Whats up with the short set amount?

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    Whats up with the short set amount?


    I have been looking for a new routine and I having been looking at people routines on this board and everyone seems to being doing 2-3 sets per exercise. What happened to doing 5-6 sets per exercise? Is this an outdated concept or something?

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    it usually leads to overtraining, i don't do more than 9 sets per workout, usually 8 (not counting warm up sets of course)
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    how can you gain off so little? I do eight sets in like a half and hour. IF i lifted a half and hour three or fours days a week, I would not only gain nothing, but I think I would get weaker.
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    Have you tried it or are you just assuming it wouldn't work for you?
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    Have to agree. Less sets BUT maximized effort.

    I do approximately 18 sets a week 6 - 12 reps.



    Here is some info about Dogg Crapp workouts

    EDIT: I want to make sure that people realize these are from Dogg Crapp a VERY knowlegable bro. If you have not heard of him just do a search of Dogg Crapp on ANY search engine. His program is followed by TONS of guys including professional bodybuilders.


    I am NOT saying it is the best program for you. I am also NOT here to try and convince you to follow his program, I REALLY don't have the time or inclination to do that because the smaller you are the bigger I look . I know it works for ME if you don't like it and you are getting good results for yourself that is GREAT and I wish you continued success.



    training is all about adaption--in simple terms you lift a weight and your muscle has one of 2 choices--either tear completely under the load (which is incredibly rare and what we dont want)or the muscle lifts the weight and protects itself by remodeling and getting bigger to protect itself against the load (next time). If the weight gets heavier--the muscle has to again remodel and get bigger again to handle it. You can superset, superslow, giant set, pre exhaust all day long but the infinite adaption is load---meaning heavier and heavier weights is the only infinite thing you can do in your training. Intensity is finite. Volume is finite (or infinite if you want to do 9000 sets per bodypart)...everything else is finite. The Load is infinite and heavier and heavier weights used(I DONT GIVE A **** WHAT SOME BUCK 58 POUND GURU SAYS)will make the biggest bodybuilder. (add high protein, glutamine and drugs to the mix and you have one large person

    ok back to my training concepts--Ive stated how my whole goal is to continually get stronger on key exercises=getting continually bigger. I will state this, the method I am about to describe is what I have found that makes people grow at the absolutely fastest rate possible and why I am being inundated down in this area to train people. Its going to go against the grain but I'm making people grow about 2 and a half times as fast the normal rate so bear with me.

    A typical workout for the masses is (lets use chest for an example) doing a bodypart once every 7 days (once a week)and sometimes even once every 9 days or more. This concept came to the front due to recovery reasoning and I agree with most typical workouts your going to need a great deal of recovery.

    Heres the problem---lets say you train chest once a week for a year and you hypothetically gain 1/64 of an inch in pectoral thickness from each workout. At the end of the year you should be at 52/64 ( or 13/16 ). Almost an inch of thickness (pretty good).

    To build muscle we are trying to lift at a high enough intensity and load to grow muscle but with enough recovery so the muscle remodels and grows. The problem is everyone is loading up on the volume end of training and its taking away from the recovery part of it.
    You can train in a way so you can train chest 3 times every nine days and you will recover and grow faster than ever. If you train chest 3 times in 9 days you are now doing chest roughly 136 times a year! So instead of 52 growth phases you are now getting 136 growth phases a year. I personally would rather grow 136 times a year than 52. At a hypothetical 1/64th of an inch per workout you are now at 136/64 (or roughly 2.1 inches of thickness). So now your growing at roughly 2 and a half times as fast as normal people who are doing modern day workouts are. Most people train chest with 3 to 4 exercises and wait the 7-9 days to recover and that is one growth phase. I use the same 3 to 4 exercises but do chest 3 times during those 9 days and get 3 growth phases. Everyone knows a muscle either contracts or doesnt--you cannot isolate a certain part of it (you can get into positions that present better mechanical advantages though that put a focus on certain deep muscle fibers)--for example incline presses vs flat presses. One huge mistake beginning bodybuilders make is they have a "must" principle instilled in them. They feel they "must" do this exercise and that exercise and this many sets or they wont grow. GOOD GOD THIS IS VERY HARD TO EXPLAIN BY TYPING IT ALL OUT ON A MESSAGE BOARD
    how I set bodybuilders workouts up is I have them pick either their 3 favorite exercises for each bodypart or better yet the exercises they feel will bring up their weaknessess the most. For me my chest exercises are high incline smythe machine press, hammer seated flat press and slight incline smythe press with hands very very wide----this is because I look at my physique and I feel my problem area is upper and outer pecs---that is my focus.

