice to you is this:

Dont worry about this.

Strive to be as good as you possibly can be before you worry about how big you are able to get. That is like "Joe the Plumber" worrying about all the taxes he is going to pay on the business that he doesn't own yet.

Train your ass off, eat right, and then see how your body looks. Life experience has taught me that when you are in good shape you are not only bigger and stronger, but you exude more confidence. People, women especially, pick up on this and act accordingly (cream as you put it? :wink1: ).

For right now make your worries along the line of "am I training hard enough, could I have got another rep?" not " I wonder how big I might be one day if I decide not to do roids."

Finally if you are still this concerned about your appearance just get some implants, thats what the chicks do :boobies:

 

[dg806]

If you want to look anywhere close to the bb's of today, it ain't happening naturally.
I think EJL summed it up good. \
And IMO, Reeves did juice some.

 

[soseg]

nah the look I'd love is Hank Vangut's avatar!!!

 

[soseg]

Stan McQuay is 'natural'

yeah thats an awesome look
if thats not achievable for me naturally then by golly... i'm young and dumb now, but that means I have plenty of years to build myself up naturally and to do lots of reading and thinking before I even consider taking roids! haha

 

[B5150]

Even with so-so genetics you should be able to get up to 3.5lb per inch at less than 16% bodyfat.

Seriously?

Doubtful. Where are you getting your presumption.

5'9" or 69" x 3.5lb = 241.5lbs. I could not achieve that naturally (nor would I want to).

 

[SilentBob187]

nah the look I'd love is Hank Vangut's avatar!!!

Two words, wii fit. :dance:

 

[EasyEJL]

nah the look I'd love is Hank Vangut's avatar!!!

i hear the guy in that pic is a furrophile

 

[SilentBob187]

i hear the guy in that pic is a furrophile

Yeah, the guy in that pic has to remain at least 100 yards away from any barn yard animals.

 

[pmiller383]

Seriously?

Doubtful. Where are you getting your presumption.

5'9" or 69" x 3.5lb = 241.5lbs. I could not achieve that naturally (nor would I want to).

This is probably the first time I am going to disagree with you, but that is definitely an obtainable weight for that height naturally at a BF% of 15 or below. It all depends on genetics, but many people could build respectable bodies if they could dedicate themselves completely to bodybuilding. I am sure most of us have know a couple kids in highschool that were built like that without really ever lifting and I am sure we all know the guy who is 170 lbs at 6ft even though he has taken everything under the sun. Now that guy from the MD add in BFS definitely has an obtainable body, but to be lean like that year round would be pretty hard without some kind of help. Most Pro's of bodybuilding and powerlifting could have had remarkable bodies without juicing, but maintaining them is a whole different story. IMO genetics still has a higher influence on how you can build yourself then steroids do. Maybe I am just naive or optimistic but I think a lot of guys get on juice way to young and never experience their actual potential.

 

[B5150]

This is probably the first time I am going to disagree with you, but that is definitely an obtainable weight for that height naturally at a BF% of 15 or below. It all depends on genetics, but many people could build respectable bodies if they could dedicate themselves completely to bodybuilding. I am sure most of us have know a couple kids in highschool that were built like that without really ever lifting and I am sure we all know the guy who is 170 lbs at 6ft even though he has taken everything under the sun. Now that guy from the MD add in BFS definitely has an obtainable body, but to be lean like that year round would be pretty hard without some kind of help. Most Pro's of bodybuilding and powerlifting could have had remarkable bodies without juicing, but maintaining them is a whole different story. IMO genetics still has a higher influence on how you can build yourself then steroids do. Maybe I am just naive or optimistic but I think a lot of guys get on juice way to young and never experience their actual potential.

It may very well be. I am not disagree with the OP or you. I just can't see me possessing either the genetics or discipline to accrue 40lbs of LBM with or without gear. We'll maybe with gear

 

[machinehead]

It may very well be. I am not disagree with the OP or you. I just can't see me possessing either the genetics or discipline to accrue 40lbs of LBM with or without gear. We'll maybe with gear

I thought the same about not everyone possessing the genetics too. But then I saw what kind of gains Doggcrapp put on people, many of whom in their "before" looked like they could never carry so much weight. But they did, and that totally turned my outlook around. Of course not all were naturals, and that brings my second point:

I'm not looking for agreement or disagreement, but whatever gains you get with gear and keep after discontinuing gear, you should be able to get naturally. As you said, that would be a matter of discipline and lot of patience because that would take a few more years of hard work which may or may not be worth it given that there is a shortcut and the keepability is a function of diet and time and endocrine status to a lesser extent.

