Routine while on gear - AnabolicMinds.com

Routine while on gear

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    Routine while on gear


    After completing a successful cycle of Test E and Dbol six months ago I am about to start my second cycle of Test E, EQ, and Dbol for 12 weeks.

    I gained 25 and kept 20 from last cycle, however bc I was doing a power lifting routine at the time so I just got big and bulky not defined....For this cycle I want to put on a lot of lean muscle and wanted to incorporate a high rep bodybuilding routine. I am open to suggestions and looking for example routines you guys follow....

    Thanks in advance for the help

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    being defined is based on your diet not so much your lifting routine. If you want to get defined I would say make sure your diet is clean and add some cardio in during the cycle to help with this. You can always check out the nutrition section for good clean diets to use while bulking. lots of good info there.
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    regardless I was looking for example routines as I have never done a high volume routine
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    Quote Originally Posted by pushpull24 View Post
    regardless I was looking for example routines as I have never done a high volume routine
    Ohhh....you can always look at HST or german volume training (gvt). both are found on here and are high volume training.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pushpull24 View Post
    regardless I was looking for example routines as I have never done a high volume routine
    I have trained at high volume to cut for the past two summers. My program goes like this:

    1) Compound power move with heavy straight sets
    2) A lower body isolation move with drops or supersets (moderate reps)
    3) Uppper Body compound move with drops or supersets (moderate reps)
    4) Upper body isolation move with drops or supersets (high reps)


    An example split would be:
    1) Quads, shoulders, traps
    2) Hams, back, bis
    3) Chest, tris, calves

    An example workout for day 2 might be:

    1. Straight leg deads (3-5 heavy working sets 5-8 reps)
    2. Hamstring Curls (2 drop sets; 12-15 reps)
    3. Wide Grip Pullups Superset with Barbell Rows (3 sets at around 8-12 reps)
    4. Barbell Curl Superset with Incline Curl (2-3 sets of 12-15 reps)

    I can usually run this style of routine for about 6-8 weeks before my body screams mercy during a cut. I do light cardio and abs on the off days and I cut up fast.

    If this looks interesting to you, I'll gladly share more details on my workout philosophy for the other 2 days.

    I've also done this routine in a 4 day split where lats are seperate from mid back which works well for me also.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pushpull24 View Post
    regardless I was looking for example routines as I have never done a high volume routine
    Heres what I did on my last cycle.

    3 to 4 exercises per bodypart.
    4 sets per exercise.
    Reps: 12x, 12x, 10x (or 8x), 10x (or 8x)

    3 days per week.

    Day 1 - Chest & Back
    Day 2 - Shoulders, Bis, Tris, Forearms and Traps
    Day 3 - Legs, Calves & Deadlifts
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    Quote Originally Posted by celc5 View Post
    I have trained at high volume to cut for the past two summers. My program goes like this:

    1) Compound power move with heavy straight sets
    2) A lower body isolation move with drops or supersets (moderate reps)
    3) Uppper Body compound move with drops or supersets (moderate reps)
    4) Upper body isolation move with drops or supersets (high reps)


    An example split would be:
    1) Quads, shoulders, traps
    2) Hams, back, bis
    3) Chest, tris, calves

    An example workout for day 2 might be:

    1. Straight leg deads (3-5 heavy working sets 5-8 reps)
    2. Hamstring Curls (2 drop sets; 12-15 reps)
    3. Wide Grip Pullups Superset with Barbell Rows (3 sets at around 8-12 reps)
    4. Barbell Curl Superset with Incline Curl (2-3 sets of 12-15 reps)

    I can usually run this style of routine for about 6-8 weeks before my body screams mercy during a cut. I do light cardio and abs on the off days and I cut up fast.

    If this looks interesting to you, I'll gladly share more details on my workout philosophy for the other 2 days.

    I've also done this routine in a 4 day split where lats are seperate from mid back which works well for me also.
    Yeah i am very interested in hearing more I wanted to focus on my chest and arms which are lacking compared to the rest of my body....any suggestions
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    Quote Originally Posted by pushpull24 View Post
    Yeah i am very interested in hearing more I wanted to focus on my chest and arms which are lacking compared to the rest of my body....any suggestions
    Hmm, I'm thinking an "upper" chest day and a "lower" chest day would be fun as he11. I've done that before with some killer results.

    Are you more focused on bis or tris? Hitting 3 different muscle groups twice each (per week) is gonna make for some loooooong workouts...

    How many days are you willing to lift per week?

