Red Dog - Polyrhythmic Sleep Log

[Red Dog]

hey guys, Im in the middle of a crazy sleep schedule already so I figured I would give this crazy thing some attention..

Im habitually late to bed and late to rise .. I typically don't go to sleep til around 4am and have to wake up around 10 (but I could easily sleep til 3 or 4 in the afternoon regularly if I could)..

I have 6 finals this week, each on a different day (2 on tuesday) which I have neglected up til this point just because i wait til the last minute to get things done.. My fault, but essentially my sleep schedule is absolutely fvcked at this point..

Additionally, I have some very time consuming house projects that are going to run my life for 1-2 weeks following this week.. Also crapping on my sleeping habits..

In light of said crap, I decided to try a Uberman style sleep schedule for this time frame, unless I ***** out and can't handle it for whatever reason..

This is sleeping ~25 minutes every 4 hours.. I may tweak one of those sleep sessions to include a core sleeping session of 2-3 hours.. I would ultimately be getting between 2.5-5 hours of sleep per day depending on how I feel -- the same amount I would get if my sleep schedule was random and unstructured.. The apparant idea is to continue this long enough to where REM is established shortly after I fall asleep..

So before everyone tells me how stupid this idea is and how bad it is for me and how no tissue can be built etc etc, I want to say that I'm sharing this experience just in case anybody around here is interested in sleep science and the results from such an experiment..

This polyrhythmic sleep cycle has had positive effects on some individuals, and completely wrecked others.. None of whom I read to be actively engaged in weight training or carrying any substantial lean mass at all..

I think it's intriguing to see how such a lifestyle that allows for an additional ~5 hours of time spent awake meshes with the aspects of training..

I'll be eating close to a 40/40/20 and interestingly enough eating 12 small meals everyday -- eat every 2 hours.. I'll be reflecting on possible changes in my weight, bf, energy levels, endurance, strength, awareness, and whatever else I notice..

If nothing else, this will shed a little light on the importance of adequate sleep.. or maybe some other notable effects will occur.. Just putting this experience out here in case any one here finds it interesting or wants to see the effects this kind of behavior has on an active male..

 

[Bull Mkt]

I'd be interested to see how this works out for you...in all honesty though, regardless of how you break things up, it doesn't seem like you're getting enough sleep as a whole. Also, it's my understanding that people hit their REM late in their sleep cycles so I don't know if you these short little naps would do any good in achieving the much needed "deep sleep." I know that for me, I achieve REM within the last 2 hours of my 8 hour sleep cycle. So if I get less than 6 hours of sleep, I'm ****ed...seriously, I feel like crap the rest of the day...and let's just say that people do not enjoy working for me on those days...LOL!!!

 

[Red Dog]

haha I feel ya buddy.. and I agree with you in all reality it probably isn't anywhere near enough sleep.. which is exactly why I'm altering my schedule to include a 3 hour nap at some point if I get hit with some sleeps..

The idea I guess it get your brain accustomed to immediately going into REM sleep.. It's claimed that the average time one spends in REM is about 2 hours at the end of the sleep cycle just like you mentioned bull, and this process yeilds 30 min every ~4 hours so like.. 3 hours of REM sleep a day.. haha some shotty reasoning I know -- I have no idea what the processes are its just what Ive researched at the lib! :hammer:

I mean, I don't have a laboratory and brainscanners to see I accomplish that but most people attribute vivid dreams to REM -- I full blown dream every time my head hits the pillow haha a weak indicator I know, but I'm aware that my health could take a hit from this..

Okay anyways..

Saturday night was my last full night of sleep..

Sunday I just was a dumbass and didn't sleep cause I had to study, so I went 25 hours with no sleep.. real healthy, I know.
:yawn:

Anyways thanks for the interest, you can watch me on this dumb endeavor in search of greater productivity haha

 

[Red Dog]

Sunday December 9, 2007

- Zero Sleep
- Jacked full of stimulants (Ginseng, Caffiene, etc)
- Lethargic early Monday morning (7am-8am)
- No decrease of mental clarity

This day was horsesh*t on me with no naps and bad habits everywhere -- more of a prequel..

