Flat Barbell Bench Press Is It Mostly Just Ego?

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    I've performed ME bench press with a strained RC (possible minor tear) with no pain by performing it correctly.
    Jim claims that even with an already messed up shoulder he feels no pain at all because he's utilizing proper form.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Number one reason why bench press wrecks shoulders is bad form. I've been there and experienced it.
    I used to bench with incorrect form, had bad shoulders couldnt even bench much more then 225lbs.
    Took 6 months off to heal and I changed my form completely.I went to a power lifting style set up. Now I can normally bench 350 for reps and push over 400 for reps when Im training harder I just dont do it often. Just a note, I do deload for few months sometimes. When I diet down I usually dont bench more than 225. THis way I avoid injuries and have had no shoulder problems.
    If you bench with correct form there should be zero pressure on the shoulders or very little at most.
    As far as ego is concerned, I admit when I was younger I was into that but now is more about making progress and gains. I need to bench a certain weight to move forward it seems. If I can bench light and make gains I would but those days are gone. I have to go a bit heavier on my compound exercises to build more mass.

    If you want to research or talk about proper form look into power lifting rather than bodybuilding. I have seen many bodybuilders with bad bench form. Im not saying they all do but a good number do.
    And this whole post. He used to have bad shoulders from benching with poor form. Now with proper form his shoulders are better and he can bench 400 pounds.
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  3. If you learn to carry the weight in your lats as opposed to your shoulders, you will greatly reduce the chance of shoulder injury. Not eliminate it, but reduce it. I used to lose weights from shoulder pain due to flared elbows, now I don't. Tuck your elbows and touch at the xyphoid or a little lower and your shoulders will feel better.
    Training log:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/240172-herders-2014-log.html

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post

    You mean the training injuries he incurred before he went to Westside and had his entire technique and training overhauled? His shoulders and pecs were beat to hell from doing elbows flared, BB'ing style benching.
    Fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by jiggero View Post

    Jim claims that even with an already messed up shoulder he feels no pain at all because he's utilizing proper form.
    Yes.

    My injury (which I have no issues with currently) is from my military service and jumping out of airplanes. Not bench pressing. It's only an issue when I fail to tuck my elbows properly.

  5. "A big mistake I made was that I never really left bodybuilding training behind. Despite being a "powerlifter," I was benching like a bodybuilder: elbows flared, no leg drive, and wondering why I couldn't bench for **** and blew a pec in the process."

    Dave Tate Link: http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...werlifting&cr=

    Also, just another thing that came to my mind when reading this thread is there is a major difference with the powerlifting vs. bodybuilding. Powerlifting has a risk vs reward that probably goes through every powerlifter's head. A good example of this is when Donnie Thompson got a disc injury doing deficit deads with a rounded back and said "I knew better. I was pulling with a rounded back and it got me." Should we say "don't listen to him about deads? I digress.

    My main point is you can't compare the two. Saying that "you shouldn't learn to bench from Dave Tate because he hurt his shoulders" is like saying you shouldn't learn to pitch a baseball from Roy Halladay because he is having shoulder surgery, you shouldn't learn to be a running back from Adrian Peterson because he got an ACL injury, etc. I'm sure I could google many more but I hope this makes the point. You could learn from it, just don't take the risks if it isn't your sport.

    This is only in response to the "mostly ego" part. It is mostly ego if you risk form for weight. As far as hypertrophy...well you could probably look at bodybuilders with the biggest chests and their thoughts. Probably gonna be a combination of exercises including some sort or barbell and DB work as they both have their place.
    Training Log
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/271254-what-aw-hell.html
    "Jackie Treehorn treats objects like woman man."
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by jiggero View Post
    Flat barbell bench press just stresses the shoulders more than any other chest exercise. . Your biggest argument this whole thread was if you use proper form then you won't have shoulder problems. .Now Dave Tate who teaches people how to use proper form.. one could say a professor of proper bench form had to stop powerliftng because he totally recked his shoulders. . Why then won't you then admit a little defeat instead of trying to change your argument around?

