Advanced discussion: Lifting and cutting... - AnabolicMinds.com

Advanced discussion: Lifting and cutting...

  1. Grunt76's Avatar
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    Advanced discussion: Lifting and cutting...


    So, the common wisdom is that when cutting, keep weights lower and reps higher. Sure. But why?

    All in all, what that boils down to is longer TUT than the vanilla sets of 6-8 "2s up, 1s rest, 1s down, no stretch" reps we see all the time in the gym. Such reps are OK for strength training but all the more knowledgeable bodybuilders know that such reps are far, far from optimal for hypertrophy.

    Longer TUT, such as 5 second reps for sets of 10, are known to be much better than the above for muscle size. 50s TUT / set or so has been referred to by knowledgeable people as the single best method for hypertrophy provided the diet is good, meaning plenty of protein and a calorie excess. While "the single best method" is of course subject to debate, this thread isn't for debating these finer points. I want to make this thread about the rationale for a specific training style or regimen for cutting, which of course would entail a discussion about what would be best for bulking (pretty much a given, stated above) and for recomposition.

    As such, this is why I put "Advanced discussion" in the thread title, to stave off newb comments such as "for me, 15 reps is good while cutting". Which might be true, but is NOT the point of this thread. This thread is more about science than what works for certain individual.

    Now of course long-TUT training such as the 50s regimen mentioned above, does create lots of microfibrillar damage. 15 or 20 reps of 2-1-1-0 style is a pretty clumsy way of achieving this, but the end result is not too far from being the same. Lots of microtearing, which means a lot of hard work for recuperation. Now in a calorie surplus this is perfectly OK since you have lots of energy readily available. Since a calorie surplus is needed for muscle hypertrophy, it ensues that a calorie deficit limits the ability of the muscles to supercompensate the damage. Indeed, if the calorie deficit is too much, catabolism and severe overtraining ensues. From this stems the question: In a calorie deficit, even if the protein is present, what is the best way to keep the muscle?

    It took a while, but there you have my first question. The long-TUT training which is used for hypertrophy will be catabolic in a calorie deficit, that's almost a given from what I know. Now of course if the calorie deficit is small, the athlete might maintain the muscle mass and lose fat, but there will be catabolism when he cuts the calories a little more, attempting to speed up fatloss.

    What the cutting athlete needs IMO is to maintain muscle mass as well as possible while reducing bodyfat through diet and muscle-friendly cardio. To do this, he needs to just stimulate regeneration of the tissue and create the least amount possible of myofibrillar damage. This way, the amount of work needed to maintain the fiber in good shape is easily achievable even in a calorie deficit. Low-intensity cardio and perhaps HIIT can make up the bulk of the fatloss.

    I'm thinking "out loud" on this thread, going from supposition to reasoning. I'm not stating this is definitive science, it is simply my current reasoning on the matter.

    Of course, for the athlete running anabolics, the above-stated reasoning is somewhat different. Maintaining muscle mass should be relatively easy and more damage can be sustained by the muscle without exceeding its ability to repair. Perhaps some long-TUT is doable by the enhanced athlete, but I feel the volume should be limited. So perhaps a HIT-like routine with lots of cardio and a good diet would be best for the natural athlete in cutting mode?

    What do you guys think?

  2. Brennon's Avatar
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    I've always been a fan of using a broad spectrum of repetitions whether you're bulking or cutting in order to mantain strength as well.

    I'm not sure I follow why you say that having a 50 second set would result in a lot of microtearing...I could see glycogen depletion, but the load would not be sufficient to induce much microtearing. AKA the difference between sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar hypertrophy.
  3. LCSULLA's Avatar
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    I remeber Darden saying that even in a catabolic state low reps high poundages work best. I see if I can dig up his book, but I might have gave it away.
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  4. 1ad man's Avatar
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    i belive whether cutting or dieting , bulking or lean mass cycle you should always do 8 reps and go heavy that way you keep your strengh and i believe that strengh and size go hand in hand. Thus most of the time not all the time and i truly believe when cutting go heavy and train hard and do 8 reps just clean up your diet big time and do lots of cardio and that well result in weight loss.

    Remember a strict diet and good lots of cardio will tone your body faster than a couple of extra reps 12 reps say instead of 8 i rather do 1 hr cardio .

    I have used eca stack and these thermo fat loss products the fat comes off fast and comes back fast after your done it is all about eating habits and doing cardio.

