ideal 4-day split for max. recovery?

[stalemate]

i'm wondering what the most strategic 4 day split is working out Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday? or if you do a 4 day/week split, and like it and have seen good gains, tell me what you do. right now i'm doing:

Monday - Legs/Abs
Tuesday - Shoulders/Back (traps)

Thursday - Bi's/Tris
Friday - Chest/Forearms

i don't believe this gives me the ideal recovery time on some of my muscle groups and frankly, i want to be handed the ideal routine by experience, instead of guessing.

although i did think about it and i wanna hear some input on this routine.

M-Chest/Back
T-Legs/Abs

Th-Bis/Tris
F-Shoulers/Forearms/possibly abs again.

that gives good recovery for my arms and delts from the monday workout til they are directly worked again Th and F right? and is the weekend enough for my shoulders to recover for Monday's chest workout?

 

[hypo]

This is what I'm doing right now:

1)Shoulders
2)Legs/Bis
3)Off
4)Off
5)Chest/Tris
6)Back
7)Off
8)Off

Then it just repeats. I found out that by breaking from the traditional weekly split I could get my extra rest day in there and not have to compromise with short recovery time for some muscle groups. This split above seperates everything pretty much as best as you can get, IMHO; 3 days rest between similar muscle groups. Plus, if I miss a workout, no big deal, just an extra rest day. It doesn't mess up the whole schedule like a weekly routine would.

 

[hypo]

BTW the "super traditional" split I think you were looking for is:

M:Chest/tris
T:Legs
W:Off
Th:Shoulders
F:Back/Bis
S:Off
S:Off

or a variation...

 

[Phoenix rising]

Mon: Push (strength) Low Volume, Low Reps, Heavy Weights long rest periods
Tue: Pull (strength) Low Volume, Low Reps, Heavy Weights long rest periods
Wed: Off
Thu: Push (hypertrophy) Higher volume, Higher reps, Moderate Weights, Short rest periods
Fri: Pull (hypertrophy) Higher volume, Higher reps, Moderate weights, Short rest periods

 

[stalemate]

Mon: Push (strength) Low Volume, Low Reps, Heavy Weights long rest periods
Tue: Pull (strength) Low Volume, Low Reps, Heavy Weights long rest periods
Wed: Off
Thu: Push (hypertrophy) Higher volume, Higher reps, Moderate Weights, Short rest periods
Fri: Pull (hypertrophy) Higher volume, Higher reps, Moderate weights, Short rest periods

so this would go off of exercises instead of purely just "muscle grouping". so "exercise grouping"? maybe an example?

 

[Phoenix rising]

so this would go off of exercises instead of purely just "muscle grouping". so "exercise grouping"? maybe an example?

There are several different ways you can set this routine up depending on your goals.
Heres a link that might help you out: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19423&highlight=push+pull

 

[stream187]

Here's my current 4 day split:
Monday:
Chest/Back/Traps
3x6 Incline dumbells alternated with 3x10-12 barbell rows
3x10 barbell bench alternated with 3x6 pulldowns
3x10 Dumbell shrugs

Wednesday:
Legs/Calves/Shoulder
3x6 squats
3x10 hamstring curls
3x10 standing calf raises
3x8 military press
ab work

Friday
Chest/back/traps
Same as monday, only different excercises. A bit more isolation, as to not exhaust arms too much for the next day

Saturday
Bicep/tricep/legs
3x10 leg press
ab work
3x10 skullcrushers alternated with 3x6 dumbell curls
3x6 close grip benchpress alternated with 3x10 barbell curls
3x10 forearm excercise

It started out as a body - arms/leg split twice a week, but it evolved into this contraption Rep ranges change constantly as I'm trying to improve number of reps or weights each week. But basicly, one low rep heavy weight excercise coupled with a high rep slightly lower weight excercise.

 

[Sticks]

Chest/Tris/Abs
Back/Calves
off
Bi/shoulders/Abs
Legs
off

 

[Grmlock]

If you can pair back and chest together then you are not working them correctly;also you would not want to have tri's before shoulders because it will negatively impact your ability on pressesLately I have been doing this routine and my bosy is responding nicely:
Chest/Bis
off
off
Tris/delt
Back/traps
off
Legs(ham am, quads/calves pm)

The only thing you may want to flip is back and tris if you do deads and squats b/c 48 hrs is not enough rest for the lower back

 

[Phoenix rising]

If you can pair back and chest together then you are not working them correctly.DISAGREE: Chest and Back are agonist/antagonist muscle groups. This can be a highly efffective workout performed
A1 Incline Dumbell Presses A2 Barbell Rows etc.

you would not want to have tri's before shoulders because it will negatively impact your ability on presses.AGREE: Enough said above.