    Flat bench stresses the shoulder more than other chest exercises when you dont perform the exercise properly. If you build all the satelite muscles along with proper form this wont be the case. If you believe that DBs are better then go for it no need to keep rambling about it forever really!
    Im not sure who Dave Tate is to be honest so im not sure why you have a hard on for him but that's your perogative..lol
    So your argument is that if this Dave guy even with proper form had shoulder problems then it makes it ok to bench like an ass in the gym and approve your way of thinking....why not just accept the fact you dont know how to bench properly it would be the right thing to do and im sure there are folks on this forum who can give you some pointers of how to improve your bench set up
    Obviously there are some of us who do not have shoulder problems stemming from benching with a flat barbell so your theory is bogus.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by rob112 View Post
    "A big mistake I made was that I never really left bodybuilding training behind. Despite being a "powerlifter," I was benching like a bodybuilder: elbows flared, no leg drive, and wondering why I couldn't bench for **** and blew a pec in the process."

    Dave Tate Link: http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...werlifting&cr=

    Also, just another thing that came to my mind when reading this thread is there is a major difference with the powerlifting vs. bodybuilding. Powerlifting has a risk vs reward that probably goes through every powerlifter's head. A good example of this is when Donnie Thompson got a disc injury doing deficit deads with a rounded back and said "I knew better. I was pulling with a rounded back and it got me." Should we say "don't listen to him about deads? I digress.

    My main point is you can't compare the two. Saying that "you shouldn't learn to bench from Dave Tate because he hurt his shoulders" is like saying you shouldn't learn to pitch a baseball from Roy Halladay because he is having shoulder surgery, you shouldn't learn to be a running back from Adrian Peterson because he got an ACL injury, etc. I'm sure I could google many more but I hope this makes the point. You could learn from it, just don't take the risks if it isn't your sport.

    This is only in response to the "mostly ego" part. It is mostly ego if you risk form for weight. As far as hypertrophy...well you could probably look at bodybuilders with the biggest chests and their thoughts. Probably gonna be a combination of exercises including some sort or barbell and DB work as they both have their place.
    Only problem with that is the form he tries teaching people isn't optimal for bodybuilding, the OP didn't seem like he was into powerlifting. so that form doesn't sound like it's going ot be the best way to reach the goals he mentioned in the beginning.

    Again theres better exercises than the bench press for what I believe the OP is looking for, why spend countless months learning a powerlifting form when bodybuilding is the key objective....you'll waste precious months of progress for something that will be less than optimal
    Mind and Muscle Rep, mindandmuscle.com
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  8. Quote Originally Posted by Young Gotti View Post
    Only problem with that is the form he tries teaching people isn't optimal for bodybuilding, the OP didn't seem like he was into powerlifting. so that form doesn't sound like it's going ot be the best way to reach the goals he mentioned in the beginning.

    Again theres better exercises than the bench press for what I believe the OP is looking for, why spend countless months learning a powerlifting form when bodybuilding is the key objective....you'll waste precious months of progress for something that will be less than optimal
    I was referring more to a post about how his shoulder issues make him unqualified. I do think if you are gonna bench, do it right. If you are not gonna, that is fine too. I personally don't know if their is a "best ever hypertrophy exercise for chest." It would make sense that DB's would be great because the greater stretch would cause more micro tears...but at the same time the overload wouldn't be as great. Interesting convo non the less.
    Training Log
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    "Jackie Treehorn treats objects like woman man."

