Deadlift: lats, shoulders and traps interaction

[AutoKal47]

Sooooo, when you perform deadlift what muscles you focus on/voluntarily activate?

I'm specifically talking about the relation between lats, traps and shoulders because
while flickering around with different grip width and forms
I noticed I have two ways of doing it, obviously similar but different whether
I keep the shoulders low and "lose" so to overload the traps,
or if I activate the lats (which involves delts activation to some extent) and
less stress is put on the traps.

In both cases obviously tris are locked, back tight, look up etc etc..

I like to overload the traps, and I like to activate the lats (similar feeling
to when you post for lat spread so to speak), but I seems you can't get BOTH
because of the different shoulder position.

I'm sure experienced trainees will understand

whatcha say guys?

 

[napalm]

Sooooo, when you perform deadlift what muscles you focus on/voluntarily activate?

I'm specifically talking about the relation between lats, traps and shoulders because
while flickering around with different grip width and forms
I noticed I have two ways of doing it, obviously similar but different whether
I keep the shoulders low and "lose" so to overload the traps,
or if I activate the lats (which involves delts activation to some extent) and
less stress is put on the traps.

In both cases obviously tris are locked, back tight, look up etc etc..

I like to overload the traps, and I like to activate the lats (similar feeling
to when you post for lat spread so to speak), but I seems you can't get BOTH
because of the different shoulder position.

I'm sure experienced trainees will understand

whatcha say guys?

I focus on two things: "setting" the bar and my push off the floor. If I do these two things correctly, everything else takes care of itself. In my never humble opinion, nothing should be 'loose.'

 

[Rodja]

Lat involvement in the deadlift is highly overrated. If you want more trap involvement, then do a snatch-grip.

 

[AutoKal47]

Lat involvement in the deadlift is highly overrated. If you want more trap involvement, then do a snatch-grip.

That's also my impression, it feels heavier (in a better way) when overloading the traps instead
of contracting the lats, I mean I still keep 'em tight at the beginning of the movement but then..

As for the "lose" shoulders, that's why I put it in quotes, hard to describe but if you keep
the shoulder low you shift the load on the traps and if feels pretty awesome. If your back is tight
there's no risk, I didn't meant to keep 'em like you've been carried away by the bar lol

 

[Rodja]

That's also my impression, it feels heavier (in a better way) when overloading the traps instead
of contracting the lats, I mean I still keep 'em tight at the beginning of the movement but then..

As for the "lose" shoulders, that's why I put it in quotes, hard to describe but if you keep
the shoulder low you shift the load on the traps and if feels pretty awesome. If your back is tight
there's no risk, I didn't meant to keep 'em like you've been carried away by the bar lol

The rounded thoracic is something that is a personal preference. Tate teaches it this way for he conventional DL, but I personally got better pulls with a tight thoracic.

 

[napalm]

IMO, if your shoulders are 'low' one of two things is going on: either your back angle is too horizontal, or your hips are too low...both bad.

There's really only one position for shoulders at the start of the pull: slightly behind the bar. If they're 'low' it will put them in front of the bar. This = bad

 

[AutoKal47]

The rounded thoracic is something that is a personal preference. Tate teaches it this way for he conventional DL, but I personally got better pulls with a tight thoracic.

Yeah, Tate's way is what I'm talking about

IMO, if your shoulders are 'low' one of two things is going on: either your back angle is too horizontal, or your hips are too low...both bad.

There's really only one position for shoulders at the start of the pull: slightly behind the bar. If they're 'low' it will put them in front of the bar. This = bad

You're right but the low position comes later on, in the second half of the movement not right off the floor,
you don't start like that, hard to explain.. You start it normally and then let's say when you have the bar
about knee high (it might change according to body type, I have long a## arms and legs so I gotta watch out
for example for the bar not hitting my knee caps at the same time not to have it too far from the body)
you *purposely* shift the tension on the traps letting the shoulder low and you neck/head slightly back

 

[Rodja]

Yeah, Tate's way is what I'm talking about



You're right but the low position comes later on, in the second half of the movement not right off the floor,
you don't start like that, hard to explain.. You start it normally and then let's say when you have the bar
about knee high (it might change according to body type, I have long a## arms and legs so I gotta watch out
for example for the bar not hitting my knee caps at the same time not to have it too far from the body)
you *purposely* shift the tension on the traps letting the shoulder low and you neck/head slightly back

The knees shouldn't be over the bar at any point and if they shoot forward, then your hips/shoulders aren't in the proper position.

 

[napalm]

The knees shouldn't be over the bar at any point and if they shoot forward, then your hips/shoulders aren't in the proper position.