    How much time per session are you willing to put in?
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    Bump, I would like to hear more. I am also about to start a 12-14 week cycle of Test enth and EQ, kicking off with epistane. I have been doing moderate volume 4-5 days a week training for a long time and I have responded pretty well to it, but recently I feel like gaining is very hard. one will be growing and recovering ON cycle with any kind of reasonable exercise but If ON, then the most effecient workout routine would be ideal. Some people are saying that they workout on 3-4 times\week while ON but doesnt this seem like there are workout days being wasted? especially since the recovery ability is greatly increased... I like the 5x5 variation idea which is 4 days a week and maybe including some iso work and\or an extra day of light iso work (arms, calves etc). Even though it is still possible to overtrain while ON gear, I was always under the impression that 5-6 days\week training with the occasional 3-4 day trainiing week, would allow you to get the most out of your cycle while still not overtraining....(some people even feel like they can workout twice a day, but to me thats just pushing the limit of overtraining and not having time for the rest of your life)


    basically...What has everyone had the most success with? there has to be more people with opinions...
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    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    I like the 5x5 variation idea which is 4 days a week and maybe including some iso work and\or an extra day of light iso work (arms, calves etc)
    You're on to something here. I'm a big believer that you can train for power, hypertrophy, and pump all in one shot, especially while on cycle.

    Along the lines of what you are saying, start with a power move at 5x5. Follow up with 3 or 4 sets of 8-12 (or in your favorite "typical" pyramid or taper fashion). Finish off with 3 or 4 drop sets OR supersets. Train each body part from 2 different angles and you'll have yourself a killer routine.

    Like I said in above post, pick 2 body parts that you want to hit twice per week and I'll gladly post an example routine centered around exactly what you want. By the looks of your pic, you don't NEED 2 back days bud... WHOA!
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    Quote Originally Posted by celc5 View Post
    You're on to something here. I'm a big believer that you can train for power, hypertrophy, and pump all in one shot, especially while on cycle.

    Along the lines of what you are saying, start with a power move at 5x5. Follow up with 3 or 4 sets of 8-12 (or in your favorite "typical" pyramid or taper fashion). Finish off with 3 or 4 drop sets OR supersets. Train each body part from 2 different angles and you'll have yourself a killer routine.

    Like I said in above post, pick 2 body parts that you want to hit twice per week and I'll gladly post an example routine centered around exactly what you want. By the looks of your pic, you don't NEED 2 back days bud... WHOA!
    lol thanks for the compliment bro. Im just healing up a partial tear in my right pec tendon. Ive rested chest for 8 weeks, ive been using oratropin-1 and pGH subq shots to assist in the healing. Im on my second week of chest exercising again and its healing nice. the tendons are just mighty tender in the front delt and the pec from the chest movements that my body hasnt been accustomed to in a while. My back has always been easy to build and hella strong. My quads get pretty beefy too but my arms are so lacking (IMO). I used to think that i didnt train them enough and now i think that they're overtrained and i should focus more on a 5x5 and maybe a "little" iso work for arms. My calves SUCK...i mean they're improving but im just overzealous haha. Forearms are tiny(in my perspective) as well.

    so being that i feel my arms need to do some big time growing...do you feel I should incorporate them twice per week? or choose two other muscle groups.

    Im really glad you agree with my training perspective..and i like your variations of the 5x5 and I also agree with your hypertrophy,power,pump theory..

    Could you post an example routine anyway? I would really be interested in the detailed layout, especially because you claim success with it. If you feel my arms should be hit twice a week then you can use those muscle groups to put in the sample routine. if not then just pick whichever you liked doing twice\week best and then I can learn how to manipulate the routine and rotate which groups get trained twice. I am a firm believer that constant variation is key to success beyond plateu's
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    by the way here is an example of a 4-day 5x5 variant program that i found on another site. a few users claim to have had success with it. I agree with possibly training 3 days when off cycle but while ON i just think 4 is the bear minimum (at least for me) otherwise I'll feel like im wasting my time, gear, money, and muscle.


    Option 2 Upper and lower body split

    Monday (upper body)
    Bench Press
    Barbell row
    Dumbbell curl
    Skull crusher\pressdown

    Tuesday (lower body)
    Deadlift
    Hack Squat
    Barbell Lunge
    Calf raises

    Thursday (upper body)
    Incline Bench Press
    Barbell row
    Hammer curl
    Weighted tricep dips\skull crusher

    Friday (lower body)
    Romanian Deadlift
    Barbell Squat
    Dumbbell Lunge
    Seated Calf Raise
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    That's a nice split but I'm not a fan of 1 exercise for a muscle group on 1 day and then doing 1 more exercise for that group a second time that week. IMO just hit it from both angles all in one superset or in 2 seperate exercises on the same day.

    After the pec tear, be careful not to put too much tension on it in a stretched position. I'd be leary of incline presses, traditional military presses, any flies or CCOs, and definately no dips. Pushing out an extra rep or adding just a few extra pounds on those movements could set you back 6 months as 8 weeks is a super fast healing time. If you ask me, pull... then pull... then pull some more and your pecs will catch up at their own pace.