    I set up the program like this
    DAY ONE
    CHEST
    SHOULDERS
    TRICEPS
    BACK WIDTH
    BACK THICKNESS

    DAY TWO
    BICEPS
    FOREARMS
    CALVES
    HAMSTRINGS
    QUADS

    DAY THREE OFF

    DAY FOUR-REPEAT CHEST DAY ONE AND SEQUENCE BUT WITH TOTAL DIFFERENT EXERCISES

    DAY FIVE-REPEAT DAY TWO AND SEQUENCE WITH TOTAL DIFFERENT EXERCISES

    DAY SIX OFF

    DAY SEVEN-REPEAT DAY ONE AND SEQUENCE WITH TOTAL DIFFERENT EXERCISES THAN DAY ONE AND FOUR

    DAY EIGHT --REPEAT DAY TWO AND SEQUENCE WITH TOTAL DIFFERENT EXERCISES THEN DAY TWO AND FIVE

    Stay with me here--Your only doing one exercise per muscle group per day. Your doing your first favorite exercise for chest on day one--your doing your second favorite exercise for chest on day four and your third exercise for chest on day seven. Your doing the same exercises you would be doing anyway in a weeks time and training chest 3 times in that week(or nine days) with minimal sets so you can recover. You cannot do a 3-5 exercise chest workout and recover to train chest again 3 days later. Absolutely impossible!! You can come in and do 2-3 warmup sets up to your heaviest set and then do one working set (rest paused) all out balls to the wall on that exercise --recover and grow and be ready again 3 days later.

    Example Day one
    first exercise smythe incline presses (ill use the weights i use for example)
    135 for warmup for 12--185 for 8 warmup--225 for 6-8 warmup-----then 375 for 8 reps to total absolute failure (then 12-15 deep breaths) 375 for 2-4 reps to total absolute failure (then 12-15 deep breaths) 375 for 1-3 reps to absolute total failure (then a 20-30 second static hold) DONE!--thats it 375lbs for 8+4+3= 375 for 15 reps rest paused..... next week I go for 385 (again rest paused)-----directly after that rest pause set I go to extreme stretching flyes as described earlier in this post and thats it for chest and on to shoulders, triceps and back........the next day I come in to do chest would be day 4 and i would do hammer flat presses in the same rest paused manner (and then extreme stretching again)---the next day i come in to do chest is day seven and I would do my third favorite exercise rest paused and then the cycle repeats. Three chest workouts in nine days with low enough volume to recover in between workouts and high enough intensity and load to grow rapidly--my workouts last an hour--im doing one exercise for one all out balls to the wall rest pause set (i dont count warmups only the working set) ---so in simple terms I am using techniques with extreme high intensity(rest pause) which i feel make a persons strength go up as quickly as possible + low volume so i can (recover) as quickly as possible with as many growth phases (damage/remodel/recover)I can do in a years time --Before you disregard this because it is so utterly different, think it out ok ill hit more on this later...I have to go eat, im starving

    ironaddict:Yeah, Yeah, Yeah! Sounds great if you are a genetic FREAK. What if you don't recover that fast? (I don't). Three times in nine days KILLS me, and many others with less than perfect recovery ability (read that most BB's and PL'ers). Give me something that works for the masses, yes, most people on this board. Actually, I'm not looking for a thing, I train Westside Barbell Modified. But MOST people will SEROIUSLY overtrain with a pounding like this!

    doggcrapp: im far from a genetic freak---far from it---how can you not recover 3 days later from one set of incline benching? one set!! including the stretching which helps the recovery immensely...im talking a total of 5 working sets in a workout. If i did 12 sets per bodypart in no way possible would i ever be able to recover, I would be in traction. Per bodypart I'm talking warming up and then one hard set rest paused --one set! Thats 3 hard sets every nine days for chest--if someone cant recover from that I would be amazed.

