Losing reps

[TheUnlikelyToad]

It seems to me I'm losing strenght (I guess) and I don't know why...not pounds... but a few reps here and there, at first I thought it was in my head, its been going on for a few weeks
and I've been eating like a horse lately eating some junk (McD's) which obviously is not always good either thinking that maybe I've needed to eat more. I'm kinda baffled, any insight?

 

[Beelzebub]

Perhaps the infamous "overtraining"? What's your routine look like? And elaborate a tad more on your diet, supps, sleep schedule, what kind of shoes your wear, etc.

 

[jweave23]

gonna need MUCH more info as beelzebub said. Any changes recently, total diet, supps, training style, etc.

 

[TheUnlikelyToad]

In short, I lift 5x a week... I been doing this for years and has worked. Can't really give much of a split as I change it as often as I can tho tha exercises are tha same. Currently is something like:

Chest/shoulders
Legs
--
Back/Bi
Chest/shoulders
--
Bi/ Tri maybe legs

I'm 5'7 a tad over 165 hopefully, about 13% bf.
Thing is I've been hovering over 165 now for what seems forever, I'm just stuck.
Only supps I'm taking on a regular basis is Swole V2, ALA, and Glucosamine/Chondro.
I'm getting btw 6-7 hours of sleep a night.

 

[TheUnlikelyToad]

A typical traditional workout would be:

Chest/Tri
Legs
--
Back/Bi
Shoulders
--
Repeat

Usually go for four sets with three excercises each day, rep range 8-10, if I can get 12 I bump weight...

 

[Beelzebub]

Well, I'm not too sure how your training program works for you but I can safely say your diet is jacked up if you've been the same weight for that long. I'd guess that's the main problem, if you're not gaining weight, you're not eating enough. Excluding the precise description of your diet so far, how many meals do you eat per day?

 

[TheUnlikelyToad]

Typical diet looks something like minus tha last two weeks of (2) double cheese burgers every second or third day at lunch:

Scoop Matrix 5.0 in milk, granola bar or bananna

2 turkey (3 slices each) and cheese sandwiches, granola bar

Scoop Matrix 5.0 in milk

1/4 chicken, side mac and cheese, cubed potatoes (swole V2)

--workout--

Scoop Matrix 5.0 and a bowl of Uncle Sams or Oats

(swole V2)

3 cups of milk before bed

 

[Manwhore]

My guess is,since you've been doing this for years and are now only 165,your 5 day/week program is not working. You don't need McDonalds and you don't need 5 days/week. Only my opinion of course

 

[TheUnlikelyToad]

My guess is,since you've been doing this for years and are now only 165,your 5 day/week program is not working. You don't need McDonalds and you don't need 5 days/week. Only my opinion of course

Ya... its my guess too, that's why I'm asking for help.

Would you like to contribute?

 

[Beelzebub]

Typical diet looks something like minus tha last two weeks of (2) double cheese burgers every second or third day at lunch:

Scoop Matrix 5.0 in milk, granola bar or bananna

2 turkey (3 slices each) and cheese sandwiches, granola bar

Scoop Matrix 5.0 in milk

1/4 chicken, side mac and cheese, cubed potatoes (swole V2)

--workout--

Scoop Matrix 5.0 and a bowl of Uncle Sams or Oats

(swole V2)

3 cups of milk before bed

looks like you're starving yourself and relying too much on whatever the hell scoop matrix 5.0 is. if the majority of your protein comes from shakes, you need to redo your diet.

 

[Beelzebub]

looks like it's pretty low fat. try more healthy fats as well. everytime you have a shake, throw some other **** in the blender with it like oatmeal, eggs, peanut butter, etc.

 

[TheUnlikelyToad]

Aye... figured tha protein shakes would get me into some trouble. Its just rough this semester interning 40 hours a week and not getting paid (not that I'm making excuses), just not quite sure how to go about fixing it at this point.

Matrix 5.0 is Syntrax new blend btw

 

[Manwhore]

A friend of mine had liver problems when using Protein shakes. I used to think high protein was the main cause like many others but it turns out it's the protein from the supplements that does it. Get some 93% chop meat rice and beens and make some real food. All those supplements will make you go broke

 

[Manwhore]

Typical diet looks something like minus tha last two weeks of (2) double cheese burgers every second or third day at lunch:

Scoop Matrix 5.0 in milk, granola bar or bananna

2 turkey (3 slices each) and cheese sandwiches, granola bar

Scoop Matrix 5.0 in milk

1/4 chicken, side mac and cheese, cubed potatoes (swole V2)

--workout--

Scoop Matrix 5.0 and a bowl of Uncle Sams or Oats

(swole V2)

3 cups of milk before bed

If your having trouble getting that little bit of food down then you better get some Primrose or something else for appetite

 

[stuart harlin]

Overtraining...PERIOD.

