Is my coaches routine wack?
- 12-18-2007, 09:03 PM
Is my coaches routine wack?
Alright so our football coach has a routine for us to follow every Monday, Wednesday and Friday.
The core lifts on:
Monday - Bench and Box Squat
Wednesday - Powerclean and Deadlift
Friday- Full Squat and "Towel" Bench (90 degrees)
And every week is different for sets and reps
One week is 5 sets of 5 reps
Next week is 3 sets of 3 reps
then 10,8,6,4,2 reps
then 5,4,3,2,1 reps
Then it repeats. Its always those sets and reps for the week. Just every week is one of those 4 setups.
There are also auxillary(sp) lifts.
ie. Monday - Tricep Pull-downs, Neck movements, and push press
Wed - Medial DB Chest Press, Skull Crushers, Military Pres
Fri - Pec-Deck, Lat/Shoulder machine work, DB Rows
We also use the Power-runner machine for speed (which I love)
So given this routine, it would take roughly ~1hr.
Can this routine produce any muscle IF IF IF diet is in check with a surplus of calories?
Im going to be playing football for my first year, so I dont want to argue with the coach about lifting programs becuase wants strength not body-builders
Could this routine also produce strength if one used enough intensity?
I have never seen threads on this so I was hoping someone could shed some light.
- 12-18-2007, 09:40 PM
We did somthing similar to this for football when i was in High School. It gave some decent results to guys but IMO sucks. I was biggest/fastest/strongest when doing my own thing 5-6 days a week.
I think most coaches use this stuff cause it's old school and the fact they have 55+ guys to train in only a few hours and a few days a week.Serious Nutrition Solutions Representative
- 12-18-2007, 11:13 PM
I'm not sure about the 10,8,6,4,2 rep thing, but again it would depend on the 1 or 5RM % that it is based on. Ask your coach what those sets/reps are based on and the recommended progression, spend a day or two and find your 1 & 5RM on those exercises and you can accurately choose the weights for each set for the next 8 weeks, I will assume you should be stepping each set up by 10-15%, but ask anyway.
If that is the workout he is having you do, I suggest you do your homework going into it so you have the numbers in your head (on paper is better) of what you NEED to use for each set, each and every week. Goals are easier to hit when you know what they are. If you walk into the weight room knowing what you are going to squat ahead of time, you can psych yourself up all day into hitting that PR.
Read this so you have an understanding of linear progression:
Bill Starr 5x5 - Madcow Intermediate or Linear Version
Use this spreadsheet to plug in your 5RM #'s as of right now (you can plug in the cleans, military, etc. as the math is still the same):
After week 3-4, you will be setting PR's for strength EVERY single workout.
Muscle size does not necessarily == strength and strength does not necessarily == muscle size.
5x5 is a decent balance of both, 3x3 will make you STRONG.
Use the deload/intensification numbers from this spreadsheet for your 3x3 numbers:
Do them with a 5 second concentric, slight pause and explosive eccentric. You want to develop explosive power.
What position are you going to be playing?
Football is all about a lot of power in the first few feet. Lots of PUSHING. Will this routine make you a 'bodybuilder'? not really, but it will make you strong like a football player. Eat enough and you will get bigger on these exercises, will you get a bicep 'peak'?, probably not, but your quads/hams/tris/chest will be strong enough to drive your opponent back the few feet you need.
Make sure you do your running AFTER your weight training (if possible).“Besides, it is a disgrace to grow old through sheer carelessness before seeing what manner of man you may become by developing your bodily strength and beauty to their highest limit.”
12-19-2007, 09:51 PM
Yea I was thinking the same thing Distilled. Following my current routine with my own lifts, I have been blowing away my competition. and im just so much bigger. honestly.
But I understand what you mean to Xodus.
Im going to HAVE to fill out a book for him. So i will record all my workouts. (he wants us to track our progress which is great)
The 5x5, and 3x3 routines are fine i will do them no problems. and with the 10,8,6,4,2 I will use a version of my routine
10 and 8 will be warmups while 6,4,2 are all HEAVY SETS
the 5,4,3,2,1 will just be a "butt-kicking see what i got", type week.