    So I have some ideas to help catch up the lagging arms and I'll be sure that they aren't angles which will put your pec in a compromised position as well. I'll post a plan where bis follow back on 1 day and hams on another. Then tris will follow chest 1 day and then quads on another.
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    Quote Originally Posted by celc5 View Post
    That's a nice split but I'm not a fan of 1 exercise for a muscle group on 1 day and then doing 1 more exercise for that group a second time that week. IMO just hit it from both angles all in one superset or in 2 seperate exercises on the same day.

    After the pec tear, be careful not to put too much tension on it in a stretched position. I'd be leary of incline presses, traditional military presses, any flies or CCOs, and definately no dips. Pushing out an extra rep or adding just a few extra pounds on those movements could set you back 6 months as 8 weeks is a super fast healing time. If you ask me, pull... then pull... then pull some more and your pecs will catch up at their own pace.

    So I have some ideas to help catch up the lagging arms and I'll be sure that they aren't angles which will put your pec in a compromised position as well. I'll post a plan where bis follow back on 1 day and hams on another. Then tris will follow chest 1 day and then quads on another.


    awesome man, I really like these ideas that you have. they are quite similar to my own. I was just running out of split ideas. Im excited to hear yours routine when you post it. also if there are any underlying theories or rules to create a plan like this post them too that way I can understand how its working and modify the plan in the future for continued growth.

    as for the healing, i dont waste time, i just right on oratropin-1 ive been using that for 2 months with pGH and alot of cissus, glucosamine, chondroiton, MSM, Sam-e etc. I hate injuries! they sure do teach you how to train right though....
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    I'll gladly post some of my theories for this routine when I get a chance. In the mean time, here's an example routine:

    Focus of this routine is to hit bis and tris twice per week. Consideration is also taken for "cautious" movements to avoid compromising the pec (I'm a physical therapist in case you're wondering my credibility with mentioning the injury over and over).

    Monday (quads/short tris)
    Squats (5x5)
    Leg Extension (2x20 or 2xdrop sets)
    Decline skull crushers (5x5)
    Cable Pushdowns (2x20 or 2x drop sets)

    Tuesday (back and short bis)
    BB Row (5x5)
    Lat Pulldowns (2x20 or 2x drop sets)
    EZ Preacher Curl (5x5)
    Standing Cable Curl (2x20 reps or 2x drop sets)

    Thursday (chest and long tris)
    Decline Bench (5x5)
    DB Flat Bench (2x20 or 2x drop sets)
    Flat skull crushers (5x5)
    DB overhead (2x20 or drops... substitute incline triceps extensions if db overhead irritates pec issue)

    Friday (hams and long bis)
    SLDL (5x5)
    Ham Curls (2x20 or drops)
    BB Curls (5x5)
    Incline DB curls (2x20 or drops)

    Saturday (shoulders and abs)
    Shrugs (5x5) SS posterior delts (reps following each set)
    Lateral raise (3x15-20) SS Neutral grip DB press with slight incline (3x15-20) (pre-exhausted with the laterals and modified to avoid pec irritation)
    Abs- you're capable of creating a core routine

    *obviously, add a third set or more advanced techniques for the isolation/rep range moves when energy/time permits
    *calves can be added to any of the above routines. I prefer (5x5) supersetting with burn outs with body weight or seated for the soleus
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    sounds good man. This is EXACTLY the type of training routine I was trying to develop. definately post the theories behing formulating it when you get a chance. I felt the partial tear when i was doing heavy DB shoulder press. it just felt like velcro tore a bit. no real swelling. Its definately not a genuine full tear but i dont wish to injure it any further. I like the the fact that you are a physical therapist, that definately makes me trust your word even more. Just as you suspected, the decline chest presses dont really aggrivate it, and i have been doing alot of lateral work for shoulders.

    Im not framiliar with this exercise though, "SS Neutral grip DB press with slight incline "
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    Ha ha... that was my "I got i a hurry" abbreviations

    SS = superset with
    Neutral grip = palms in (easy on the rotator cuff and less tension on the pec tendon)
    DB press = no translation required
    slight incline = use an adjustable bench and set on the steepest incline setting that is less than 90 degrees (usually 65 or 70ish) (same reasoning as the neutral grip)

    Theory:

    Exercise choice:

    Most major muscle groups are trained in at LEAST 2 angles. I originally read this concept in an interview with Arnold but solidified the concept in anatomy and kinesiology classes. This is the most important concept that you can learn when designing a routine IMO.

    For example, focus of bis, tris, quads, hams, and calves is varied by muscle length across 2 joints.

    Focus of pec is USUALLY by particular fibers addressed. Although you are avoiding upper fiber specific exercises which MAY compromise your injury. Note that in this case, most fibers FIRE across all angles... just to varying degrees of which ones take the brunt of the load.