    ONe thing is you cant be a couch potatoe when cutting that is for sure. peace and a great thread thanks
  5. CHAPS's Avatar
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    I just believe in lifting hard and heavy as possible whether cutting or bulking, i don't believe in doing higher reps for getting cut.
  6. gixxman's Avatar
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    Personally i think different bodies respond diferently...last year i just maintained my 8 reps/heavy when cutting and my diet was in order along with cardio but i didn't see as much definition as i do when i increase reps or do allot of supersets and drop sets...i think a mix of everything along with hard cardio works best ....well at least for my body
  7. exnihilo's Avatar
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    I think the key to gaining muscle while losing fat is diet. Don't lose more than a pound a week, keep the diet super clean, and keep the protein up. A DC style routine is a pretty good starting place for most people, and combined with the diet you should be fine.
  8. Ubiquitous's Avatar
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    ^^^^ agreed... don't have experience with DC.. but I fully agree in terms of Diet.. and the reasonable expectation of loss per week. If you rush it, you're going to lose unwanted weight if you know what I mean.
  9. cbcortez's Avatar
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    i think we all know the fact that it is physiologically impossible to cut calories and gain muscle mass at the same time. You just cant run a car if you dont put in fuel.

    Even if you are extremely obese, calorie burning does not follow the all or none precept. You will always burn a mixture of your body's protein, carbs/sugar, fat.

    Now given that you are cutting, it is only logical to expect muscle loss. We cannot escape that fact. We can probably minimize it by timing intake of nutrients by trying to ingest the most amount of calories we are allowed to as close to lifting time as possible. This way we can prolly temporarily shift our bodies to anabolic state given the sudden flush of nutrients.

    We can then put up an argument. If it is true that we are very catabolic in this state (cutting). Then wouldnt it be better to just lay off the weights at this time?

    Now, if partitioning is indeed true, then we can simply just all go diet to hell and then eat before and after workouts and still cut and gain muscle forever and ever. This we know is not true.

    As you can see, i really am not answering the question but rather am trying to put out information so we can all the more discuss it.

    Oh, and maybe the reason we still lift is not for muscle hypertrophy but rather for sarcoplasmic reasons??

    Or maybe its just our psychological tendencies? we just need to lift coz we are accustomed to it, if we dont then we shrink....and if our minds think it, it can very well make it happen.....you guys do know the power of the mind right?
  10. cbcortez's Avatar
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    oh and i think this is the reason why pro bodybuilders eat themselves to large sizes during off season way above their weight class because when it is time to cut the fat, they shrink down and hopefully stay in their weight division.

    Ex. if i wanna keep at 200lbs at show time, i eat myself offseason to around 330lbs fat and muscle and then trim it all off.
  11. exnihilo's Avatar
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    Doesn't quite work like that. The body is complicated man, that is a grossly oversimplified model. Franky, the body is capable of fat loss and muscle gain simultaneously. This very rarely occurs in very highly trained athletes (this assumes bodyfat ~10-12%. The body is fully capable of losing fat while creating new muscle, it's just metabolically unfavorable and needs to be coaxed with a precise regimen of diet and exercise ("supplementation" doesn't hurt either in most people.
  12. glenihan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbcortez
    oh and i think this is the reason why pro bodybuilders eat themselves to large sizes during off season way above their weight class because when it is time to cut the fat, they shrink down and hopefully stay in their weight division.

    Ex. if i wanna keep at 200lbs at show time, i eat myself offseason to around 330lbs fat and muscle and then trim it all off.

    first pro bodybuilding doesn't have weight classes

    secondly NO bodybuilder that bulks up to 330 comes in at 200 .. at 330 you shouldn't compete at less than 280 ... 230 would diet down to 200
  13. xtraflossy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exnihilo
    Doesn't quite work like that. The body is complicated man, that is a grossly oversimplified model. Franky, the body is capable of fat loss and muscle gain simultaneously. This very rarely occurs in very highly trained athletes (this assumes bodyfat ~10-12%. The body is fully capable of losing fat while creating new muscle, it's just metabolically unfavorable and needs to be coaxed with a precise regimen of diet and exercise ("supplementation" doesn't hurt either in most people.
    This is true. Remembering that we measure bodyfat on percentages,..
    It is possible to keep the exact same amount of fat on you, while increasing muscle tiussue (volumn) under that fat. This change in body mass, results in the PERCENTAGE of bodyfat to be lower.