I have a couple more comments but I'd rather go to bed now.

 

[Hank Vangut]

Two words, wii fit. :dance:

Yeah, the guy in that pic has to remain at least 100 yards away from any barn yard animals.

that why i play the barnyard animals wii fit game.

 

[Hank Vangut]

nah the look I'd love is Hank Vangut's avatar!!!

you don't need any drugs to look like me. i'm sorta puny at only 175lbs, but i stay fairly lean yr around so i appear bigger than i am.
i'd say my genetics are average, but my motivation is way above average.
i've only run a couple mild 4 wk cycles over a 6yr period and after pct i feel that they almost set me back more than they advanced my progress.
i haven't run anything other than natural test boosters in the past yr and look and feel better than ever.

 

[bkoguy07]

My dad is 6'5" at 270... so 3.5 works fine (coming in at 3.5*77 inches=269...) anyways, he is prol around 20% body fat but im not sure about his body fat but he's definately not fat... (hasn't worked out in years just ran for military he's 50 now...lol)

 

[dg806]

It may very well be. I am not disagree with the OP or you. I just can't see me possessing either the genetics or discipline to accrue 40lbs of LBM with or without gear. We'll maybe with gear

Me either. I'm 5'9" at 200. No way I could gain 40 without being fat. My body just won't handle it. But I'm 45 too. 25??? Don't know....
With drugs......very possible if diet was right.

 

[Aggravated]

I don't know if I could say Stan is natty. On another note, most of your natural ability is based off of your frame/genetics. Every now and then you get that natural beast kind of a guy, but then a lot of that could be an illusion.

Lots of different factors here.

 

[soseg]

I think I've got a good frame, but with the genetics I'd say average (time will tell I havent had enough time to see big enough results yet)

but yea...

 

[B5150]

Me either. I'm 5'9" at 200. No way I could gain 40 without being fat. My body just won't handle it. But I'm 45 too. 25??? Don't know....
With drugs......very possible if diet was right.

43 here. I do believe that if it were ever to be a possibility I would have had to been serious in my early twenties rather than mid thirties.

 

[stevefdl]

I put together some projections based on 300 naturals champions over the last several decades.

If you are at 6% bodyfat (more or less a competition weight)...you can expect...

The reduced formula with wrist and ankle circumferences and a 6% bodyfat percentage is…

H^1.5 (0.31037632)

Height, 66 inches = 166.4 lean body mass potential. Competition weight = 177.0 pounds

Height, 67 inches = 170.2 lean body mass potential. Competition weight = 181.1 pounds

Height, 68 inches = 174.0 lean body mass potential. Competition weight = 185.1 pounds

Height, 69 inches = 177.9 lean body mass potential. Competition weight = 189.3 pounds

Height, 70 inches = 181.8 lean body mass potential. Competition weight = 193.4 pounds

Height, 71 inches = 185.7 lean body mass potential. Competition weight = 197.6 pounds

Height, 72 inches = 189.6 lean body mass potential. Competition weight = 201.7 pounds

Height, 73 inches = 193.6 lean body mass potential. Competition weight = 206.0 pounds

Height, 74 inches = 197.6 lean body mass potential. Competition weight = 210.2 pounds

Height, 75 inches = 201.6 lean body mass potential. Competition weight = 214.5 pounds

Height, 76 inches = 205.6 lean body mass potential. Competition weight = 218.7 pounds

I'd post the link to the full article, but I don't know the link rules here at AM.

 

[Inarius]

Looks like Ive got 20 lean lbs to go.

 

[stevefdl]

Looks like Ive got 20 lean lbs to go.

That's good news. I'm at 178 lean mass @ 5'10...been training for 26 years...I'm about maxxed.

 

[jarhead]

I think genetics plays a big part but i also do think diet and training consistency are important. I was 5'7" 190lbs at 9% bodyfat in the Marine Corps. 100% natural. I used to be firmly against aas. I remember the numbers so well because I had to get a weight waiver because my max weight was 175lbs. Every quarter I had to get bodyfat tested and pictures taken and submit the package for approval which was a huge pain. Bodyfat was tested using calipers and/or one of those electric things at the wellness center where I was stationed. They allowed that over the stupid tape measure scale thankfully. Anyway, most of my family is stocky but I would hardly say I have the best genetics. My arms during this time were 17.5" which for my frame I felt were pretty decent. I was extremely consistent with diet and training during this period,never missing a meal or workout, but more important in my opinion I didn't BELIEVE that I needed aas to get big because frankly i didn't really know alot about them. As far as how I trained ,I was a huge yates fan and patterned my training after him. After I got out with no weight waiver to worry about I ate everything in site and trained more infrequently. I got up to over 240lbs still natural, but kinda pudgy. I didn't touch aas until around 26 or 27. Anyway today, not natural, I weighed 243 and my arms are slightly under 20" cold but it's a much different(in a better way) 240 lbs. I guess my point is that while aas definitely makes a difference, I think that a person can build a lot of size naturally and i think that consistency and just actually believing you can is a huge part of it. The whole idea of considering how big a role aas plays is a limiting factor in itself.

