Delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS)
- 01-20-2006, 05:49 PM
Delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS)
Well, I switched up my workout plan... I have always been doing 3 sets 8-10 reps 3-4 exercise per muscle group. Working each muscle group once a week .... In the past three weeks, I've upped my reps to 15-20 with massive "grunting" pain at the end of each set... I think they call it muscle annihilations (spelling) I figured it would be a great shock to my muscles.... Now my question is: A day or two after I work a muscle group I get DOMS. Is this a sure thing your working your muscles right and getting the best out of your workout? It seems to me, If your muscles are sore a couple days later... You tore them up pretty good and hope for a good repair.... Just doing ez-bar curls, incline DB curls, hammer curls, scull crushers, dips and rope push downs the past three weeks with my new approach, I've already noticed my arms getting bigger.
- 01-21-2006, 03:45 AM
Sounds like lactic acid build up to me. I use to know a few cyclists that swore by pre-loading sodium bicarbonate as an effective blood buffer against serious DOMS. But yeah, sounds like you shocked your routine alright. It's always good to keep training styles fresh.
- 01-25-2006, 02:25 AM
Originally Posted by DR.D
The pain you feel is just your muscles being tore up.
01-25-2006, 04:25 AM
Ummmm what the hell are you talking about? It sounds like he hasn't used his muscles like this in a long time which would make sense that he had a good amount of lactic acid build-up which can lead to DOMS.Originally Posted by PHWSSJ
01-25-2006, 06:42 AM
Actually, it sounds like he is more on point than you. He is correct in his statement re: lactic acid, although I do not know if 30 minutes is accurate for all. Depends on the individual. The body becomes more efficient at clearing/converting lactic acid, especially with endurance athletes. Nonetheless, it is safe to say that within 24hrs it is a non-issue.Originally Posted by Rage (SoCal)
Here is a link to another post that may provide a better understanding:
Why cant i walk for 3 days after doing legs?
Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC
01-25-2006, 08:07 AM
not to argue w/ you, bros but DOMS *does* factor lactic acid build-up, but it in the interstitial fluid, not the blood. Tearing into your muscles like that creates swelling & that swelling traps lactic acid away from the normal fluid flow. This is why slow stretching thru the ROM is important to recovery - it mechanically pumps fresh fluid to flush out the trapped waste products (including but not limited to lactic acid) from the tear-down site - and yes, that *does* speed recovery...and reduce the pain.
as for the body getting better at clearing LA - I think you'll find that past a certain point, endurance work impacts the system as a whole & does not create the specific tissue injuries in the muscles that we see in other athletes; add to that the lack of resulting tissue swelling, the pursuant lack of trapped fluid, and the mechanical pumping action of most endurance work (I'm thinking cyclists & runners) - and of course the heavy fluid intake that accompanies the average endurance activity, and you have an entirely different mechano-chemical situation.
jonny21 - thanks for the links to those articles: interesting stuff, but a little 'ivory-tower' compared to hands-on experience w/ the tissues themselves. I'll study them at greater length when I'm more awake (gotta get to work!)
01-25-2006, 08:33 AM
I also do not want to argue. Maybe this would be good research if working on a MS or PhD. I have not heard or read of the theory you mention regarding trapped lactic acid. Any info would be appreciated. Sometimes I need to pry my mind open with alternate ideas.Originally Posted by BodyWizard
By the way lactic acid should not be considered a waste product but more of a by-product and it is an important substrate of glucose metabolism via the Cori cycle.
Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC
01-25-2006, 09:38 AM
I do the same thing as Jim, but with only 3 sets per body part and 6 reps since I'm an ecto. I have DOMS appear anywhere from 36-48 hours after a workout, pretty much every time.
I can still move around, it's only moderately painful to flex the muscle with DOMS, usually takes another 72 or so hours for it to disappear.
Am I going too hard in the gym, just about right nor not hard enough?
01-25-2006, 03:59 PM
For what it's worth.... Found this on another site. Believe it or not.
If you are a regular exerciser and on the day after a hard workout, you never feel soreness in your muscles, you are not exercising properly and you will not improve your fitness level as much as you could. Take a tip from competitive athletes who train by taking a hard workout, feeling sore on the next day and then take easy workouts until the soreness goes away in a day or two.