 

[Red Dog]

Monday December 10, 2007

- MEAL: 4am - Shredded Wheat & Chicken
- MEAL: 7am - Shredded Wheat & Lean Ground Beef
- ACTIVITY: Exam from 10:00am - Noon
- MEAL: 12:15pm - Shake & Oatmeal
- NAP: 12:30 - 3:30pm (recovery from Sunday)
- MEAL: 4:15pm Chicken & Brown Rice
- NAP: 8:00 - 8:30pm
- MEAL: 8:30pm - Chicken & Brown Rice
- MEAL: Midnight - 16 oz Cottage Cheese


**SLEEP TOTAL: 3.5 HOURS**

- Tired throughout the day
- Somewhat refreshed after 3 hour nap
- Very productive
- Normal mental/physical experiences

 

[Jstrong20]

I don't think I'll ever go this route but I am interested to see the results you get.

 

[Red Dog]

ha yeah I wouldn't suggest it to anybody unless you absolutely need an extra 6 hours to do work.. yay but thanks for taggin along..

 

[Red Dog]

Tuesday December 11, 2007

- NAP: 2:00-2:30am
- MEAL: 2:30am - Chicken & Brown Rice
- MEAL: 6:00am - Shredded Wheat & Lean Ground Beef
- NAP: 6:30-7:00am
- MEAL: 9:30am - 10 oz Cottage Cheese
- ACTIVITY: Exam from 10:00-Noon
- ACTIVITY: Exam from Noon-2:00PM
- MEAL: 8 oz Steak & Scrambled Eggs
- NAP: 2:30-6:00pm
- MEAL: 6:00pm - Shredded Wheat & Chicken
- MEAL: 9:00pm - Brown Rice & Chicken
- MEAL: Midnight - 10 oz Cottage Cheese

**TOTAL SLEEP: 4.5 HOURS**

- Alert until 6:30am nap
- Exhausted between 8:00am-2:00pm
- Felt much better after 2nd nap
- Reduced energy throughout
- Mentally sloppy (possibly due to studying, not sleep)
- High stress

*Real crappy day. My cognitive abilities seemed to slip the further I proceded into my exams. I started out perfect and ended up almost rushing so I could go sleep.. Overall felt worse than the first day :yawn: Workouts will start this thursday..

 

[nelix]

I used to do this all the time.
You will be able to do it for at least a month before you get sick of it, I imagine...
Take anti ox before your naps, vit-c, ala, whatever you have on hand.

 

[screw genes]

Good luck brutha...you'd have to pay me a crapload of $$$ to be a guinea pig for something like this...

 

[nelix]

Also some things that might help you, cut out all the stims... they ruin your naps... no caffeine nothing... if you are napping good you won't need them, they will only make you more stressed...

Try some powerful before naps too...

Also l-theanine and ALCAR about an hour before naps with a small low carb meal in the middle is nice. Dosage may need some messing with though.

 

[Red Dog]

thanks sg, and nelix your right, I completely cut out the stims the last 3 days.. I was loaded on sunday cause I absolutely had to stay awake and that was probably why I felt like complete crap later on..

I need to get some powerfull, I never got around to doing it.. I have some poseidon Ive been using but pretty scarce on other supps.. but im sure Ill add some in there soon

 

[celc5]

So before everyone tells me how stupid this idea is and how bad it is for me and how no tissue can be built etc etc, I want to say that I'm sharing this experience just in case anybody around here is interested in sleep science and the results from such an experiment..

well, I'm going to take a different route. You're already well aware that your sleep patterns suck and you don't need another lecture... onward-

I think that this is NOT going to hurt you. Your sleep patterns are so f'd up that you're hardly getting any rem sleep anyway, so how could this system be worse?