There is no question in my mind that you are overtraining/overtrained... you stated that you have been training five days a week for years and now your reps are diminishing... simple overtraining. More days off are what I recommend and perhaps a little more food, if you like to stay lean, but unquestionably the amount and intensity of your current training program has "burned out" your nervous system.
Your need to take a week or two off completely... go walking or light jogging during the time or just read up on overtraining syndrome. Your body is exhausted (simplified explanation) and now, even at your age, is beginning to regress. Please take heed of this advice...when you return to your training you will be much more enthusiastic, informed and willing to experiment with different bodybuilding approaches... Your need time to contemplate your current approach while your body recovers from years of stress...
I wish you the best.

 

[Gethuge]

I totally aggree with stuart on this one. Your routine and diet need an overhaul. Basically you need to take some time off, start over as if you were a beginner and re-evaluate your training theories and get some real food into you. First off, if you are changing your routine so much that you can't be sure what your routine is then you've fallen for the "muscle confusion/instinctive training" myth. Get yourself on, say, a three day a week routine with a reasonable volume and start eating. A little planning can go a long way in saving time and working around whatever work schedule you are on.

 

[jminis]

You need to increase two things here:
Rest
Food

 

[TheUnlikelyToad]

If your having trouble getting that little bit of food down then you better get some Primrose or something else for appetite

See its not even like that though, well to a point at least (will cover this later). Its just that I'm having a hard time finding TIME to eat. I'm a social worker interning at a state hospital and always on tha go. I don't even have my own office... I use my supervisor's. I'm lucky enough to get five mins to down a shake, which gets very old because my super is always bitching "What are you doin? You have to be up on Ward 310... YOU DONT HAVE TIME FOR THIS!"... whatever, but I can't tell her how I feel cuz this is for a grade, plus I never would anyways thats just how I am. If I'm not at tha hospital I'm in a van transporting patients to where ever they need be.

I guess what it boils down to is that I just need to take some time off number 1 (thanks for being polite stuart, appreciate that) and then start gorging myself when I get home, lol. Now back to tha appetite thing... as strange as it seems I am rarely ever hungery but like all good bodybuilders I force it down, never really all that enjoyable. But say I'm not eating enough, and haven't been.... why aren't I sub 10% bf by now, you'd thing I'd be at least losing weight, right? :think:


Oh yeah... thanks for tha replies

 

[TheUnlikelyToad]

I totally aggree with stuart on this one. Your routine and diet need an overhaul. Basically you need to take some time off, start over as if you were a beginner and re-evaluate your training theories and get some real food into you. First off, if you are changing your routine so much that you can't be sure what your routine is then you've fallen for the "muscle confusion/instinctive training" myth. Get yourself on, say, a three day a week routine with a reasonable volume and start eating. A little planning can go a long way in saving time and working around whatever work schedule you are on.

But what about periodization, that what I was/am trying to replicate... I been changing up about every 3 weeks to a month.


I should post some pics so ya'll don't think I'm retarded... well, I do have cerebral palsy but thats besides tha point.

In four years I've went from 120 on up, so I'm not your 'typical' noob, lol.

 

[Gethuge]

Periodization can come in many forms, some simple and some more complex. However, you should still be easily able to predict what you will doing 3 weeks from now, 2 months from now, etc. Personally, I would worry more about getting on a decent routine something like:

Monday: Back, Bis, abs
Wednesday: Chest, Shoulders, tris
Friday: Quads, hams, calves

Try going with, for example, 3 sets of just one exercise for each muscle group in the 6-8 rep range (or 4-6, something in the "low" end of the spectrum) then reduce the weight and go for one set of between 20-30 reps. The high rep set should be controlled but of a much faster pace than the low rep set. On such a routine you should be able to gain muscle mass, and strength for quite some time before needing to change things up again. I realize this is very basic advice and goes against much of what is preached to us about periodizing our training but you need to get a nice base program going before making things overly complicated.