    OK, I'll eat some crow, I do tend to skim sometimes as I frequent and post on a few boards. Yes, this is a reasonable workoout and should work well for most. The frequency is still a little too much for me but most people can no doubt profit from it. I've done a lot of H.I.T. routines where I only slammed a BP with one BALLS TO THE WALL set and was still sore from it 96 hours later. I admit that I skimmed and took a look at the frequency and went NO ****ING WAY, but yes, that is a very reasonable routine for most people. Now good luck on convincing people one set can be enough. We both know most people are mesmerized by the **** they read in the BB mags and truly beleive that they must do 9-20 sets per BP with 3 or 4 different excercises. What they ignore is that the intensity is to low and the volume to high for any real growth to occur. Good routine DC, great seeing people that validate my training beliefs. Getting stronger on the basic compound movements is waht it's about

    iron addict said:Now good luck on convincing people one set can be enough. We both know most people are mesmerized by the **** they read in the BB mags and truly beleive that they must do 9-20 sets per BP with 3 or 4 different excercises. What they ignore is that the intensity is to low and the volume to high for any real growth to occur

    Doggcrapp: that is about the truest statement Ive ever read.......I find myself irritated when I see people say "genetics"--its amazing to me that at 19 I was 6 foot and 137lbs (yes 137) and eating 6 meals a day and people would laugh at me the stickboy trying to be a bodybuilder. I seriously did not miss a meal for my first 3 and a half years, I would set my alarm at 2am and wake up and eat scrambled eggs and pancakes if I missed a meal during the day. Two years later I looked "normal" at 196lbs or so. Two years just to look like a normal person! I kept bombing away, eating and not taking no as an answer and now I am up at 300lbs and people say "you must of always been big" and genetics. Thats tough for me to hear thinking how psyched I was to weigh more than 170 at one point. Ive only trained one true mesomorph. Mesomorphs dont need trainers usually. I train ectomorphs and endomorphs. The last 3 people Ive trained have been a pudgey mexican who was 172 (now 258lbs hard)--a skinny marine, and a guy stuck at 188lbs for many years (now 260). These people all thought the same thing seeing how my workouts were set up-"am i doing enough?"--If you can show someone how to train so hard that they realize they were holding back tremendously during their 8-20 set workouts, thats half the battle. The other half is making them realize how impossible it is to do 8-20 sets per bodypart if you truly truly train balls to the wall hard. Personally if I do a 20 rep hack squat with slag iron heavy weights....at 10 reps I am seriously doubting I am going to make it---at 14 reps im seeing colors---at 17 reps im asking god for help--and the last 3 reps are life, death, or rigor mortis---I know for a fact that there is no way in hell I could do another 4-5 sets of hacks like that. I gave everything I had right there on that set. If I can do another 4-5 sets like that Im cruising at 70% at the most. Basically Im trying to get people to grow 136 times a year instead of 52, with the one working set per bodypart every 3 days and the stretching.

    anomynous said:My view on training is that anything will work for a while, within reason and barring exeptional circumstances. I believe things must be changed--cycled, if you must use that term--and that no training style will "work" if it is continuously applied.

