What do you think of this... (Static holds)

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    What do you think of this... (Static holds)


    Question: Is it really the case that holding the weight, or pressing against a meter is the same to a muscle as moving a weight through a full range of motion.



    Answer: No one has yet proven with certainty exactly what part of the workout stimulates muscle growth. But Explosive Fitness observed by mathematical analysis of all data, including the Static Contraction and Power Factor studies that have now been done on hundreds of people, that the key to muscle growth appears to be to stimulate the Fast Glycolytic muscle cells. Nothing else seems to matter. Using a full range of motion is a very inefficient way to do that. You have to first exhaust all other muscle cells then finally – during those “last two reps? of extreme effort you always hear about – the Fast Glycolytic cells are activated. With Static Contraction Training those cells, and the ultra high intensity, come into play immediately by using all out effort in the strongest range of motion.

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    This is a very interesting question. Scientifically, what you are saying sounds right, but lets take forearms for instance. I have recently started doing Farmer's walks with 50lb dumbells, walking around an indoor track until they fall out of my hands, usually 5 sets. I have noticed over the weeks my arms, especially forearms are getting more and more developed, as well as my delts and traps.
    I am most surprised at the growth/definition in my delts, seeing that i only do overhead pressing movements every other week. Now, i think the body adapts to the stress put on it, hence why boxers have well developed delts, and usually a good v-taper, despite not lifting heavy nearly as much as we do. Sprinters are lean and muscular as well, and im sure they do not lift nearly as much as most on this board do. I have no scientific explanation nor have i really researched this, its just from my observations over time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SureShot
    This is a very interesting question. Scientifically, what you are saying sounds right, but lets take forearms for instance. I have recently started doing Farmer's walks with 50lb dumbells, walking around an indoor track until they fall out of my hands, usually 5 sets. I have noticed over the weeks my arms, especially forearms are getting more and more developed, as well as my delts and traps.
    I am most surprised at the growth/definition in my delts, seeing that i only do overhead pressing movements every other week. Now, i think the body adapts to the stress put on it, hence why boxers have well developed delts, and usually a good v-taper, despite not lifting heavy nearly as much as we do. Sprinters are lean and muscular as well, and im sure they do not lift nearly as much as most on this board do. I have no scientific explanation nor have i really researched this, its just from my observations over time.
    Boxers box because they are genetically gifted athletes the same as with sprinters. Boxers usually have low BF ,at least the ones with the V shapes,and any person with a decent build and small waist is going to have a V shape. All skinny BBers have V shapes. Boxers lift weights and it doesn't take much training(much meaning many hrs a week)to build a decent amount of muscle..... Now Sprinters aren't muscular because they sprint,they sprint because they're muscular(built for their sport). Marathon runners are marathon runners because they're built for it. Not many people if any at all who are genetically gifted for sprinting will do good in a marathon and vice versa. Alot of people think Sprinters are muscular because they sprint. If a marathon runner desided to be a sprinter and trained with pro sprinters,it wouldn't take long before he gave up realizing he just wasn't built for that sport...... I'm not sure what your trying to get at with the 50lb dumbells but i'm guessing it's because you were told you need heavy weight to increase muscle size or you think it's needed.""""""""hence why boxers have well developed delts, and usually a good v-taper, despite not lifting heavy nearly as much as we do"""""""" Another thing i don't believe.
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    Having used static contraction training I can honestly say that it works quite well.....in the short term. A short stint of about4-6 weeks is great for breaking out of a rut. Can a muscle really tell whether it's been worked through a full range of motion or not? Good question. Answer: u betcha!! Without getting too technical, muscles have a built in reflex that is activated when they are stretched out by a load. Without this stretch the number of muscle fibers recruited may be less than maximal.

    The other question is does this really matter to developing maximum mass? Hmmm.....no one is really sure. In the real world we very rarely encounter situations where muscles are worked along their full range of motion. Does this mean that no real world activities build muscle? Of course not! Therefore hypertrohpy can most certainly be stimulated without full range activity. However it does seem that some amount of movement is necessary.....ie. statics are probably not the best solution.