This, and if I'm understanding you correctly OP, "'low" shoulders = a longer pull, again bad...

 

[benmayro]

are you able to post a video

 

[AutoKal47]

The knees shouldn't be over the bar at any point and if they shoot forward, then your hips/shoulders aren't in the proper position.

This, and if I'm understanding you correctly OP, "'low" shoulders = a longer pull, again bad...

Yeah I agree, and they're not, I was just saying that I have long limbs and I have to pay even more attention
to the form because of that, a chambered bb would be much more comfortable for me in that regard

As for the longer pull, why bad? that's exactly what I like about it

 

[Rodja]

Yeah I agree, and they're not, I was just saying that I have long limbs and I have to pay even more attention
to the form because of that, a chambered bb would be much more comfortable for me in that regard

As for the longer pull, why bad? that's exactly what I like about it

I also have long arms and don't have to worry about hitting my knees because I dit back on my hips and pull the slack out of the bar. Longer pull=longer ROM=lower weight used.

 

[AutoKal47]

I also have long arms and don't have to worry about hitting my knees because I dit back on my hips and pull the slack out of the bar. Longer pull=longer ROM=lower weight used.

Yeah the problem is not much on having long arms more in having long legs
but anyway, I don't really have problems with that, I know how to work "around" my body

About the longer ROM, yes indeed, but I tried both and I seem to get much better
stimulation on the muscles in that way and the weight difference in not that much
so more often than not I'd rather sacrifice some lbs if I feel it more (as long as the form remains safe of course)

 

[napalm]

Yeah the problem is not much on having long arms more in having long legs
but anyway, I don't really have problems with that, I know how to work "around" my body

About the longer ROM, yes indeed, but I tried both and I seem to get much better
stimulation on the muscles in that way and the weight difference in not that much
so more often than not I'd rather sacrifice some lbs if I feel it more (as long as the form remains safe of course)

I'm really having trouble visualizing your finish with "loose" shoulders. In my mind I see you with shoulders rounded forward and your scapulas not retracted. I guarantee you your shoulder girdle does not like that.

Again, it's extremely important to have everything, and I mean everything tight from start to finish. If you could, humor me and put up a vid please.

 

[Frank Reynolds]

This, and if I'm understanding you correctly OP, "'low" shoulders = a longer pull, again bad...

Dropping the shoulders, actually reduces the length of the pull VS retracting them back. Watch KK pull, rounded upper back, and dropped/rolled shoulders.

I pull a lot more similar to that, because it is more natural for me.

 

[napalm]

Dropping the shoulders, actually reduces the length of the pull VS pulling them back. Watch KK pull, rounded upper back, and dropped/rolled shoulders.

I pull a lot more similar to that, because it is more natural for me.

Thanks for chiming in frank. When I say longer, I'm referring to starting with scapula retracted to finish with scapula retracted. Starting with rounded shoulders and finishing with retracted scapula is a longer ROM. In the APF, you'd get red flagged for rounded shoulders at the finish.

Good discussion topic

 

[Frank Reynolds]

Thanks for chiming in frank. When I say longer, I'm referring to starting with scapula retracted to finish with scapula retracted. Starting with rounded shoulders and finishing with retracted scapula is a longer ROM. In the APF, you'd get red flagged for rounded shoulders at the finish.

Good discussion topic

The shoulders can still be dropped at the top(while not rounded).

Unless we are talking about two different things, as I have never seen anyone get relighted for what I am referring to, and is the way Tate teaches it(ie, shoulders dropped).

 

[napalm]

The shoulders can still be dropped at the top(while not rounded).

Unless we are talking about two different things, as I have never seen anyone get relighted for what I am referring to, and is the way Tate teaches it(ie, shoulders dropped).

Yeah, I read that in the vault. I have a suspicion that the op is doing something different.

 

[AutoKal47]

Dropping the shoulders, actually reduces the length of the pull VS retracting them back. Watch KK pull, rounded upper back, and dropped/rolled shoulders.

I pull a lot more similar to that, because it is more natural for me.

Brother thank you for chiming in lol I didn't know how to word it differently.
Napalm, sorry i ain't posting vids, if you watch one of Tate's pull that's it.
"Dropped" - referring to the scapula - was the word I was missing
my attention was more on the lats vs shoulder&traps load and I was saying that personally
I like the latter better.
Also I've seen some people rolling the shoulder back at the top of the movement,
man that's bad..

 

[Frank Reynolds]

At 5:30 he'll start talking about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp8Sx9dX9LM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Kk