Best of luck.
G

 

[Gethuge]

In four years I've went from 120 on up, so I'm not your 'typical' noob, lol.

Sorry if i sounded like i was bustin on ya bro. We all get a little off track at some point. Just trying to help steer things in the right direction.

 

[TheUnlikelyToad]

Nah... it was just a general statement to everyone as most who know, know me from Avant Labs

 

[TheUnlikelyToad]

say I'm not eating enough, and haven't been.... why aren't I sub 10% bf by now, you'd thing I'd be at least losing weight, right? :think:

Any thoughts?

 

[B5150]

Yeah...several.

Remember what you know about leptin? You may be stalled/plataued because your body is fighting catabolism and it won't give up fat, nor will it allow you to be gaining LBM because of leptin or metabolism downregualtion (no I don't know what I'm talking about )

Your not intentionally dieting but your diet is not ideal for LBM gains. Good clean carbs in a abundance on or just before the first day of your split. I workout in the very early AM. When I refeed (when dieting) or cheat meal (when bulking) I usualy do it at my last two meals of the day before the first day of my split (or in my case going to bed). This may not be long or abundant enough to trigger leptin (if dieting), but it is sufficient to saturate my glycogen store for a very intense workout the following morning (usually with 12 hours). So if you are very limited in time as you mentioned, make time once or twice a week to load up on clean carbs...your oatmeal concoction would be ideal.

Also, regarding your training. Your discipline is very commendable (I told you that already) but obsessiveness and discipline are not the same (told you this too). Being sober almost 33 months now, part of my therapy is bodybuilding. It is an alternative outlet that is productive both physically and mentally, but more so SPIRITUALLY. When I miss a training session (unintentionally) I do notice it as a void in my mental/spiritual routine and it does effect my day. But when I plan the days off I find that it is rejuevinating and revitalizing to me physically without the unintentional void. I plan for my SPIRITUAL excercise in a different way. BTW...my NIV is open on the work table in my garage gym

There is a fine line between obsessive behavior and discipline. If the activity that you practice continues to decrease in it's return, yet you continue to practice it, it may be an obsession and not dscipline that drives you. If you can schedule days off as part of your discipline you may find it to be more productive.

I usually train in 6 weeks blocks. Depending on my goals at the time I may take an extra 4-5 days off after a block of 6 weeks or so. I usually incorporate this as part of my periodization schedule as well. I also train 3 on 1 off regardless of day of the week. It eventually rolls around that my day off comes on a Saturday...I will sometimes take off on Sunday as well. I have never found it to be detrimental to achieving my goals. Give it a shot.

 

[TheUnlikelyToad]

...your oatmeal concoction would be ideal.

It's a good thing I know you... where did any mention of an 'oatmeal concoction' get mentioned in this thread? With all this religious ferver, people are gonna think you are some kinda prophet too.

I guess I've gotten trapped in that rut of 'Bigger, Stronger, Faster'... I mean even with you 3 on and 1 off, and I think gee... I only do 2 on, 1 off. If Brian is that old and he can do it, why can't I?... but I know, tha mind is a dangerous thing and its not as simple as do this, get this result. As with everything in life you must learn to play tha cards you are dealt and maximize tha roads traveled.

 

[B5150]

people are gonna think you are some kinda prophet too.

If Brian is that old and he can do it, why can't I?...

As with everything in life you must learn to play tha cards you are dealt and maximize tha roads traveled.

Jordan, some are afflicted mentally and some are afflicted physically. Regardless we are both afflicted in some way. We both know one anothers burdens to bear. It is in our weakness that we find our strength.

2 Corinthians 12:7-10
"And to keep me from being too elated by the abundance of revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to harass me, to keep me from being too elated. Three times I besought the Lord about this, that it should leave me; but he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." I will all the more gladly boast of my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities; for when I am weak, then I am strong."

 

[SJA]

Brian's old so just tune out his Alzheimer's gibberish....Leptin....catabolism....sheesh :rofl: :icon_lol:

OK...enough picking on the old bastard....I guess he may know a thing or two about this stuff :think:

Jordan. You are still very young and I both agree and disagree that you are over trained....let me explain.

I agree - you aren't eating enough cals to compensate for your stress levels and training. You are still young and should be able to handle this. But you aren't eating enough to build with...only to survive. You've hit the wall and your body is equilibrating LBM to fat. In order to do this it is purging muscle. I'm much older than you (even older than B) and rarely take a week off. I'm definitely what you would consider an overtraining freak......


