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Developing lower lats?

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    Developing lower lats?


    What are some good lifts for the lower lats? Mine suck ass. I have pretty good upper back/lat development but nothing at the bottom
    Also unlike the other thread, im not looking to "widen" my lower lats, just develop them more

    Back "Relaxed" (Not lat spread)





    Thanks
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    Ll


    my favorite are the one-arm cable rows, underhand grip pull-ups and pull downs, but you can't beat one-arm cable rows.

    here's a tip, take a stool or something to sit on and go towards a cable machine. Position yourself so you can get a complete full stretch( i'm talking about your chest touching your knees) So, when you start your rep make sure your pinky is higher than your thumb and then twist the handle so the top of your hand is
    parallel to the floor. A lot of people touch the ribs with the handle but I never could get a full stretch with this so I go a little further towards the outside and a little lower. Kudos to the Arnold Encyclodpedia...you should go buy it. BTW most people don't even work their back and especially kill for yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by warbird01 View Post
    What are some good lifts for the lower lats? Mine suck ass. I have pretty good upper back/lat development but nothing at the bottom
    Also unlike the other thread, im not looking to "widen" my lower lats, just develop them more

    Back "Relaxed" (Not lat spread)





    Thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by szeleale View Post
    my favorite are the one-arm cable rows, underhand grip pull-ups and pull downs, but you can't beat one-arm cable rows.

    here's a tip, take a stool or something to sit on and go towards a cable machine. Position yourself so you can get a complete full stretch( i'm talking about your chest touching your knees) So, when you start your rep make sure your pinky is higher than your thumb and then twist the handle so the top of your hand is
    parallel to the floor. A lot of people touch the ribs with the handle but I never could get a full stretch with this so I go a little further towards the outside and a little lower. Kudos to the Arnold Encyclodpedia...you should go buy it. BTW most people don't even work their back and especially kill for yours.
    thansk man. Im jsut kinda confused about the stool, why not just sit on the bad/bench thing that your supposed to use for the cable row?
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    Great advice szeleale!

    What you might also consider is neutral grip t-bar row! It has helped me a lot!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blake100 View Post
    Great advice szeleale!

    What you might also consider is neutral grip t-bar row! It has helped me a lot!
    yeah i love heavy t bar rows! What exactly is neutral grip tho?
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    Quote Originally Posted by warbird01 View Post
    yeah i love heavy t bar rows! What exactly is neutral grip tho?
    Palms facing inward. You can use a V-Handle if your T-Bar Row doesn't have a neutral grip on it.
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    Bent-over barbell rows are tough to beat -- arguably the best for more massive lats . . .
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClintCanada View Post
    Bent-over barbell rows are tough to beat -- arguably the best for more massive lats . . .
    True!

    But we're not after massive lats here, we're talking about lower lat development.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Palms facing inward. You can use a V-Handle if your T-Bar Row doesn't have a neutral grip on it.
    ah, yes. I only do free weight t bar rows with the v bar attachment
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClintCanada View Post
    Bent-over barbell rows are tough to beat -- arguably the best for more massive lats . . .
    I dont like rows too much. I love to go heavy on compounds but i dont feel that with me i can go heavy without massivly sacrificing my form too bad. With the weight my back can handle i just get too upright, i dunno. I like t bar rows much better
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    Scapula Rotations
    Larry Scott



    "Larry" said my friend Russ one day at the gym, "I notice you have a distinct shelf on the bottom of your lats. How did you get that? I get the width I want in my back, but I feel shallow right down at the bottom. Do you know of anything that will hit this area of the back?"

    "Sure," I replied, "I'll show you something you're going to love. First, finish your lat work so the lats are completely exhausted. This little trick won't work unless your Lats are completely tired out."

    "You got it," said Russ, a former Mr. Utah and holder of innumerable regional titles, proceeding with his lat routine.

    "Now let me show you something that Lou Degni showed me over 20 years ago," I explained when Russ was ready. "I have never seen anybody besides Lou who knew anything about it. If you can get the movement right, it will bring out the lower lats just one set.

