Squats!!!

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    Squats!!!


    ok guys i was in the gym doing squats in the gym with my workout partner wen a guy came over to my partner....now my partner for some reason cant do squats its hard for him...nd i guess this guy saw me tryin to explain to him so he came over and showed him...he said u have to go all the way down wen u squat....but i always thought wen u squat ur thighs are suppose to be 90 degress any lower then that is bad for ur knees....how should i perform squats??

    full squats all the way to the floor (where ass touches the floor)

    or normal squats?

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    i gotta love the arse to the grass squat (it rhymes in an australian accent! )
    i belive there was a study done that actually shows that they are safer to do than 90degree squats because it places less stress on the knees and focus' more of the load towards the hips
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    grass squat???? wat is that?
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    LoL, ass to the grass = ass to the floor (not literally of course). Just as long as you don't rest on your calves at the end of your negative motion, that yes, this is the only way to squat....
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    What squat technique you use definitely depends on what you're doing them for. I would do parallel squats if you were lifting for a competition or had some sort of ailment that would prevent you from squatting deep...other than that, I recommmend going ass to calves on squats.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flex87
    ....90 degress any lower then that is bad for ur knees....how should i perform squats??

    full squats all the way to the floor (where ass touches the floor)

    or normal squats?
    100% gym lore (for healthy individuals). Ass to grass is easier on your knees b/c the load is transferred to your hips, which are capable of handling a bigger load.

    I had knee problems, exmgq (mod at a fe different boards and a big ass PLer) slapped me into condition, I did a week of ass to grass squats and my knees are already feeling better than ever.

    ASs to grass is the way to go. The most important thing is the positioning of your toes relative to your knees. Make sure toes are pointing in a "natural" direction. For example, have you noticed that as you widen your stance your toes want to move outward? Well...that's because it's natural LOL. Anyway, keep your toes pointing in a naturral direction.
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    Ass to the grass squats will place significant load on your patella tendon. This is usually a bad thing... Also, squats where your knees come out past your toes are asking for trouble, from a biomechanical standpoint.

    If you want to be safe, squat like a powerlifter, butt out and back heavily arched with the knees pushed out. In the guys I train with, the wrist is the main thing that has a tendency to be frequently injured, all our guys have great knees, great backs and I'm the only one with shoulder issues at all (which go away when I stop doing bodybuilding shoulder exercises, go figure)
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    Quote Originally Posted by exnihilo
    I'm the only one with shoulder issues at all (which go away when I stop doing bodybuilding shoulder exercises, go figure)
    damn powerlifters
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    Quote Originally Posted by exnihilo
    Ass to the grass squats will place significant load on your patella tendon. This is usually a bad thing... Also, squats where your knees come out past your toes are asking for trouble, from a biomechanical standpoint.

    If you want to be safe, squat like a powerlifter, butt out and back heavily arched with the knees pushed out. In the guys I train with, the wrist is the main thing that has a tendency to be frequently injured, all our guys have great knees, great backs and I'm the only one with shoulder issues at all (which go away when I stop doing bodybuilding shoulder exercises, go figure)
    ok im going to be burned alive then shot for posting something john berardi has written (i dont like alot of his nutritional stuff, but im pretty new to the science of weight lifiting, and he seems ok at that )
    but.....

    Myth #1: The Knee Shall Never Cross The Line Of The Toe

    Every new trainer loves to spout this one off as a display of his or her biomechanical knowledge. They constantly scour the gym-goers movements on a noble quest to ensure patellar safety across the land. Unfortunately this unsubstantiated notion is perpetuated and accepted as fact in gyms everywhere. These are the same trainers that allow a gross deviation of the patella to the medial or lateral aspect during an exercise (the knee pointing a different direction than the foot), which actually is dangerous and degenerative.

    If one were to assess knee injuries in athletic (read as: sport) environments, it becomes apparent that a high percentage of patellar trauma cases are sustained while the knee is beyond the all-sacred toe-line. In a misguided attempt to avoid knee injuries, the exercise community has therefore made this knee position taboo. In reality, the opposite reaction would have been preferential. Since this knee position is unavoidable in sports, or even in everyday life (try walking up or down stairs or a hill without your knee crossing your toe line) the proper way to prevent injuries is to strengthen the musculature around the joint by allowing the knee to travel into the “unsafe? zone in a controlled environment.

    All joints contain feedback mechanisms inside the connective tissue and joint capsules called proprioceptors. These communicate with your nervous system to tell your brain what position your joint is at. This is how you can close your eyes and be aware of exactly what angle all of your joints are at without actually seeing them. To simplify a complicated issue, the more time you spend with your knee past your toe-line, the more you teach your nervous system to activate the protective soft tissue around the joint therefore PREVENTING injury during athletic situations (Supertraining, Siff & Verkoshansky, 1993). Close your eyes and think of a highly succesful strength coach. Yep, he agrees. Somehow, this news just doesn’t buy column space in Muscle and Fatness.