I disagree - ......but what I find is that there are symptoms of this and just backing off a little for a week when I recognize them instead of taking the time off is enough for me....PROVIDED that I increase my cals....cleanly.....and mostly from carbs. You need to eat more and it has to come from real food. You need more "real" protein!!

The first thing that I'd recommend for you is to look for cheap sources of clean food.

Protein - find a bakery supply outfit and see if they will sell you bulk egg whites. I can get 30 pounds for $30. Pretty cheap.

Fat - regular eggs (yolks) in with egg whites, peanut butter.

Carbs - oatmeal from costco, red potatoes, brown rice (I got a 20 pound bag of this at Costco for $7).

I think that if you just take a couple days to recover (and by that I mean eat your ass off...cleanly) that you'll feel like a million bucks. Cook ahead of time so that you can scarf while that bitch is in the shitter. I'm sure that we've all been "closet eaters" at some point.....right? :thumbsup:


PS....egg whites with oatmeal cooked into patties covered with Splenda, cinnamon and SF syrup is DA BOMB!! You can bust down a pre-cooked meal of that **** faster than you could even mix a shake. Might simmer the fuse on that bitch's tampon. :whip:

 

[B5150]

Brian's old so just tune out his Alzheimer's

OK...enough picking on the old bastard....

I'm much older than you (even older than B)

Alright Focker...I have a whole lot less hair than you, so there :rasp:

 

[skoal]

Toad,
I think these guys have given you some good advice. Take a week or two off. Work in some good foods when you can, grab some beef jerky, it's quick to eat, high in protien and doesn't need to be kept cold. Most fruit comes in nice biodegradable wrapper (that means you can eat it). If you're getting more than 50% of your protien from supplements you really do need to rethink your diet.

When you get back in the gym, start with only a few sets per body part, except for back I never go over 7 sets.

Now get in there hit it hard and get out and rest. Soon you'll be putting the size one. And we don't want these guys to think us Pennsylvania boys are pussies.

 

[TheUnlikelyToad]

Setting aside tha science of tha body, has anyone seen Christian Bale in "The Machinist"?

Here is tha trailer:

http://www.apple.com/trailers/paramount_classics/the_machinist-clip.html

He had me on my butt laughing at tha end about not eating. How can he get that 'ripped' while I was hovering at 14% and wasn't dropping weight... I mean how does one actually cut then?

 

[former_SlimJim]

Setting aside tha science of tha body, has anyone seen Christian Bale in "The Machinist"?

Here is tha trailer:

http://www.apple.com/trailers/paramount_classics/the_machinist-clip.html

He had me on my butt laughing at tha end about not eating. How can he get that 'ripped' while I was hovering at 14% and wasn't dropping weight... I mean how does one actually cut then?

In order to cut, you have to reduce carbs, for some of us almost to zero, but keep the good fats and protein high. Also, you need cardio. It's that simple.

 

[DieTrying]

In order to cut, you have to reduce carbs, for some of us almost to zero, but keep the good fats and protein high.

Thats absurd. :nono:

Where did we all get so lost?

 

[former_SlimJim]

Thats absurd. :nono:

Where did we all get so lost?

Absurd? He's questioning, if everyone is saying his diet is so low, why isn't he losing weight? It's because a good part of his calories come from carbs. When the ratio of carbs are that high compared to fat and protein, it is hard to slim down - even when overall calories are greatly reduced. If he's maintaining his weight with 14% bf on that little bit of food, then he needs to reduce his carbs and add flax or canola oil and real protein to his diet.

 

[morfiend]

eat fewer calories.

lowering carbs = lowering calories so that will work

 

[TheUnlikelyToad]

LOL, I love it... I'm glad I'm not tha only crazy one.


AND to think I gave good advice over tha years... feck I don't even understand my own science project.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Absurd? He's questioning, if everyone is saying his diet is so low, why isn't he losing weight? It's because a good part of his calories come from carbs. When the ratio of carbs are that high compared to fat and protein, it is hard to slim down - even when overall calories are greatly reduced. If he's maintaining his weight with 14% bf on that little bit of food, then he needs to reduce his carbs and add flax or canola oil and real protein to his diet.

That is absurb.