  9. In terms of hypertrophy, I would imagine DBs would be a better option. Beacause of the fixed grip with a BB, I would assume there's a greater amount of horizontal flexion allowed with DBs. That's still not to say that a BB Bench is simply an ego lift what so ever and, as stated 100x, when done properly your shoulders will be spared

  10. Quote Originally Posted by rob112 View Post
    I was referring more to a post about how his shoulder issues make him unqualified. I do think if you are gonna bench, do it right. If you are not gonna, that is fine too. I personally don't know if their is a "best ever hypertrophy exercise for chest." It would make sense that DB's would be great because the greater stretch would cause more micro tears...but at the same time the overload wouldn't be as great. Interesting convo non the less.
    yeah i think i read it and bolded the wrong part...my fault, but i don't know if its as easy as saying the form being discussed is the end all be all for proper bench form, like anything ppl will use different forms for specifics results and what works for one will not for everyone

    its very interesting to hear different opinions....i'm more on the side of bodybuilders as i think powerlifting form is strictly for one thing and thats the form that will lift the most weight....but i'm more into shaping my muscles and i don't believe that form works very well.... the powerlifting form is great for what it is

    i've posted this before but:

    Best For Overall Chest Mass: Dumbbell Bench PressRecent research from Las Vegas based StrengthPro Inc., headed by David Sandler, MS, CSCS, showed that the dumbbell bench press involves the front delts far less than the barbell bench press, since the arms come out to the sides more with dumbbells. Less delt involvement means more pec stimulation, which is exactly what you want for maximal chest development.
    Mind and Muscle Rep, mindandmuscle.com
    Selling APS, LG, Liquid Labs, Iforce, ALRI, and HI Tech products
    use code: bktee at checkout for a free t-shirt

  11. Yeah but at the top of the movement with DB's, even touching them together, has more of a downward force than a squeezing together force. That's why I say cables FTW since there is dominant pec force throughout the entire movement.

  12. I'm not at all surprised this turned into a PL vs BB pissing match of sorts.
    Don't worry, man, someday I'ma be nobody too.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by threeFs View Post
    Yeah but at the top of the movement with DB's, even touching them together, has more of a downward force than a squeezing together force. That's why I say cables FTW since there is dominant pec force throughout the entire movement.
    im in on this too. no science backing me whatsoever. but i just feel like cables are dominant in pec contraction. decline chest press machine too.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Swanson52 View Post
    I'm not at all surprised this turned into a PL vs BB pissing match of sorts.
    It shouldn't be a competition, though. While there were a lot of questions asked, I think most of them are about bodybuilding. I think our points about good form on the bench have been made, but basically if he wants to not touch the flat bench press ever again that's his prerogative and he could definitely make the most gains he'd ever make using things other than flat bench press. Hell, flat bench press isn't even in most of the programs that people using DC training use, including Olympian 212's runner-up Dave Henry.
    Check your form: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/exercise-science/190675-proper-techniques.html
    Log: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/235436-tossing-weight-torobestia.html

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Torobestia View Post
    It shouldn't be a competition, though. While there were a lot of questions asked, I think most of them are about bodybuilding. I think our points about good form on the bench have been made, but basically if he wants to not touch the flat bench press ever again that's his prerogative and he could definitely make the most gains he'd ever make using things other than flat bench press. Hell, flat bench press isn't even in most of the programs that people using DC training use, including Olympian 212's runner-up Dave Henry.
    Yeah Dante is absolutely anti-flat bench.

    My thoughts on flat bench fall on both sides; as a PL I love it, but not because it shows of bad ass chest strength. For us, it's a TEST of functionality, and multiple system strength. I don't use flat bench to get a stronger chest, either.

    Weighted Dips, incline DB FTW.
    Don't worry, man, someday I'ma be nobody too.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by Swanson52 View Post
    I'm not at all surprised this turned into a PL vs BB pissing match of sorts.

    i don't know if it's a pissing match....its more about what the OP is interested in which would help make the answers easier

    it depends on if he likes powerlifting then the form being discussed and bench press are more important....if it's bodybuilding, then that form and flat bench aren't as useful and theres better options out there for size and shape...like u stated dips, dorian yates loved decline movements as well
    Mind and Muscle Rep, mindandmuscle.com
    Selling APS, LG, Liquid Labs, Iforce, ALRI, and HI Tech products
    use code: bktee at checkout for a free t-shirt