 

[stevefdl]

Speaking as a natural (currently), I have been training on and off for 26 years. There is a point - a wall - that you hit; a genetic limit. I have been at that wall for 10 years.

In fact, as an easygainer, I decided to find out if other naturals hit a wall...and found they do.

 

[jarhead]

Speaking as a natural (currently), I have been training on and off for 26 years. There is a point - a wall - that you hit; a genetic limit. I have been at that wall for 10 years.

In fact, as an easygainer, I decided to find out if other naturals hit a wall...and found they do.

What if you had trained consistently instead of on and off?

 

[EasyEJL]

not able to say this from personal experience (from having talked to lots of people), but even training consistently for years there is diminishing returns where staying at the same bodyfat you get down to where a gain of 2lbs in a year is big gains. And even worse, as you get older and gh + testosterone levels go down it can get to where its hard to just keep what you have already and not injure yourself

 

[machinehead]

not able to say this from personal experience (from having talked to lots of people), but even training consistently for years there is diminishing returns where staying at the same bodyfat you get down to where a gain of 2lbs in a year is big gains. And even worse, as you get older and gh + testosterone levels go down it can get to where its hard to just keep what you have already and not injure yourself

I think the people you speak of believe that they hit their limit and voila, they stopped growing. You can put them on TRT and HGH and they will not make progress either. Training hard and not skipping meals for years isn't for everyone and those who don't see fast enough progress discourage themselves from continuing. Most will stop well short of their limit.

 

[EasyEJL]

I'm talking about IFBB pros

 

[machinehead]

Oh, I thought they were WNBF pros. Nevermind then

 

[badfish51581]

I thought the same about not everyone possessing the genetics too. But then I saw what kind of gains Doggcrapp put on people, many of whom in their "before" looked like they could never carry so much weight.

:goodpost:

i was skeptical until I saw people make transformations on Doggcrapp as well.

 

[B5150]

I have recently employed the DC training method. It does work well.

Train hard - rest well - grow.

 

[machinehead]

I have recently employed the DC training method. It does work well.

Train hard - rest well - grow.

You forgot the diet part

 

[B5150]

I don't need no stinkin' food

 

[stevefdl]

What if you had trained consistently instead of on and off?

Wouldn't matter much. I might be 3-4 pounds heavier. My lean mass is 178 pounds, and hasn't moved in two years of hard training. My numbers are real close to the estimated natural genetic limits.

Genetic limits are extablished for Naturals. Check out the weights of those in natty competitions...they are almost exactly at the numbers I provided. Evengenetic freaks cannot exceed those numbers by more then a handful of pounds.

Here are some videos of my physique to show you where I'm at...

Youtube = SetnnxbmiWI

Youtube = tF4znK6pGmI

 

[dpfisher]

Wouldn't matter much. I might be 3-4 pounds heavier.

Genetic limits are extablished for Naturals. Check out the weights of those in natty competitions...they are almost exactly at the numbers I provided. Evengenetic freaks cannot exceed those numbers by more then a handful of pounds.

In your opinion could someone who unnaturally pushed to or beyond those limits maintain it naturally?

 

[machinehead]

Genetic limits are extablished for Naturals. Check out the weights of those in natty competitions...they are almost exactly at the numbers I provided. Evengenetic freaks cannot exceed those numbers by more then a handful of pounds.

Don't take this personally but you believe so because that's convenient to you. There are naturals that have gone far above simply because they didn't know they weren't "supposed to."

 

[stevefdl]

In your opinion could someone who unnaturally pushed to or beyond those limits maintain it naturally?

Sure, with proper PCT. But I don't know longterm. Most hardcore PH users do 3+ cycles a year...so don't know longterm if they would start to shrink down...

 

[stevefdl]

Don't take this personally but you believe so because that's convenient to you. There are naturals that have gone far above simply because they didn't know they weren't "supposed to."

It's not covenient...it's based on the top lean mass of over 300 natural CHAMPIONS from the last 40 years...show me one natural who is more then 10 pounds over these numbers in lean mass, and I will give you my wife, house and car.

They don't exist. This is based on science, not magic.