    Doggcrapp:I disagree strongly on that. No matter what the method someone uses to gain super strength gains-its imperiative they do so. If you put someone out on a deserted island with 135lbs of weights he can superset, giant set, high rep, superslow etc etc squats, deadlifts and benches to his hearts delight...the sad story is his gains will quickly come to a halt because his limiting factor is amount of strength he will gain. He has 135lbs to work with. You take that same guy on a deserted island and give him squats deadlifts, and benches and an unlimited weight supply that he constantly pushes-- In 5 years i'll show you a big Gilligan.
    I think the biggest fallacy in bodybuilding is "changing up" "keeping the body off balance"--you can keep the body off balance by always using techniques or methods that give your body a reason to get bigger=strength. If you dont write down your weights and every time you come into the gym you go by feel and do a different workout (like 98% of the gym members who never change do now) what has that done? Lets say Mr gym member does 235 for 9 on the bench press this week, "tries to keep his body guessing" by doing 80lbs for 13 on flyes next week, 205 for 11 on inclines the week after, 245 on hammer press for 12 the week after that --and so on---there is only a limited number of exercises you can do. Two months later when he does bench presses again and does 235 for 8 or 9 has he gained anything--absolutely not. Four months later he does hammer presses for 245 for 11 (again) do you think he has given his body any reason to change?
    Take 2 twins and have one do a max squat for 20 reps and the other twin giant set 4 leg exercises with the same weight. All year long have the first twin blast away until he brings his squat for 20 reps from 150 to 400lbs. Have the second twin giant set four exercises every workout with the same weight he used in his first workout all year long. Believe me he is going to be sore and he will be shocking the body every time but he will not gain **** after about the third leg workout. Because the load didnt change. There is no reason for his legs to grow in size due to the strength demand presented. The first twin who can now squat 400 for 20 is going to have some wheels. I use rest pause because in my opinion it is the utmost method to rapidly gain strength. Others might like a different method--thats up to them, doesnt matter as long as they are rapidly gaining strength. I try to bring someone through the shortest but intense workout they can to produce rapid strength increases--use glutamine, extreme stretching and 3 days for recovery, and then try to make them grow again. If your gaining appreciable strength on an exercise with a certain method I think the ABSOLUTELY WORSE THING YOU CAN DO is to change up right then. Take that exercise and method to its strength limit and then when you get there then change to a different exercise (and maybe method) and get strong as f#cking hell on that one too.

    Doggcrapp: Mondo I find 9.5 out of 10 times that someone stops gaining its his diet that is the problem. Eight out of 10 times that same lifter wrongly thinks he is overtraining or his workouts are off. The other 2 out of 10 times that person thinks his supplements or 'juice' is the problem. I keep trying to brainwash people SUPPLY AND DEMAND, SUPPLY AND DEMAND--if you can make a demand (hard enough training) you can meet the supply (abundance of protein grams). I love when people come to me with this problem of not making gains anymore and they go thru this intricate workout, supplement, and sauce fix and all i say is "double the serving size on all your protein drinks and make sure the post workout drink is 100grams at least." Boom! they take off gaining again. I know you don't know me from adam but trust me on this one. Food (protein) is your anabolic. Anyone in this forum who is at a true stalemate, I ask you to try 500 grams a day of protien for 6 months and then come back in here and tell me what you look like. Training is the engine, food (protein) is the gasoline and juice is the Nitrous oxide system. Mondo i would say hit 2 grams per lb of bodyweight that you want to be=500grams. That could be about 200-250 in protein drink grams and you can easily eat the rest
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    crowler--16 sets a week total? or per body part.
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    CROWLER
    Good theories but you apply them badly. Trust me on this, if you're pushing your squats as hard as you can you won't be able to do it 3 times in a week. We have found that squating is so taxing on the entire body that we always take the day after off. If you don't beleive it try benching the day after you squat, if you don't see your bench hurting then I can honestly say that you're not pushing your squats.

    Second. If you get 1/64" after a workout with a weeks rest you say that if you triple it you can get 156/64" in year, or something like that. I'll go one better, do it every day and you can get 365/64" a year. Your reasoning is simply flawed.

    I believe you also said that intensity is finite but weight is infinite. As you increase weight, you increase intensity so wouldn't intensity be infinite?
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    Quote Originally Posted by UNDERTAKER
    crowler--16 sets a week total? or per body part.

    about 18 sets a week total.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skoal
    CROWLER
    Good theories but you apply them badly. Trust me on this, if you're pushing your squats as hard as you can you won't be able to do it 3 times in a week. We have found that squating is so taxing on the entire body that we always take the day after off. If you don't beleive it try benching the day after you squat, if you don't see your bench hurting then I can honestly say that you're not pushing your squats.

