Strenght, Speed, Fat.

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  1. Question Strenght, Speed, Fat.


    Alright, in the past 19 months, I've been training for mass hoping to get big enough to play football. I managed to pack 37 lbs of muscle + 8 lbs of fat. Now I have exactly 7 months to pre-camp and 11 months to summer camp. The problems are various :

    Body Fat of 16%
    40 yards dash of 5.1
    Weak@$$ strenght (BP of 245, Squat of 365 and Deadlift of 405lbs at a body weight of 207 )


    Goals :
    Body Fat of 11%
    40 yard dash of 4.7
    Become a lot stronger.

    Options :
    1- Try to lose fat for 14 weeks (December) then work on speed/strenght until the season begins.
    2- Train for speed and strenght while eating very clean to make sure not to put anymore fat.
    3-Train for speed and strenght until May or June and then lose fat before the season begins.
    4-Try to gain strenght and speed while trying to lose fat.

    Analysis :
    1- Sounds good, although I wont be in the best shape (strenght and speed wise) before March pre-camp.
    2- Demands great discipline and more money for food/supplements.
    3- I might lose a good amount of strenght and speed while trying to lose fat.
    4- Is it possible? Gaining strenght while doing cardio and cutting the calories sounds impossible.

    Option 1 sounds better although I'd rather do option 4 if it was possible. That fat is starting to bother me because of my fatty genetics. But everytime I tried to lose fat, I started to catabolyse muscle like crazy which kinda pissed me off.

    Any inputs to get the best of each worlds?

  2. PC1
    PC1's Avatar

    I think it would be helpful to know a little more about you first.....

    1. How old are you?
    2. Current Height/Weight?
    3. What league (or level) do you want to play in?
    4. What position(s) do you play?
    5. Do you know the strength/speed/agility test stats that will be required of you for the position(s) you are going to play?
    6. Is this a natural endeavor, or will you be cycling AS?

    I wish I still had it around but unfortunately I don't...... it was the strength/speed/agility stats the NFL seeks, according to an NFL trainer, and listed by position. I was surprised, for example, on the Bench Press stats. They are more interested in the number of reps guys can do with 225 lbs. (20 minimum, for most positions is my recollection) rather than single rep max.

    If this is similar to your requirement, why not work with 225 lbs on the bench and work on getting your reps up to at least your minimum requirement?

    On the 40 yard dash, I'm sure that continuing your leg routine including squats for reps would help, but in the end, you need to practice running the 40 and get your time down.

    Whatever other agility test you need to complete, you need to practice that as well.

    Personally, I think with all the training and running you'll be doing, and eating a fairly clean diet overall, the fat should melt right off you.


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  3. Originally posted by PC1
    I think it would be helpful to know a little more about you first.....

    1. How old are you?
    2. What league (or level) do you want to play in?
    3. What position(s) do you play?
    4. Do you know the strength/speed/agility test stats that will be required of you for the position(s) you are going to play?

    I wish I still had it around but unfortunately I don't...... it was the strength/speed/agility stats the NFL seeks, according to an NFL trainer, and listed by position. I was surprised, for example, on the Bench Press stats. They are more interested in the number of reps guys can do with 225 lbs. (20 minimum, for most positions is my recollection) rather than single rep max.
    1. 18
    2. Where I live, we call it college football but college here isnt what it is in the states.
    3. I want to play OLB or MLB
    4. I dont know... I think they test the bench press with 225lbs and the Power Clean... not sure about other tests, I havent informed myself yet.
  4. PC1
    PC1's Avatar

    Originally posted by DoctorX2k2


    1. 18
    2. Where I live, we call it college football but college here isnt what it is in the states.
    3. I want to play OLB or MLB
    4. I dont know... I think they test the bench press with 225lbs and the Power Clean... not sure about other tests, I havent informed myself yet.
    I think you should introduce yourself to the coach and training staff if you haven't already, and find out what stats you need to turn in for your position. Gear your training toward the stats, running the sprints, drills, bench press, power cleans, etc.

    I doubt if 2-3% of bodyfat one way or another makes much difference to them. But if your stats don't measure up when your season starts...............

    Good luck.

  5. Yeah but I think holding less fat would allow me to run a bit faster.

  6. Bro I've done those tests. I played Defensive End/Defensive Tackle. They'll want you at 4.6 or 4.5 on the 40. If you can hit 225 between 25-30 times you'll be in turning heads. What separates most people who are big and fast is the cone shuttle. This is where I ****ed up, and I was 5'11'' as well.

