[LunaHotel]

Meathead, no matter how young you are, no matter how much testosterone your balls put out naturally, no matter what your genetics are, there is no way that a 2 hour session is OPTIMAL.

Take it or leave it, and that from a guy who enjoys the higher-volume workouts. Much higher than most guys on this board. And this style is a reason why I am so weak for my size - or big for my strength. But what you are doing isn't productive. FYI I go for 30 sets in 45 minutes. That's my highest volume workout. Of course, I do alternate with lower-volume periods too.

The way you are progressing with that kind of training, you've got Mr. Olympia 2015's genetics. Don't waste your best years of natural growth on a counterproductive routine. Grow big, grow strong and yes, grow smart.

[exnihilo]

I spend 2 hours in the gym on weekends on ME days. But the first hour is mostly warmups, and sitting around waiting for my spot in the rotation again. After I hit a max I probably spend about 30-45 minutes doing heavy assistance work... I drink a large protein+carb shake before and during the workout to maintain energy levels.

The actual volume of max effort training work and failure work I do is pretty low, I do a ****load of sub-maximal work however.

[skoal]

An hour of warm-ups seem a tad excessive. You should be able to warm-up in 15 minutes. Add that to 45 mintes and you're out in an hour. What effect do you get from the ****load of sub-maximal work?

[exnihilo]

An hour of warm-ups seem a tad excessive. You should be able to warm-up in 15 minutes. Add that to 45 mintes and you're out in an hour. What effect do you get from the ****load of sub-maximal work?

Technique, technique, technique, technique, technique I can't stress that enough... Most guys will trash their bodies before they ever hit anywhere near 500lbs on a bench or 700lbs on a squat because their technique is stressing parts of the body that aren't well adapted to handle such massive weights. A friend of mine pec benches about the same weight I put up in a power style bench with a small arch, and has torn his pec tendon twice, thrown his shoulder out many times, etc. I got tendonitis in both shoulders before I mastered proper bench technique, now everything is peachy and I'm putting up sick weights.

People think a bench press is a simple motion, those people never bench very much You wouldn't hit the bag 20-30 times and call it a boxing workout would you?

[meathead1987]

At the momant, I am not liking UD2 at all. The depletion days are great, but I dont really like the carbup.

I may start this split(with lower volume) as part of my cut. I'll keep this thread updated with my progress.

I will probably periodize it somehow, starting low volume, then building up to somewhere near that volume.

To start with, I will keep workouts to 1hr.

[skoal]

Technique, technique, technique, technique, technique I can't stress that enough... Most guys will trash their bodies before they ever hit anywhere near 500lbs on a bench or 700lbs on a squat because their technique is stressing parts of the body that aren't well adapted to handle such massive weights. A friend of mine pec benches about the same weight I put up in a power style bench with a small arch, and has torn his pec tendon twice, thrown his shoulder out many times, etc. I got tendonitis in both shoulders before I mastered proper bench technique, now everything is peachy and I'm putting up sick weights.

People think a bench press is a simple motion, those people never bench very much You wouldn't hit the bag 20-30 times and call it a boxing workout would you?

If you're training for a max bench, who cares what you can do 30 times? So the boxing analogy really doesn't work and it fails to meet specificity. For a max bench you need to train heavy, not just to develop the muscle power to move the poundage but to train your nervous system to handle the weight.

You should always use good form, but that doesn't require an hour of warm up.

[exnihilo]

You misunderstood the boxing analogy. When you are hitting the bag you are training your nervous system to be more efficient at a specific movement - less agonist activation on the way down, less of the antagonists on the way up, with an explosive reversal off the chest (or pausing if you're in a shirt). Most bodybuilders don't really understand perfect technique as it applies to powerlifting, there's more to it than what the lift looks like - there is a complicated sequence of contraction and relaxation of muscles that goes on that I'm still slowly mastering, a way to hold yourself on the bench, how you push off with the feet, the arch of the back, how you angle your elbows, even the way you grip the bar. You will pick it up a lot faster if you do 300+ submaximal lifts with perfect form than if you do 50 lifts with perfect form and submaximal weights.

[skoal]

You will pick it up a lot faster if you do 300+ submaximal lifts with perfect form than if you do 50 lifts with perfect form and submaximal weights.

I think based on your last sentence we are arguing the same point. Most people have good form with the light weights, it's the heavy weights that turn them into a contortionist. You need to practice good technique under strain to improve. It's that stress that trains the nervous system.

I think we did get a little off the subject here. But I do believe that heavy weights, low reps, low sets is the best general approach. But there may be times to change to meet a particular need for some sports.

[Grim Repper]

In the last decade I've trained myself and others, I've always tried to learn things along the way. What is true, is that although everyone differs, there are indeed constants. I believe, as many here have said, that brief intense workouts with adequate rest and nutrition will bring optimal gains. In fact, this is pretty much fact. You can work out hard, or you can work out long. But, you can't do both. Think about this: You do 4 sets of bench press to failure. Now, if you had to do only two sets to failure, you could use more weight on each set. More weight = more overload + rest and recovery = greater gains. The end. So, why would you want to put 25% of your total effort into four sets rather than 50% of everything you have into two sets? There are a million reasons to cut the volume and not too many applications in which to increase it. Neither me or any trainees I've worked with have gained in the ways we did when we kept it brief and ungodly intense. Get in, get working and get home and rest. I think you've gotten great advice from the folks here who have later on probably said 'Damn, why did I waste so much time?'.
Whatever you decide, good luck!
GR

[exnihilo]

In the last decade I've trained myself and others, I've always tried to learn things along the way. What is true, is that although everyone differs, there are indeed constants. I believe, as many here have said, that brief intense workouts with adequate rest and nutrition will bring optimal gains. In fact, this is pretty much fact. You can work out hard, or you can work out long. But, you can't do both. Think about this: You do 4 sets of bench press to failure. Now, if you had to do only two sets to failure, you could use more weight on each set. More weight = more overload + rest and recovery = greater gains. The end. So, why would you want to put 25% of your total effort into four sets rather than 50% of everything you have into two sets? There are a million reasons to cut the volume and not too many applications in which to increase it. Neither me or any trainees I've worked with have gained in the ways we did when we kept it brief and ungodly intense. Get in, get working and get home and rest. I think you've gotten great advice from the folks here who have later on probably said 'Damn, why did I waste so much time?'.
Whatever you decide, good luck!
GR

To each his own. The only thing HIT style training has ever really exceeded training with moderate volumes on me is injury rate...