    In some routines, it's also an option to treat lats and rhomboids/interscapulars as 2 seperate muscle groups. I frequently do this for upper and lower abs well. Although it's difficult to isolate these exercises, it is possible to sway the brunt of force to particular fibers IMO.

    Rep schemes:

    1) 5x5 is tried and true for power. The same goes for 8-12 reps for growth. There is no need to try to alter what works, but adding to and modifying these concepts can be what pushes us to the next level.

    2) P/RR/S concepts are some of the best THEORY that I've read, especially when trying to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time (like we all want to do on cycle). Problem is, doing a power week only once every 3 weeks neglects that power moves are in a large part a skill. They require "practice" by the muscle groups and neurologic systems to make progress. You've seen many times on powerlifting forums where successful competitors will deadlift 2-3 times per week. Sounds insane but it works for them because of the skill aspect to lifting heavy.

    Remedy this problem by incorporating power moves right into your hypertrophy routine.

    Also, this routine gives you the opportunity to incorporate P/RR/S tempo concepts, if you are mentally able to keep up with the changes within one routine. This helps to force firing of type I, IIa, and IIb fibers types.

    3) It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that you need to do either high reps or a shock technique to get a pump. Bodybuilding should be a FUN hobby/lifestyle and the pump is certainly one of the most fun aspects of lifting. Contrary to most die hard sources, I believe the pump has its place in our routines, even if it only serves as a mood enhancer, ego booster, and confidence builder.

    In order to efficiently incorporate the pump into your routine, try drop sets. For example, perform 8-12 reps to failure of a specific exercise as this is EXACTLY what is prescribed for hypertrophy. Then drop or superset to get your fun pump without focusing your entire routine on the pump. The option to simply do 2 sets of 20 (that I listed in the example) is to save time as a weight this light won't require multiple warm up sets and we don't always have 70 or 80 minutes to dedicate to lifting.

    Exercise pairings:

    1) Compound moves break down the most fibers, require the most energy, and cause the largest boost in natural hormone response. All of these reasons make them the backbone of this plan as your initial lifts.

    I've also found that ANY muscle group that I pair up with squats and deadlifts will grow, even if it has an unrelated function. For example, I frequently follow squats with a shoulder routine.

    2) I personally like to split up quads and hams because of reason #1. It allows for an "extra" day to begin with a compound move, rather than doing a typical leg routine. In a typical leg routine, you miss out on the opportunity to give a boost to a lagging smaller muscle group.

    3) Note that you have at least 2 days of rest before working the same muscle as a primary OR secondary mover. For example, while squats are performed on monday, hams are a secondary muscle. Hams are not worked again until Friday to ensure maximum ability and recovery.

    *souces:
    -3 or 4 college anatomy courses and 2 kinesiology courses
    -muscle testing theory by Kendall
    -Muscle and Fitness: IMO an excellent theoretical source for building routines although you do have to sift through a lot of BS in the mean time
    -Franco Columbo book of bodybuilding that I read as a kid in the 80s
    -P/RR/S articles from the Iron Man Mag website
    -Arnold interviews and articles: the man was just the best not to mention that his quotes are entertaining... "no better feeling than a simultaneous pump"
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    Quote Originally Posted by celc5 View Post
    Ha ha... that was my "I got i a hurry" abbreviations

    SS = superset with
    Neutral grip = palms in (easy on the rotator cuff and less tension on the pec tendon)
    DB press = no translation required
    slight incline = use an adjustable bench and set on the steepest incline setting that is less than 90 degrees (usually 65 or 70ish) (same reasoning as the neutral grip)

    Theory:

    Exercise choice:

    Most major muscle groups are trained in at LEAST 2 angles. I originally read this concept in an interview with Arnold but solidified the concept in anatomy and kinesiology classes. This is the most important concept that you can learn when designing a routine IMO.

    For example, focus of bis, tris, quads, hams, and calves is varied by muscle length across 2 joints.

    Focus of pec is USUALLY by particular fibers addressed. Although you are avoiding upper fiber specific exercises which MAY compromise your injury. Note that in this case, most fibers FIRE across all angles... just to varying degrees of which ones take the brunt of the load.

    In some routines, it's also an option to treat lats and rhomboids/interscapulars as 2 seperate muscle groups. I frequently do this for upper and lower abs well. Although it's difficult to isolate these exercises, it is possible to sway the brunt of force to particular fibers IMO.

    Rep schemes:

    1) 5x5 is tried and true for power. The same goes for 8-12 reps for growth. There is no need to try to alter what works, but adding to and modifying these concepts can be what pushes us to the next level.

