- 09-27-2003, 11:40 PM
Hey guys, this was dicussed briefly in another thread, but I thought I would start its own. I am reading the Anabolic Diet my Dr. Mauru Pasquale, and it's a very interesting read to say the least. Couple of questions if any of you have used it before though.
1) what did u do about post-workout carbs and such, and what kind of trainig routine/cardio did u do well on the diet
2) What kinda results did u see and would you reccomend the diet as well
Thanks a lot guys, wanna start monday, so info would be greatly appreciated.
- 09-28-2003, 12:40 AM
- 09-28-2003, 12:32 PM
John Benz - That Post-workout thread starts with a shake that has 50g carbs in it... Are you sure it's about the Anabolic Diet - Ketogenic????
09-28-2003, 12:37 PM
It's all about anabolic diets. Has nothing to do with keto, which is good only for cutting, not anabolism.Originally posted by LunaHotel
John Benz - That Post-workout thread starts with a shake that has 50g carbs in it... Are you sure it's about the Anabolic Diet - Ketogenic????
Read the whole thread. I think it gets interesting about page 3.
Last edited by John Benz; 09-28-2003 at 01:03 PM.
09-28-2003, 12:40 PM
jdhz to answer your question, I have done the diet twice, once for 10 months and once for 6 months. My reasons for leaving it behind were of the social kind - guys at work convincing me I *HAD* to go out for a beer with them on thursday night - which led me down the evil path of carb, and god forbid - ALCOHOL consumption. End of diet right there.
Otherwise, I did it like in the book - no postworkout carbs. I mean, how far you gonna go on a 30g per day MAXIMUM budget? Sometimes I would make a whey in cream shake and add approx 5-10 g of fructose when my carb intake was especially low that day. But that's not really postworkout carbs.
My workouts have always been 4-5 times a week - except one period when I went really gung-ho and did 5-6 days a week, TWICE A DAY. No cardio per se, my workouts are always plenty intense.
Being completely natural, I would say I made my biggest gains on this diet. It's hard to say exactly because I never monitored my bf% in very accurate terms besides "my abs are more defined", etc. I would say I gained maybe 12lbs lean body mass in the 10-month period and 8lbs lbm the 6 months, which had 3-4 months of 10 to 12 times a week workouts.
I would compare the results with taking large amounts of GHB - on the order of 10g a day. Remember the lbm gains you make naturally aren't like those you make juicing - Gain 12, lose 6. This is gain 12, lose 0. I highly recommend it.
Anyone else please back me up ;-)
09-28-2003, 01:06 PM
Sorry, I didn't realize a book entitled "Anabolic Diet" would pertain to keto. Keto diets are not really anabolic.
09-28-2003, 01:09 PM
I'm looking at it mostly to cut down bodyfat first, but then build back up with it, here Benz, here's a link to the book.
Its on that page, it's an interesting read.
So Luna, do you think just to follow to book exatcly as it goes, keep my training and cardio the same, and taht would be great ot cut?
09-28-2003, 01:20 PM
09-28-2003, 01:21 PM
John, Insulin is the most anabolic hormone in the body. The way the Anabolic Diet is made, the weekend carb feed generates both a GH and Insulin response. This is one thing that many haven't picked up on, but THAT is very anabolic. Isn't it?
09-28-2003, 01:30 PM
insulin is FAR from th e most anabolic hormone in the body. Anabolism occurs just fine without it it as a matter of fact, as this diet actually proves rather than disproves. The growth that occurs doing a keto diet happens all days, not just during the carb-up, and if you can provide ONE study showing insulin is needed for anabolism to occur.....well lets just say you will be the first, because Animal, myself and others have all made that challenge and so far it has been unanswered. Slin can help, but is far from a potent anabolic agent in the true sense of the word.
09-28-2003, 01:35 PM
09-28-2003, 01:56 PM
Well, good old fashioned plain testosterone sure does rate high. Try building mass without any. Guys without it build muscle like....well like girls do. IGF-1 is pretty damn good also. I wont make any statements that either is the "the most" anabolic. I will adamantly state that slin is NOT it, as anabolism occcurs just fine without it and it is not needed to transport amino-acids to the muscle cells.
