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Sore Knees

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    Sore Knees


    Hey guys, (gals)...I'm tall...6'5 and am havin some bad pain in my knees from squats....Been goin rather heavy and intense....I am allergic to asprin/ibeuprophen, so unless an alternate anti-inflammatory is available, i'm outta luck there....

    I have never wrapped my knees, and I use 10lb plates under my heels to keep the stress off my low back/hip flexors....

    My knees are hurtin bad enough to merit discontinuining the exercise, but I dont want to....

    any advice appreciated....

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    Quote Originally Posted by christopher
    I have never wrapped my knees, and I use 10lb plates under my heels to keep the stress off my low back/hip flexors....

    that's the reason right there, take the plates out and squat right, most likely your heels are up and you're squatting with a close stance, with that being said i'm assuming your knees are going out past your toes which is causing extra strain on your knees. anyone that told you to put plates under your heels should be shot
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    Quote Originally Posted by guyfromkop2
    that's the reason right there, take the plates out and squat right, most likely your heels are up and you're squatting with a close stance, with that being said i'm assuming your knees are going out past your toes which is causing extra strain on your knees. anyone that told you to put plates under your heels should be shot

    Damn, excution....?

    I am using a wide stance...I forgot to add that I was doin lunges also and have already discontinued them....I was careful to keep my knees behind in the motion (lunges)....

    For my squats, I use the smith machine and make it a point to have my feet forward and lean back into the exercise...do ya still think its the same cause (the plates)??
    Thankx
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    it's the plates and smith machine. get under a real bar and throw the plates away, what kind of shoes do you squat in?
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    Christopher,
    Without actually seeing your technique it is difficult to assess. Guy is right, though, ditch the plates under your heels. That will make your calves tight and lead to more problems. By any chance, do you have fallen/weak arches?

    Here's a couple things to try next time you squat:
    1. Ditch the plates and smith machine.
    2. Stretch your calves out daily (both knee straight and knee bent).
    3. Make sure your knees stay behind your toes.
    4. Try to slightly supinate you feet (roll to the outside of your foot) and see if that makes any difference.
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    Quote Originally Posted by guyfromkop2
    it's the plates and smith machine. get under a real bar and throw the plates away, what kind of shoes do you squat in?

    I have no choice but to use the smith machine...I ve had a few shoulder surgeries, so ....well thats explanation in itself....

    I also had a broken leg and my one leg is shorter than the other by 1 1/2".....I squat in tennis shoes....with an insert in the right show to make up some of the discrepency....

    I was having some extreme low back pain, so my chiropractor suggested the plates to take the stress off my low back/hip flexors....Plus, i was using some ab exercises that targeted hip flexors.....

    The smith isnt a "real" bar..., I know, but its what I can do now after my surgeries...
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    Quote Originally Posted by TarHeelTrainer
    Christopher,
    Without actually seeing your technique it is difficult to assess. Guy is right, though, ditch the plates under your heels. That will make your calves tight and lead to more problems. By any chance, do you have fallen/weak arches?


    Here's a couple things to try next time you squat:
    1. Ditch the plates and smith machine.
    2. Stretch your calves out daily (both knee straight and knee bent).
    3. Make sure your knees stay behind your toes.
    4. Try to slightly supinate you feet (roll to the outside of your foot) and see if that makes any difference.
    Always have had trouble with my heels/feet...In high school. I could barely run after a while because of it...
    Thankx for the advice....
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    Christopher,
    That is what I suspected. Everyone just assumes that back problems are caused by your back and knee problems are caused by your knees. Often times its when other joints are out of whack that compensation injuries occur. Do yourself a HUGE favor and find a podiatrist and have him make you athletic orthotics. They might hurt in the beginning but you'll be much happier and healthier in the long run.

    I will never say a doctor (or chiropractor, in this case) is wrong, but you may want to find one who understands exercise a little better. Plates under your heels like that will just make your situation worse. Now your calves are tighter AND stronger putting even more stress on your knees.

    If you do have shoulder problems with squats then try different techniques (zercher, front, sumo) to see if any are easier on the shoulder.

    Stretch your calves and use a foam roller and get some orthotics and you should be hitting the weights hard again soon. Give CissusRx by USPLabs a shot if you haven't already. Many people, including myself, have experienced great pain relief from this product. Good luck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TarHeelTrainer
    Christopher,
    That is what I suspected. Everyone just assumes that back problems are caused by your back and knee problems are caused by your knees. Often times its when other joints are out of whack that compensation injuries occur. Do yourself a HUGE favor and find a podiatrist and have him make you athletic orthotics. They might hurt in the beginning but you'll be much happier and healthier in the long run.