    Here's where sisco and little made their biggest mistake though. They assumed that because we can move or hold more weight near the end of a repetition range then more muscle is being stimulated. Not so! The reason we can move more at the top of a bench press, for example, is because of the increased leverage in that position. On the other side of the coin is that fact that no matter what range you are lifting in your nervous system cannot be fooled. You can feel that 300 pounds is heavier than 250 pounds whether it is held at the bottom of a rep or the top. And, according to Sisco, that is why the muscles respond to static holds and "strong range" partials. The heavier weight employed in strong range movements stimulates the nervous system more so than lighter full range movements. Note however that I did not say the muscle fibers get more stimulation, just the nervous system this could be and advantage or a disadvantage depending on how you look at it.

    For the record....I am not stating that I aggree with sisco and little's ideas. At least not totally. But it has to be made clear where the ideas came from and that there is some ground for investigation here.

    Let the flaming begin!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manwhore
    Boxers box because they are genetically gifted athletes the same as with sprinters. Boxers usually have low BF ,at least the ones with the V shapes,and any person with a decent build and small waist is going to have a V shape. All skinny BBers have V shapes. Boxers lift weights and it doesn't take much training(much meaning many hrs a week)to build a decent amount of muscle..... Now Sprinters aren't muscular because they sprint,they sprint because they're muscular(built for their sport). Marathon runners are marathon runners because they're built for it. Not many people if any at all who are genetically gifted for sprinting will do good in a marathon and vice versa. Alot of people think Sprinters are muscular because they sprint. If a marathon runner desided to be a sprinter and trained with pro sprinters,it wouldn't take long before he gave up realizing he just wasn't built for that sport...... I'm not sure what your trying to get at with the 50lb dumbells but i'm guessing it's because you were told you need heavy weight to increase muscle size or you think it's needed.""""""""hence why boxers have well developed delts, and usually a good v-taper, despite not lifting heavy nearly as much as we do"""""""" Another thing i don't believe.
    I think you are missing the point completely. Try this: go run 50miles a week or more and train like a marathon runner, watch your muscle mass disappear. Now, instead run windsprints, and you will maintain muscle mass while getting leaner faster, im not talking about elite athletes here, im talking about people who workout.
    You take basically everything i said literally, doing farmer's walks with a weight that is heavy (relative to the person using it) will develop your forearms and delts, that was the point. Have you ever played a competitive sport in your life before? I went in high school from being a distance runner with NO MUSCLE MASS and a gut to being a sprinter/hurdler and there was a marked difference in my physique. Im not talking about BEING AN ELITE SPRINTER, im talking about SPRINTING instead of marathon/distance running. It doesnt matter whether you are built for it or not, you will maintain more muscle mass and be more muscular in part because of the activity you are doing. Just like if bodybuilder decided they wanted to run distance, they would lose a great deal of mass.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SureShot
    I think you are missing the point completely. Try this: go run 50miles a week or more and train like a marathon runner, watch your muscle mass disappear. Now, instead run windsprints, and you will maintain muscle mass while getting leaner faster, im not talking about elite athletes here, im talking about people who workout.
    You take basically everything i said literally, doing farmer's walks with a weight that is heavy (relative to the person using it) will develop your forearms and delts, that was the point. Have you ever played a competitive sport in your life before? I went in high school from being a distance runner with NO MUSCLE MASS and a gut to being a sprinter/hurdler and there was a marked difference in my physique. Im not talking about BEING AN ELITE SPRINTER, im talking about SPRINTING instead of marathon/distance running. It doesnt matter whether you are built for it or not, you will maintain more muscle mass and be more muscular in part because of the activity you are doing. Just like if bodybuilder decided they wanted to run distance, they would lose a great deal of mass.
    Sprinting will increase muscle size(increasing as in noticable muscle mass,because any type of intense exercise will increase muscle at least a little and when fat is low the muscle gained always looks like more) only if genetics allow for it. The reason i say this is because i used to think Sprinting would increase muscle size in everyone until i have friends who were very good sprinters(belonging to highschool sprint teams)and are very skinny. One friend was even the fastest on the team and he would never in a million years be mistaken for a BBer. Marathon runners eat totaly different than sprinters do so just because of diet alone you can't compair MT runners to sprinters. I'm just assuming that so don't quote me on it :-) PS i didn't mean a marathon runner would give up sprinting because he wouldn't win races(well he wouldn't but that's totaly different)i'm saying because he'd see his body wasn't adapting well enough for the sport such as increased muscle strength and size. No matter how much he trained with sprints his muscle size and strength would be determind by his genetics. Sprinters also train with weights and very frenquently,just like BBers
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gethuge
    Having used static contraction training I can honestly say that it works quite well.....in the short term. A short stint of about4-6 weeks is great for breaking out of a rut. Can a muscle really tell whether it's been worked through a full range of motion or not? Good question. Answer: u betcha!! Without getting too technical, muscles have a built in reflex that is activated when they are stretched out by a load. Without this stretch the number of muscle fibers recruited may be less than maximal.

