HST gains for heavier lifters
- 09-14-2006, 05:08 PM
HST gains for heavier lifters
Hi everyone. I have been browsing the different training routines and am interested in the gains that I read about from those using HST. I don't mind a loss of strength for a short time if I am going to grow some lean muscle. I would probably use this routine thru the winter months anyway and would go back on a strength training workout during spring. What I was wondering about is the type of gains that the guys weighing over 200 lbs are getting using this style of training. I am about 219-220 right now and been lifting off and on for 17 years. Thanks for the input.
- 09-23-2006, 12:49 PM
it really doesn't matter what size you are. It's the science behind the method. Try it and i garentee that you will not be dissapointed.
- 09-23-2006, 01:13 PM
Originally Posted by mastertech
Design a cycle around the heavier weights, find your maxes, decondition and give it a go.
09-23-2006, 02:24 PM
So. if I am understanding you correctly, I would just skip the 15-10-5 rep series and go with an 8-5-3 in two week time periods? If so, I would think there wouldn't be much of a strength loss then due to the use of heavier weights. Am I correct in this assumption??If you have been training that long then do not do the cookie cutter HST workout, the 15, 10, 5, negatives way of doing it. That's one way of doing it. In essence any periodized form of training that keeps volume relatively constant and that progresses the weight upward 'is' HST. For someone like you using the lite weights probably will not do much. You'd be better off designing a cycle that doesn't have you dropping below 85%of your 8 rep max. For example if you want to use the standard HST layout, just modify it a bit and use your 8, 5, and 3 rep maxes for the main portion of the cycle. There's no need to stay away from the heavy weights. With your level of training they're likey the only ones that will get any significant growth going.
09-25-2006, 08:34 AM
Bingo.Originally Posted by mastertech
09-25-2006, 08:38 AM
i like the 10 8 5 rep. Believe me after a while it is hard on the body... i would start at 75% and work up.. Either way you will like the results and good luck!!
09-25-2006, 09:07 AM
That's not bad at all. I just like keeping things as heavy as possible. I get the best benefit that way, HST or otherwise.Originally Posted by jonesboy
09-25-2006, 06:31 PM
Thats the way I have always lifted also and got the best gains but my body just doesn't recover as fast as it used to. I think I will give this a try as I really respond good to the changeups in workout routines. Thanks guysThat's not bad at all. I just like keeping things as heavy as possible.
09-25-2006, 07:08 PM
Same here on the recovery. Leave two days in between workouts instead of one at the heavier end of things. I do, it makes all the difference.Originally Posted by mastertech
10-02-2006, 08:09 AM
i was reading about the hst workout and decided to incorporate it into my workout somewhat.
yest i did bi and tri. every excersize i did 3 sets of 6 reps. but my last set was as heavy as i could and the wait for the first two sets were about 5 -10 lbs less then eachother.
for example on on cable pull down i did 73- 93- 103
every excersize i did slow and controlled
10-02-2006, 08:28 AM
just make sure you don't goto failure. Progressive load is much more important to muscle growth than always staying close to failure. Unless your on cycle then i like staying about 90% from RM and progressing every workout using a 8 5 5 HST routine cycle. I have made some nice gains that stick with using that routine.
10-02-2006, 09:27 AM
That's not HST. HST is about progressive load over time, across several workouts, so it means deconditioning and then starting light so you can lift heavier almonst every consecutive workout. Load progression within a single workout doesn't achieve the same thing, it's a tool that helps balance workload over time similar to the way many 5x5 programs are set up. HST means the weight used in your second workout is heavier than the weight in the first, the third workout is heavier than the second, and so forth until you hit your x rep max that you set the cycle around.Originally Posted by xtatic
10-02-2006, 12:19 PM
so if my 6 rep max for a certain excersize is 45 i should do say 35 all three sets in week one then go up 5-10 pounds every week????