The reduced formula with wrist and ankle circumferences and a 6% bodyfat percentage is…

H^1.5 (0.31037632)

Height, 66 inches = 166.4 lean body mass potential. Competition weight = 177.0 pounds

Height, 67 inches = 170.2 lean body mass potential. Competition weight = 181.1 pounds

Height, 68 inches = 174.0 lean body mass potential. Competition weight = 185.1 pounds

Height, 69 inches = 177.9 lean body mass potential. Competition weight = 189.3 pounds

Height, 70 inches = 181.8 lean body mass potential. Competition weight = 193.4 pounds

Height, 71 inches = 185.7 lean body mass potential. Competition weight = 197.6 pounds

Height, 72 inches = 189.6 lean body mass potential. Competition weight = 201.7 pounds

Height, 73 inches = 193.6 lean body mass potential. Competition weight = 206.0 pounds

Height, 74 inches = 197.6 lean body mass potential. Competition weight = 210.2 pounds

Height, 75 inches = 201.6 lean body mass potential. Competition weight = 214.5 pounds

Height, 76 inches = 205.6 lean body mass potential. Competition weight = 218.7 pounds

 

[stevefdl]

Using the above formula, and the lifter's height, bodyfat, and ankle and wrist circumference, the following weights were predicted using the formula...

Bodybuilder Actual Weight Predicted Weight
Clarence Ross 198 198.1
John Farbotnik 195 195.4
George Eiferman 195 194.0
Reg Park 214 214.3
John Grimek 203 203.8
Jack Delinger 195 194.9
Steve Reeves 214 214.0
Current World Champ. "A" 170 170.0
Current World Champ. "B" 168 167.5
Current Nat. 1st Place "A" 190 190.4
Current Nat. 1st Place "B" 185 185.3

 

[EasyEJL]

Don't take this personally but you believe so because that's convenient to you. There are naturals that have gone far above simply because they didn't know they weren't "supposed to."

truthfully i tend to go back to eugene sandow when people say things like that. He was before juice was available, so he was natural. Otherwise, its so hard to really believe and be sure who after the 1940s-50s was really natural anymore

 

[machinehead]

Let's bring Chuck Diesel in here. He is about 240 at 5'8" lean, all natural. That's a lot more than the predicted 174 lbs of LBM, don't you think?

What you posted is not science. There are people who never lifted weights and carry more muscle than that.

 

[EasyEJL]

Chuck may be all natural NOW, but i would not believe that all of his gains were natural

 

[jarhead]

I honestly just disagree that there is a predetermined limit or formula that can predict it. As I said I was lean completely natural at 5'7" 190. I bulked up to 240 natural, granted with higher bodyfat but in good enough shape to play football and plenty of lean mass. I graduated at 165lbs in 1992. I left the Marine Corps in 1998 at a lean still natural 190. I am nowhere near a genetic freak. What I did have is no missed workouts, food every 2-3 hours, logbooks with every single rep and weight I used during those years to make sure that I was improving in some area every workout, but most importantly I had the belief that I COULD get as big as I wanted. Alot of guys SAY they've maxed out or hit walls or whatever but how many of them actually and truthfully train and eat that way year in and year out? It takes time and patience but I really think people are selling themselves short by deciding that they can only go to a certain point or that there is a preset limit. If you believe that, why do it at all? I've trained with plenty of guys that don't fit the examples given in this thread and they were natural. They didn't give a **** about drugs, or some formula- they were going to get big and strong or they were going to die under the bar-that is the attitude they trained with.

 

[machinehead]

I honestly just disagree that there is a predetermined limit or formula that can predict it. As I said I was lean completely natural at 5'7" 190. I bulked up to 240 natural, granted with higher bodyfat but in good enough shape to play football and plenty of lean mass. I graduated at 165lbs in 1992. I left the Marine Corps in 1998 at a lean still natural 190. I am nowhere near a genetic freak. What I did have is no missed workouts, food every 2-3 hours, logbooks with every single rep and weight I used during those years to make sure that I was improving in some area every workout, but most importantly I had the belief that I COULD get as big as I wanted. Alot of guys SAY they've maxed out or hit walls or whatever but how many of them actually and truthfully train and eat that way year in and year out? It takes time and patience but I really think people are selling themselves short by deciding that they can only go to a certain point or that there is a preset limit. If you believe that, why do it at all? I've trained with plenty of guys that don't fit the examples given in this thread and they were natural. They didn't give a **** about drugs, or some formula- they were going to get big and strong or they were going to die under the bar-that is the attitude they trained with.

We should close that thread now. The take-away message is in that post. Arguing does not change the nature of things, it only brings comfort to those who choose to put limits on themselves.