For the auxillary lifts, I will NOT do 3 sets of 10 reps like he says. I will do 3 sets of 6-8 reps and only roughly 2-3 exercies. or would 10 reps be better?
I will be looking at
-2 core lifts,
-light AB-work 2 days a week,
-2 auxillary lifts.
So how would this work in your opinion?
DURING 5x5 week on Monday
lbs x 5 x 5
same as bench
(1-5 minute "routine")
(Med-ball exerices, crunches) 10-15 minutes
lbs x 6-8 reps x 3 sets
lbs x 6-8 reps x 3 sets
That roughly will come out to a 45 minute workout.
I think this will take a lot out of me and will still give me an efficent workout. What do you think?
I do, however, understand that the constant change in sets / reps may hinder gains.
12-19-2007, 10:04 PM
My favorite quote from the above link:
Don't **** with this. Every bodybuilder seems to have Attention Deficit Disorder and an overwhelming desire to customize everything. The bottom line is that these are all the most effective exercises and just about anything one does will result in less gains. As a rule those people who want to change it don't know enough to make proper alterations - those who do know enough, don't have much to change. The guy who is responsible for this program is of the best on the planet at bulking lifters and making people stronger. It's kind of like Sesame Street's Elmo offering neurosurgery advice at NYU. Anyway, it's absolutely essential not to screw with the squats, they are the foundation of this program. If you want to sub inclines or push presses for military that's okay. Do not sub machines - don't even think about it, hit yourself with a plate if you must. For arms choose a single biceps and triceps exercise and perform them at the end once per week for 3 sets of whatever - your arms will take a beating from all the pulling and pressing anyway. If you want to chin on Wednesday or do a few sets of pulldowns/ups that's fine (avoid the machines if you can use bodyweight). Core work is always fine. Cardio is fine - interval training is the best for this I'll just throw out. If this is just too much mental strain, take solace in the fact that it's just a few weeks, you'll gain a ton of muscle and strength and then you can spend the next 4 weeks adding the minute detail to refine the gained mass (like most care anyway - I have yet to meet a guy on this board who will trade 20lbs of muscle for a bit of added detail somewhere). In a nutshell, put your trust in some of the better coaches on the planet and enjoy the results.
“Besides, it is a disgrace to grow old through sheer carelessness before seeing what manner of man you may become by developing your bodily strength and beauty to their highest limit.”
12-20-2007, 06:51 AM
I never said my coach was great. Our football team is THE SMALLEST and WEAKEST in our div. 4 confrence. Our center weighed roughly 170lbs.
Im not using machines. Only for tricep pull-downs and neck exerices. I dont like machine work.
What I outlined was EXACTLY what he said, just instead of 3 sets of 10, I would do 3 sets of 6
12-20-2007, 02:51 PM
From a strength & conditioning stand point your workout should consists of 3 meso cycles, a hypertrophy phase, strength phase and power phase. I don't know about this week by week from high to low reps. By the time you've reached your power phase with snatches, hang; power; olympic C&J, and your well into your plyo's, you shouldn't really be seeing any auxillary lifts unless you're in your hypertrophy phase, which would be too soon for power runs and cleans. I might be missing something, but the proper progression from off to on season training cycles seem off.
is this a highschool coach or a college coach? It might have been mentioned but I just missed it.
Your schedule should follow this model to some extent.
Hypertrophy Phase: Primarily Muscle Adaption
Strength Phase: Neural/Muscle Adaption
Power Phase: Primarily explosive neural adaption. increased neuron firing rate, increased motor unit muscle recruitment, increased stretch reflex response. Heavy SAQ's & Plyo's.
Either way, reps for the title of your thread, haha.
NSCA - CSCS
12-20-2007, 03:35 PM
We only do Cleans, Bench, Squat and Deadlift. And we have a push press as an aux. lift. as well as the power runner
We do our plyos 1 1/2 hours AFTER lifting starts. I dont do them though. I cant stay that late.
Can you explain what you mean in the bold print? Do you mean that the routine I outlined should be used for "in" season lifting?