  17. Quote Originally Posted by Young Gotti View Post

    Best For Overall Chest Mass: Dumbbell Bench PressRecent research from Las Vegas based StrengthPro Inc., headed by David Sandler, MS, CSCS, showed that the dumbbell bench press involves the front delts far less than the barbell bench press, since the arms come out to the sides more with dumbbells. Less delt involvement means more pec stimulation, which is exactly what you want for maximal chest development.
    This I agree with completely. Builds plenty of mass on the chest with less delt involvement. Which means less chance of having to need surgery to repair a tear of the Labrum or Rotator Cuff.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by rob112 View Post
    Saying that "you shouldn't learn to bench from Dave Tate because he hurt his shoulders" is like saying you shouldn't learn to pitch a baseball from Roy Halladay because he is having shoulder surgery, you shouldn't learn to be a running back from Adrian Peterson because he got an ACL injury, etc.
    Don't learn how to play basketball from Kevin Ware HAHAHA

    I have found that decline bench has been way better on my shoulders than flat. The way I can set my back on the bench feels better. I'm trying to move this into flat but to no avail
    I don't go lift, I don't go workout, I don't go train....I go get sexy....sexy as fwuark!!!!!!!!!

  19. some people might ding flat bench

  20. Quote Originally Posted by mariscal View Post
    some people might ding flat bench
    ????????

  21. Quote Originally Posted by tigerdb2 View Post
    The bench press is still an effective exercise for developing the chest, anterior deltas and triceps. Is it right for everyone? Not those with shoulder issues, no.
    With my shoulder issues , i prefer to use the Smith machine, and it works well, much to the chagrin of my gym broscience PhDs
    MEM->DCA->PHL->MEM

  22. Quote Originally Posted by Invycktus View Post
    With my shoulder issues , i prefer to use the Smith machine, and it works well, much to the chagrin of my gym broscience PhDs
    Ah man. I feel like I was just trapped into advocating the smith machine! What kind of shoulder issues are you dealing with because I can't say I am a proponent of the unnatural movement patterns that the smith machine forces

  23. Quote Originally Posted by Invycktus View Post
    With my shoulder issues , i prefer to use the Smith machine, and it works well, much to the chagrin of my gym broscience PhDs
    using the smith machine and thinking its better is broscience. even thinking that shows you have a lot of education you need to get things right.


    you can argue all you want, but you are not arguing against me. you will be arguing against facs. and to define fact:
    1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.
    2. something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact.

    3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true:
    you can call me "ozzie" for short.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by tigerdb2 View Post
    Ah man. I feel like I was just trapped into advocating the smith machine! What kind of shoulder issues are you dealing with because I can't say I am a proponent of the unnatural movement patterns that the smith machine forces
    It was a joke pal!
    MEM->DCA->PHL->MEM

  25. Quote Originally Posted by asooneyeonig View Post
    using the smith machine and thinking its better is broscience. even thinking that shows you have a lot of education you need to get things right.


    you can argue all you want, but you are not arguing against me. you will be arguing against facs. and to define fact:
    1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.
    2. something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact.

    3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true:

    Lighten up man! It was a joke!
    MEM->DCA->PHL->MEM

  26. If you must really know my .02, I am not a fan of the Flat BB press, i prefer the DB to it, gives me much better results.

    Also some folks like my brother in law, have shoulder issues which kind of makes it difficult for them to lift the BB in the first place, so they may choose a different option.

    I am not an advocate of either, rather indifferent, but dissing one for piping up the other, is borderline broscience because it assumes one size fits all. You can never with all your degrees and education etc predict what sort of shoulder issues anyone who uses DB or Smith or BB actually has. Its about knowing what works for you.

    Overall I am aware that BB is better, and Smith works better for isolation work (iirc Coop said this)
    MEM->DCA->PHL->MEM

  27. the best way to get better at the flat bench is to do flat bench.

  28. Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    Just do the exercise correctly and there won't be shoulder injury.
    For the most part; yeah. Some people though due to joint dysfunction, connective tissue disorders or other congenital issues with their anatomy are predisposed to injury there and don't know it until they've tried something hard enough.
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