 

[Grmlock]

I know that they are antagonists but unless you have the strength of a god there is NO way you can adequately stimulate both chest and back at the same session. Deads, bench, rows, chins, etc...if you can do all of these then you are not putting maximal effort into either muscle. It is hard enough for me to do back and traps together let alone a muscle as complex as pecs.

If you can pair back and chest together then you are not working them correctly.
DISAGREE: Chest and Back are agonist/antagonist muscle groups. This can be a highly efffective workout performed
A1 Incline Dumbell Presses A2 Barbell Rows etc.

 

[Phoenix rising]

I know that they are antagonists but unless you have the strength of a god there is NO way you can adequately stimulate both chest and back at the same session. Deads, bench, rows, chins, etc...if you can do all of these then you are not putting maximal effort into either muscle. It is hard enough for me to do back and traps together let alone a muscle as complex as pecs.


I guess you're just a weenie.

 

[exnihilo]

If you can pair back and chest together then you are not working them correctly

Sorry, but you are completely wrong. Back and chest can be worked on the same day with great results.

To the original poster - I suggest trying two push/pull days and two leg days, for example

day 1: bench, shoulder press, bent over rows, reverse flyes
day 2: squat, good morning
day 3: incline press, dips, pulldowns/chins, face pulls
day 4: deadlift, weighted hyperextensions

You can salt with the occasional curl or other isolation exercise if a particular bodypart seems to be lagging - don't overdo it though.

 

[Grmlock]

Ex, I think that we have a different philosophy towards training. By that I mean that you have more of a powerlifting school of thought while I have more of a hypertrophy. Regarding the pairing of chest and back, I believe it was Dorian yates that said, "If you put in maximum intensity and focus, then back should be worked by itself." I am not opposed to pairing smaller muscles with back(e.g. traps, forearms), but I have found that due to the complexity of the half a dozen muscles within the back it is ideal to work back alone to focus on each contraction and pump the lats, teres, etc. for optimal stimulation.

 

[stream187]

If you can pair back and chest together then you are not working them correctly;

Doing back/chest alternating on the same day gives some more recovery time between working the same muscle. I've found that I'm upping the reps/weight every week

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Here is my current 4 day:

Monday: Quads / Hams / Abs
- Squats x 3
- Leg Press high, wide, and slow x 3
- Pull Throughs 2 x 15-20
- Seated Ham Curl x 3
- One Legged Ham Curl x 0-2
- Leg Extensions x 2
- Abs 2 x 20

Tuesday: Chest / Calves
- Flat BB Press x 3
- Incline Smith x 3
- Dumbells or Cables x 0-2
- Calves x 3 (varies)

Wednesday: OFF

Thursday: Back / Abs
- Deads x 3
- One Arm Row x 3
- Pull Down x 3
- Good Mornings 2 x 15-20
- Abs 2 x 20

Friday: Delts / Bis / Tris
- Military Dumbell x 3
- Military Smith x 3
- Side Laterals
- Curls x 3 (varies)
- Tris x 3 (varies)

Saturday: OFF

Sunday: OFF

 

[Iron Warrior]

Grmlock: I still think we can incorporate some power lifting strategies that exnihilio talks about for hypertrophy. For example, I find that my hypertrophy goals are good and strength is even better when I hit each muscle 2x a week. I understand it doesn't work great for everyone but experimenting with it for a 8 weeks can be worth it.

 

[exnihilo]

Grimlock, you are focusing too much on "hitting the muscles from every angle" and "feeling it". Even if your goal is hypertrophy, that stuff is bunk... There is only one measure of a program's effectiveness for hypertrophy - are you growing? Focus on a couple of heavy compound exercises for push and for pull, pack on mass that way, then when you have a lot of size you can focus on other exercises that improve certain lagging areas. Don't try to hit everything full bore from the get-go, you're just going to waste time and overtrain.

 

[Grmlock]

Iron Warrior- I incorporate PW strategies and by that I mean that i base my program around compound lifts, but I have found that my body responds better to once/wk training.

Ex- my feeling on back comes from that it is much harder to etch details in comparison to width. I share the PW belief that deads are the most important lift for back, but there are a host of others lifts that play a major role in back development. For a beginner or intermediate, I understand the need for a 2x/wk split, but once a certain point is reached new techniques must be applied and greater focus to each muscle at each lifting session.

Despite our differences in lifting philosophy, I will be the first to admit that there is no universal principle except that overload on the muscle is the key to new growth at any level.

 

[exnihilo]

As you become stronger you need to do LESS volume/intensity in most cases, and focus on special exercises that bring up weak points rather than try to hammer the same exercise over and over.

As for the whole "detailing" thing, I think that's silly as ****, but if you really want to try and bring your rhomboids out in proportion to your lower trapezius you're welcome to. In that case isolation exercises and additional volume with low intensity and short rest periods would be ideal.