    "First, before you begin, just so you can see how trendously it will pump your lower lats, I want you to take off your shirt and look closely right here," I said, pointing to the exact spot that was going be worked. We both looked in the mirror to where I was pointing.

    "I see it," said Russ.

    "This is the area that is going to get pumped," I said. "You will be able to place a finger under the lip of the extra size right after you do two or three sets. The movement is called the hanging scapula rotation. You are trying to get the scapula to rotate, which is the actual movement of the back when the lats are working.

    "The bending of the arms is incidental to working the lats," I continued. "If a person could get the scapula to rotate without bending the arms, he could work pure lats and not arms. That's what we are trying to do here, bending the arms as little as possible, hardly at all in fact.

    "So get your chinning straps and, with the palms facing forward, get up on the bar with your hands just a little wider than shoulder width. On second thought, Russ, your shoulders are so wide perhaps you ought to get a grip at about shoulder width. (Russ has won more best shoulders trophies than anyone in the area.)

    "All right, now comes the difficult part," I told my friend. "I want you to raise your ribcage as high as possible without bending the arms. That's it. Higher. You have to raise it until it hurts. No, don't bend the arms, just raise the ribcage. Now, at the same time draw the scapulae in as much as you can. Look in the mirror, Russ."

    "I don't know what you mean by drawing in the scapulae," Russ complained.

    "You are trying to get the scapulae to rotate as much as possible through their entire range of movement," I said. "So you have to start by getting them in as far as possible at the top of the movement because you are soon going to have them out as far as possible on the bottom of the movement. Look in the mirror and try to make yourself as narrow as possible while you have the ribcage raised. That's it.

    "All right, now slowly lower the ribcage about halfway down and flip the scapulae through hard. No, you have to really throw them through."

    "What do you mean?" he asked.

    "Try to make yourself as wide as possible," I answered.

    "Try it again, Russ. Start at the top and slowly lower yourself. All right, now! Right there. Throw the lats forward. Yes, that's it. Now don't come down. Stay right there.

    Slowly lower the ribcage with the lats flattened hard against the back. The harder you can hold the lats against the back and keep them there as you lower the ribcage, the more that lower section of the back is going to work. Try it again. Only this time do it slower."

    After a few reps, Russ started to get the hang of it. Still a little awkward about throwing the lats forward at precisely the right time, but improving.

    After a couple of sets, I said: "All right, Russ, look at the lower section of your lats. See how they are pumped?"

    "Man, that's great, Larry," he said. "That's a killer. Wow, you are right! I can really feel it. This is terrific. I am going to do a few more."

    "Remember," I reminded him, "this exercise will only be good for about a week and you will start to go stale on it. It doesn't mean the exercise is no good. If just means the body has finally figured out what it is you are doing and it doesn't need to secrete any more growth hormone in response. So drop the exercise for a few weeks and then come back to it. You will find it is just as good as the first time. You should always do it at the end of your back workout. If you use it in this fashion, you will be able to add the elusive heart shape to your lower lats."

    Hanging scapula rotations are a lot of fun. Granted, they do hurt, but to see that shelf stick out on the bottom of the lats makes it all worthwhile.
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    Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    Scapula Rotations
    Larry Scott



    "Larry" said my friend Russ one day at the gym, "I notice you have a distinct shelf on the bottom of your lats. How did you get that? I get the width I want in my back, but I feel shallow right down at the bottom. Do you know of anything that will hit this area of the back?"

    "Sure," I replied, "I'll show you something you're going to love. First, finish your lat work so the lats are completely exhausted. This little trick won't work unless your Lats are completely tired out."

    "You got it," said Russ, a former Mr. Utah and holder of innumerable regional titles, proceeding with his lat routine.

    "Now let me show you something that Lou Degni showed me over 20 years ago," I explained when Russ was ready. "I have never seen anybody besides Lou who knew anything about it. If you can get the movement right, it will bring out the lower lats just one set.

    "First, before you begin, just so you can see how trendously it will pump your lower lats, I want you to take off your shirt and look closely right here," I said, pointing to the exact spot that was going be worked. We both looked in the mirror to where I was pointing.