    So remember this - the “golden rule? that the knee should never cross the line of the toe during any type of lunging exercise should be buried in the ocean with the lost city of Atlantis. (Of course, if this position causes consistent pain, then you should avoid this particular variation of the exercise).

    Myth #2: Full Squats (below parallel) Are Bad For The Knees

    More squat myths?!?

    We’ve all heard it, if you dip below parallel during a squat, your kneecap will blow off and land in the front desk girl’s mocha latte. Well it just ain’t true! What’s that, you need a little more evidence? Ok boys and girls, its time for today’s episode of Fun With Musculoskeletal Anatomy.

    The knee has four main protective ligaments that keep the femur from displacing on the tibia (ACL, PCL, MCL, LCL). These four ligaments are most effective at their protection during full extension and full flexion. Full extension would be when you are standing; full flexion would be when there is no daylight between your hamstring and your calf. When the knee is at 90 degrees of flexion (the halfway point), these four ligaments are almost completely lax and cannot exert much if any of a protective force at the knee (Zatsiorsky V. Kinematics of human motion. 1998 - published by Human Kinetics - p.301).

    Unfortunately, the position where the protective ligaments of the knee are not doing any protecting is the common recommended stopping point of a squat. Therefore, as it as it turns out, this is the exact worst place you could reverse the motion under load.

    If flexibility allows (heels staying planted, torso not flexing forward past 45 degrees), then a full squat where you lower yourself all the way to the ground is far safer on the knees than the traditional half squat. Guess what joint angle most leg extension machines start at? If you said 90 degrees, give yourself a pat on your healthy knee. This makes a full squat even safer than a leg extension machine (Wilk K et al. A comparison of tibiofemoral joint forces and electromyographic activity during open and closed kinetic chain exercises. Am J Sports Med; 24(4):518-527).

    So am I telling you never to do parallel squats? No! Am I saying that you’ll injure yourself on a parallel squat? No, again! What I’m trying to do is simply make an argument for the safety of full squats, thereby relegating squat myth #2 to the fiery pits of hades.
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    Quote Originally Posted by taffer
    ok im going to be burned alive then shot for posting something john berardi has written (i dont like alot of his nutritional stuff, but im pretty new to the science of weight lifiting, and he seems ok at that )
    but.....
    He's doing the same thing he does for nutrition in exercise training, taking two pieces of valid science and drawing a hair-brained conclusion from it.

    There are a number of things mr. berardi doesn't take into account, for instance the fact that the muscular/skeletal leverage at the bottom of a deep squat is at its lowest, and the majority of the reversal strength in deep squats comes from elastic tension built up in stretching muscles - of course, this energy is lost with any sort of real pause in all but elite athletes, and as a result in order to effectively get out of the bottom of such a squat most lifters will use a ballistic reversal. Compound with this the destabilizing effect of putting large amounts of tension on supporting ligaments in the fully stretched position - they have very little elasticity.

    In regards to the reference to Siff, in a sport where the knees will frequently be put in a dangerous position, it is in the athlete's best interest to train that range of motion (I would argue with moderate weights and in a non ballistic or even partially isometric way) in a controlled manner to avoid damage in uncontrolled circumstances. In this case the destabilizing effect is probably outweighed by the injury prevention effect - Siff was nothing if not a pragmatist.

    I wish berardi would stop trying to make these huge "discoveries" to when the research really isn't there, I realize he wants to make a name for himself but it just makes him look like an ass.
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    (Floating around somewhere) there is an excellent article on box squats. Those are good in any case, but they will also be easier for your friend to do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exnihilo
    He's doing the same thing he does for nutrition in exercise training, taking two pieces of valid science and drawing a hair-brained conclusion from it.

    There are a number of things mr. berardi doesn't take into account, for instance the fact that the muscular/skeletal leverage at the bottom of a deep squat is at its lowest, and the majority of the reversal strength in deep squats comes from elastic tension built up in stretching muscles - of course, this energy is lost with any sort of real pause in all but elite athletes, and as a result in order to effectively get out of the bottom of such a squat most lifters will use a ballistic reversal. Compound with this the destabilizing effect of putting large amounts of tension on supporting ligaments in the fully stretched position - they have very little elasticity.