  7. Alright. So I really need more speed and strenght... as far as cone shuttle, I have a pretty good footwork.

    Im thinking about doing something like this :

    Monday : ME Squat
    Tuesday : HIIT Cardio in the morning. Agility Drills
    Wednesday : ME Bench
    Thursday : HIIT Cardio in the morning. Speed work in the afternoon.
    Friday : DE Squat
    Saturday : HIIT Cardio in the morning. Speed work in the afternoon.
    Sunday : DE Bench

    HIIT Cardio would make sure to keep gains in mass as lean as possible. I'd eat normally until 6pm when I'd only eat proteins while making sure to be hypercaloric so I can progress.

    Inputs please?

  8. Take one day off per week, man. Otherwise, you might get right into OVERTRAINING and then your strength will not increase well. You could possibly forgo the HIIT of Saturday and train bench - Take sunday off, or forgo friday squats as they require the longest time to recuperate.

    Diet-wise, have you thought about doing a ketogenic? I think that would work extremely well. You'd eat lots, and keep your energy way up for training, and a ketogenic will burn fat off you like magic, effortlessly. Plus, ketogenic diets are perfect for longer-term endeavors such as yours. If I were you, I'd seriously consider doing that. Some people will try to convince you that you absolutely need carbs for strength work but that's BS.

  9. Originally posted by DoctorX2k2
    Yeah but I think holding less fat would allow me to run a bit faster.
    Not necessarily. There may not be a big difference in speed from one 240 pound LB to another as long the BF levels aren't ridiculously high. If you get to around 10% that would be great. I believe Ray Lewis has 7% BF according to ESPN and that's for and ELITE, ALL-PRO linebacker. (arguably the best LB in the NFL)

  10. Originally posted by LunaHotel
    Take one day off per week, man. Otherwise, you might get right into OVERTRAINING and then your strength will not increase well. You could possibly forgo the HIIT of Saturday and train bench - Take sunday off, or forgo friday squats as they require the longest time to recuperate.

    Diet-wise, have you thought about doing a ketogenic? I think that would work extremely well. You'd eat lots, and keep your energy way up for training, and a ketogenic will burn fat off you like magic, effortlessly. Plus, ketogenic diets are perfect for longer-term endeavors such as yours. If I were you, I'd seriously consider doing that. Some people will try to convince you that you absolutely need carbs for strength work but that's BS.
    You're right about Overtraining... I might as well take Saturday off. I dont want to change the days all over cause my schedule doesnt permit it.
    I havent thought about keto but it sounds perfectly suitable in my case. I'll start reading about it... for now, all I know about it is that you increase fats and decrease carbs.
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  11. There is a thread in the "Nutrition" forum called "Step by step ketogenic diet plan" which sums it up pretty well. I just started back on it today.

  12. Ok thanks... I'll ask a few questions there though.

  13. i would pretty much suggest working on stamina/strength for most lifts, because a one rep max doesnt do that much for u in football. its all about having the endurance and stamina to keep going. for example, my current o line coach played for the idaho vandals, and he could do 315 a ridiculous amount of times in college, but other guys could easily beat him as far as a one rep max goes. thats also the reason that the NFL looks at how many times u can do 225, as opposed to a one rep max. anyways, like i was saying, work on getting a lot of endurance in ur bench and squat, then incorporate a couple oly lifts in ur routine for explosiveness and to help with ur CNS. u should also be doing sprints, like 40's and 100's a lot, and work in some plyometrics, foot speed is very important.

  14. Does an increase in flexibility help quickness? There is a thread here somewhere about extreme stretching, but its focus is on increasing size. I also do it to help remain injury free.

  15. Originally posted by wyatt
    Does an increase in flexibility help quickness? There is a thread here somewhere about extreme stretching, but its focus is on increasing size. I also do it to help remain injury free.

    Yes, because flexibility helps getting a bigger range of movement (ROM).

  16. Originally posted by wyatt
    There is a thread here somewhere about extreme stretching
    I believe it's about ballistic stretching or PNF (Propioceptive Neuromuscular Stretching) but I could be wrong.

