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thicker rounder shoulder movements?

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    thicker rounder shoulder movements?


    I already have pretty broad shoulders but I want them to look rounder and thicker from the side view. My normal routine goes something like

    Clean press or seat DB press 4 sets
    DB lat raise 4 sets
    Cable lat raise 3 sets till burn out
    Rear delt DB fly
    Face pulls

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    Quote Originally Posted by hugry4more View Post
    I already have pretty broad shoulders but I want them to look rounder and thicker from the side view. My normal routine goes something like

    Clean press or seat DB press 4 sets
    DB lat raise 4 sets
    Cable lat raise 3 sets till burn out
    Rear delt DB fly
    Face pulls
    Put the pressing movements at the end.
    Try higher reps for side and rear delts, push the blood into the delt so dont go as heavy as humanely possible and sacrifice form.

    Also continue to hammer the rear delts, they are such an important factor for good looking delts.
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    Why should I do pressing movements last?
    •   
       

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    Evan Centopani Does a Very Short Shoulder Workout in Pittsburgh

    The presses done about 1/2 way through the video similar to arnold presses but only with rotation to a neutral hand position at the bottom of the ROM. I trained up at Golds New Haven a few months ago when Evan was doing a seminar, middle of my workout Evan came over and started doing these presses next to me. So i asked what his reasonings were, he only had anecdotal observation for support but i do believe those delts speak for themselves. Been doing those presses myself since then as an addition to standard DB and have seen noticeable improvements. One note they need to be done much lighter then your normal press and should be done slow and deliberate, tension time has been key with these for me, huge pump!

    edit: grammer correction
    Last edited by NYiron; 07-20-2012 at 09:53 PM. Reason: grammer
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugry4more View Post
    Why should I do pressing movements last?
    I feel that by putting your pressing movements towards the end when your delts are already fatigued and full of blood you are able to use a lighter weight, which will save your joints and lower your risk of injury, but will also add variety and a different angle than what you do now. You also get a love of heavy presses when you do chest so i dont feel they are as important as some people make them out to be on shoulder day.

    You also asked for thicker and rounder delts from the side. Hammer those rear delts and ensure your getting enough blood to your side delts and i think you will be pleased with how they come along.
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    I think rear delts have almost as much affect on thickness as the side delts. I'd start training them first, then work your way from front to back as someone above me said.

    Here's a killer delt finisher: Do it for 4 sets with 30 seconds between sets and it will feel like someone is inflating your delts to the point of bursting!

    12 lateral raises
    12 rear delt flies
    12 front raises
    12 overhead presses

    Use the same weight for all of the exercises and for each set. Don't rest between the exercises. The first one should be easy, the 2nd difficult, and the 3rd and 4th should make you want to break my eye socket for recommending it to you
    Last edited by Doss; 07-21-2012 at 05:44 PM. Reason: Clarity
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    dude is ripped in the vid
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    Quote Originally Posted by hvactech
    dude is ripped in the vid
    Evan Centopani, he's an olympia competitor this year. Good guy too down to earth and knowledgeable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doss
    I think rear delts have almost as much affect on thickness as the side delts. I'd start training them first, then work your way from front to back as someone above me said.

    Here's a killer delt finisher: Do it for 4 sets with 30 seconds between sets and it will feel like someone is inflating your delts to the point of bursting!