The good soreness that makes you stronger is called DOMS (Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness) and is caused by microscopic tears in your muscle fibers. It is not caused by lactic acid buildup. When muscles are damaged, they produce healing prostaglandin that cause muscles to become bigger and stronger than before they were exercised vigorously. Researchers have shown that DOMS heals faster when you do nothing, but if you take off every time your muscles feel sore, you will never become an athlete and you will not reach a high level of fitness. When you exert very slight pressure on your muscles when you have DOMS, you cause muscle fibers to become more fibrous and they will become stronger so they can withstand greater stress during your harder workouts. Never try to put a lot of pressure on your muscles when they feel sore. That will markedly increase your chances of injuring yourself.
It is relatively easy to tell the difference between DOMS and an impending injury. DOMS is usually symmetrical, involving muscles equally on both sides of your body. An injury is more likely to cause pain that is only on one side. DOMS does not feel worse as you exercise at light intensity. An injury worsens with continued use of the injured part. Stop exercising when you have an injury.
When your muscles feel sore from exercising, take the day off or exercise with very light resistance, such as running or cycling very slowly, or lifting extremely light weights. Try stretching gently to help restore flexibility. Deep massage may help you to heal faster and toughen your muscles. Creams and ice will not help you recover faster, but many aspirin-containing creams and the coldness from ice may help alleviate discomfort.
01-25-2006, 11:12 PM
Originally Posted by BodyWizard
Not true, ....you know the feeling you get when you get a good bicept workout and you are really sore and you cannot fully extend your arms....well the reason is because your body does not want you to stretch that way. The reason being is because by fully extending your arms your bicepts would be doing an eccentric contraction...well if you know anything about exercise physiology then you would know that eccentric contractions break your muscles down more than concentric contractions. So there is an automatic reflex in your muscles that tries to keep them from doing eccentric contractions while they are trying to heal.....so actually you would be hindering the healing process when you stretch.....Just like the above statement...doing nothing is the best way to heal correctly.
...And NO, lactic acid does not get trapped in the muscles...this has been proven by scientific research>>>muscle biopsy.
01-25-2006, 11:27 PM
I no longer have my text (fell apart some time ago - it was the Marieb, so fairly respectable) but this is what i was taught in A&P class; there certainly may have been new research w/ different outcomes in the last 15 years, but I haven't heard about it. If I'm wrong, I'm always willing to build a better understanding!Originally Posted by jonny21
good point - thanks!Originally Posted by jonny21
01-25-2006, 11:30 PM
Research has come a long way in 15 years... a long way...the old way of thinking was that lactic acid caused DOMS...but new reaserch has proven otherwise!Originally Posted by BodyWizard
01-25-2006, 11:31 PM
make reasonable sense to me, based on my experience.Originally Posted by Jim Mills
a point: my ref. to LA was as an irritant to the stress-damaged tissue, not as the cause of the damage, and therefore a factor in increasing the soreness.
interesting stuff - nice thread!
01-25-2006, 11:40 PM
just like that, huh? so I should throw out years of training & decades of successful clinical practice? Maybe you could provide some information with your nay-saying. At least put up something to backup your contention that stretching hinders healing, because experience w/ several thousand clients tells me either you're spouting nonsense, or we're not talking about the same things at all.Originally Posted by PHWSSJ
and how about a link on that biopsy you're talking about.
not meaning to be rude, dude, but you're telling me I don't know my **** & putting up nothing to suggest you know yours, so pardon me asking!