  17. Here is the thread I was referring too on the extreme stretching. I'm not sure if this is pnf or ballistic or something else. I only know that it can be painful and it works - at least as far as flexibility goes.

    http://www.anabolicminds.com/forum/s...eme+stretching

  18. It sounds to me like your trying to be a football player and a bodybuilder at the same time.

    You gotta pick one, or atleast prioritize one over the other. Can't be juggling them both forever.

  19. Losing bodyfat while increasing strenght is absolutely doable with little effort if you go about it the right way. People that will tell you the best you can hope for is to hold on to what you have, or worse, only lose a little are sadly mis-informed. Keto diets work, but performance usually suffers way too much. What you want is a timed carb diet that allows you to keep glycogen stores up for performance, while restricting carbs most of the time to allow bodyfat losses. I have people with horrible genetics that usually have an extremely difficult time adding strenght even while bulking, gain strenght the WHOLE TIME they diet. Juggling the carb timing and days is all that is needed to provide whatever level of fat loss relative to strenght gains. That said the more aggressive you are with the fat loss, the slower strenght gains will be. But it is easy to hit a good balance point where fat loss is good, and strenght gains are solid.

    Iron Addict

  20. Originally posted by TheTom
    It sounds to me like your trying to be a football player and a bodybuilder at the same time.

    You gotta pick one, or atleast prioritize one over the other. Can't be juggling them both forever.
    Hmmm... I want to be a Lean football player Anyways I still have a plenty of time. Im gonna try keto for 6-8 weeks and then Im going to powerlift with a WestSide Barbell routine until my joints can no longer handle it I'll do everything that is needed to perform.

  21. Originally posted by iron addict
    Losing bodyfat while increasing strenght is absolutely doable with little effort if you go about it the right way. People that will tell you the best you can hope for is to hold on to what you have, or worse, only lose a little are sadly mis-informed. Keto diets work, but performance usually suffers way too much. What you want is a timed carb diet that allows you to keep glycogen stores up for performance, while restricting carbs most of the time to allow bodyfat losses. I have people with horrible genetics that usually have an extremely difficult time adding strenght even while bulking, gain strenght the WHOLE TIME they diet. Juggling the carb timing and days is all that is needed to provide whatever level of fat loss relative to strenght gains. That said the more aggressive you are with the fat loss, the slower strenght gains will be. But it is easy to hit a good balance point where fat loss is good, and strenght gains are solid.

    Iron Addict
    Hmmm people said they could gain strenght every weeks on Keto. Could you elaborate your thoughts a bit more?

  22. DoctorX2k2 yes you can gain a LOT of strength on keto, and lose fat, and INCREASE BODYWEIGHT, which means you gain lean mass.

    Just don't follow the "youneedcarbsalso" bunnies of the pseudoketo semihalfassreligion. Do the ANABOLIC DIET as per Mauro DiPasquale. Go and make absolutely SURE you get LESS than 30g carbs per day TOTAL. That is an absolute MAX on weektime.

    A big mistake a lot of guys do is that they try this diet and after 10 days or so of feeling weak and, REALLY, a little DEPRESSED, and yes this diet does do this to you in the first stage, they leave it be and go for a halfass keto. Well you can still burn fat off these pseudoketo but the beneifts are FAR from as good.

    Of course on weekends you can have all the ice cream and pizza you can keep down. After a good 6 weeks of keeping this diet going, you'll find that your results are better if you go absolutely monster-mad-crazy in terms of food excess on the weekend. Take ALA on monday to get back into ketosis better.

    The mistake a lot of so-called ketodieters make is that they eat too much carbs. This keeps the body in semi-adapted state to fat-burning, and is essentially a half-assed ketogenic. It doesn't feel good.

    YOU DON'T NEED CARBS FOR HIGH INTENSITY WORK. PERIOD.

    BUT you have to give your body the time to FULLY adapt to a "carbless" diet, which means that there are enzymes and feedback loops that must get activated, others collapsed and that takes TIME the first time around. After about 4 weeks if you do this correctly I personnally GUARANTEE that you will feel the highest energy levels you have EVER felt.

    At that time, you can begin the mid-week carb spike, which is to take a mass-gainer drink of about 1000 calories (NOT MUCH MORE!) immediately after your wednesday workout.

  23. Thanks Luna. Although I'd like to see some guidelines to make myself a plan. I read the keto forums on bb.com but it seems that a few people have different views/ways to do it... which confuses me a bit.