The only thing that I have to offer is that about 500mg or 1g of niacin before bed seems to help me fall asleep (this may be psycholigical after the flush).

I also like 1g melatonin and 1g GABA for a sleep stack. Most run all 3 of these supps higher, which does in fact knock you out faster. However, high doses make me feel like crap in the morning unless I sleep for a solid 9 or 10 hours.

Edit: 1mg Melatonin. Good catch Nelix :lol:

 

[Red Dog]

haha I appreciate that.. and yea my pattern was already crap so I figured what the hell..

Ive used Gaba in the past but Im not having any trouble falling asleep anymore.. I was never tired at any point prior to this napping pattern and now I just lay down and am out like nothing.. I do have gaba and melatonin in my cupboard so I can always dip into that if I need to ..

Ive never tried Niacin but I might give it a shot and just see how I react to it.. cant hurt thanks for the input man..

 

[nelix]

well, I'm going to take a different route. You're already well aware that your sleep patterns suck and you don't need another lecture... onward-

I think that this is NOT going to hurt you. Your sleep patterns are so f'd up that you're hardly getting any rem sleep anyway, so how could this system be worse?

The only thing that I have to offer is that about 500mg or 1g of niacin before bed seems to help me fall asleep (this may be psycholigical after the flush).

I also like 1g melatonin and 1g GABA for a sleep stack. Most run all 3 of these supps higher, which does in fact knock you out faster. However, high doses make me feel like crap in the morning unless I sleep for a solid 9 or 10 hours.

1g Melatonin? I highly recommend taking no more than 1mg (and I'm skeletal about the long term effects of even that)
1g GABA + 250mg Phenibut + 100mg Theanine is pretty awesome, but I'd limit it to just the theanine for such short sleep, alcar is good too. (I think I am repeating my self. sorry)

 

[bound]

I've been curious about trying this out for a long time. I actually have been meaning to search AM to see if anyone else had tried it.

I ran across one guy's log on the net a couple years ago. It was pretty detailed, and I believe he kept it up for a couple months.

I do remember that he said that the first two weeks were hell, and that you had to stick to the schedule completely, or your body would never really adjust. Once he had adjusted, though, he loved it. Aparently you do get way more REM than sleeping normally, I know that has been proved in studies. The thing that I wonder about also, is the muscle building/recovery end of things. On the other hand, the CNS recovery could potentially be huge, which could be very cool. That would take some serious looking into, trying to balance a sleep schedule to optomize both physical repair and CNS repair.


I think that it may also be referred to as polyphasic sleep, too.

Found it:Polyphasic Sleep

 

[celc5]

1g Melatonin? I highly recommend taking no more than 1mg (and I'm skeletal about the long term effects of even that)
1g GABA + 250mg Phenibut + 100mg Theanine is pretty awesome, but I'd limit it to just the theanine for such short sleep, alcar is good too. (I think I am repeating my self. sorry)

Yikes! Yup, I goofed on that. 1mg Melatonin :cheers:

 

[nelix]

How is this going?

 

[Red Dog]

hey guys, Im sorry for the time gap between posts.. but yeah, so this was easily the most difficult thing I have ever tried to do.. ha I thought it might not be so bad cause I can function pretty well on 4 or so hours of sleep -- wrong.

Anyways, I tried to adhere to this but found it to be the unintentional demise of my efforts..

**Falling asleep without even realizing it**

I have a lot of time on my hands, but there were several occassions where I would sit down and watch some tv or whatever, and wake up 6 hours later .. which TOTALLY screws up any rhythym I was trying to establish..

My diet however was pretty good as always, and followed the same general guidelines in my first several posts in about a 40/40/20 fashion..

I even went to far as to eliminate all caffiene and stims since I already have a hard time falling asleep..

Anyways, I have started sleeping two-three times a day for a total of about 5 or 6 max hours comprised of this rough pattern..