    Just my opinion here, as I dont have any proof on hand, but the actual training protocal followed shouldn't need to be altered. If you realize that your NOT atempting to throw on massive amounts of muscle, then continueing the same training methoed (reps and sets and even in some cases the weight) will Not force hypertrophy to the same extent, neither will it allow for any any noticable amount of "shrinkage", because the same demand (for the muscle) is still there.
    I know that unless I pay close attention to my diet I wont gain anything anymore. At that token, no training methoed will produce results. I will just remain "as is". Aside from making slight alterations in reps, weight, volumn that will/should occure normally over time, Diet plays the most crucial role IMO.
    It can get tricky altering you diet, training methoed, timing of your meals...
    Wouldn't it just be simpler to just change one thing? If cutting, I keep my calorie intake the same, my training the same, my eating patterens are constant, all I do is ADD cardio (more then I would normally do). This then, can make it much more simple. Plus, not having to gues what variable to adjust is welcome as well, and makes yout time more effective over the long run.
    - This just comes from MY knowlage background (the extent of that knowlage is anyones guess - But I based it on what I beleive I know to be true.
  14. Grunt76's Avatar
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    ^^^
    Valuable input, thanks.
  15. exnihilo's Avatar
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    Well bro, just as an example my waist has gotten smaller and I am visibly leaner than a month and a half ago. My weight is only different by one pound... Since I didn't grow any new muscle, maybe my **** grew?

    Edit: On a side note though bro, I'm probably not as lean as you so maybe that's why I've been successfull in my recomping efforts.

    Also, if you can start to lose fat just by adding cardio you are probably really skating the line with your caloric intake in your diet in the first place. You might have an easier time gainining if you bumped the food up a little bit.
  16. cbcortez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glenihan
    first pro bodybuilding doesn't have weight classes

    secondly NO bodybuilder that bulks up to 330 comes in at 200 .. at 330 you shouldn't compete at less than 280 ... 230 would diet down to 200
    hi again. good morning to you all...at least here its morning.

    I was just giving an example with the weight thing wasnt really trying to be accurate or anything.

    Im also not very fond of watching pro bodybuilder competition. So i just naturally thought they had weight divisions coz i wasnt expecting Arnold to compete head to head with Toby Mcguire if he decides to go on to bodybuilding.

    My bad on both accounts.

    Anyways.

    just to ask some of the people who commented

    If you had gotten leaner over a month and a half with your weight differing by just a pound, could it possibly be water transfer?

    Also, I am not discounting the fact that it can happen. Like I said it may be possible to minimize, or in some of the cases presented here, even develop more muscle by nutrient partitioning.

    But can someone explain to me in simple terms how your car can run on minimal fuel. It may be a simple analogy but sometimes simple works (much like in bodybuilding)
  17. xtraflossy's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=exnihilo]Well bro, just as an example my waist has gotten smaller and I am visibly leaner than a month and a half ago. My weight is only different by one pound... Since I didn't grow any new muscle, maybe my **** grew?

    Edit: On a side note though bro, I'm probably not as lean as you so maybe that's why I've been successfull in my recomping efforts.

    Also, if you can start to lose fat just by adding cardio you are probably really skating the line with your caloric intake in your diet in the first place. You might have an easier time gainining if you bumped the food up a little bit.[/QUOTE]

    This couldn't be closer to the truth!
    Right now (and the past year) I have certin limits I can not get past consistantly. These would be that I dont have a car, so I bike/walk 2 miles to work one way, and another 2 on the way back. Also, I can only carry 1 book bag of groceries back with me when I go shopping (about once a week. But recently, I have been lucky enough that some of the females Im seeing like to take me shopping,.. so then I can get a car load ya know! )
    So, Im pretty close to my line. Honestly, I started riding my bike to work, and that probably saves a bunch of cals I otherwise wouldnt save.
    I can bulk,.. the problem lies in I eat the majority of my cals at night,.. cause I I eat breakfast at like 6:30am,.. stop at 7/11 on the way to work: 2 pre-made subs and a met-Rx bar- So you are correct, that if I add any extra cardio I would probably cut up.
    However, with these things though,.. the harder methoed is usually more bennificial.
    If hard work pays off then easy work is worthless- so making major diet adjustments is hard for me (as stated above) and the fact that I eat clean 99% of the time out of habbit.
    - Anywyas- I still think it's sound advice,. sorry to go on and on and on...
  

  
 

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