What the pros do (check this out)
- 06-19-2006, 07:05 PM
What the pros do (check this out)
Guess what i just heard from a very reliable source. Chad nichols( ronnie colemans nutritionist) and many others tell their bodybuilding clients to take 2 months off completely from training after they get done with their shows. They arent even allowed to touch a weight. This is supposed to shock the muscles big time when they go back to training again. has anyone heard of this. I would like to hear what your opinions on this are. What do ya think?
- 06-19-2006, 07:25 PM
Strategic deconditioning. I've never thought you would take that long off, but it helps lower muscle defenses to increase gains when you start back.
06-19-2006, 07:33 PM
Whenever I've taken a period greater than 4 weeks off, It blows chunks coming back, I guess it could work but I don't agree (not that it matters).
06-19-2006, 07:40 PM
I train for 12 weeks and then take two weeks off and that is hard for me to do, I can't imagine taking off two solid months I'd lose what little is left of my mind.
06-19-2006, 11:48 PM
I really believe this, i injured my forearms years and years ago and couldn't even lift weight plates to train legs so i just did cardio for 2.5 months i believe and dropped somewhere in the neighborhood of 25lbs! I was doing cardio so i wouldn't get chubby, it's all i could do and yes it was depressing as hell to watch my hard work get pissed away, i'd see myself shrink in the mirror practically daily. BUT once i got back in the gym i started out with pathetic weights and got my eating and supplementation inline perfectly i rebounded incredibly fast and actually went up in weight, i ended up putting on 40lbs 3 months i believe without much added bodyfat. It really does work, but i'd much rather do controlled over training for 2 weeks followed by a couple weeks of bulking to fastforward progress than take 2 months off. BUt you may be right because when i went to Ronnie's seminar this year he was just coming off of a 3 months layoff i believe and he still looked huge with abs and veins everywhere.
06-20-2006, 12:29 AM
agreed.. I recently took 3 weeks off.. and now I walk like present day Charlton Heston after Saturday's leg workout...Originally Posted by Basso
06-20-2006, 10:41 AM
The value of strategic Deconditioning is debatable. There's a few studies and some discussion about it over the Hypertrophy Research boards, and if I remember right as far as physiological changes go there is no significant deconditioning for most people until they've taken three or more weeks off.Originally Posted by Beebs
06-20-2006, 11:47 AM
Really? Its up to three weeks now? The last time I was in a discussion it was a solid 2 weeks. But several months does seem kind of excessive. Maybe I'll give three weeks a shot on my next S.D.Originally Posted by CDB
06-20-2006, 12:02 PM
06-20-2006, 01:01 PM
That's an aweful lot to take off. Maybe a very light routine and 1-2 weeks off would be more beneficial perhaps ?
06-20-2006, 01:20 PM
Check out the boards. I remember a couple studies being posted showing voluntary strength stayed pretty consistent for most people over the short term though size was lost. When they talk of it over there it's in the unofficial terms of anabolic potential, and the more trained you are the less potential you can realize, so you decondition to get your muscles to be more reactive to stimulus. Thing is you lose size and that's what most of us want. Generally over there I think the consensus for size was progressive loading within constantly reducing rep ranges never going below around 80-85% of your max per rep range, followed by whatever deload or deconditioning you prefer and then repeat. The key basically is if your muscles are less responsive the benefits of Strategic Deconditioning for any length of time might be negligible when compared to simply continuing training within the effective weight range. Of course I think Hay**** claimed he had some studies that proved otherwise, but I think he's saving them for his book(s), should they ever see the light of day.Originally Posted by precious_roy
06-20-2006, 02:07 PM
That seems a bit extreme....but if most of those guys are stacking numerous drugs, their bodies probably need the rest.
I like to take 1 full week off from training twice each year (along with 3 days rest when needed).
06-20-2006, 02:20 PM
I take a week off every 6-8 weeks like somebody is holding a gun to my head, but I could not imagine taking a two month layoff..I should add to CHAPS comment about coming back from injury. I lost 20lbs and counting today have put 45lbs on since Feb.17, 20lbs heavier than my original weight. It has all been with food and creatine pretty much, except for right now
06-20-2006, 03:02 PM
Yep your body will over compensate, so maybe Kevin Levrone knew what he was doing, i bet that guy inflated practically over night. But it doesn't suprise me that he tore his pec and tricep doing it that way, that's gotta be hell on the joints and tendons.
06-20-2006, 03:09 PM
I've been, uh... "strategic reconditioning" (or not ) for between 7-8 months now with a few visits to the gym in between. To tell you the truth, there isa big loss at around the 1-2 month mark and then you just seem to keep most of it. at least for me anyway. I went back in last week and was doing 295 x 5 within a week again on flat bench. surprised the hell outta me.
I can see the value in it...you just need a break, ya know? Only problem is coming back. Its VERY, VERY, VERY HARD to get back in teh routine again.
Now, my only problem with this thread is its a "friend of a friend" type deal. Could be total heresay.
06-20-2006, 03:49 PM
I know this is just my opinion but those guys run a lot of chemicals through their body. I think those two months also might have a lot to do with giving their body a slight break from all of that stuff. I mean, just look at how those guys look the day of a show, i cant imagine what some of them put in their bodies to look that way. Anyone would need a break after that.