    "I see it," said Russ.

    "This is the area that is going to get pumped," I said. "You will be able to place a finger under the lip of the extra size right after you do two or three sets. The movement is called the hanging scapula rotation. You are trying to get the scapula to rotate, which is the actual movement of the back when the lats are working.

    "The bending of the arms is incidental to working the lats," I continued. "If a person could get the scapula to rotate without bending the arms, he could work pure lats and not arms. That's what we are trying to do here, bending the arms as little as possible, hardly at all in fact.

    "So get your chinning straps and, with the palms facing forward, get up on the bar with your hands just a little wider than shoulder width. On second thought, Russ, your shoulders are so wide perhaps you ought to get a grip at about shoulder width. (Russ has won more best shoulders trophies than anyone in the area.)

    "All right, now comes the difficult part," I told my friend. "I want you to raise your ribcage as high as possible without bending the arms. That's it. Higher. You have to raise it until it hurts. No, don't bend the arms, just raise the ribcage. Now, at the same time draw the scapulae in as much as you can. Look in the mirror, Russ."

    "I don't know what you mean by drawing in the scapulae," Russ complained.

    "You are trying to get the scapulae to rotate as much as possible through their entire range of movement," I said. "So you have to start by getting them in as far as possible at the top of the movement because you are soon going to have them out as far as possible on the bottom of the movement. Look in the mirror and try to make yourself as narrow as possible while you have the ribcage raised. That's it.

    "All right, now slowly lower the ribcage about halfway down and flip the scapulae through hard. No, you have to really throw them through."

    "What do you mean?" he asked.

    "Try to make yourself as wide as possible," I answered.

    "Try it again, Russ. Start at the top and slowly lower yourself. All right, now! Right there. Throw the lats forward. Yes, that's it. Now don't come down. Stay right there.

    Slowly lower the ribcage with the lats flattened hard against the back. The harder you can hold the lats against the back and keep them there as you lower the ribcage, the more that lower section of the back is going to work. Try it again. Only this time do it slower."

    After a few reps, Russ started to get the hang of it. Still a little awkward about throwing the lats forward at precisely the right time, but improving.

    After a couple of sets, I said: "All right, Russ, look at the lower section of your lats. See how they are pumped?"

    "Man, that's great, Larry," he said. "That's a killer. Wow, you are right! I can really feel it. This is terrific. I am going to do a few more."

    "Remember," I reminded him, "this exercise will only be good for about a week and you will start to go stale on it. It doesn't mean the exercise is no good. If just means the body has finally figured out what it is you are doing and it doesn't need to secrete any more growth hormone in response. So drop the exercise for a few weeks and then come back to it. You will find it is just as good as the first time. You should always do it at the end of your back workout. If you use it in this fashion, you will be able to add the elusive heart shape to your lower lats."

    Hanging scapula rotations are a lot of fun. Granted, they do hurt, but to see that shelf stick out on the bottom of the lats makes it all worthwhile.
    Dude thanks!! Thats exactly what i was talking about!! I would LOVE to have that "shelf". I didint know how to put it before, but thats exactly what i was tlking about!
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    i need to call Mr. Scott for a lesson or two. lol. its kind of hard to understand about the throwing the lats out.....
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    yeah thats sounds like a killer but i still dont get what he was talking about besides hanging from a chin bar lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by warbird01 View Post
    thansk man. Im jsut kinda confused about the stool, why not just sit on the bad/bench thing that your supposed to use for the cable row?
    In my case, I could never get a full stretch on the cable row machine, but maybe you could. I like a stool because I can adjust the distance to where it feels good, but by all means, use the cable row machine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blake100 View Post
    True!