01-25-2006, 11:43 PM
That's what I was always taught as well; if you didn't stretch each group for at least 8 seconds after you had finished all your reps, you wouldn't grow. No stretches were to be done between sets for the "eccentric" issue that PHWSSJ stated, yet needed at the end of the w/o for bundle and fascia stretching for maximum growth long term.Originally Posted by BodyWizard
01-25-2006, 11:44 PM
I'm genuinely serious in asking you to link to some of that 'proof otherwise' - it would be a favor to everyone!Originally Posted by PHWSSJ
01-25-2006, 11:50 PM
You know it's lactic acid when you've been sore for 3 days, but do a heavy set and it instantly goes away! Like BW said, lactic acid occludes the tissue spaces, and consequential prostaglandin and mast cell involvement (histamine release from tissue injury) will only add to soreness more. Tiny tears in muscle don't heal in 60 seconds after 1 heavy set. Mobilized lactic acid will explain it. I am always interested to learn, and am could be oversimplifying, so please elaborate.Originally Posted by PHWSSJ
01-25-2006, 11:59 PM
Good evening, Doc!Originally Posted by DR.D
I can see from your post that PHWSS & I *have* been talking at cross-purposes: I never heard thae thing about stretching after each muscle group (during the WO, right? never did that but maybe once - I just shake it out & let the 'stuck' fibriles relax naturally) - I was talking about when the DOMS would show up hours later - might make no difference theoretically, in light of new research, but my experience personally and w/ others is that stretching is an efficient aid in reducing post-exercise muscle soreness and in restoring normal RoM & normal movement.
Again, pointers, please, to better information: if I'm not giving my folks their money's worth, I want to correct it. While I'm at it, is ther ANY BASIS for the fascial-stretching-permits-muscle-growth concept? Fascia is interesting stuff w/ fascinating properties, but preventing muscle *growth* seems just out-of-the-park to me!
01-26-2006, 12:03 AM
Damn, Doc - you make me wish (again!) I'd taken the med-school / o-chem route! The human body is hands-down the most interesting thing there is....Originally Posted by DR.D
01-26-2006, 12:13 AM
I wish I had that proof on hand...I learned it from reading ACSM medical journals and Exercise physiology classes in college...just knowlege I retained.Originally Posted by BodyWizard
01-26-2006, 12:19 AM
These muscle biopsy tests are taken from people before they exercise, while they are exercising and after they exercise....another reaserch I remember is that amino acid stack (30-40g) taken 30 min before exercise increases blood circulation to muscles by 90%. There is all kinds of stuff you learn from medical journals and being an assistant for a profferssor doing reaserch in a University.
There is proof in the science....modern technology has changed a lot of thoeries that have been around for decades just in the past five years!
01-26-2006, 12:28 AM
Hey Wiz! You are indeed a fine doc, always trying to gain a better understanding for the benefit of your patients. I was always trained to NEVER stretch in between sets, and never let the tension off of a muscle group during the exercise. ONLY stretch at the end of the workout (or at least the specific group being worked). Stretching at the end reduced soreness and fosters ultimate growth. A lack of stretching isn't supposed to prevent growth, just be detrimental for long term development. Of course, I'm old school like you, so everything may have changed at this point! Might explain why I still don't look like Arnold yet (LOL)Originally Posted by BodyWizard
01-26-2006, 12:34 AM
I know exactly what you mean my friend. I remember the important stuff, just forget where I learned it! Thanks for the new angle. I must look into this DOMS issue more when I can make time. I have heard that bicarb's make great blood buffers for endurance related DOMS at least (like biking and running), if not for resistance training. That suggests a strong link to lactic acid, so other mechanisms must be involved if this can't fully explain it.Originally Posted by PHWSSJ
01-26-2006, 01:04 AM
Buddy of mine is the dietitian for a NFL football team. Alka-Seltzer in the gatorade is not uncommon.Originally Posted by DR.D
DR.D & BW, Exercise physiology is not my forte. I have done a great deal of online researching and have found multiple references to lactic acid being removed within 60 minutes. I have also found multiple references that point to enzymes being a contributing factor as well as micro-tears.
In reference to the bicarb as buffers, I think it is important to remember that most endurance athletes at certain points are working above their anaeroobic threshold. A level we are not acheiving with resistance training. The buffer is for more of an immediate aid to assist the athlete in continuing. I know from my personal experience cycling (50-100 miles) I have not experienced DOMS although I have been stiff for up to 4-6 hours after. Next morning I am good to go. After a good leg workout though, I typically experience DOMS not the 1st day after but the 2nd & sometimes 3rd. just my experience and opinion.
Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC
01-26-2006, 02:17 AM
I grapple and am currently expeimenting with L-Carnosine injections....seems to be working so far!Originally Posted by DR.D
01-26-2006, 03:12 AM
Guys--lactate does not cause DOMS...Lactate does not act as an acid in the body but rather a buffer AGAINST acidosis. The burning feeling in your muscles is NOT the accumulation of lactate.