09-28-2003, 01:59 PM
Hm... YOUR definition of anabolism isn't the scientific one, then. You're talking about "anabolism for bodybuilders". And try to build muscle without insulin.
Anabolism is defined as, in non-scientific terms, regeneration of tissue. Not muscle tissue, but tissue.
09-28-2003, 02:06 PM
Well OK, you regenerate your "tissue", and I'll regenerate my "muscle tissue", in the end I think I will be happier, because coincidently, I am interested in the muscle tissue, as are most guys here.
09-28-2003, 02:10 PM
You know, one thing about language is that the words are constants. If I use "anabolism" for "immune system regeneration", they are linked but they are not THE SAME. So please don't change the accepted meaning of terms to suit your purposes, and then try to say "I'm right" because you use words otherwise than their scientifically accepted meaning.
I'm not flaming you here, but let's use words the way they are meant to be used and we'll understand each other. Othewise what's the point?
09-28-2003, 02:17 PM
John, that thread on bodybuilding.com is completely hilarious. Those guys confuse "post-workout carbohydrate ingestion" with "Insulin release" and there IS a link between the two, but they are not EQUIVALENT. It's so funny. LMAO :-)
09-28-2003, 02:19 PM
I know many on here are followers of some sort of keto diet, even Bobo. But no keto diet has ever worked well for me. I lose weight on keto, but have trouble gaining any lean mass at all. I made my best LEAN gains on a diet of approx. 400 gms protein, and unlimited gms carbs. The carb sources were limited to raw vegetables and grains, including oatmeal. NO fruit, except an apple or two every 3 days to make sure the liver had enough glycogen. Fats were also limited; mostly omega oils, wheat germ oil and meat fat, no butterfat.
I wasn't aware of post-workout nutrition or 6 meals a day, and pro-hormones weren't on the scene yet. I was using a LOT of dessicated liver and up to 2 dozen whole eggs per day. Strength and mass increased at a rapid rate, and bf dropped as quick. Arms went from 15 1/2" to 17" in less than a year, and that was simultaneous with several percentage points of bf drop. That was doing full-body routines 3 X per week, and following Vince Gironda's routines. Except for squats, which he was not fond of, preferring the half squat. Vince claimed full squats broaden the hips, and most, myself included, scoffed at this notion. Funny, years later I see Jay Cutler and Gunter Schlierkamp have stopped squating and use leg press instead. Their reason. It was making their hips too wide.
09-28-2003, 02:22 PM
Don't take this as a flame either, but I know your not from this country, but over here if you ask 10 bodybuilders what "anabolism" means, you will get a reponse that is something along the lines of adding additional muscle. THAT is what we are here studying, not how to boost our immume systems (although I will be the first to tell you that is important also). Now go back, and read your post, and tell me ANYONE reading it wouldn't be lead to beleive you were talking about adding muscle, not boosting immune response.
09-28-2003, 02:24 PM
And please lets see if DiPasquale will rename the book The "boosting your immune response" diet.
09-28-2003, 02:29 PM
You have a point, iron addict. I also have a point in writing something that is perfectly true and totally understandable, that becomes skewed because we WANT something : muscle gains.
Now, insulin IS the most anabolic hormone in the body. It may or may not be the most muscle-anabolic hormone in the body, and that becomes very debatable between Test, IGF-1 an slin. But you can't get muscle-anabolism or ANY kind of anabolism without insulin, period. You just D-I-E.
Proper insulin stimulation, along with all the rest, is a GREAT bonus for the NATURAL bodybuilder. Also for the juicing people but they can do without it.
Edit : "it" at the end of last sentence being, in true semantically accepted format, "PROPER insulin STIMULATION".
09-28-2003, 02:38 PM
You DON'T need insulin to build muscle. PERIOD. Amino's are trtansported to the cell just fine without it it. If not, during the 5 days you eat no carbs what happens to the protein you eat without carbs (thus without slin)? They make it there just fine. Again, no slin, no problem. Growth occurs just the same. If you think all the protein you eat during the 5 days sits around and waits for the carb up to happen so it can get around to satisfying protein turnover needs at the muscle cell, and at all protein tissue sites you are mistaken.