    But we're not after massive lats here, we're talking about lower lat development.
    I thought they would be good for upper AND lower -- is there a way to grip or position your body with barbell rows to focus more on lower lats ??
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClintCanada View Post
    I thought they would be good for upper AND lower -- is there a way to grip or position your body with barbell rows to focus more on lower lats ??
    Underhand grip would be better for lower lats, as you could go closer to the tighs. You need to pull the bar to your hips, rubbing your quads, and when you can't go further, imagine you need to touch your elbows and keep pulling for a moment. Then return the bar to the starting position in a controled fashion.
    But t-bar rows with a neutral grip(palms facing each other, it's also the most natural grip) are basically bent over rows with a neutral grip!...
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    when going underhand watch that your biceps don't come into play too much. I see this in the gym everyday.
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    What..??
    Heavy Bent over BB Rows are just about the best exercise you can do to develop the lower lats...
    Quote Originally Posted by Blake100 View Post
    True!

    But we're not after massive lats here, we're talking about lower lat development.
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    Chinups, i.e. palms facing you. Arch your back throughout the movement and shoot for the lower rep ranges since the inferior portion of the lats tends to be more fast twitch fibers. Go all the way down and bring your sternum up to hit the bar. No cheating by swinging your body and looking like you're having a seizure.
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    I just wanted to point out a couple things here for lat development.

    A few key points:

    1. The lats cross the shoulder joint and also a portion attaches to the hip.

    2. The superior fibers are less fast twitch than the inferior portion (and chinups, v-bar chinups target the inferior more)

    3. The lats act to internally rotate the humerus.

    So for number 1, what this means is you should get a good stretch in the lats when you work them, which means you have to bend at the hips at the bottom of a barbell row. This will put a good stretch on the lats.

    No.2 just means make sure you don't skimp on the 5-8 rep range for building the lower lats.

    No. 3 means the pronated hand position in a barbell row is better for the lats.


    Give this a shot next time you do standing barbell rows. Use an approx shoulder width grip, palms facing you (pronated). Deadlift the weight up, ARCH THE BACK, and then go into the row position while keeping the back arched hard. The elbows should stay near the body, and as you lower the weight, bend at the hips, so when you are at the bottom you are bent over pretty well with your arms 98% extended. Stand on a platform if needed to do this. Don't allow the arms to fully extend as this takes tension off the lats and requires the arm flexors to get it moving again. KEEP THE BACK ARCHED this whole time, and then row the weight up, minimizing assistance from the hips. Use a slower negative portion.

    This sounds complicated and honestly if all you've ever done is heave the weights around it will be at first. however once you get it down, it's simple. You'll feel your back being worked, especially the lats, a LOT more with this method vs. just heaving the weight up each rep. Make the muscles work! Don't just go for heaviest weight. This may require you to lower your normal rowing weight, but trust me you'll feel it in the lats if done right.
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    reps!
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    never knew that BB bent over rows can develop your lats. always felt them in my mid-back and hamstrings for that matter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mo250 View Post
    never knew that BB bent over rows can develop your lats. always felt them in my mid-back and hamstrings for that matter.

    Try them with your back arched HARD and as I mentioned. A HUGE key is the arched back, but so, too, is the bending at the hips part.

    You ought to feel it hit your lats HARD doing it this way.

    No one does them like that, either.
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    I do them with my body perpendicular to the floor. I think its called pendley rows or something similar. the problem is my posterior chain- lower back and hamstrings- always fatigue first and I never seem to get anything out of the movement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mo250 View Post
    I do them with my body perpendicular to the floor. I think its called pendley rows or something similar. the problem is my posterior chain- lower back and hamstrings- always fatigue first and I never seem to get anything out of the movement.

    It worries me that you can row with good form enough weight to significantly stress your posterior chain.

    I'd push up your squat and deadlift numbers. Deadlifting will help build a massive back, too.
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    In addition to the 'throwing your lats out/ribcage raising' thing, which is a great one, you can do the first half of a 'skin-the-cat'. A 'skin-the-cat' is where you hang from a bar with your hands facing away, and keeping your elbows straight, with your knees tucked up to your chest, rotate your body up and bring your knees between your arms, continuing on down until you've got your feet pointed back down towards the ground. Like doing a backflip while hanging from a jungle gym when you were little.