    12 lateral raises
    12 rear delt flies
    12 front raises
    12 overhead presses

    Use the same weight for all of the exercises and for each set. Don't rest between the exercises. The first one should be easy, the 2nd difficult, and the 3rd and 4th should make you want to break my eye socket for recommending it to you
    Nice dude I like it. Ill put it at end of my next shoulder routine!?
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugry4more View Post
    Nice dude I like it. Ill put it at end of my next shoulder routine!?
    Let me know what you think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYiron View Post
    Evan Centopani Does a Very Short Shoulder Workout in Pittsburgh

    The presses done about 1/2 way through the video similar to arnold presses but only with rotation to a neutral hand position at the bottom of the ROM. I trained up at Golds New Haven a few months ago when Evan was doing a seminar, middle of my workout Evan came over and started doing these presses next to me. So i asked what his reasonings were, he only had anecdotal observation for support but i do believe those delts speak for themselves. Been doing those presses myself since then as an addition to standard DB and have seen noticeable improvements. One note they need to be done much lighter then your normal press and should be done slow and deliberate, tension time has been key with these for me, huge pump!

    edit: grammer correction
    This will actually put a lot less stress on the shoulder joint than typical presses with the elbows out to the side and the palms facing forward.

    My one suggestions would be to do them on less of an angle (more upright) such that you can finish with the upper arms aligned with your ears.

    And as Doss mentioned, focus on rear delts.

    Br
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3clipseGT View Post
    I feel that by putting your pressing movements towards the end when your delts are already fatigued and full of blood you are able to use a lighter weight, which will save your joints and lower your risk of injury, but will also add variety and a different angle than what you do now. You also get a love of heavy presses when you do chest so i dont feel they are as important as some people make them out to be on shoulder day.
    I have to argue the opposite.

    Doing raises prior to presses is going to place a higher level of recruitment on the triceps since the delts will be fatigued, resulting in less overload on the delts. This has been shown in EMG studies looking at pre-exhuast with flyes prior to chest presses, and I would venture to say a similar finding would occur in the case above.

    Also, its not just the weight that poses a risk for shoulder injuries. You must also take into consideration, and perhaps more crucial than load, the repetition volume. Lateral raises, especially when they are done with the palm down and taken above chest level result in impingement at the shoulder joint. Doing this over and over again will do two things: increase the risk for tendonitis, and fatigue the smaller rotator cuff/fixator muscles of the shoulder, causing a deviation movement mechanics when doing presses...which can be problematic.

    Br
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    This will actually put a lot less stress on the shoulder joint than typical presses with the elbows out to the side and the palms facing forward.

    My one suggestions would be to do them on less of an angle (more upright) such that you can finish with the upper arms aligned with your ears.

    And as Doss mentioned, focus on rear delts.

    Br
    Just curious, trying to work out the biomechanics as to how it would stress the GH, SC or AC joints less. There is still a high degree of loaded external rotation associated with this type of overhead press, and the biomechanics through initial concentric elevation and eccentric adduction should remain relatively the same. Most of the difference in the movement is in the orientation of the load, due to rotation at the proximal radioulnar joint.
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    Ah but I do see, upon closer inspection of the video, a slightly increased ability to internally rotate back to a more neutral GH orientation during the eccentric phase, at the bottom of the ROM, when the radioulnar rotation is at its peak for the motion. This i could see as a benefit to the joints involved.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYiron View Post
    Just curious, trying to work out the biomechanics as to how it would stress the GH, SC or AC joints less. There is still a high degree of loaded external rotation associated with this type of overhead press, and the biomechanics through initial concentric elevation and eccentric adduction should remain relatively the same. Most of the difference in the movement is in the orientation of the load, due to rotation at the proximal radioulnar joint.
    By less stress (maybe not the most exact phrase), I meant less impingement of the supraspinatus and biceps tendons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED

    By less stress (maybe not the most exact phrase), I meant less impingement of the supraspinatus and biceps tendons.
    That's what I was assuming you meant. I was just working it out for myself, sparked my intrigue when you said it would result in less stress. I had never thought of it before you pointed it out. Your mostly referring to the eccentric phase?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    I have to argue the opposite.

    Doing raises prior to presses is going to place a higher level of recruitment on the triceps since the delts will be fatigued, resulting in less overload on the delts. This has been shown in EMG studies looking at pre-exhuast with flyes prior to chest presses, and I would venture to say a similar finding would occur in the case above.