    2) P/RR/S concepts are some of the best THEORY that I've read, especially when trying to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time (like we all want to do on cycle). Problem is, doing a power week only once every 3 weeks neglects that power moves are in a large part a skill. They require "practice" by the muscle groups and neurologic systems to make progress. You've seen many times on powerlifting forums where successful competitors will deadlift 2-3 times per week. Sounds insane but it works for them because of the skill aspect to lifting heavy.

    Remedy this problem by incorporating power moves right into your hypertrophy routine.

    Also, this routine gives you the opportunity to incorporate P/RR/S tempo concepts, if you are mentally able to keep up with the changes within one routine. This helps to force firing of type I, IIa, and IIb fibers types.

    3) It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that you need to do either high reps or a shock technique to get a pump. Bodybuilding should be a FUN hobby/lifestyle and the pump is certainly one of the most fun aspects of lifting. Contrary to most die hard sources, I believe the pump has its place in our routines, even if it only serves as a mood enhancer, ego booster, and confidence builder.

    In order to efficiently incorporate the pump into your routine, try drop sets. For example, perform 8-12 reps to failure of a specific exercise as this is EXACTLY what is prescribed for hypertrophy. Then drop or superset to get your fun pump without focusing your entire routine on the pump. The option to simply do 2 sets of 20 (that I listed in the example) is to save time as a weight this light won't require multiple warm up sets and we don't always have 70 or 80 to dedicate to lifting.

    Exercise pairings:

    1) Compound moves break down the most fibers, require the most energy, and cause the largest boost in natural hormone response. All of these reasons make them the backbone of this plan as your initial lifts.

    I've also found that ANY muscle group that I pair up with squats and deadlifts will grow, even if it has an unrelated function. For example, I frequently follow squats with a shoulder routine.

    2) I personally like to split up quads and hams because of reason #1. It allows for an "extra" day to begin with a compound move, rather than doing a typical leg routine. In a typical leg routine, you miss out on the opportunity to give a boost to a lagging smaller muscle group.

    3) Note that you have at least 2 days of rest before working the same muscle as a primary OR secondary mover. For example, while squats are performed on monday, hams are a secondary muscle. Hams are not worked again until Friday to ensure maximum ability and recovery.

    *souces:
    -3 or 4 college anatomy courses and 2 kinesiology courses
    -muscle testing theory by Kendall
    -Muscle and Fitness: IMO an excellent theoretical source for building routines although you do have to sift through a lot of BS in the mean time
    -Franco Columbo book of bodybuilding that I read as a kid in the 80s
    -P/RR/S articles from the Iron Man Mag website
    -Arnold interviews and articles: the man was just the best not to mention that his quotes are entertaining... "no better feeling than a simultaneous pump"


    This is just awesome stuff. I agree with it all! I love to dig deep into the theory thought and I like tweaking and modifying. The outline you prescribed above shows that for Quads we have a compound move (squat 5x5=power) followed by the Pump\hypertrophy moves of 2 sets of 20 or 2 drop sets. Now my question is that, okay we now have the 2 angles....but is that truly enough stimulation for a weeks rest of that muscle group? especially while on gear?? 7 sets for one of the largest most dense muscle group in the body doesnt IMO seem like enough to stimulate maximum strength+growth especially when using anabolics. I may be wrong, and by all means, you are quite the expert in the feild so your input is greatly valued, but im just so framiliar with 12+ sets to just work the quads
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    Good point. I sometimes forget that I spend less time on legs as they are a strong point for me. On that note, you can use the outline as a "backbone"

    Here's some options to increase number of sets, using quads as our example:

    1) Interpret 5x5 as five WORKING sets not including warm-ups. 3 warm up sets takes you to 8 sets for squats alone.

    I personally like to really fry a muscle with the 2 selected lifts so that when I switch my routine, it's a rediculous shock to the fibers to continue to make progress. For example, when you switch to front squats and BB lunges after a month or 2 of this routine, you'll be limping for a few days to keep the quads growing

    2) Another way to look at it, is to STRICTLY follow the description in the previous post of our discussion where you might do the following:

    Squats 5x5
    Lunges 3x 8-12
    Extensions 2x20 or drops

    Lifting is a work in progress. Although a game plan is beneficial, no routine will play out in the gym EXACTLY the way it looks on paper.

    Finally, I have more credibility in exercise selection for your injured pec and less when deciding how many sets you should do These are just some fun ideas for a routine based on semi-credible concepts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by celc5 View Post
    Good point. I sometimes forget that I spend less time on legs as they are a strong point for me. On that note, you can use the outline as a "backbone"

    Here's some options to increase number of sets, using quads as our example:

    1) Interpret 5x5 as five WORKING sets not including warm-ups. 3 warm up sets takes you to 8 sets for squats alone.