12-20-2007, 04:54 PM
Then you jump into your first off season phase. A hypertrophy phase, which is basically bodybuilding, aux lifts like bi's, tri's, high rep shoulder press, high rep bench press, high rep squats. Basically anything involved in the sequence somewhere in your power lifts. For instance, off the ground clean and jerk requires, quads, hams, glutes, erector spinae, rhomboids, traps, shoulders, forearms, pretty much everything but triceps. In the hypertrophy phase you're training these parts individually to get a muscle growth response. Which is about 65-75% of your 1RM between 8-12 reps.
Strength Phase, you're doing the same exercises, only you bump the intensity up to 85-90%. Rep range of 4-8 reps, and you start to incorporate hang cleans. You're body will still make hypertrophic adaptions and more pronounced neural adaptions then the hypertrophy phase.
Power Phase. Theoretically you're as strong as you're going to be. Mostly 1RM's here. Single rep deads, single rep bench, single C&J, Snatch, to train explosiveness. Side note. A "power" movement requires the involvement of Velocity. The biomechanical equation for Power, is [Power=work/time]. In the world of sports performance, Squats and Deads are weight lifts, not powerlifts (I know they're in power lifting competitions) but as far as the type of adaption these exercises excite, deads and squats are more so auxillary lifts to power movements like C&J and Snatch, as oppose to power movements themselves.
So just before the Season begins, you're in your third meso cycle. You train with power movements. It allows for explosive movements. Power and Strength aren't the same thing. You can be strong as hell, but slow as hell off the ball. If you're powerful, then you can explode off the ball really quickly because your muscles have adapted to explosive, sudden movement via your C&J, Snatch, Plyo's. Adaption to quick, explosive movements are why you perform C&J's and Snatch's. You can move slowly through a Deadlift and get it off the ground eventually, 150% effort, but it doesn't require velocity in the movement to get it up. You cannot slowly snatch a bar over your head. That's why small guys can move a lot of weight in the olympic lifts. They have increased firing rate adaptions and motor unit muscle recruitment, these are neural adaptions and have a lot less to do with muscle size.
Sooooo... right before the season you should be all about C&J, Snatch, Speed & Agility Drills and Plyo's. RIGHT BEFORE THE SEASON, and by right before I mean at least a month.
During the season, "In Season," you're not training to get stronger or faster, you should theoretically be at your pinnacle of your athleticism, strength, power, agility and speed wise, but you do power lifts to maintain what you have and your practices should become VERY sport specific, like no mile runs or anything crazy, lots of short burst runs if anything. Plays don't last beyond 10 seconds normally, probably averages between 5-7 seconds.
The reason I wrote something about the progression being wrong, is your coach has plyo's, power movements and auxillary lifts in the same mix. They don't belong in the same meso cycle, so I thought that was weird, it doesn't follow a progression to have you physically peak right before the start of the season. Your focus as a football player is power movements, explosiveness & speed, not bodybuilding. (another side note: Someone is going to say what about Franco Columbo and Johnnie Jackson, pro bodybuilders who competed in power meets. They primarily competed in deadlifts, not C&J and Snatch, at least not effectively, they're achievements were in the dead, which again, is more of a weight lift then a power lift, anyway).
If you peaked now, you won't hold on to that until the season starts next Fall. That's why the progression is the way it is.
If your coach doesn't understand the logic behind what he's doing and the physical adaption(s) behind his workout routine, it's not going to be very effective, it could be pretty detrimental to you as a player during the season actually. No offense to the coach.
P.S. It's a bit early to be doing Plyo's already, wow.
NSCA - CSCS
12-20-2007, 04:56 PM
I'd focus a little more on plyos, being explosive, and footwork. Many players (teams) don't take this into account at the high school level. Some of the teams could have big guys who just don't play as big on the field. I don't know if it's just your general region where the linemen are smaller but our smallest guy was 215 as right guard.
12-20-2007, 05:12 PM
Well, there are reasons why our football team isnt so great anymore. We got our butt handed to us everytime becuase we are weaker.
I wish I could tell my coach this, but I know he wouldnt listen to me. He wont change his whole routine for a 15-year-old kid playing football for his frist year. He has been doing this 'routine' for years. There has been a few confrences titles and winning seasons too. Odviosuly, size and strength doesnt determine the outcome. but dang, it sure is a big factor.
I wonder what Im gonna do. Fill out his books, and follow the workouts, or have him yell at me for not doing it. Im only gonna do this for about 7 weeks, becuase then baseball starts.