    Second. If you get 1/64" after a workout with a weeks rest you say that if you triple it you can get 156/64" in year, or something like that. I'll go one better, do it every day and you can get 365/64" a year. Your reasoning is simply flawed.

    I believe you also said that intensity is finite but weight is infinite. As you increase weight, you increase intensity so wouldn't intensity be infinite?
    LOL

    I think there is a misunderstanding here.

    That was Dogg Crapp's workout routine. I want to make sure I give him FULL credit since I just copied and pasted from HIM.

    I take if you have never heard of him?

    WHERE do you see someone advocating doing legs 3 times a week?
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    I do 2 ME workouts and 2 DE workouts per week, I just started adding extra workouts back in since I stopped dieting. I like to do very high rep squats and deadlifts, or high rep dumbell pressing motions and back work the day after I do a max effort or dynamic effort day, with about a minute rest between sets. Increases my level of GPP and work capacity, has positive calorie partitioning effects, makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside (or was it warm and queasy? ).
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    I follow the DC & IA protocol for training for the most part. Max effort for fewer sets and more rest time in between sets - but each exercise doesn't follow the same rep range. I also incorporate rest pause techniques. I do about 18-20 sets total each week and focus on increasing weight continuously or reps until I reach a certain rep range then I increase weight again. If you can add a 2 lbs per left or 2 reps every or everyother time you do a certain lift through the course of the year you have some pretty substancial progess. If you don't already keep a log I suggest doing so, it helps A TON. Having a reference point each time you try to increase the weight used or reps completed is then that much easier
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    For 4 years, I would train one body part a day, with a bazillion sets, once every week, just like the mags say. I couldn't figure out why I wasn't getting stronger. I couldn't get my bench over 225 and my legs were weak at ****. Not only that, by Wednesday, I had no motivation to get back to the gym cause I felt whooped.

    It wasn't until I switched up did I start making some progress:
    Monday - Lower body
    Tuesday - off
    Wednesday - Upper body
    Thursday - Off
    Friday - Lower body
    Saturday - Upper body
    Sunday - off

    I would do 2 multi-joint movements per body part (eg. chest - flat bench, close grip bench). Warm up, then 3 working sets. Hit the last set to failure. Do one assitance movement for the smaller groups with 2 working sets to failure (hammer curls, skull crusher). On the second workout of the week, switch up the movement (eg. chest - decline, incline).

    In about 14 months I gained about 15 lbs and I had pr's of:
    bench 300,
    squat 385 (rockbottom)
    deadlift 485.
    Body weight - 175 lbs

    I am out of the gym in less than 1.5 hours and I am always motivated for the next training day. I had about a 2 year layoff and lost a boat load of body weight. I did a 4 week PH cycle with this training scheme and I am back to where I was before in 5 weeks. (The squats and deadlift strength is a bit lacking, but I dont want to blow out my spine just yet ). On a training note, I was recovering so fast, I was doing upper, lower, off, upper, lower, off, upper, lower, off. Bench weight was going up 10 lbs on the last set every 3 days! Bench has slowed since PCT, but still going up 5 lbs a week.

    I will never go back to the "mag" training style...
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    Someone needs to blow up FLEX and muscle and fitness, seriously...
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    Quote Originally Posted by skoal
    I believe you also said that intensity is finite but weight is infinite. As you increase weight, you increase intensity so wouldn't intensity be infinite?
    crowler already replied; but you're wrong about intensity being infinite...

    increasing weight does not increase intensity in this context or any other context
    increasing weight increases load... intensity is a completely seperate variable... you can do very light weight for incredible rep ranges and bust yourself to failure eventually and thats still high intensity (but very low load)

    DoggCrapp's routine works very well; though like any other static program, its not a be-all end-all... The body will eventually adapt to this modified HIT routine. I do agree however, that one needs to continuously increase load over time... if you're not getting stronger, chances are you arent getting bigger... weight gain is something you cant work with that well; you can only eat and train right and hope it packs on... but you can bust your ass to make sure you lifted more than your previous workout...
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    I'm all about progressively increasing the volume in a wave loading pattern.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bean
    crowler already replied; but you're wrong about intensity being infinite...