    I will never say a doctor (or chiropractor, in this case) is wrong, but you may want to find one who understands exercise a little better. Plates under your heels like that will just make your situation worse. Now your calves are tighter AND stronger putting even more stress on your knees.

    If you do have shoulder problems with squats then try different techniques (zercher, front, sumo) to see if any are easier on the shoulder.

    Stretch your calves and use a foam roller and get some orthotics and you should be hitting the weights hard again soon. Give CissusRx by USPLabs a shot if you haven't already. Many people, including myself, have experienced great pain relief from this product. Good luck.

    thankx for the reply....good stuff there...

    I do have orthotics, yet I only wear the right one due to me leg lenght discrepency....I can bring myself to wear an orthotic shoe...I need an inch on the right sole.....It looks awful....

    I assume CissusRX is an anti-inflammatory...I'll google it to find out...

    Again, thankx for the advice....
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    I forgot to ask, should I be wrappin my knees...? or does this just make them "dependent" on the extra support and essentially weaker...?

    Thankx
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    Quote Originally Posted by christopher
    I forgot to ask, should I be wrappin my knees...? or does this just make them "dependent" on the extra support and essentially weaker...?

    Thankx
    wrap em, and if you dont want the extra lbs otu of the wraps, get yourself a pair of rehband knee sleeves
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    Quote Originally Posted by guyfromkop2
    wrap em, and if you dont want the extra lbs otu of the wraps, get yourself a pair of rehband knee sleeves

    Thankx man...I checked out the sleeves....curious though, which one is more effective, the sleeves or the wraps...?

    And does it matter what kind of wraps...?
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    Quote Originally Posted by christopher
    Thankx man...I checked out the sleeves....curious though, which one is more effective, the sleeves or the wraps...?

    And does it matter what kind of wraps...?

    or is this product better...?

    The Lift Patellar Tendon Sleeve at AllegroMedical.com

    I dont know how to make a link live in here....

    EDIT: ok ,yes I do...
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    Flip through the phone book and find a shoe store that will customize shoes for you. In my area, we have Fleet Feet, New Balance, etc. They will do a full gait and postural analysis and build a shoe to fit your foot. A friend of mine has the exact same problem as you are describing and he got New Balance to fit him (his left leg is an 3/4 inch shorter). His shoes look right off the shelf and you'd never know the difference. They also cost about the same as a regular pair of upper-end NB shoes too (~$180) but he said its worth every penny.

    Cissus is much more than just the run-of-the-mill anti-inflamatory. You'll find lots of discussions about it all over this site. Many people have logged their experiences with it and most report good results. They have halted production on it due to reformulation so many stocked up so it might be a little more challenging to find on the web. Just google or froogle it and you should find some.

    As for knee wraps, I'm not a huge fan but when it come right down to it its either no squats or wraps. Do what keeps you squatting. Do light weights without wraps then wrap up for big lifts. Hopefully, if you can get the feet/leg thing straightened out you wont have knee problems anymore and wont need the wraps. Don't forget to stretch out your calves daily!
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    get the sleeves, i've never heard of those other ones you linked too. go with rehband. they are expensive but worth it, i have a pair and they're great, any knee pain i used to have is gone. knee wraps are good, but you really have to sit back into the squat in order for you to hit depth and they are more for competing. just measure your knee and order the size below whatever your knee diameter is. you'll get good compression and they will keep your knees warm and pain free.
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    and i forgot to add, unless you're squatting over 400lbs no need for wraps
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    At 6'5", do you also have Osgood-Schlatter's Disease and forgot to mention it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by TarHeelTrainer
    At 6'5", do you also have Osgood-Schlatter's Disease and forgot to mention it?

    dont know what that is...I'll have to google it....
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    Quote Originally Posted by christopher
    dont know what that is...I'll have to google it....

    says its for teenagers....I'm 37....dont have many of those symptoms .....
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    Quote Originally Posted by guyfromkop2
    get the sleeves, i've never heard of those other ones you linked too. go with rehband. they are expensive but worth it, i have a pair and they're great, any knee pain i used to have is gone. knee wraps are good, but you really have to sit back into the squat in order for you to hit depth and they are more for competing. just measure your knee and order the size below whatever your knee diameter is. you'll get good compression and they will keep your knees warm and pain free.