In the formation of lactate a proton is consumed, which results in an alkalizing effect on the cell. The hydrolyzation of ATP during glycolysis is what induces acidosis, but it's unrelated to DOMS.
What causes DOMS is still not completely known.
Here's a good read on Lactate if you're interested...I can email the PDF if anyone wants.
Am J Physiol Regul Integr Comp Physiol287: R502–R516, 2004;
Biochemistry of exercise-induced metabolic acidosis.
01-30-2006, 12:16 AM
Frustrating for both of us...still, I know how that goes - guess we're both at the mercy of memory!Originally Posted by PHWSSJ
01-30-2006, 06:37 PM
It has been proven that DOMS has nothing to do with lactic acid. The prostaglanding theory is accepted as the most likely at this point but hasn't been fully demonstrated.
BUT the l-carnosine experimentors will probably come up with reports that even large amounts of l-carnosine injected in the quads prior to an intense leg workout do not reduce in any way the DOMS felt 1-2 days later. OTOH, users of X-Factor report markedly increased DOMS, so...
01-30-2006, 07:15 PM
Makes sense due to increase of arachidonic acid there would be an increase in inflammation.Originally Posted by Grunt76
01-30-2006, 10:01 PM
01-30-2006, 10:14 PM
I am interested to know where you got this information from. To my knowledge, the true cause of DOMS is unknown, but there are 4 or 5 theories that are deemed plausible. One of these is lactic acid buildup. I cant remember them all but I think connective and muscle damage are also frontrunners. Also, inflammation is high on the list of possibilities.Originally Posted by Grunt76
I have noticed that ALCAR seems to drastically reduce DOMS... has anyone else noticed this?
01-30-2006, 10:19 PM
Evidence? This article could not find a link between DOMS and PGE2.Originally Posted by Grunt76
Arch Physiol Biochem. 1996;104(3):322-9. Related Articles, Links
Myocellular enzyme leakage, polymorphonuclear neutrophil activation and delayed onset muscle soreness induced by isokinetic eccentric exercise.
Croisier JL, Camus G, Deby-Dupont G, Bertrand F, Lhermerout C, Crielaard JM, Juchmes-Ferir A, Deby C, Albert A, Lamy M.
Department of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation, CHU, Liege, Belgium.
To address the question of whether delayed onset muscular soreness (DOMS) following intense eccentric muscle contraction could be due to increased production of the arachidonic acid derived product prostaglandin E2 (PGE2). 10 healthy male subjects were submitted to eccentric and concentric isokinetic exercises on a Kin Trex device at 60 degrees/s angular velocity. Exercise consisted of 8 stages of 5 maximal contractions of the knee extensor and flexor muscle groups of both legs separated by 1 min rest phases. There was an interval of at least 30 days between eccentric and concentric testing, and the order of the two exercise sessions was randomly assigned. The subjective presence and intensity of DOMS was evaluated using a visual analogue scale, immediately, following 24 h and 48 h after each test. Five blood samples were drawn from an antecubital vein: at rest before exercise, immediately after, after 30 min recovery, 24 h and 48 h after the tests. The magnitude of the acute inflammatory response to exercise was assessed by measuring plasma levels of polymorphonuclear elastase ([EL]), myeloperoxidase ([MPO]) and PGE2 ([PGE2]). Using two way analysis of variance, it appeared that only eccentric exercise significantly increased [EL] and DOMS, especially of the hamstring muscles. Furthermore, a significant decrease in eccentric peak torque of this muscle group only was observed on day 2 after eccentric work (- 21%; P < 0.002). Serum activity of creatine kinase and serum concentration of myoglobin increased significantly 24 and 48 h after both exercise tests. However, these variables reached significantly higher values following eccentric contractions 48 h after exercise. Mean [PGE2] in the two exercise modes remained unchanged over time and were practically equal at each time point. On the basis of these findings, we conclude that the magnitude of polymorphonuclear (PMN) activation, muscle damage, and DOMS are greater after eccentric than after concentric muscle contractions. However, the hypothesized interplay between muscle damage, increased PGE2 production, DOMS sensations, and reduced isokinetic muscle performance was not substantiated by the present results.
