[PumpingIron]

No I am. I'll put my wheels up against most too, I'll direct you towards a few pics if need be.

But you are not hearing all of what I am saying. I hit them with one exercise, after every workout.

Focusing only on abs for a full day is stupid in my book, but hitting them daily works just fine.

[PumpingIron]

Oh and you can work calves every day as well.

[BigVrunga]

why? You said yourself you hit it indirectly everyday. What's the point of working them 5 times a week? Are they getting bigger or better? My guess is if you lost 1% of bf you'd think they were 1000xs better than what they are now and you can do that without working abs at all.

like some one said before they are muscle tissue, so train them like any other muscle. What other muscle do you work directly 5 times a week'?

Calves.

Focusing only on abs for a full day is stupid in my book, but hitting them daily works just fine.

Agreed - I dont think I could devote a full workout to ab training but 5-10 min 4-5 days a week works really well for me.

Bodyfat is definitely key in ab definition but it doesnt mean you should ignore ab training. For one thing, consistent traing and doing vacuums whenever you think of it makes you just look better when you're standing at rest, keeps your midsection tight.

BV

[PumpingIron]

Originally Posted by jlowsho

why? You said yourself you hit it indirectly everyday. What's the point of working them 5 times a week? Are they getting bigger or better? My guess is if you lost 1% of bf you'd think they were 1000xs better than what they are now and you can do that without working abs at all.

like some one said before they are muscle tissue, so train them like any other muscle. What other muscle do you work directly 5 times a week'?

I missed this one. But a lot of waht I do in the gym is driven by my diet and lack of cardio. Meaning I don't do cardio and have a great diet. So, training a small muscle group ED works for me, to maintain that low BF and make them extrememly visible.

I don't think dropping 1% BF will make that much of a difference, as I normally flucate between 7% and 10% and now what a difference in BF will do. I see that building the muscle the way I do it works for me and over time my abs get taller and taller. I never said it was the way everyone should do it.

[jlowsho]

Originally Posted by PumpingIron

I missed this one. But a lot of waht I do in the gym is driven by my diet and lack of cardio. Meaning I don't do cardio and have a great diet. So, training a small muscle group ED works for me, to maintain that low BF and make them extrememly visible.

I don't think dropping 1% BF will make that much of a difference, as I normally flucate between 7% and 10% and now what a difference in BF will do. I see that building the muscle the way I do it works for me and over time my abs get taller and taller. I never said it was the way everyone should do it.

Well I'm glad you added this in here. Because your results are built soley on anecdotle evidence and none on science. Try to reproduce your results with an untrained individual. My opinions aren't opinions at all, but what works and what science says works.

If your abs really got taller and taller all the time I'm sure you would put most IFBB pros to shame. If you got down to 5% bf you would be amazed at your abs. Working a muscle group with one exercise a day isn't going to do anything after your muscles adapt to the stress you sease to grow. This is science and can't be argued.

Muscle also has to recover. Your not A. introducing any new stress and B. Aren't giving it time to recover. I agree abs and calves can be worked more frequently, but it goes beyond common sense OR ESPECIALLY science to say that you can work a muscle group every day and contantly grow.

This logic is flawed to say the least. People some times see good results DESPITE what they do. Just because it works for you - goodie. But it proves more that you have good genetics than anything or you know how to cycle your steriods better than most pro's do.

[jlowsho]

I think you proved my point more than you intended to also by stating you don't do cardio because your diet is so good. I'm the same way, but just because we dip toward the ectomorphic sectrum and have good will power doesn't mean that what we are doing is ideal. It just means we know our bodys well enough to know how to get a certain result.

What I do and what I say to do are two different things some times. I hate to do cardio and usually don't unless contest preping, but do I tell my clients to do it? Asolutely. Why? Because that's the way normal people work. Just because I usually don't doesn't mean I SHOULD recommend it to every one.

[jlowsho]

I guess my point is that - instead of saying "this is the way it is, and this is what's gonna work." a more correct way to put your anecdotel high jinx should be "this is what worked for me, here's a few ideas for you to try."

[PumpingIron]

I completely understand what you are saying. And I believe that you are thoroughly correct. But I am intruducing new stress as the rep scheme, amount and the actual exercise is changed every day. I am giving it time to rest as 2 days are taken off every week.

I never disagreed that dropping BF will make them pop out more. That is a universal truth, so I don't know why you keep saying this...

But I used to train the way you stated and I see better result like this. So yes I am basing it off of experience, as well as science. I am not saying this is the only way...I don't see why you are arguing...I feel like I am defending myself here, when I don't see why I should be.

[PumpingIron]

Originally Posted by jlowsho

I guess my point is that - instead of saying "this is the way it is, and this is what's gonna work." a more correct way to put your anecdotel high jinx should be "this is what worked for me, here's a few ideas for you to try."

If thats not what I said, my apologies, becuase it is what I meant, sans the smart ass attitude.

[PumpingIron]

Originally Posted by jlowsho

I think you proved my point more than you intended to also by stating you don't do cardio because your diet is so good. I'm the same way, but just because we dip toward the ectomorphic sectrum and have good will power doesn't mean that what we are doing is ideal. It just means we know our bodys well enough to know how to get a certain result.

What I do and what I say to do are two different things some times. I hate to do cardio and usually don't unless contest preping, but do I tell my clients to do it? Asolutely. Why? Because that's the way normal people work. Just because I usually don't doesn't mean I SHOULD recommend it to every one.

And you made a very valid point here, without knowing it. Everyone is different and will respond differently. Whether it be training, diet, supplementation, rest, etc.

Should people only train abs the way I do...no

Should they only do it your way...no

They should figure out what works best for them.

[jlowsho]

Well I apologize as well if I came off as attacking you personally that certainly was not my intention at all.

[jlowsho]

Originally Posted by PumpingIron

And you made a very valid point here, without knowing it. Everyone is different and will respond differently. Whether it be training, diet, supplementation, rest, etc.

Should people only train abs the way I do...no

Should they only do it your way...no

They should figure out what works best for them.

i agree... but being a trainer and a competitor I guess I have a biased opinion on what works and what doesn't simply becuase I've taken normal people and made them into successful figure or bb competitors as well.

I think for that reason I may have had an uncalled for ego in entering this topic

[PumpingIron]

Well, I have taken myself to what I believe is a good physique that will do very well when I step on stage next year. Which is most likely where my ego comes from.

I see you just joined...you should definitely stick around bro, it's good to have people like you around here.

[jlowsho]

I try to make it over here from time to time. I find it hard some times finding things that interest me enough to post on. What Association are you doing your competition through? (thanks for the welcome btw, after a heated discussion even)

[PumpingIron]

I enjoyed it...It's what open forums should be like.

And I enjoy all facits of this board, from diet to training to A A S, to other supplementation, so it's not too hard for me to find things to discuss...plus it's always great to find someone who knows what they are talking about.

But I'm going to compete NPC.

[jlowsho]

good stuff. I hope you have a better experience with them than some do. They are very beaurocratic at times. Depending on who the promotor/judges are.

[PumpingIron]

Yea, politics does play a role with them. I'm hoping to be just so good that there is no way they can screw up the placings...