    OK, I'll give them a try...thankx for the advice....
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    [QUOTE=TarHeelTrainer]Flip through the phone book and find a shoe store that will customize shoes for you. In my area, we have Fleet Feet, New Balance, etc. They will do a full gait and postural analysis and build a shoe to fit your foot. A friend of mine has the exact same problem as you are describing and he got New Balance to fit him (his left leg is an 3/4 inch shorter). His shoes look right off the shelf and you'd never know the difference. They also cost about the same as a regular pair of upper-end NB shoes too (~$180) but he said its worth every penny.

    If you could get me a number to a place that is doing that, I'd be very grateful....I though of designing a pair myself, or a concept, and pitching it to shoe companies...I have a pair that I took to the shoemaker and had an inch added to the sole....looks awful, and also makes my ankle roll easier....


    I had a decent concept in my head of how to build the shoe....the postural analysis, orthotics, leg-lenght all have to tie together (i'm hoping that the orthotics are built custom w/in the shoe...?)

    If I could get a show that fits my needs and looks off the shelf, man, would that make a difference....I went as far as considering the surgery to have one shortened (requires tibia/fibula break and removal of a section) or lenghtening...a 4-6 month process where the bone and muscle/tendon/connective tissue is stretched.....I diodnt do it, and dont see it happenin in the future.....

    I hope that whatr you say your friend has is what I envision...Even if its not local, a contact number would be greatly appreciated...they can link me to a local distributor....

    Thankx again,
    Chris
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    Yeah, if you had Osgood-Schlatter's you would have known. It starts when you're young but for most people never fully heals and many are left with nagging knee pain for the rest of their lives.

    You can find a local New Balance Pedothist by using:
    New Balance

    With your height and activity level, that may be the best option for you. They will have a better selection of different kinds (running, basketball, etc.) and sizes of shoes that should suit you better.

    I have heard of the leg shortening/lengthening procedure...doesn't sounds like much fun to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TarHeelTrainer
    Yeah, if you had Osgood-Schlatter's you would have known. It starts when you're young but for most people never fully heals and many are left with nagging knee pain for the rest of their lives.

    You can find a local New Balance Pedothist by using:
    New Balance

    With your height and activity level, that may be the best option for you. They will have a better selection of different kinds (running, basketball, etc.) and sizes of shoes that should suit you better.

    I have heard of the leg shortening/lengthening procedure...doesn't sounds like much fun to me.

    thankx for the link...what you linked me was Procare Fit Specialists for newbalance.....The first two that I called didnt do Orthotics and also didnt do any of the aforementioned stuff that your friend got...like the postural analysis, custom fit, internal orthotic and a leg lenght discrepency remedy etc....

    Im from PA, and I have yet to find anyone that does what you described....if you can get the direct contact info for the co. that hooked up your friend, i'd greatly appreciate it....If you dont wanna put it here, email me ....

    remember6996@hotmail.com


    thankx for the time and info....

    Chris
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    With regard to the Cissus, It doesnt act like cortizone and mask pain, allowing one to function as nothing is wrong, while making the injury worse, does it...?

    I'm hopin that it doesn't, cause from what I have read, it looks good so far....
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    They wont do orthotics, a podiatrist has to do those.

    I asked my friend again about the shoes. The store he went to was:
    THE SHOE MARKET
    4624 WEST MARKET ST
    GREENSBORO, NC 27407
    Phone: 336-632-1188

    The first time he told me about it he made it sound a lot more hi-tech. The gentleman there at the store did an informal posture/gait assessment then tried out some different shoes to see which fit best. He has different insoles in each shoe and the shorter leg has a small block of post-it notes (crude but effective) to raise up the leg. I never knew that was what he used but he said he cant even tell they're in there. Like I said, they look stock from the outside. His shoes are pretty heavy but he says it helps him from rolling his ankles. I sincerely appologize if I was misleading.

    Perhaps it was just this gentleman but my friend and I both were under the impression that this type of service was common practice for the NB ProCare. They are supposed to custom fit shoes to everyone, especially people with special needs. Perhaps you got unlucky and got the resident retard on the phone. If they are not too far, try swinging by one day and see if someone else might have a better idea. If all else fails, call New Balance directly and see if they can direct you. If I recall correctly both Nike and Adidas used to have similar programs but I haven't heard anything from them in quite a while.