10-02-2006, 12:44 PM
For lower weighted exercises that is an option. The ultimate goal is to get a significant increase every workout. Say your five rep max for bench is 255, your weight progression for bench would look like this:Originally Posted by xtatic
If someone's bench was lower, or if they didn't want to work with the lighter weights at the begining of the cycle they could do every workout twice, or simply shorten the cycle, or decrease the interval between load increases. Every workout twice would look like this:
The zip file attached to this contains my current workout sheets. Enter weights and increments at the top of each sheet in the white/no fill parts and the sheet figures out a template for you to use. The HST ones make it easy to see how the system is supposed to work.
Last edited by CDB; 10-13-2006 at 02:52 PM.
10-04-2006, 09:46 AM
Originally Posted by CDB
thanks a lot for all your help. i'm currently trying to bulk and gain weight. would this be a good rout for me to take? im currently eating 5k clean cals a day.
10-04-2006, 10:27 AM
In my opinion, when done right nothing compares to a good HST fora bulk or a cut. But 'done right' varies a lot between users. I can tell you what I've had the most success with is doing a shorted cluster HST routine followed by a 5x5. I prefer linear to follow HST. If you check in that sheet there should be a linear 5x5. If you figure out your five rep maxes and plug them into the top of that sheet, and then do the same and plug them into the Cluster HST sheet and use the shortened cycle at the bottom first and flow into the 5x5 right afterward you'll get an approximation of the template I use in that instance. Do what you have to in order to make the exercises correlate. Usually I just keep them consistent through the entire cycle. Once you've got your maxes and decondition for a week or two, you can use that setup which I find very nice.Originally Posted by xtatic
Last edited by CDB; 10-04-2006 at 10:56 AM.
10-04-2006, 11:02 AM
CDB wouldn't it look more like this: if his max on bench was 225 and lets say he is doing a 10 8 5 5 hst routine then on the 10's with a max again of 225 it would be.
200 mon 10 reps x2 sets
your reps doing 8 will be a little heavier say 235 so for 8's
210 mon 8 reps x2 sets
Isn't it important to go no lower than 70 to 75% of your max? Also just for fyi one of the reasons on the HST website that they mention the basic 15 10 5 structure is that they have found that hypertropy works best in a total rep count of 15 to 20 total reps per exercise. Which is why they do a 15 x1 10 x2 and 5 x3 rep
10-04-2006, 12:41 PM
I don't recall seeing that claim on the website. Generally speaking though I've found optimum and tolerable volume to vary a lot between people. The rep scheme and the volume are really irrelevant as you should basically do as much as you can handle without burning out or over training.Originally Posted by jonesboy
The weight progression you used is another way of doing it. Since I favor shorter cycles I always use 5% drop to determine weight progression. I don't have to worry about zig zagging or repeating workouts that way. I was just trying to show real quick what a full cycle's weight progression would look like. Yours is equally valid because what matters is a chronic progression over time. Were he to do a 10,8,5 cycle it probably would look like that.
When they say don't use less than 70-75% of your max that's relative to the rep max. 75% of your 8 rep max if you can bench 240ish by 5 reps is probably somewhere in the 160s or so. There's a lot of room for play there.
10-04-2006, 12:49 PM
10-09-2006, 07:33 PM
Jonesboy or CDB, I have a question for either of you. I am in the process of setting up my my HST workout and have tried to come up with 2 different wokouts to alternate back and forth my workouts with. I know that HST recommends compound lifts but I also know that certain exercises will yield better gains than others. Since you two have experience with this type of training, I was wondering if you could recommend a few of the "better" exercises.
For example, for the past 8 weeks I have used mostly dumbbells for chest but our gym only goes up to 120's in that weight. I know that I would use more weight(flat bench) when I would get near the end of the training cycle. I like the dummbells B/C they do not aggravate my shoulder which sometimes hurts under heavy loads.(not sure why I have no pain w/ dumbbells)
I downloaded your zip file(CDB), but was unable to open it B/C I do not have Excell.
Thanks in advance
10-09-2006, 08:10 PM
Download a program suite called Open Office. It will open Excel formated files into its own spreadsheet program. As for exercise choice I'm a bad source of advice. I stick with compounds exclusively. I don't think I've even done an EZ bar curl in a year. The thing with the dumbbells is if their limited, you're limited. I'd check for a machine that doesn't give you any pain but lets you use the weight you need to. In HST progressive load over time is really the point, and not being able to increase the load kind of nullifies it. To a certain point you could work within a lower weight range and perhaps up the volume, but eventually you're going to have to increase the weight.