    Also, its not just the weight that poses a risk for shoulder injuries. You must also take into consideration, and perhaps more crucial than load, the repetition volume. Lateral raises, especially when they are done with the palm down and taken above chest level result in impingement at the shoulder joint. Doing this over and over again will do two things: increase the risk for tendonitis, and fatigue the smaller rotator cuff/fixator muscles of the shoulder, causing a deviation movement mechanics when doing presses...which can be problematic.

    Br
    Makes sense and i really appreciate the info. Were always learning and i definitely appreciate the information.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doss
    I think rear delts have almost as much affect on thickness as the side delts. I'd start training them first, then work your way from front to back as someone above me said.

    Here's a killer delt finisher: Do it for 4 sets with 30 seconds between sets and it will feel like someone is inflating your delts to the point of bursting!

    12 lateral raises
    12 rear delt flies
    12 front raises
    12 overhead presses

    Use the same weight for all of the exercises and for each set. Don't rest between the exercises. The first one should be easy, the 2nd difficult, and the 3rd and 4th should make you want to break my eye socket for recommending it to you
    What do u suggest then for the actual delt workout.. If this is just a finisher?
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    Name:  InclineLateralRaise2.jpg
Views: 172
Size:  18.6 KB

    I do this movement with a little less incline to close out shoulder workouts...when your shoulders are pumped, this just makes the side of shoulder look and feel like cannonballs
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYiron View Post
    That's what I was assuming you meant. I was just working it out for myself, sparked my intrigue when you said it would result in less stress. I had never thought of it before you pointed it out. Your mostly referring to the eccentric phase?
    Yes, I believe the eccentric, but definitely at the bottom of the ROM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    Yes, I believe the eccentric, but definitely at the bottom of the ROM.
    I definitely agree with you.
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    Try this workout out... I did it today and it killed me

    Shoulder Press (your choice)
    SS
    DB Side Raises - 4 sets

    Machine Side Raises - 4 sets

    DB Rear Delt Raises
    SS
    DB Fromt Raises - 4 sets

    Reverse Pec Dec - 4 sets

    Shrugs - 3-4 sets
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    I have to argue the opposite.

    Doing raises prior to presses is going to place a higher level of recruitment on the triceps since the delts will be fatigued, resulting in less overload on the delts. This has been shown in EMG studies looking at pre-exhuast with flyes prior to chest presses, and I would venture to say a similar finding would occur in the case above.

    Also, its not just the weight that poses a risk for shoulder injuries. You must also take into consideration, and perhaps more crucial than load, the repetition volume. Lateral raises, especially when they are done with the palm down and taken above chest level result in impingement at the shoulder joint. Doing this over and over again will do two things: increase the risk for tendonitis, and fatigue the smaller rotator cuff/fixator muscles of the shoulder, causing a deviation movement mechanics when doing presses...which can be problematic.

    Br
    Would you say that pre-fatiguing triceps before your shoulder workout could potentially be beneficial then so it puts more stress on your deltoid? Or could that just be leading further to injury?
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    Quote Originally Posted by broda View Post
    Would you say that pre-fatiguing triceps before your shoulder workout could potentially be beneficial then so it puts more stress on your deltoid? Or could that just be leading further to injury?
    Thats an interesting question. I haven't seen much research that looks at the effects or preloading the triceps on muscle recruitment during the over head press. Another option might be to prefatigue the lats.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    Another option might be to prefatigue the lats.
    I'd like to experiment with this. What were you thinking?
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    John meadows has some pretty innovative ideas when it comes to shoulder workouts. Google him and you should be able to find a few workouts he released for free.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doss View Post
    I'd like to experiment with this. What were you thinking?
    Try a few sets of shoulder extensions or neutral grip lat pull downs. You could superset it: 15 reps pull down 45 sec rest the shoulder press. Or, 3 straight sets of pull downs then presses.
  

  
 

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