    I personally like to really fry a muscle with the 2 selected lifts so that when I switch my routine, it's a rediculous shock to the fibers to continue to make progress. For example, when you switch to front squats and BB lunges after a month or 2 of this routine, you'll be limping for a few days to keep the quads growing

    2) Another way to look at it, is to STRICTLY follow the description in the previous post of our discussion where you might do the following:

    Squats 5x5
    Lunges 3x 8-12
    Extensions 2x20 or drops

    Lifting is a work in progress. Although a game plan is beneficial, no routine will play out in the gym EXACTLY the way it looks on paper.

    Finally, I have more credibility in exercise selection for your injured pec and less when deciding how many sets you should do These are just some fun ideas for a routine based on semi-credible concepts.
    Yea i understand (about your last phrase). So basically you just agree with adding the lunges for hypertrophy rep range and the extensions for the burnout\pump etc. And the routine can be modified like that form then out. Also i like the 2 angles at a time approach to keep the body responding. When using gear, you can just keep adding a few sets per exercise on until the muscle is thoroughly exhausted and ready for the increased recovery rate I suppose...

    I have another question for ya. Alot of top guys and guys on gear find training twice a day beneficial. I personally dont see it fit for someone with a normal daily life outside of bodybuilding. on the same token, with regard to longer\harder\heavier single workout sessions I've heard that you wont get as much out of the cycle if you dont push it even harder, meaning heavier weight and more sets....so even doing 10 sets for Quads or Back seems like still cutting it short.

    I guess its like you said. No workout routine is clean cut on paper, one must just see what they respond do. My concern is wasting time while ON by "playing around" and comparing the gains with more sets vs with fewer sets. This is why i was trying to see what the general consensus was from people who have been using for a while and have already made this comparison...

    dont get me wrong. I agree with these theories in full and will apply them to my routines from now on, but its simply a factor of determining a set range per muscle group that troubles me. I know its not an exact science and everyone is different, but to hear what many have had success with would be reassuring.
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    Re the twice per day routine, I've never had the luxury of being able to do that. IF you're able to do that, this split would be INCREDIBLE. You could probably almost double the number of sets per exercise if you were willing spend about 45 or 55 minutes per sesssion.

    Unfortunately for the sake of your question, I have never pinned. But over the past two summers, I have run some rediculously high intensity high volume routines with staples, stims, and "natural" stacks. For the sake of this discussion, it would be a routine that is comparable to the split we have outlined but with supersetting or dropping on EVERY SINGLE set.

    My body could handle it for about 3 weeks and then I would run a "straight set" routine for 1 week to allow my body to catch up. Then I'd go back to the volume. In other words, go balls out while "on" and then back off for a few days when you know your body is crying mercy.

    As far as overtraining, I'm just finishing up a light halo/formestane prohormone cycle and I DEFINATELY overtrained the whole way through. Honestly, I doubt that the overtraining diminished gains but rather just made me a cranky a-hole at work. If I were pinning, I'd work out till I passed out ...of course take that with a grain of salt

    Excellent chalk talk my friend
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    Quote Originally Posted by celc5 View Post
    Re the twice per day routine, I've never had the luxury of being able to do that. IF you're able to do that, this split would be INCREDIBLE. You could probably almost double the number of sets per exercise if you were willing spend about 45 or 55 minutes per sesssion.

    Unfortunately for the sake of your question, I have never pinned. But over the past two summers, I have run some rediculously high intensity high volume routines with staples, stims, and "natural" stacks. For the sake of this discussion, it would be a routine that is comparable to the split we have outlined but with supersetting or dropping on EVERY SINGLE set.

    My body could handle it for about 3 weeks and then I would run a "straight set" routine for 1 week to allow my body to catch up. Then I'd go back to the volume. In other words, go balls out while "on" and then back off for a few days when you know your body is crying mercy.

    As far as overtraining, I'm just finishing up a light halo/formestane prohormone cycle and I DEFINATELY overtrained the whole way through. Honestly, I doubt that the overtraining diminished gains but rather just made me a cranking a-hole at work. If I were pinning, I'd work out till I passed out ...of course take that with a grain of salt

    Excellent chalk talk my friend
    Yea i really enjoy talking about the science behind everything. Anyway. You were saying that it would be incredible if one could afford two 45 minute sessions daily, and that he\she could almost perform twice the amount of sets. How would this split pan out then? im not sure if i would know how to make the split you wrote above into a 2-a-day routine without your input. (just food for thought of course, I doubt ill have time to do such a routine).

    Also, I did a PH cycle a little while back and trained balls to the wall. I think i borderline over trained but as you noticed I didn't notice it diminish my gains at all. The concern I had about twice a day training is the fact that it can either be INCREDIBLE or if over done it can lead to very very catabolic over training.