That will make the problem even worse in the long run.

For someone training 5x/week you are consuming way too many shakes and not nearly enough whole foods.

 

[former_SlimJim]

That is absurb.

That will make the problem even worse in the long run.

For someone training 5x/week you are consuming way too many shakes and not nearly enough whole foods.

Well you're the second guy that said that so maybe I am out to lunch on all that.... pardon the pun.

I am just speaking from my own experience. After my most resent bulking cycle I was at 15% bf, which is the heaviest I've ever been. I decided to cut for awhile to get down to maybe 10%. I kept reducing calories until I was at 1400 per day, half of what I was eating, I felt like I was starving without any loss in weight. Out of frustration I started reading my girlfreinds Atkins book. I cut down my carbs and added canola and I've been losing weight since and I feel full. This isn't a long term thing though.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

You have to understand some very key points that you are not addressing.

First you replced carbs with fats. In fact you increased calories since 1g=9 calories compared to carbs which is 4 cal;ories per 1g. Now when you hit 10% or come close to single digits, you WILL stall and no amount of clories you cut (or carbs) will help.

THe problem here is that he is already losing strenght while cutting calories. This is the basic repsonse of the body when calroies are cut too fast and to low. Cortisol runs rampant, letpin is lowered, gluconeogensis is increased which increases the breakdown of amino's into glucose (hence strength loss), etc....

What you need to do in this situations is increase calories and have those hormonal patterns shiftr back to the fed state. Then when you resume dieting cut calroeis by very small increaments over a long peroid of time. THis will constantly encourage fat loss while maintaining strenght and LBM.

This is the way to do it. Ask my clients. Almost 90% report increase in strenght WHILE cutting. This is because the finally are eating the right amount of calroies and doing it the right way instead of restricting carbs and calories way too much at first.

 

[DieTrying]

I am one of those clients and I will never cut carbs out of my diet again. There really isn't any magic to losing bf. Its amazing how complicated people like to make it.

 

[former_SlimJim]

You have to understand some very key points that you are not addressing.

First you replced carbs with fats. In fact you increased calories since 1g=9 calories compared to carbs which is 4 cal;ories per 1g. Now when you hit 10% or come close to single digits, you WILL stall and no amount of clories you cut (or carbs) will help.

THe problem here is that he is already losing strenght while cutting calories. This is the basic repsonse of the body when calroies are cut too fast and to low. Cortisol runs rampant, letpin is lowered, gluconeogensis is increased which increases the breakdown of amino's into glucose (hence strength loss), etc....

What you need to do in this situations is increase calories and have those hormonal patterns shiftr back to the fed state. Then when you resume dieting cut calroeis by very small increaments over a long peroid of time. THis will constantly encourage fat loss while maintaining strenght and LBM.

This is the way to do it. Ask my clients. Almost 90% report increase in strenght WHILE cutting. This is because the finally are eating the right amount of calroies and doing it the right way instead of restricting carbs and calories way too much at first.

Bobo, I appreciate the feedback. I already know how to calculate my calories and all - I was doing it clear back when I was in high school and a runner. Of course, back then it was all about carb depletion, carb loading before a race, etc. Runners become very good at packing 2 lbs of carbs in a 1 lb bag. Maybe I was expecting the fat loss too quick while I was lowering my calories, but I have to say the keto diet is working. I've lost 7 lbs and it's all off the gut - 1 1/2" around the middle and the calipers tell me it's around a 2-3% reduction. I was always the first to say fat people should just push themselves away from the table, but know I understand why that may not work for everyone. I am currently at 1800 calories using the keto diet; whereas before I was at 1400 by cutting back overall calories. By the way, I was still gaining in strength on the lowered calorie diet and still am on the keto diet. If in the end this turns out to be a bad experience, I'll be the first to say it.

.....Now back to TheUnlikelyToad...... he doesn't say he is on a diet. In fact in his initial post he says he is eating more than he usually does, but he is still losing strength. Then later on in the thread he can't understand why he's not at least losing weight since everyone is saying he is eating too little. I was only commenting on his pondering about not losing weight. IMHO his diet is all carbs and liquid protein, which is not a diet that someone can lose weight on very easily - or gain muscle for that fact. It sounds to me like his loss of reps problem is a classic case of overtraining and his stagnant weight gain is because of the overtraining and his diet.

Just MHO

 

[TheUnlikelyToad]

You have to understand some very key points that you are not addressing.