    The other question is does this really matter to developing maximum mass? Hmmm.....no one is really sure. In the real world we very rarely encounter situations where muscles are worked along their full range of motion. Does this mean that no real world activities build muscle? Of course not! Therefore hypertrohpy can most certainly be stimulated without full range activity. However it does seem that some amount of movement is necessary.....ie. statics are probably not the best solution.

    Here's where sisco and little made their biggest mistake though. They assumed that because we can move or hold more weight near the end of a repetition range then more muscle is being stimulated. Not so! The reason we can move more at the top of a bench press, for example, is because of the increased leverage in that position. On the other side of the coin is that fact that no matter what range you are lifting in your nervous system cannot be fooled. You can feel that 300 pounds is heavier than 250 pounds whether it is held at the bottom of a rep or the top. And, according to Sisco, that is why the muscles respond to static holds and "strong range" partials. The heavier weight employed in strong range movements stimulates the nervous system more so than lighter full range movements. Note however that I did not say the muscle fibers get more stimulation, just the nervous system this could be and advantage or a disadvantage depending on how you look at it.

    For the record....I am not stating that I aggree with sisco and little's ideas. At least not totally. But it has to be made clear where the ideas came from and that there is some ground for investigation here.

    Let the flaming begin!!
    Strong range partials need to be done at different points of some exercises in order to effect certain muscle better,such as partial bench in bottom possition for chest since top possition is mostly tris. That's all i can really say about your post :-)
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    static holds will do very little for hypertrophy, but are good for strength gains close to and at the position used for the holds. that's been known for YEARS. static holds will tend to increase strength disproportionately in a range relatively close (within a matter of degrees) but do relatively little for positions farther from the hold.

    they are a useful training tool for strength athletes, if used intelligently. for bbers they are less useful, but have occasional utility
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manwhore
    Strong range partials need to be done at different points of some exercises in order to effect certain muscle better,such as partial bench in bottom possition for chest since top possition is mostly tris. That's all i can really say about your post :-)
    Very good point that many people miss. This is something that C.S. Sloan and others have been using for years. Sloan often uses the top 4-6 inches of the squat with very heavy weights in order to place more emphasis on the quads and force more growth from that specific muscle group.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjjd
    but are good for strength gains close to and at the position used for the holds. that's been known for YEARS. static holds will tend to increase strength disproportionately in a range relatively close (within a matter of degrees) but do relatively little for positions farther from the hold.
    So your telling me if i only did partial bench press that my full range bench wouldn't increase or would rather increase my full range reps very little?
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    no

    your full range bench press would increase IF the range of motion where you did the partilas was your sticking point, so to speak.

    i have seen both OLers and PLers use static holds (also using a similar technique where you pull or push the bar against a stop at a given position) to good effect

    but the point is that if you use static holds to increase your strength at an arm angle of X degrees, that will only carryover a small # of degrees in either direction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjjd
    no

    your full range bench press would increase IF the range of motion where you did the partilas was your sticking point, so to speak.

    i have seen both OLers and PLers use static holds (also using a similar technique where you pull or push the bar against a stop at a given position) to good effect

    but the point is that if you use static holds to increase your strength at an arm angle of X degrees, that will only carryover a small # of degrees in either direction.
    Well,i can't say i've seen it work with my own eyes other than for myself(never watch people train or follow their progress),but i believe earlier strong men used heavy statics and partials for increasing full range reps with much success..... My sticking point is always at the half way mark on the bench but i've used heavy partials from 4in below lockout to lockout and my strength increased very well on full range or at least what most bbers call full range. If you walk X miles X/week with a backpack and keep increasing the weight in that backpack every week/weeks your legs will get stronger.... Full range is great for a pump and an ego boost
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    look, you can talk analogies, but i'm talking science. it is simply a fact that holding a weight at a certain position has been shown to preferentially increase strength NEAR that position, and much less so as you move farther from that range

    neither ol'ers or pl'ers (the two examples i cite) do full range for a "pump and an ego boost". it has nothing to do with the discussion