How about a dip station, does your gym have one? If you can get those in, and get some weight around your waist too, that's a great chest exercise.
Originally Posted by mastertech
10-10-2006, 10:31 AM
I know what you mean about not enough weight and shoulder problems with the bar. When i ran into that problem i did some heavy reading on the HST website. What i did was started using incline bench instead of flat with dumbells. Here is some ideas with dumbells which i like best also.Originally Posted by mastertech
weighted dips (these work great)
squats alternating with deadlifts
Straight leg dead lifts or bent knee dead lifts
Notice that they really don't recommend bicep or tricep workout because you are hitting it with chins or one of the other workouts..
there is a 5 day workout using the above on mwf and then doing isolation like bi's tri's and additional shoulder workout on Tues/Thurs.
Your tues / thurs workout will be so short that it will make a good cardio day also... I hope this helps.. and good luck
10-10-2006, 04:43 PM
So Jonesboy, you are saying on Tues/Thur. that the bi/tri would be like 2 sets of each isolated and nothing else other than cardio.
Also, am I correct in understanding that you also alternate exercises (ie squats/SLDL)
And yes guys, I do like dips. I do 4 sets of them at the end of my current chest workout. Monday I did 15,then 20,then 15 w/25#attached and lastly 11 w/35#. So I guess I'll really have to throw some weight on. I have to make my own "rig" B/C our gym doesn't have a set up for it.
10-10-2006, 05:46 PM
no alternate deadlifts and squats. SLDL you can do mwf for you hams.. Another interesting workout that i just found today is Max-stim Max-Stimulation :: Index
It uses a lot of the same HST principles but it puts much more focus on muscle fatigue and will increase strength more than the typical hst routine. Although i have never had any issues as far as strength gains using hst.
10-13-2006, 03:05 PM
Here's an updated sheet for anyone who wants it. It's got a version of HST on it that uses the 8,5,3 rep ranges and is followed by a two week Max Stimulation microcycle. Basically you pick your exercises and enter them at the top and they should cascade down through the sheet. Pick a reasonable weight for each, lift until technical failure and enter the number of reps you got done up top. The calculator spits out a number which, for me, ends up being very accurate for my respective rep maxes. Then it lays out the basic template. You choose your % increase in load each workout for each microcycle, enter those in. Then you choose what strength increase over your 1RM you want to shoot for, I usually go for 2.5 to 5 percent. Then you choose a ramp up which is basically just the weight increase % for the MS section. Then you choose how many sets you want each for the first three microcycles. I find 2,3,5 or 2,3,3 works very well. The latter allows for a decreased workload a little past the middle of the cycle which kind of sort of makes it mimic a dual factor template.
Last edited by CDB; 10-21-2006 at 09:29 AM.
10-14-2006, 11:29 AM
CDB, I downloaded your workout sheet(and open office-thanks) and entered in values for bench press and squat just to try it out. I'm not sure if I am doing it right. For example, I entered bench at 315 for 3 reps. I put my % RM increases at 5% for the HST part and 2.5% for max stim and sets per rep range at 2,3,3. Everything made sense till I looked at the max stim part. It says 13 sets at 320 to 345. I assume that this is 13 one rep sets with _ amount of rest between them? If so,then I could see that really tearing you down by the end of it.
10-14-2006, 03:51 PM
At the end you might want to leave an extra day for recovery. I develop these sheets mostly as templates. For something like HST it's very handy, but nothing is set in stone. Towards the end of a cycle like this it wouldn't be unusual for me to leave two/three days between workouts. If I'm going for hypertrophy I just make sure I get two workouts a week. That leaves a lot of wiggle room to recover from what you correctly see as some pretty rough workouts. Check your workload analysis too though, I usually mess with the reps or even the MS ramp up setting to allow for a drop in workload during the 3s or the begining of the MS portion of the cycle. Makes the end a lot easier to deal with. The undulation of workload/absolute load isn't a big deal.Originally Posted by mastertech
10-25-2006, 12:08 PM
Hey guys, I set up my workout using CDB's template and really like how it calculates the different rep maxes. I am 2 workouts into it and had a few questions.