First you replced carbs with fats. In fact you increased calories since 1g=9 calories compared to carbs which is 4 cal;ories per 1g. Now when you hit 10% or come close to single digits, you WILL stall and no amount of clories you cut (or carbs) will help.

THe problem here is that he is already losing strenght while cutting calories. This is the basic repsonse of the body when calroies are cut too fast and to low. Cortisol runs rampant, letpin is lowered, gluconeogensis is increased which increases the breakdown of amino's into glucose (hence strength loss), etc....

What you need to do in this situations is increase calories and have those hormonal patterns shiftr back to the fed state. Then when you resume dieting cut calroeis by very small increaments over a long peroid of time. THis will constantly encourage fat loss while maintaining strenght and LBM.

This is the way to do it. Ask my clients. Almost 90% report increase in strenght WHILE cutting. This is because the finally are eating the right amount of calroies and doing it the right way instead of restricting carbs and calories way too much at first.

so does strength loss = muscle loss, and strength gain = muscle gain?

...I always assumed not

 

[SJA]

so does strength loss = muscle loss, and strength gain = muscle gain?

...I always assumed not

Consistent strength loss/gain can be equated to muscle loss/gain. But strength IMO is defided differently by people. Even when judging myself it changes. When I'm bulking, I take longer rest periods so therefore I can lift larger weights. So I can gage my strength gains by how much weight and how many reps I lift (the standard way to judge). But when I'm cutting hard, I have a totally different scale. Since I'm a hardcore circuit/dropset trainer, obviously I will not be lifting what I was when I took rest periods. So I gage myself on being able to finish a leg workout without puking my nuts up. Of course I keep an eye on how much I lift, but it's usually in a circuit so it's hard to judge.

 

[former_SlimJim]

so does strength loss = muscle loss, and strength gain = muscle gain?

...I always assumed not

For me, there is only a weak correlation between strength and muscle. Mine tend to go up together when my training and diet are on the mark. They don't come down together though. When I am overtraining, I always lose strength with little loss of muscle. When I am not paying attention to my diet, I always lose muscle with little loss of strength. If I grossly messed up either my diet or training, I'm sure I would eventually lose both at the same rate. I don't give myself an excuse to lose either though - not anymore - I'm tired of the roller coaster ride.

By the way, why are you asking this question? Losing reps still?

 

[silverSurfer]

Something to think about is stress level. If you're constantly on the go and being pressured during work hours it can affect your appetite.

 

[Grim Repper]

I'd definitely go with a short layoff, you know, no pressure to lift. Just rest, eat, sleep, maybe catch up some reading, get a muscle video and get pepped up to go back in a week or so.
Then, I'd definitely cut back on the volume and up the nutrition. Abbreviate the amount of work done, but make every rep and set (although less than your previous amount) count for more!
Good luck and kick some butt.

 

[TheUnlikelyToad]

By the way, why are you asking this question? Losing reps still?

well... sorta, kinda, maybe...lol. SJA put me under his wing and set me up good. I actually gained 6 or 7 lbs but then last week I got hit hard with (I can see Steve shaking his head) not my typical yearly sinus infection but strep throat. So that took me out for a little over a week. Just got back into it again and what do ya know I'm back at 165 :rasp: So its definitely a set point for me without a doubt. Strength-wise I lost some but not much, could just be an initial shock to tha system tho too as I kinda felt lightheaded at tha end of last nights session. Tonight's was a little better.

 

[SJA]

You need to be careful Jordan. If you push it too fast you will relapse and get sick again which will set you back further. Take it easy. Work back mildly until you have your lungs back. Your body definitely will speak to you. Also, with your sinus history, you want to use "the concoction" more now than ever. If you need me to brew some up for you I will. Keep those carbs up (from food) and allow yourself to heal totally before releasing the evil toad once more.

 

[former_SlimJim]

Also, with your sinus history, you want to use "the concoction" more now than ever. If you need me to brew some up for you I will.

A post like this just begs the question... "the concoction"....????

 

[TheUnlikelyToad]

A post like this just begs the question... "the concoction"....????

Ground Angel wings and a dash of well being...

But thank you Steve, I still got some left from a previous purchase. You have no idea how highly I think of you. Seriously, I can honestly say that theres only a few I've gotten real close to on tha boards, so close they are literally family in my eye... you happen to be one of them