1 Nap of ~3 hours
2-3 Naps of 30-90 minutes

So unfortunately, I didnt have the balls to finish this bastard arrangement (albeit the reason I failed didn't even any conscious decisions).. and in all honesty I don't suggest anyone EVER try to do that unless you have a ridiculous sleeping disorder..

BUT I think it's valuable to note that the lack of rhythym and lack of 1 big sleep session has not detrimentally affected my training in any noticeable way. Whenever I go to work out Im damn ready to go and all my lifts are the same or better than they were over a week ago. Keep in mind i'm getting 2-3 hours less sleep each day than the recommended amount..

So here is a few points I found interesting in the NEW pattern..

- No decrease in strength
- No decrease in energy
- No noticeable change in mass/weight
- An INCREASE in hunger
- An INCREASE in food consumed
- An INCREASE in day-to-day productivity
- A noticeably reduced level of stress

It would be hard to comment on influences on muscle growth, which may be more significantly impacted than strength, but we'll just have to see since I can't really gauge that in such a short time period..

I apologize to everyone who was anticipating better results, but I can truly tell you that the ~5 days I had done the patterns I was unconsciously falling asleep -- something thats never good or productive.. haha my body demanded I submit so I had to..

Anyways, I will be updating this thread and letting everyone know how I am faring on this much more adaptable pattern of 3/4 long naps whenever I get tired.. It should be interesting to see if growth and strength can be stimulated in a "sleep deficient" environment..

Thanks to everybody for your advice and attention, any questions or suggestions are more than welcome and Im always willing to tweak, alter, and revise components of my training and lifestyle.. :cheers:

 

[nelix]

You cannot do this while bored, you need to be busy.
I find it is only good for a few days, I was never able to keep it up for more than a week.

 

[bound]

Red Dog, were you using an alarm clock and just sleeping through it? Once I get around to trying it, I figured the best way to get the naps would be to make an MP3 track of white noise about 25 minutes long with loud beeping at the end for an alarm. I could just throw on my headphones. This way I could get the naps in even if the environment wasn't perfect, i.e. my car, where I'd have to take at least three of my naps.

I'll be sure to log it when I try it, but it won't be for a while, at least march.

 

[nelix]

I want to get an EEG, so I can have it alarm when my REM sleep cycle is over.

There is a watch with an EEG being released in March.

 

[Red Dog]

ya I think those are both good ideas guys..

yes I was using an alarm clock (sometimes my cell phone) and it always woke me up no problem when I was planning a nap -- The part that got me was I obviously didn't set an alarm when I wasn't planning on going to sleep! haha and those accidental sleep sessions are what was killing my rhythym.

I feel like you could definitely get used to the process if you don't accidentally fvck up like I did and mess the cycle up.. cause then you pretty much have to readjust!

In all honesty I had alot to do and was busy the majority of the time, but god damn, you sit down and the next thing you know its 3-4 hours later and your like wtf just happened?

But good luck if ya do try it -- its a hell of a challenge!

 

[bound]

I want to get an EEG, so I can have it alarm when my REM sleep cycle is over.

There is a watch with an EEG being released in March.

DUDE! You could do ALL kinds of cool stuff with that.

 

[nelix]

In any case it seems like you learned some thing about your self and sleep.

ya I think those are both good ideas guys..

yes I was using an alarm clock (sometimes my cell phone) and it always woke me up no problem when I was planning a nap -- The part that got me was I obviously didn't set an alarm when I wasn't planning on going to sleep! haha and those accidental sleep sessions are what was killing my rhythym.

I feel like you could definitely get used to the process if you don't accidentally fvck up like I did and mess the cycle up.. cause then you pretty much have to readjust!

In all honesty I had alot to do and was busy the majority of the time, but god damn, you sit down and the next thing you know its 3-4 hours later and your like wtf just happened?

But good luck if ya do try it -- its a hell of a challenge!