    Cissus will alleviate the pain but it is supposed to actually help strengthen and heal tendons and ligaments. It take a while (as all tendon/ligament injuries) but most users report that it starts to work within 12-15 days. A bottle should run about ~$22 or places like Nutraplanet.com has bulk powder for sale.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TarHeelTrainer
    They wont do orthotics, a podiatrist has to do those.

    I asked my friend again about the shoes. The store he went to was:
    THE SHOE MARKET
    4624 WEST MARKET ST
    GREENSBORO, NC 27407
    Phone: 336-632-1188

    The first time he told me about it he made it sound a lot more hi-tech. The gentleman there at the store did an informal posture/gait assessment then tried out some different shoes to see which fit best. He has different insoles in each shoe and the shorter leg has a small block of post-it notes (crude but effective) to raise up the leg. I never knew that was what he used but he said he cant even tell they're in there. Like I said, they look stock from the outside. His shoes are pretty heavy but he says it helps him from rolling his ankles. I sincerely appologize if I was misleading.

    Perhaps it was just this gentleman but my friend and I both were under the impression that this type of service was common practice for the NB ProCare. They are supposed to custom fit shoes to everyone, especially people with special needs. Perhaps you got unlucky and got the resident retard on the phone. If they are not too far, try swinging by one day and see if someone else might have a better idea. If all else fails, call New Balance directly and see if they can direct you. If I recall correctly both Nike and Adidas used to have similar programs but I haven't heard anything from them in quite a while.

    Cissus will alleviate the pain but it is supposed to actually help strengthen and heal tendons and ligaments. It take a while (as all tendon/ligament injuries) but most users report that it starts to work within 12-15 days. A bottle should run about ~$22 or places like Nutraplanet.com has bulk powder for sale.

    Thankx for the info....I did find a lady that does something similar to what you described, so it's a start...Gotta admit I'm a bit disappointed.....I expected alot more...

    I ordered (3) bottles of the cissus last night from Fit Fuel....also ordered a different product to work in conjunction with the cissus...Astaxanthin,,,its called something different from the Co....

    Again, thankx....
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    I'm 6'4 and have had chronic knee pain since high school. I know most people won't agree with me here but one thing that helped my knees was full range of motion. I had to lower the weight at first but I strengthened up quickly. I squat very deep, well below parralell. I also started warming up with several sets of single leg extensions.


    Another thing you might google is Hindu Squats. They've helped several of the linemen at my old college.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Popa Murph
    I'm 6'4 and have had chronic knee pain since high school. I know most people won't agree with me here but one thing that helped my knees was full range of motion. I had to lower the weight at first but I strengthened up quickly. I squat very deep, well below parralell. I also started warming up with several sets of single leg extensions.


    Another thing you might google is Hindu Squats. They've helped several of the linemen at my old college.
    some of the best advice given right here
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    Quote Originally Posted by guyfromkop2
    some of the best advice given right here

    I watched an online video demonstrating the form....the guy said to use them as a warm-up, but for me, perhaps a replacement until the cissus and some rest help my knees (2 weeks...?)

    You guys still think I should invest in the sleeves..?
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    Quote Originally Posted by christopher
    I watched an online video demonstrating the form....the guy said to use them as a warm-up, but for me, perhaps a replacement until the cissus and some rest help my knees (2 weeks...?)

    You guys still think I should invest in the sleeves..?

    use what as a warm up? ass to grass squats?

    and yes, get the sleeves
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    Quote Originally Posted by guyfromkop2
    use what as a warm up? ass to grass squats?

    and yes, get the sleeves

    the video...

    Hindu Squat: A How To Video | Provided By Sage Advice On Fitness
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    yea they'd be good for warmups, just dont do too many
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    should I take some time off to heal, do light weight, only cardio (treadmill/bike) or.....?

    How long...?
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    when was the last time you took a week off?
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    Quote Originally Posted by guyfromkop2
    when was the last time you took a week off?

    I just started "training" again about 2 mos ago, the 6 mos before that were rehab....
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    take a week off and come back. you'll be fresh and stronger. should take a week off every 8-12 weeks depending on hwo you feel
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    Thankx man....Are you from PA...?
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    Quote Originally Posted by christopher
    Thankx man....Are you from PA...?
    yea, right outside of king of prussia but i train down in glenolden, you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by guyfromkop2
    yea, right outside of king of prussia but i train down in glenolden, you?

    south of Pittsburgh....
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    Forgot to ask....which rehband is the best.....

    open patella or closed...?

    Elastic and Heat Retaining Knee Supports
    Rehband
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