    if you want to get stronger at full range squats (which has a # of applications for ol'ers) then doing 5 degree ROM squats or static holds are of minimum benefit

    and why are you asking the question if you already think you know the answer?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjjd
    look, you can talk analogies, but i'm talking science. it is simply a fact that holding a weight at a certain position has been shown to preferentially increase strength NEAR that position, and much less so as you move farther from that range

    neither ol'ers or pl'ers (the two examples i cite) do full range for a "pump and an ego boost". it has nothing to do with the discussion

    if you want to get stronger at full range squats (which has a # of applications for ol'ers) then doing 5 degree ROM squats or static holds are of minimum benefit

    and why are you asking the question if you already think you know the answer?
    I just asked what everyone thought of the question and answer,i never said i knew the answer i just don't agree with yours.......... I just meant that ego and pump are too things that full range give that partials and static may not.......Yes,i agree that science shows partial and static reps increase strength near and at the possition they're used and strength father from that possition increases little COMPAIRED to the strength gained at the possition the static or partials are used. That doesn't mean your strength in full range gained from partials would be any lower than full range strength gained from only uses full range reps. I've used heavy static heavy partials and when i went back to my previously heavy full range weight it wasn't so heavy any more for a full range rep.
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    if ANYTHING, partials give more ego boost, since it is the ego driven who load up with big weights on the leg press, squat, etc. and then proceed to do partials, to impress people. we've all seen these guys. it takes a bit of ego swallowing ot go DOWN in weight so you can actually do an ass to grass squat. heck, i can partial FAR more than i can full squat. but i choose to get stronger vs. feeding my ego and impressing the gym moron

    as to the science, it is clear. as to how it "feels" as in "wasn't as heavy", OF COURSE, if you get your body used to the heavier load, the weights feel lighter. that's part of the reason for rack walkouts with max+10% or so which is often done. but that's not a strength thang
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    Well,when i do partials i don't do them in a gym because i don't want anyone knowing my secret :-) OK that was fun,i need sleep now. We'll talk about training to failure tomorrow
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    JJ i was meaning to post this but i didn't get around to it. I thought it was a little interesting. I have an old Ironman magazine... May of 97 to be exact and there is this guy in it George Olesen who is a strongman from Denmark. He has a 20in left bicep and a 23in right bicep. They claim his 700lb 1 finger lift(static hold)gave him the extra 3in in his right arm. His right bicep is clearly alot bigger than his left. If your interested in seeing the article,i can probably scan it when i get some time.... I'm not saying your wrong and im right or im right and your wrong :-) but i think it's very interesting.
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    i'll check the article out

    thanks
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    jjjd: heavy board presses and band work are the two biggest keys to insane bench strength in my experience. There are a multitude of reasons for that but overloading the top of the bench is a huge factor. Properly done partials are all about brining up weak points in a lift, and when we train, we choose a number of boards or a box height that causes you to come to a full stop at your weakest point in the ROM. All of the guys I train with are huge board press fans, and it's probably mostly responsible for taking two of our guys over 600lbs in the bench.
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    dont forget chains,
    gotta love the many ways to take advantage of accommodating resistance.
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    X-Reps


    Thought you guys might find this interesting. It's a twist on the whole static hold idea. I just bought the X-reps ebook from IronMan and I'm giving it a try. The main concept is at the end of your final set you perform as many x-reps as you can. X-reps refers to doing a static hold, only instead of holding the weight in one position, you 'pulse' the weight in a 4-6 inch range. I'm one week in so I can't speak to how effective it is, but I can say that I can really feel the muscle that I'm working and get a great pump.

    Check it out, I think it's a well written book:

    X-Reps
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelsey
    dont forget chains,
    gotta love the many ways to take advantage of accommodating resistance.
    We don't use chains very often. Bands work MUCH better... in fact we use chains more on ME day than DE day, since it makes you work to stabilize the weight and keep your back tight. Give the bands a try if you mostly use chains now, you won't be sorry!
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    Quote Originally Posted by exnihilo
    We don't use chains very often. Bands work MUCH better... in fact we use chains more on ME day than DE day, since it makes you work to stabilize the weight and keep your back tight. Give the bands a try if you mostly use chains now, you won't be sorry!

    Oh we use the hell out of some bands, it has been a long a_ _ time since we used raw weight..hmmm bout time to see what my max is...
  

  
 

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