06-20-2006, 04:04 PM
06-20-2006, 05:46 PM
06-21-2006, 11:33 AM
I'm thinking these days more in, oddly enough, energy turnover. So I don't decondition anymore, I just drop volume ala Pendlay 5x5 style. Seem's to 'work' for all I feel, and I take the occasional week or so off if I feel it's needed. I wish Hay**** would get his book(s) together and present the evidence on this issue, it's the one that's been most argued in the forums I visit and he still seems to advocate a two week SD as all that's needed.Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier
06-21-2006, 12:40 PM
What is the book he is putting together? A compilation of studies to back up the theory of HST?Originally Posted by CDB
I can't visit the HST site anymore because (ironically) its blocked here at work while this site is not.
06-21-2006, 01:49 PM
I broke my collarbone about 3-4 months ago which kept me out of the gym for 7 weeks and it is amazing after 9-10 years of training that forced time off did something for me. Within the first 2-3 weeks back I was back on track with everything. By three weeks I looked better than I did before and was lifting heavier weights, but I couldn't do it again mentally unless I had to. Hopefully I don't break anything else.
06-21-2006, 02:23 PM
My expirence with this is a little different.
About 2 years ago, I weighed in at like 215ish- (40+lbs of bodyfat, from being unemployed and eventually having no drivers license). I started going back to the gym and quit drinking, and lost weight like crazy. I got down to like 170ish.
I eventually got a new job, moved to the city, and ended up walking 2 miles there and 2 miles back. I got pretty lean, it was nice. Theres is a gold's gym a few blocks away from where I live. I had to wait for a month and a half to get my first paycheck (due to my contract start date, and I was only paid monthly..).
Anyways, For a few months before that, and for that month and a half I had a 30lb dumbell. I used that for more then it was worth for about a month or so, then borrowed some more weights from a friend, not very much though. I couldnt get more then 50lbs on a dumbell, (which seems like enough) but the weiths were uneven, and hard to use.
Long story short, after afew months of that I looked great as hell. ripped,.. built to most.
I then got my menbership to Gold's , and weighed in at 159.5lbs!!!!!
In 3 months, I was able to get up to 168.5. Which isn't impressive by any means, but my "usual weight was 165, and the heaviest I remember being while not fat was 170- years before.
It wasnt so much time off for me, I just took a few months at extreamly low weight and high reps.
But a few months at extreamly low weight, high reps (for only the purpose of muscle preservation) gave me around 3 pounds a month in gains- all this while pulling a total of 4 miles daily on foot to work, in the heat.
The only thing (after this long ass story) I cant decide is if it was the EXTREME difference training style (like going from high volumn to heavy weight- but the differences were huge)
of if it was that while kickin around the 30lb weight, my body basicly interpreted it the same as had I just taken time off all together.
I think, right now, if I could mentally afford to loose 5 pouns of beef, and the accompaning 3 pounds of fat, I'd do it again.
Maybe I'll try it for a week or so and see what happens!
06-21-2006, 03:26 PM
Supposedly two books, both about the science behind HST, one for the layman and another that goes more in depth. OR, he was talking about combining them into one and just have the chapters get more and more technical and people could just stop and skip to the next section, read until it got too technical, repeat. I favor that format. Also who knows how his position has changed over the years now. The cookie cutter HST routine has morphed into all kinds of weird variations too.Originally Posted by precious_roy
To what shanerips and xtraflossy said, there does seem to be a benefit in switching your approach up specifically going from a high workload to a low/nonexistant one, and then jumping back in. It really just hasn't been studied enough to know if that's better than just continued training. Plenty of anecdotes and some evidence though.
I don't know if full rest is mecessary to be honest. After reading a lot on the hypertrophy research site and now the new Max Stim approach that came from that site's owner, I'm not sure if what's needed but I have a vague suspicion it has to do with energy turnover over time. So, when I want a break I modify volume, not weight. Since I like 5x5 routines so much I kind of base my approach a little on the Pendlay routine. I do their deload if I feel like it, but mostly I'm approaching it from a load/peak/decondition phase where the deconditioning phase involves very low volume work for three weeks with the same or slightly lower weights from the end of the cycle. And by low volume I mean 1-3 sets of 5 reps per exercise once a week.
Guess my 'theory' is you lose anabolic potential because of a decrease in your body's response to signaling, specifically to the TTI and how that correlates with ATP/ADP turnover, and well, you get amateur BS theories like mine which may just pan out into a useful approach. That being, by limiting your energy turnover on an anaerobic level for a few weeks, specifically weight lifting, you might acheive the resensitization you want while keeping voluntary strength and a fair amount of size. Haven't been doing it for long, just finished my first deconditioning with this method. Have to say though I feel good, and it seems like my muscles are responding. Good pumps, great 'worked' feeling even though the weights are lower again. I feel like I took two weeks off but I didn't. I just kind of got forced into a massive low volume approach through circumstances, and well, here I am with an idea, kind of like a bird **** on my head.
06-21-2006, 08:57 PM
06-22-2006, 09:53 AM
I believe it. I've had times when I've missed 4-6 weeks (usually due to vacations and what not in the summer). I'm weaker when I go back, but it doesn't take long to get back to where I was when I left off. Also, gains come quicker again almost like when you've had very extended time off. It's kind of like 1 step back 2 steps foward.
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