[Grim Repper]

To each his own. The only thing HIT style training has ever really exceeded training with moderate volumes on me is injury rate...

Well, I can definitely agree heavy training ALL of the time would potentially cause systemic breakdown leading to strains, sprains, tears, etc. The key though is periodization so that each new cycle has you starting with slightly less poundages to create momentum/conditioning for gaining. Plus warmups with acclimations are key as well. And whatever anyone decides, they shouldn't for heaven's sake pound their bodies with heavy weight for months on end at anytime! Cycles!

[skoal]

Take a look at powerlifters. They train heavy most of the time but it isn't always the same lift. For example, you can back off on your full squats for a couple of weeks and hammer partial squats or box squats. Most of the really good deadlifters I know won't even deadlift a good part of the year.

I'll be the first to admit it isn't always easy. Once you start loading all those 45's on the bar, it's an ego boast to see people stop and watch. But you have to keep your eye on the big picture. People will also stop and stare when you come in with your arm in a sling.

[Sgt. Ownage]

Yes, I have, But I prefer the idea of conjugate periodization over the linear style. I am interesed in both strength and size. I dont think HST is appropriate for that.

The do CP...you will get strength and size...

[exnihilo]

Take a look at powerlifters. They train heavy most of the time but it isn't always the same lift. For example, you can back off on your full squats for a couple of weeks and hammer partial squats or box squats. Most of the really good deadlifters I know won't even deadlift a good part of the year.

I'll be the first to admit it isn't always easy. Once you start loading all those 45's on the bar, it's an ego boast to see people stop and watch. But you have to keep your eye on the big picture. People will also stop and stare when you come in with your arm in a sling.

Heh, I like that arm in a sling statement.

The main thing that differentiates HIT style stuff from powerlifting/westside style training (well, in regards to failure, they're night and day pretty much every other way) is that we might go for one PR a week, or two if we feel good, and we avoid any sort of forced negatives, supersets, etc. So, compare maybe 2 failed attempts at a 1rm a week in rotating lifts, with assistance work at a fairly low "intensity" but moderate-high volume, to mentzer/yatesesque supersets with forced supersetted forced negatives and all sorts of other craziness...

In the group of guys I lift with the only injury in the last 9 months or so has been one of our benchers getting tweaked wrists from a 640 bench in a meet Train safe and all that...

[LunaHotel]

and the one by skoal also.

Geez it's good to see I'm not the only one who's smart around here

Seriously though, I see so MANY guys bench the bar to their collarbones instead of their nipples. Isn't that absolutely horrendous form? Well I feel it is, and by reading some of your posts, I think I will find a powerlifting club somewhere and learn to better my heaviest lift techniques. Seriously, I think even with 10 years training and reading experience, a guy who benches 500lbs naturally can teach me something I don't know. See, I'm modest too...

Oh, and have any of you guys ever heard that thing about high insulin = no cortisol before? I didn't know that and tried finding a study in medline, to no avail.

[exnihilo]

and the one by skoal also.

Geez it's good to see I'm not the only one who's smart around here

Seriously though, I see so MANY guys bench the bar to their collarbones instead of their nipples. Isn't that absolutely horrendous form? Well I feel it is, and by reading some of your posts, I think I will find a powerlifting club somewhere and learn to better my heaviest lift techniques. Seriously, I think even with 10 years training and reading experience, a guy who benches 500lbs naturally can teach me something I don't know. See, I'm modest too...

Oh, and have any of you guys ever heard that thing about high insulin = no cortisol before? I didn't know that and tried finding a study in medline, to no avail.

Bring the bar to your nipples? HAR! I'm working on my arch and set up, so I can bring it near my bellybutton In all fairness though, as you put on bench shirts your groove goes lower and lower, esp when you get to open back denim, which just rips your groove down low.

Start training with some hardcore powerlifters, it will without a doubt-no-questions-asked be the best thing you ever did for yourself (at least on the weight training side of things). Those monster monkey ****ers will make you stronger than you thought possible, reduce your injury rate, and turn you into a raving psycho They'll also try to force feed you at all you can eat buffets after working out ("So my old shirt will fit you guy, otherwise it'll be too loose!" "come on, eat, you have a girly waist")

All in all a great bunch of guys to hook up with, if you find serious real-deal powerlifters.

[LunaHotel]

Dude : you put "nipple" and "bellybutton" in the same post, which makes the net-nanny here at work go bonkers. Can't read half the posts in the exercise/training section because we use dirty words such as "inner thigh" "calf" "chest"... These computer people are insane I tell you...

But thanks for the advice, I found a way to ge to the end of your post. I think I'mma do just that...

[LakeMountD]

I agree with what glenihan has been saying. I see you are also working your lower back quite a bit. I have noticed lower back to be one of the slowest recovering muscles in the body. I don't think it is necessary to train it twice a week. In fact I do deadlifts once every other week and improve DRAMATICALLY every other week that I do them. High volume can be great if you can get it right and get everything situated but by the descriptions that youve given its kind of vague.