    increasing weight does not increase intensity in this context or any other context
    increasing weight increases load... intensity is a completely seperate variable... you can do very light weight for incredible rep ranges and bust yourself to failure eventually and thats still high intensity (but very low load)
    If you increase the amount of weight lifted without changing any other variable, such as distance or time, you will increase intensity. It requires a stronger contraction to lift 200 pounds then it does 100 pounds. And lifting a light weight over a long period of time is low intensity. Instensity and duration are inversely proportional.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CROWLER
    LOL

    I think there is a misunderstanding here.

    That was Dogg Crapp's workout routine. I want to make sure I give him FULL credit since I just copied and pasted from HIM.

    I take if you have never heard of him?

    WHERE do you see someone advocating doing legs 3 times a week?
    My apologies. Yes, let's give credit, or blame where it is due.
    As for the second part I copied this from the post:
    DAY ONE
    CHEST
    SHOULDERS
    TRICEPS
    BACK WIDTH
    BACK THICKNESS

    DAY TWO
    BICEPS
    FOREARMS
    CALVES
    HAMSTRINGS
    QUADS

    DAY THREE OFF

    DAY FOUR-REPEAT CHEST DAY ONE AND SEQUENCE BUT WITH TOTAL DIFFERENT EXERCISES

    DAY FIVE-REPEAT DAY TWO AND SEQUENCE WITH TOTAL DIFFERENT EXERCISES

    DAY SIX OFF

    DAY SEVEN-REPEAT DAY ONE AND SEQUENCE WITH TOTAL DIFFERENT EXERCISES THAN DAY ONE AND FOUR

    DAY EIGHT --REPEAT DAY TWO AND SEQUENCE WITH TOTAL DIFFERENT EXERCISES THEN DAY TWO AND FIVE

    So that is 3 leg workouts every 8 days (days 2, 5 and 8), close to 3 times a week.
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    The way I see it is Intensity is the "Effort" that you put into lifting a weight. If you are lifting 100lbs for 10 reps but could go 20 then that is not intense. If you bump up the weight to 125 for 10 reps but could still go to 15 reps then again you would not be increasing intensity. however if you are lifting 100 lbs for 20 reps and the last rep is a positive failure then that is very intense.

    So just increasing weight does not necessarly increase intensity.

    SR
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    18 set in a week? I do more than that in one day
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    I am looking to do a new schedule since I have been doing the same one for about 2 years. It is hard to leave something that has worked so well for you but the gains have just stopped. I am actually thinking of doing it like this...Chest and Shold on monday....back and BI on tuesday...wedensday off...thursday chest and shold again but with different lifts and then friday legs and Bi....I feel I can hit chest and shold 2 times a week but I am going to try just going 1 on back and legs...see how it goes..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stingray
    The way I see it is Intensity is the "Effort" that you put into lifting a weight. If you are lifting 100lbs for 10 reps but could go 20 then that is not intense. If you bump up the weight to 125 for 10 reps but could still go to 15 reps then again you would not be increasing intensity. however if you are lifting 100 lbs for 20 reps and the last rep is a positive failure then that is very intense.

    So just increasing weight does not necessarly increase intensity.

    SR
    I think your example is making my point. Remeber, I said keeping everything else the same, increasing weight increase intensity. So doing 125 for ten reps is higher intensity then doing 100 for ten. While effort and intesity are related, they are not the same thing. If you ran as intensly as you possibly could you wouldn't do it for very long. This was the whole basis for Mentzer's Heavey Duty. He clearly states that anything of maximum effort will be of short duration and makes a very eloquent arguement to prove this.
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    I think some of you guys are confused about using the term intensity. If you do a set and get 10 reps your intensity is not high. When a coach or trainer is talking about levels of intensity they are reffering to the percentage of weight lifted. The highest intensity would be to do only 1 rep maxes or negatives. So most bodybuilding routines are low intensity.
  

  
 

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