UNLESS! Wow, I just had a light go on in my head. Im gonna talk to the fricken baseball coach. Wow. I will convince him, to make a routine (with some help by me) for baseball players. That way, I will be in shape for baseball with a proper workout plan. Then I will start the football routine in June. (which doesnt bother me). June-Oct. will be what he wants. And if I stay the same size, strength, and weight, I doubt I will play again. I'd rather be a body builder then a football player, but I wanna try out football too.
12-20-2007, 05:14 PM
12-20-2007, 11:33 PM
12-24-2007, 06:17 PM
Im not even sure If I even want to play. I'd rather devolp muscle then overtrain like I did my whole freshmen year. It was such a waste. Plus, I'm much more committed to baseball then football. Im just better at baseball then football (and I have never played, so I wont know what the heck im doing).
If Im going to put hours and hours of hardwork in, I better love what I'm doing.
12-24-2007, 09:29 PM
12-24-2007, 09:50 PM
12-26-2007, 10:03 AM
12-26-2007, 10:59 AM
12-27-2007, 12:09 AM
Excellent point! I think the coordination and balance aspect of true sports training has been overlooked. I've played sports since I was 5 and have probably been to more sports camps than I care to remember...one thing I have seen lacking throughout these camps are the basic fundamentals...
I help 3 or 4 high school kids every summer that wander into my gym looking for a "quick fix". They all have the same issues...after 4 weeks of doing the ladders/box sprints/plyometrics/ and drilling...they are faster and stronger without the use of heavy weights and powerbuilding techniques...
Don't get it twisted though...I recommend anyone serious about sports learn and perfect the basic power movements (clean/jerk/bench/dead/squat)--but improving coordination at that age goes a LONNNNNG way!
More importantly though, learn proper nutrition and training periodization too...without that; it really doesn't matter what your training protocol is...
12-27-2007, 12:19 AM
I had a transfer kid this year who's 6'3'' 270 and could bench 340 at 17 y/o but I had to move him to guard because he would get beat badly by any defensive end with speed. This guy wasn't slow either, just had horrbile footwork and balance when left on an island.
Kids don't know how to use their hands, leverage, angles, and common sense.
01-01-2008, 09:46 AM
Do you guys have any suggestions for baseball players in terms of weight liftiing routines and agility work/plyos?
01-06-2008, 12:11 AM
01-06-2008, 08:29 AM
01-06-2008, 11:51 AM
lifting - strength, i used to go DC when i played then tapered down as the season approached to a 3x/wk full body routine
stretching - very important to maintain flexibility as in any other sport, lack of flexibility will cause injuries
important to take care of your rotators as they are the most important for you as a player, try to avoid all impinging movements
01-06-2008, 12:46 PM
Strength- i do my best to stay in the 4-6 rep range. Lots of compound work. My shoulders are going to have higher reps though to protect my shoulders..but I like the DC method as well
Im gonna do lots of strectching. I can't afford an injury
Thanks for your help.
01-21-2008, 08:49 AM
Well no more of the "all over the place" routine. The coach has made a new one.
Start with 75% of your 1 rep max, do 10 reps, take weight off, IMMEDIATLY do another 10 reps, take more weight do another 10 reps end of sets.
The football players can't get through their 2nd set..
Its pretty bad. They do Upper body Monday and Wednesday, some weird exercises on thursday, then the following week they will do lower body but i dont know if it's only Monday or if they do it on Wednesday as well. The only thing i noticed is that Thursday's will be the same with I guess plyo/core/agility work with weights.
I browsed over the book the guys were handed out and I said f that im sticking to baseball.
Any one thing this might be a good routine? drop sets as the MAIN lifts?
01-21-2008, 09:45 AM
Ive never seen a kid on the football field bench press anyone. IMO, i think it is the most overrated lift for sports. The big ones i think should be concentrated on are...
01-21-2008, 04:39 PM
I think everything looks pretty regular. I mean when I played Football, are coach was great, he is what got me into powerlifting. I think everything in your schedule looks good, but the rep sceme is jacked. But I would just leason to them, doesnt do any good to make bad with the coaches.
01-27-2008, 02:16 PM
01-27-2008, 05:46 PM
01-27-2008, 05:49 PM
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