    Either way, all that aside, I feel it would be nice if some ppl chimed in about how many sets per muscle group they had the most success with while using gear.
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    hey celc:

    Ive been trying out the routine and I LOVE IT. the concept is amazing. I work hard with the compounds and then get the biggest pump ever at teh end. I added some "advancifications" if you will and a few more sets\movements. Also I wrote it up again leaving it open for modification and expansion upon variable such as increased recovery from steroids being present. Check it out::

    Monday: (Chest and Long Tris.)
    Chest:
    • Bench Press (5 x 5)
    • DB press (3-5 x 8-12)
    • Cable crossover\flye etc (3-5 x drop\15-20)
    Triceps (long):
    • Flat Skull Crushers (5x5)
    • DB overhead press (2-3 x 15-20)
    o AND\OR
    • Long tri exercise of choice (2-3 x 8-12)

    Tuesday: (Hams and Long Bi)
    Hams:
    • SLDL (5x5)
    • Hamstring curls standing\seated (3-5 x 8-12)
    • Hamstring curls standing seated[other] (3-5 x drop\15-20
    Long Bis:
    • BB curls (5x5)
    • Incline DB curls (2-3 x 15-20)
    o AND\OR
    • Long Bi exercise of choice (2-3 x 8-12)

    Wednesday: (rest)
    Cardio


    Thursday: (Shoulders and Traps)
    Shoulders+Traps:
    • Shrugs (5x5) SS\w\ posterior delt laterals to failure
    • Standing upright rows (5x5 OR 3-5 x 8-12)
    • Lateral Raises (3-5 x 8-12 SS\w\ neutral grip DB press slight incline (8-12)

    Friday: (Quads and Short Tris)
    Quads:
    • Squats (5x5)
    • Lunge or exercise of choice (3-5 x 8-12)
    • Leg extensions (3-5 x 15-20)
    Short Tris:
    • Decline Skull crushers (5x5)
    • Cable pushdowns (2-3 x 8-12)
    o AND\OR
    • Short tri exercise of choice (2-3 x 15-20)



    Saturday: (Back and short bis)
    Back:
    • BB row (5x5)
    • Single arm or seated row (3-5 x 8-12)
    • (Weighted) pull-up\chin-up (3-5 x 15-20)
    Short Bis:
    • EZ preacher Curl (5x5)
    • Standing cable curl (2-3 x 8-12)
    o AND\OR
    • DB standing curls or exercise of choice (2-3 x 15-20)

    Sunday: (rest)
    Cardio


    QUESITIONS:

    now the way you designed it was to attack the bis and tris twice a week each from a different angle each time (long and short) for future modification on my end, can you make a list of exercises for biceps and triceps differenciating between long and short exercises (i assume you mean long heads and short heads).

    Also if one were to incorporate this technique into working a different muscle group twice a week how would it look? this way if ever a larger muscle group is lagging i can just see how a routine with emphasis on a larger muscle would look. Lets say you use chest and\or shoulders for an example..

    thanks celc.
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    pudzian2, looks like you "get it" Your enthusiastic report tells me you're having fun with this... fun is a frequently missing ingredient in our sport my friend.

    Good question about muscle lengths. It's actually a physics concept but let's make it simple for the purpose of designing routines.

    Watered down muscle physio 101: Muscles are able to contract the strongest at their optimum length. It's usually at this length that the most number of fibers will contract as well. The muscle will contract less efficiently if it is in a stretched or slack position. In these disadvantaged positions, some groups of fibers will contract to a greater extent, while others will contract less efficiently.

    The goal of the short vs. long split is not to attack muscles in a completely disadvantaged position at the maximum stretched point or overly slack position. The goal is to slightly move TOWARDS those points in relation to the OPTIMUM length.

    *A "cheat" way to envision this concept with bis and tris is to look at elbow position.

    Biceps:
    Optimum length: elbow at side or slightly behind the plane of the body
    Short biceps: the elbow is in front of the body (slight slack)
    Long biceps: the eblow is behind the plane of the body

    Triceps:
    Optimum length: somewhere just slightly in front of the body (IMO the decline bench creates this angle)
    Short Tris: elbow at side or behind the body
    Long Tris: elbow at 90 degrees or anywhere above shoulder level

    So you can insert ANY biceps or triceps exercise into optimum, short, or long groups.

    This is advancifying your celcaliscious philosophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by celc5 View Post
    pudzian2, looks like you "get it" Your enthusiastic report tells me you're having fun with this... fun is a frequently missing ingredient in our sport my friend.

    Good question about muscle lengths. It's actually a physics concept but let's make it simple for the purpose of designing routines.

    Watered down muscle physio 101: Muscles are able to contract the strongest at their optimum length. It's usually at this length that the most number of fibers will contract as well. The muscle will contract less efficiently if it is in a stretched or slack position. In these disadvantaged positions, some groups of fibers will contract to a greater extent, while others will contract less efficiently.