01-30-2006, 10:30 PM
I'll stand behind those that say lactic acid does not cause DOMS...that's what I remember from ex phys (MS), and as far as I know it's still holds up. I believe that the cause of DOMS has not been discovered yet.
There are many theories but all have holes in them. For starters DOMS does not fit the true definition of "pain". Pain is supposed to be a protective machanism...touch something hot, you pull your hand away. DOMS does not protect us from anything as the pain does not set in until 12 to 72 hours after the cause. Also, type 3 and 4 nerve endings (the ones sensitive to pain), do not exist in the muscle tissue, but only in the surrounding connective tissue.
Just food for thought...
01-30-2006, 10:34 PM
Release of algesic substances in human experimental muscle pain.
Tegeder L, Zimmermann J, Meller ST, Geisslinger G.
Pharmazentrum frankfurt, Klinikum der Johann Wolfgang Goethe-Universitat, Frankfurt am Main, Germany. email@example.com
OBJECTIVE: We employed the 'delayed onset of muscle soreness' (DOMS) and the 'hypertonic saline' muscle pain models in combination with muscle microdialysis to evaluate the role of potentially algesic substances (lactate, glutamate, prostaglandin E2 (PGE2), nitric oxide (NO) and substance P (SP)) in the development of human muscle pain. METHODS: DOMS was induced by 2 sets of 50 concentric/eccentric contractions of the calf muscles 24 h before the start of microdialysis. During microdialysis pain was stimulated through calf muscle contractions (dorsal and plantar flexions of the foot). Hypertonic saline was injected into the biceps muscle (5 x 200 microl 5.8% NaCl, 2 min interval) during dialysis. The calf (no treatment) and biceps (normal saline) of the other side was used as control. RESULTS: Both models reliably induced muscle pain with similar intensities as assessed by visual analog scale. The DOMS exercise caused an increase of lactate in serum and the calf muscles of the DOMS leg. In addition, glutamate, PGE2 and substance P dialysate concentrations increased following contraction-induced pain stimulation (peak concentrations 125 +/- 20 microM, 239 +/- 45 pg/ml and 60 +/- 11 pg/ml for glutamate, PGE2 and SP, respectively). This increase did not occur in the control leg (peak concentrations 97 +/- 12 microM, 114 +/- 26 pg/ml and 46 +/- 9 pg/ml for glutamate, PGE2 and SP, respectively). Concentrations of nitric oxide were lower in the DOMS than control leg, particularly during the first 4h of microdialysis. Injection of hypertonic saline into the biceps muscle caused a significant increase of dialysate glutamate concentrations (peak 50 +/- 3 microM) whereas glutamate remained constant after injection of normal saline (mean 26 +/- 1 microM). Injection of hypertonic saline had no effect on lactate, PGE2 or NO levels. CONCLUSION: Our data support the notion that an inflammatory reaction may be involved in muscle soreness following eccentric exercise, whereas the injection of hypertonic saline into the muscle probably directly stimulates muscle nociceptors and causes glutamate release.
PMID: 12234056 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
As I said, it is often thought to be the most likely theory but not fully proven.
01-30-2006, 11:40 PM
Originally Posted by Grunt76
You misunderstood me. L-Carnosine ....not for DOMS but as a blood buffer increase anerobic glycolosis energy system.....to make you last a little longer.
01-30-2006, 11:41 PM
01-08-2009, 01:18 AM
You know when you have to poop the day after that first leg workout from a time of inactivity, hahaha that just happened to me:-)
It hurts so good.
01-08-2009, 03:07 AM
I drink Xtend during the end of my workout, and after it. I dont get DOMS o.o. Well, after a really really good day of what is likely over training....yeah then i get some.
01-08-2009, 02:01 PM
I've been getting DOMS after every leg workout for the last 2 months. Sometimes it lasts for 6 or 7 days. I've found that it doesn't matter how much I eat, how much xtend I drink, or what supplements I take..... I'm gonna be sore. It Pisses me off sometimes, especially when I am walking to class and up 5+ flights of stairs..... :
I have been feeling a little under the weather lately, so I'm just attributing it to a downed immune system for now.
01-08-2009, 03:23 PM
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