09-28-2003, 02:45 PM
What does this mean, iron addict? You are equating insulin with muscle growth through a 5-day carb-free period saying that my aminos make it to the cell.
I never said that aminos need insulin to get to the cells.
I never said that carbs need insulin to get to the cells.
I said that ANABOLISM - Tissue regeneration cannot be had without insulin. Now if you have large amounts of insulin on the weekend and VERY SMALL quantities of insulin during the weektime, that is very, very different than having NO insulin. Isn't it?
Can you PROVE that a Type I diabetic who doesn't supplement with insulin can grow muscle? That is the only case of someone having no insulin that I can think of. A 5-day period on the Anabolic Diet taken without the weekends in consideration is taking everything out of context, bro.
09-28-2003, 02:51 PM
So you are stating that daily protein turnover needs at the cellular level for ALL tissues are not meant for 5 days while no carbs are present? Sorry but after about day 2 you would be in for a quick trip to the hospitol.
Please define "tissue regeneration" so I know we are talking about the same damn thing.
09-28-2003, 02:52 PM
No I'm not saying that. Where do you get that stuff? Stop it you're scaring me now.
09-28-2003, 02:59 PM
OK, then what is your definition of "tissue regeneration" and what was your point? Do we need slin to buils muscle or not???
09-28-2003, 03:02 PM
Yes OF COURSE you need insulin to build muscle.
Tissue regeneration should be pretty obvious. Which part isn't? "tissue" or "regeneration"? That is the universal definition of anabolism.
09-28-2003, 03:08 PM
So, again you are saying that the WHOLE 5 days when you have no slin ZERO muscle is built, and by inferrence, protein turnover goes undone?
And as far as "obvious" goes. Nothing is obvious about this discussion as you have already stated YOUR definition of anabolism is immune system function. Just trying to be clear here.
So ZERO muscle is accrued during the 5 no carb/slin days???
09-28-2003, 03:20 PM
Where do I say that my definition of anabolism is immune system regeneration? Please read EVERY word in a sentence, it really helps to get the meaning of what is being said.Originally posted by LunaHotel
If I use "anabolism" for "immune system regeneration", they are linked but they are not THE SAME.
I have NOT said that ZERO muscle is being built in that 5-day period. I cannot legitimately say that, and no one can say the contrary with absolute certainty because you would need a study for that. Until there is a scientific study on this very question we cannot answer it. Personnally, I would say that there is protein anabolism during that period because I am every bit as strong on Saturday mornin as on the previous Monday, even if I train the same bodypart.
Again, we can NOT say that that 5-day period is metabolically the same as having NO INSULIN. Why? Firstly, There WAS insulin in large quantities before. Secondly there still is a very small amount of insulin in the bloodstream, undoubtedly caused by the presence of amino acids.
So you cannot call this 5-day period a NO slin period. It is VERY different than someone who has NO slin. Cannot be compared.
09-28-2003, 03:28 PM
Well you just stated you NEED slin to build muscle. Where is the slin during these 5 days. A fat/protein meal generates about zero slin. Where is the slin coming from? If you "need" it as you just stated, and it's not there, no muscle will be built correct??
09-28-2003, 03:32 PM
Read the previous post. The answer IS there. I'm not replying to you iron addict anymore. I respect you iron addict, but you do not know everything. I don't either. Even John Benz, whom I think is possibly one of the most reasoned, seasoned, and informed bodybuilders in here, will not try to say he knows everything involved in building muscle.
You are undoubtedly a good trainer. I am also a good trainer. But trying to misconstrue my posts to try and make me look bad is not what this forum is about. And eventually it also makes YOU look bad. Goodbye.
Last edited by LunaHotel; 09-29-2003 at 09:37 AM.
09-28-2003, 03:48 PM
I'm not trying to make you look bad. Just trying to get a response to the question of if slin is needed for growth. I have participated, and watched some very intelligent people debate this same subject many times and was only trying to see if you could add something they could not. Your tone has gotten personal, mine has not. If you are not ready to define statements you make, don't state them so strongly.