    The goal of the short vs. long split is not to attack muscles in a completely disadvantaged position at the maximum stretched point or overly slack position. The goal is to slightly move TOWARDS those points in relation to the OPTIMUM length.

    *A "cheat" way to envision this concept with bis and tris is to look at elbow position.

    Biceps:
    Optimum length: elbow at side or slightly behind the plane of the body
    Short biceps: the elbow is in front of the body (slight slack)
    Long biceps: the eblow is behind the plane of the body

    Triceps:
    Optimum length: somewhere just slightly in front of the body (IMO the decline bench creates this angle)
    Short Tris: elbow at side or behind the body
    Long Tris: elbow at 90 degrees or anywhere above shoulder level

    So you can insert ANY biceps or triceps exercise into optimum, short, or long groups.

    This is advancifying your celcaliscious philosophy
    Awesome man!.. i really do think this is the absolute most efficient and intelligent way to train and achieve the best of all goals. (at least its proving to be for me). Also. I would just like to see, if you have time of course, a split like the one i posted but with extra emphasis on say chest or shoulders. It seems like since bis and tris are small they are easy to incorporate 2x\week. Im just curious to see how it would look with the emphasis on a larger muscle group. Thanks much celc.
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    this is a great thread!! I'm going to run this on my next cycle since i'm recovering from a torn acl now. bigtime props celc
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    i''d like to see your routine incorporating the upper and lower chest exercises, and training the lat and mid back on diff days.
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    2 requests for chest so here's the brief jist of it:

    Upper Chest
    Incline Bench (5x5)
    Flat Bench (3-5x 8-12)
    Low Pulley CCO (2-3x reps/drops)

    Lower Chest, Tris
    Decline Bench (5x5)
    Flat CGBP (3-5x 8-12)
    High Pulley CCO (2-3x reps/drops)

    Upper chest splits well with front delts and middle delts. Lower chest splits well with tris. Be sure at least 2 days rest before hitting the same group again (ie Monday, Friday)

    Edit: From a biomechanical standpoint, conerning your pec injury, do NOT allow your elbows to go below the plane of your body on the eccentric during presses. Going too deep is a VERY disadvantaged position for your pec, and could very well lead to shoulder issues while compensating for the lagging pec.
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    Quote Originally Posted by celc5 View Post
    2 requests for chest so here's the brief jist of it:

    Upper Chest
    Incline Bench (5x5)
    Flat Bench (3-5x 8-12)
    Low Pulley CCO (2-3x reps/drops)

    Lower Chest, Tris
    Decline Bench (5x5)
    Flat CGBP (3-5x 8-12)
    High Pulley CCO (2-3x reps/drops)

    Upper chest splits well with front delts and middle delts. Lower chest splits well with tris. Be sure at least 2 days rest before hitting the same group again (ie Monday, Friday)

    Edit: From a biomechanical standpoint, conerning your pec injury, do NOT allow your elbows to go below the plane of your body on the eccentric during presses. Going too deep is a VERY disadvantaged position for your pec, and could very well lead to shoulder issues while compensating for the lagging pec.

    thats a very good point about the elbows. thanks there. just one quick ? what does CGBP stand for..... lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    thats a very good point about the elbows. thanks there. just one quick ? what does CGBP stand for..... lol
    CGBP = Close Grip Bench Press
    *trick- follow CGBP with a superset of standard flat DB BP and you'll love the pump

    Hey Pudz, that upper/lower split make sense to ya?
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    Are you saying you can isolate upper and lower chest?

    This is a good thread, but the volume may be way to high for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CryingEmo View Post
    Are you saying you can isolate upper and lower chest?

    This is a good thread, but the volume may be way to high for me.
    Nope. But, proportionally, the ratio of upper vs. lower fibers can be manipulated. See post#24 where I say "watered down muscle physio." Think of it this way, you can't isolate quads in a squat. But you can increase the quad workload by narrowing your stance. Same concept applies to just about every compound movement in terms of emphasizing particular muscle groups.

    See post #15 for more reasonable volume. This routine takes me about 70 minutes per session
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    Quote Originally Posted by celc5 View Post
    CGBP = Close Grip Bench Press
    *trick- follow CGBP with a superset of standard flat DB BP and you'll love the pump

    Hey Pudz, that upper/lower split make sense to ya?
    yea man it looks awesome. this type of training relaly does feel great. no one should comment unless they try it. you can FEEL it working the best of both worlds.
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    What does P/RR/S stand for?
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    power/rep range/shock

    There are 2 articles concerning this training methodology on the Iron Man Magazine website.
    Last edited by celc5; 08-27-2007 at 10:39 PM. Reason: spelling
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