    PS : Im a fellow Quebecker

  24. Keto diets absolutely work for fat loss, and I USED to use them LOTS for both myself and people I trained. I have since discontinued their use for 2 main reasons:

    Performance IS an issue for most people. Luna is absolutely correct about the fact that you must allow time for the body to become accustomed to the lack of carbs, and convert over to being primarily a fat burning machine. Nonetheless, MOST people do not experience the level of performance they have when muscle glycogen stores are adequate. And I know this because I have, and had many people try both on a comparative basis, and a timed carb diet provides better performance for the vast majority of people doing them.

    Perhaps the biggest reason to no longer favor them is the simple fact that most people just WILL NOT eat only animal products or the few items that are only protein and fat for every meal, every day, day in and day out until the periodic carb-ups occur. The most perfect diet that is not followed is useless, and most people just wont do a pure keto diet consistently. This may not be a big issue for an individual. But I assure you it is a big issue when you train a lot of people. If I task someone to do something with a huge up front knowledge it probably wont be carried out, I fail both myself and the trainee. And I will not allow that to occur. Timed carb diets work extremely well, they keep thyroid high, performance high, and attitude high.

    There is nothing wrong with a keto diet if you so chose to use one. I just think there is a better way, thatís all. If they work for you count yourself high on the discipline scale, most folks just wont wait 5 days to eat a few carbs.

    Iron Addict

  25. I never really been a carb addict... most the time, my meals consist of proteins and a few carbs from vegetables but I admit I lack of essential fats. Im going to give pure keto a try... anyways I'll only do it for 6-8 weeks so all I have to lose is time (and fat ). Only 8 weeks... I'll have almost 40 other weeks to get my strenght up. I think it's easier to aim one goal at a time than try to do everything at once and screw it all.

  26. I agree with you Iron Addict : most people simply won't follow the guidelines for a 5-day just-about-carb-free diet and that screws it up unless you do a timed carb thingie. For some people it IS hard to eat only beef, veal, pork, cheese, eggs, cream, butter and some chicken. It is kinda weird at first but after a while, you get used to it.

    People are different one place from another, I guess. I got about a dozen people on this diet and the boys (one woman) did great and had no trouble doing it. I did INSIST that eating more than 30g carbs a day simply screws it up. I guess it's also because of our culture here in Quebec, which is very much like that of France : eating farm products is what comes to mind. How many people here just won't do without their eggs-and-bacon breakfast!?! And we have a true cheese culture, too. So that might very well have something to do with it.

    DoctorX2k2 if you're going to do it well for 8 weeks, then you'll probably feel great enough at the end of that, that you'll want to continue.

    The trick is, when your body is so fully tuned to burning fat for fuel that the enzymes and metabolic pathways are able to supply energy for HIGH-INTENSITY work, then two things occur : first, you're going to be losing bodyfat just about no matter what you do. Losing fat isn't something you have to think about on such a diet. It simply happens.

    Secondly, there is no "wall" anymore. The famed wall that you may hit after so much intense work is glycogen depletion. Since you don't rely on carbs for energy and your fat-burning pathways are sufficient, there is NO wall. This is pretty incredible. I have verified this and man, you simply WILL NOT BELIEVE what you are able to do while on this utterly superior diet. So your stamina will be sky-high too.

    Oh, and DoctorX2k2, this is the only diet that will let you make your protein shake with table cream. That gets SO yummy it's worth everything else... ;-)

  27. Yup, it really sucks watching someone spend a couple of days to finally reach ketosis and blow it because the walked by the candy machine at work and pigged out-lol.

    Iron Addict

  28. Are you saying that I shouldnt cycle carbs on the week-ends too?

  29. Huh? Is that question for me, DoctorX2k2?

    No-no. The pure ketogenic-anabolic diet is less than 30g carbs a day every day of the week, and a weekend carb-up. Pizza and ice cream. Of course, if you workout on saturday, then it's usually best to begin carb loading after the saturday workout. It's absolutely OK to carb load for less than 48 hours, as a lot of people have a tendency to overdo it if they begin loading on saturday morning and finish it on sunday at night.

  30. And the less than 30 grams a day Luna is talking about should be spread out. 30 grams at once will blow most people right out of ketosis. Althought with some AlA and a little activity, its not too hard to get back there.

    Iron Addict
  

  
 

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