    In regards to the reference to Siff, in a sport where the knees will frequently be put in a dangerous position, it is in the athlete's best interest to train that range of motion (I would argue with moderate weights and in a non ballistic or even partially isometric way) in a controlled manner to avoid damage in uncontrolled circumstances. In this case the destabilizing effect is probably outweighed by the injury prevention effect - Siff was nothing if not a pragmatist.

    I wish berardi would stop trying to make these huge "discoveries" to when the research really isn't there, I realize he wants to make a name for himself but it just makes him look like an ass.
    1. If you stop too early it actually puts more tension on your knees than if you go low.
    2. To not have your knees go passed your toes is an old wives tale and at 6"1" it would make my squats into half squats.
    There is nothing wrong with low squats and any squats are going to put the same kind of stress on your knees but in a different way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foster
    1. If you stop too early it actually puts more tension on your knees than if you go low.
    2. To not have your knees go passed your toes is an old wives tale and at 6"1" it would make my squats into half squats.
    There is nothing wrong with low squats and any squats are going to put the same kind of stress on your knees but in a different way.
    *shrug* olympic style squat 700 and tell me how your knees feel bro. When you have completely stretched out the stabilizing ligaments of your knees and you suffer from chronic pain I'll explain the nuances of a low bar powerlifter style squats and show you how to use supportive gear, and we'll get you lifting again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exnihilo
    Ass to the grass squats will place significant load on your patella tendon....)
    I disagree.

    2 Ariel, B.G., 1974. Biomechanical analysis of the knee joint during deep knee bends with a heavy load. Biomechanics. IV(1):44-52.

    There are several schools of thought on squat depth. Many misinformed individuals caution against squatting below parallel, stating that this is hazardous to the knees. Nothing could be further from the truth. (2) Stopping at or above parallel places direct stress on the knees, whereas a deep squat will transfer the load to the hips,(3) which are capable of handling a greater amount of force than the knees should ever be exposed to. Studies have shown that the squat produces lower peak tibeo-femoral(stress at the knee joint) compressive force than both the leg press and the leg extension.(4) For functional strength, one should descend as deeply as possible, and under control. (yes, certain individuals can squat in a ballistic manner, but they are the exception rather than the rule). The further a lifter descends, the more the hamstrings are recruited, and proper squatting displays nearly twice the hamstring involvement of the leg press or leg extension. (5,6) and as one of the functions of the hamstring is to protect the patella tendon (the primary tendon involved in knee extension) during knee extension through a concurrent firing process, the greatest degree of hamstring recruitment should provide the greatest degree of protection to the knee joint. (7) When one is a powerlifter, the top surface of the legs at the hip joint must descend to a point below the top surface of the legs at the knee joint.

    Knee injuries are one of the most commonly stated problems that come from squatting, however, this is usually stated by those who do not know how to squat. A properly performed squat will appropriately load the knee joint, which improves congruity by increasing the compressive forces at the knee joint. (8,(9) which improves stability, protecting the knee against shear forces. As part of a long-term exercise program, the squat, like other exercises, will lead to increased collagen turnover and hypertrophy of ligaments. (10,11) At least one study has shown that international caliber weightlifters and powerlifters experience less clinical or symptomatic arthritis. (12) Other critics of the squat have stated that it decreases the stability of the knees, yet nothing could be further from the truth. Studies have shown that the squat will increase knee stability by reducing joint laxity, as well as decrease anterior-posterior laxity and translation. (13,14) The squat is, in fact, being used as a rehabilitation exercise for many types of knee injuries, including ACL repair. (15)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strateg0s
    (Floating around somewhere) there is an excellent article on box squats. Those are good in any case, but they will also be easier for your friend to do.
    Bump to this. I love box squats. They've replace my legpresses.
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    *shrug* this is one area where science (edit: available scientific data) doesn't seem to be completely adequate to me. There is a high incidence of knee injuries in olympic weight lifters compared with powerlifters, if you think it's something besides their style of squatting that's fine, just be careful testing that hypothesis...

    Of course, olympic weight lifters do have a lower incidence of back injuries, so I guess it's give and take. The deadlift is a rough movement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exnihilo
    *shrug* this is one area where science (edit: available scientific data) doesn't seem to be completely adequate to me. There is a high incidence of knee injuries in olympic weight lifters compared with powerlifters, if you think it's something besides their style of squatting that's fine, just be careful testing that hypothesis...

    Of course, olympic weight lifters do have a lower incidence of back injuries, so I guess it's give and take. The deadlift is a rough movement.
    I was recommended this method of squatting by a powerlifter with an 800+lb squat at the age of ~50 And, since I was skeptical I had a few other PLers etc say that it was good advice. But, to each his own right? I just know that my knees have been WAY better and stronger since I started squatting like that. My knees used to kill when squatting and even hurt to walk.
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