09-28-2003, 03:48 PM
Well, aside from all this, IA, Luna and Benz, what are your feelings on following the diet for cutting if one can adhere tightly to the diet with no problems.
09-28-2003, 04:39 PM
It works great for bodyfat losses. I think timed carb diets are better. But will never tell you keto diets don't work extremely well. But they are soooo damned hard for most people to do correctly. LOTS of people experience performance losses in the gym when doing them, and for others its not an issue. Regardless keto diets work if you are willing.
09-28-2003, 05:04 PM
What do you mean by a timed carb diet? and do you negate the carb loading weekend?
09-28-2003, 05:12 PM
There are various versions of a timed diet, but for the most part, carbs are only consumed post workout (sometimes pre-workout), and frequently enough to keep performance good. There is no push to get into and stay in ketosis like a keto diet. They work almost as well for fat loss as pure keto, but performance stays good, and there is no need to freak out if some carbs are consumed unlike a keto diet that is blown if enough carbs are taken to bump you out of ketosis.
09-28-2003, 05:43 PM
I read all this and I'm gonna have to go with Luna on this one. IMO, insulin is needed to promote muscle growth. Just because no carbs are taken in doesn't mean that other nutrients can't be used to stimulate an insulin response. Protein can be used AND fat will effect insulin levels and can both be used as energy. How do you think keto diets work? There has to be some sort of energy being consumed in order to live. High fats and proteins are used because they don't effect insulin levels as much as carbs.
Also, your body can still be in ketosis even if you have like 20 or so carbs /day. That small amount doesn't make you "fall out".
Can I back it up? No, but this should be common sense here fellas.
09-28-2003, 06:32 PM
If you want to prove to yourself what a potent anabolic it is, try doing plenty of slin WITHOUT taking ****loads of gear and growth and then report your findings. Been there done that, know lots of people went down the same road. But please try for yourself. It's dirt cheap, and available over the counter in most states. If your definition of anabolic is fat-ass, you may be onto something but most people trying to use slin to promote growth just end up fatter. Yes, it can be helpful under the right circumstances, and works wonders for post workout supercompensation, but it is hardly the "most anabolic" hormone available as previously stated. That is why all these baords have sections dedicated to anabolic steroid use, not insulin use. And yes, I have read the studies stating it is NOT needed for growth, and if I weren't so damn lazy I would look them up. But please feel free to look up the counterdicting studies that show slin is needed.
09-28-2003, 06:42 PM
I wasn't saying to supplement with outside insulin. I'm speaking of a natural BB'er and what he/she needs to build muscle. Testosterone is a different story. Of course you need Test, and it is the most beneficial.
I was saying that because someone doesn't eat carbs, that doesn't mean that he isn't going to get an insulin response-- thats it, no more. Protein and fats WILL increase stimulation and hence their will be insulin provided to help with thrusting protein into your muscles, just not as much as carbs.
Also, supp'ing with insulin wasn't on anybody's agenda, and IMO, I think that is moot in this case. We aren't discussing that, and if you were just giving an example, I think that its different than actual theory of what is being discussed. We are saying that insulin is needed in one form or another to build muscle. I can see why you stand by your reasoning, but try and keep an open mind somewhat.
09-28-2003, 06:55 PM
Also, like Luna said, the only person that doesn't have insulin, is a diabetic. Thisis why when diabetics first notice that they have the disease other than from birth, they start to lose weight rapidly. Just thisspring training camp, a Steeler (I forget his name now) recently became a diabetic andthe first sign was that he lost $hitloads of mass, that was how he was diagnosed.
My friend is insulin dependant, he would lift and if he forgot or was a little late for his shot, he would notice it.
So, IOW if a study is done to show what you have stated, he/she would have to be a diabetic and would not be able to inject slin. He would die.
If someone else were a participant in the study, he/she would have to starve him/herself in order for your reasoning to be sufficient. And even then, insulin activity would still be taking place from other metabolizations occuring within the body. And if that were the case (I'm giving you a WAY HEAD START HERE) no wonder they couldn't build muscle, they weren't eating.
09-29-2003, 12:52 AM
ok, IA and Luna, with a CKD what kind of workout/cardio routine do you think works best with it?
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