I am doing an 8,5,3 rep scheme on a 2,3,3 set time periods with a 5% weight increase. I am doing squats,deadlifts,DB incline presses,rows,military/behind neck press,weighed dips and biceps curls(isolated).
The question is that with my incline press and weighted dips, I can do more than 8 reps of each (about 12) so I have just been doing the 12 reps with the specified weight and figured I would keep doing the extra reps till I got up to the weights where I can only do 8 or 5 reps depending on where I am at in the program. I didn't know if you guys run into this or not.
I took 9 days off before starting and was still pretty strong when I returned to the gym.
Also, I was thinking of adding in some flat bench after deadlifts or possibly alternating the DB and bench between workouts. My shoulder has really been feeling good possibly due to the low sets. I was wondering if this may be a good idea or not since I still have a ways to go(heavier weights).
10-25-2006, 02:40 PM
As long as the overall weight progression over time is there, you can mess with the other variable to your heart's content. As far as the weights vs reps go, you will by the nature of the system be able to lift for more reps until you get to the max for each microcycle. If you want to do that it's fine. It will just mean a variable workload.
11-02-2006, 06:49 PM
CDB, could I possibly get you to post that zip file one more time or e-mail it to me. I have a panasonic toughbook that I use for work that I would like to put it in but it has no cd drive on it. It would be easier for me to just pull it off the web. Thanks.
By the way, I am 2 weeks in my first HST cycle and already notice the size increase in my legs. Even my wife has noticed.I also have gotten more "cut" in my abs. I must say that so far I am impressed.
11-02-2006, 10:25 PM
It's on a different computer. I'll get a hold of it tomorrow though and send it via email. Go to your profile and set your email, Ill get it from there.Originally Posted by mastertech
11-03-2006, 04:51 AM
I think I put it in but I don't see it under the public profile so I'll just put it here just in case....
11-03-2006, 06:38 AM
here you go.. also using this type of workout you will always be able to do more. Usally during the first week. You will also be tempted to want to add more excersises to your routine. It is tough to make the mental chang e to not do that. When i first started doing hst i was doing flat, incline and dips for chest. Now all i do is incline and i am seeing better gains. I would recommend staying with the rep sheme. i'm doing 5's at the moment and i can do more reps with the weight i am using but i don't. Your body will be effected by the change in reps and the change in weight, even if it is lower that what you were doing the week before. On a side note Max-Stim really is working for me. I am using it on squats, claves, shoulder press and shrugs. On squats my legs feel it for days and are really responding to it.... good luck guys...
11-03-2006, 07:19 AM
Thanks, JB. I didn't want to take the Doc's anti aging study down to post the sheet again. You saved us.
11-03-2006, 05:35 PM
Thanks JB! I got it. Thank you CDB for trying.
JB, you must have been reading my mind. Every time I could do extra, I have been doing it. Today I finished my 8 rep micro-cycle maxes and all I can say is "ouch". I have been doing squats,deads,flat bench in that order and 2 sets of each about wears me out.Then I was doing incline DB,rows,military press,weighted dips and some isolation bicep curls. I feel like I've been through the ringer afterwards.I have actually lost about 2-3 lbs. After today I wondered if I was doing too much but not sure what to cut out. Thinking about the Incline DB for right now.
I was set up to do 3 sets during the 5 rep cycle, would this be about right or too much?
BTW, how many sets of the max-stim are you doing per bodypart?
11-06-2006, 08:20 AM
1 excersise per chest will work great either incline press or dips. For max stim One set period. You may not feel it like you normally would after doing squats but wait till the next day or the day after that and you will. A deep muscle feeling.. it works and good luck...
11-15-2006, 08:36 AM
mastertech.. How are you doing? Just checking to see how the program is going...
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