    Instead of doing the whole thing, just rotate up until your back is a little past level, and then lower back down. It's sort of like a pullover, except you move your body, not a dumbell. Once you get stronger, you just keep extending your legs a bit at a time to add resistance. Once you're totally badass, just do planche pullups.
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    You could try using a narrow grip for pull-ups and pulldowns, such as using a v-bar. By changing the angle of the muscle, you can recruit more muscle fibers from the lower area of the lats, due to the muscle angle relative to insertion, relative to the resistance of gravity. These are two of the better exercises if you're really wanting to target your lower lats.

    For well rounded back development, you have to get creative with your back exercises.
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    post vids of these moves please
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    Hammer rows to the waist are the best that I've found
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugger View Post
    Hammer rows to the waist are the best that I've found
    what kind
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    here's a skin the cat vid at least: skin the cat - Google Video It's the third one down.
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    Not a planche pull-up... Although this guy just looks like a tool.

    YouTube - No Feet Pushups (planche pushups) and Pull-ups 21-15-9 3:15

    This is...

    YouTube - 11-05-2007 some weird pullup thing

    This guy, was trained by circus monkeys!

    YouTube - Clapping Pullups
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    You can try standing DB rows. Dont use a bench to put your knee on like usual DB rows. Bend over, with the DB starting in front of you on ground, and put the forearm of the arm not being used on your quad. Do rows that way,..... they will hit practically what you were before, with the addition of the lower lats being targeted more in the movement due to the angle, and the DB being pulled more "over" the body. I saw a pic of Branch Warren doin these like 2 years ago,..tried them myself,....been doing them ever since.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brk_nemesis View Post
    You can try standing DB rows. Dont use a bench to put your knee on like usual DB rows. Bend over, with the DB starting in front of you on ground, and put the forearm of the arm not being used on your quad. Do rows that way,..... they will hit practically what you were before, with the addition of the lower lats being targeted more in the movement due to the angle, and the DB being pulled more "over" the body. I saw a pic of Branch Warren doin these like 2 years ago,..tried them myself,....been doing them ever since.
    i got props from an older bber at my gym when he saw me doing the DB row this way. He said thats the old way to do it, freestanding with hand on quad. He said he never sees anyone do them that way anymore. I have shyed away from DB rows as of late tho.

    This is an example of hanging scapular retractions and hit the lower lats esp. YouTube - Hanging Scapular Retraction
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    I've always had great lower lat development, check out musculardevelopment.com for their tip of the week, its for lower lats this time, its just hammer strength rows. Whenever I do them I make sure to bring my elbow around my back a bit to get the scapular rotation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil5585 View Post
    I just wanted to point out a couple things here for lat development.

    A few key points:

    1. The lats cross the shoulder joint and also a portion attaches to the hip.

    2. The superior fibers are less fast twitch than the inferior portion (and chinups, v-bar chinups target the inferior more)

    3. The lats act to internally rotate the humerus.

    So for number 1, what this means is you should get a good stretch in the lats when you work them, which means you have to bend at the hips at the bottom of a barbell row. This will put a good stretch on the lats.

    No.2 just means make sure you don't skimp on the 5-8 rep range for building the lower lats.

    No. 3 means the pronated hand position in a barbell row is better for the lats.


    Give this a shot next time you do standing barbell rows. Use an approx shoulder width grip, palms facing you (pronated). Deadlift the weight up, ARCH THE BACK, and then go into the row position while keeping the back arched hard. The elbows should stay near the body, and as you lower the weight, bend at the hips, so when you are at the bottom you are bent over pretty well with your arms 98% extended. Stand on a platform if needed to do this. Don't allow the arms to fully extend as this takes tension off the lats and requires the arm flexors to get it moving again. KEEP THE BACK ARCHED this whole time, and then row the weight up, minimizing assistance from the hips. Use a slower negative portion.

    This sounds complicated and honestly if all you've ever done is heave the weights around it will be at first. however once you get it down, it's simple. You'll feel your back being worked, especially the lats, a LOT more with this method vs. just heaving the weight up each rep. Make the muscles work! Don't just go for heaviest weight. This may require you to lower your normal rowing weight, but trust me you'll feel it in the lats if done right.
    Ive been lifting for about 10 years and im 28. That is some good information that will help me build my lats more. Thanks
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