What is over training?

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    What is over training?


    Ok, I know what it is and the effect, but how do people get there?

    Like if you do chest 3 times a week full load? for like 6 weeks straight? Can that lead to OT?

    Or a normal routine like

    every mondy you do bench press until you hit fatigue on each set. Can that lead to OT?

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    Over training has a lot of factors:
    Supplements
    "supplements"
    Your experience
    Your body.

    Me personally I can "feel" when I have over trained. I ache, in a not pleasant way, weight that should feel a bit lighter begins to seem a bit heavier. Etc.

    Personally every 4-5 weeks I try to take a good week off. Trust me, it won't kill you.
    Some people do 4 weeks of heavy and then a week "off" but during that week they still stay active (1-3 sets, light weight). However all these numbers are meaningless. There is no magic number--hence why everyone does things differently.

    Just listen to your body and see what it tells you to do. If still unsure train hard for 4 weeks and then take a week off. Won't kill you...

    also, IMO doing chest 3 times a week is ridiculous.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kBrown
    Over training has a lot of factors:
    Supplements
    "supplements"
    Your experience
    Your body.

    Me personally I can "feel" when I have over trained. I ache, in a not pleasant way, weight that should feel a bit lighter begins to seem a bit heavier. Etc.

    Personally every 4-5 weeks I try to take a good week off. Trust me, it won't kill you.
    Some people do 4 weeks of heavy and then a week "off" but during that week they still stay active (1-3 sets, light weight). However all these numbers are meaningless. There is no magic number--hence why everyone does things differently.

    Just listen to your body and see what it tells you to do. If still unsure train hard for 4 weeks and then take a week off. Won't kill you...

    also, IMO doing chest 3 times a week is ridiculous.
    Yea I agree with this. You just have to listen to your body. I know I have overtrained when I feel really fatigued, and don't want to work out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigintensions View Post
    Yea I agree with this. You just have to listen to your body. I know I have overtrained when I feel really fatigued, and don't want to work out.
    I train with 3 of my roomies, we are all at very different phases of development and training. But, we all reach a common point where it is like:
    Man I want to train, but my body is hurting in ways that tell me I shouldnt be lifting.

    When you get to that point just rest.

    Taking 4-7 days off will not weaken you in the least.
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    Whoever coined the term overtraining needs to be shot. Overtraining is primarily a CNS issue; overuse is a completely different issue. 99% of people that think they are overtraining are not. Unless you're consistently training >90% of your 1RM 2-3x/week, you're not going to overtrain and there are ways in which you can do that and still not overtrain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kBrown View Post
    Over training has a lot of factors:
    Supplements
    "supplements"
    Your experience
    Your body.

    Me personally I can "feel" when I have over trained. I ache, in a not pleasant way, weight that should feel a bit lighter begins to seem a bit heavier. Etc.

    Personally every 4-5 weeks I try to take a good week off. Trust me, it won't kill you.
    Some people do 4 weeks of heavy and then a week "off" but during that week they still stay active (1-3 sets, light weight). However all these numbers are meaningless. There is no magic number--hence why everyone does things differently.

    Just listen to your body and see what it tells you to do. If still unsure train hard for 4 weeks and then take a week off. Won't kill you...

    also, IMO doing chest 3 times a week is ridiculous.
    boom! agreed, taking time off is a good thing....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Whoever coined the term overtraining needs to be shot. Overtraining is primarily a CNS issue; overuse is a completely different issue. 99% of people that think they are overtraining are not. Unless you're consistently training >90% of your 1RM 2-3x/week, you're not going to overtrain and there are ways in which you can do that and still not overtrain.
    When your body aches, it aches and needs time off plain and simple.

    You can go through a particularly brutal week long routine and be out of commission for a solid 3-4 days easily if your body is not used to that routine--matter of fact I am going through such an episode right now.

    You are right though:
    Many of us when utilizing the term "over training" do not distinguish between giving the muscles sufficient time to recover and the CNS.

    You are also correct in saying (well you implied) that your CNS becomes increasingly stressed when training around 90% of your 1RM, when training at these levels you do require time to de-load (some use a bit of volume training for a week to give the body a rest).

    Curious how your post, other than to detract from what was said above helps the individual (willc86) in any way?
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    Quote Originally Posted by kBrown View Post
    When your body aches, it aches and needs time off plain and simple.

    You can go through a particularly brutal week long routine and be out of commission for a solid 3-4 days easily if your body is not used to that routine--matter of fact I am going through such an episode right now.

    You are right though:
    Many of us when utilizing the term "over training" do not distinguish between giving the muscles sufficient time to recover and the CNS.

    You are also correct in saying (well you implied) that your CNS becomes increasingly stressed when training around 90% of your 1RM, when training at these levels you do require time to de-load (some use a bit of volume training for a week to give the body a rest).

    Curious how your post, other than to detract from what was said above helps the individual (willc86) in any way?
    If you're body is not conditioned for a particular phase, then the recovery will take longer, but, as the body adapts, your recovery will increase. Just because your body aches does not mean that you need time off. It could be from an overuse injury, but it could also be from inadequate cool-down, lack of mobility, or you could just need a good MFR session.

    The point of my post is that people are far too quick to throw out overtraining and think that it's very easy to do when it's not. The body is not that fragile and people need to quit acting as though overtraining is something that happens overnight. It takes months to reach a truly overtrained state.
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    So, it is impossible to overtrain if I do chest once a week and fatiguing all the time?
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    Quote Originally Posted by willc86 View Post
    So, it is impossible to overtrain if I do chest once a week and fatiguing all the time?
    You may potentially get an overuse injury (e.g. sprain or strain), but overtraining is unlikely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by willc86 View Post
    So, it is impossible to overtrain if I do chest once a week and fatiguing all the time?
    IMO
    You will be fine performing chest once a week. You could also hit it twice a week, though the second time I would suggest hitting the chest in a different manner (e.g. weighted dips).

    Overall this is my advice take it or leave it I am not here to argue
    Train hard for 4 weeks rest a week. (you will not have any strength decreases from a week off, just stay active...springs, jogging, etc)
    Or train 4 weeks heavy and then do a week of deload (e.g. 4 weeks heavy, 1 week light--more reps, less sets)

    As you become more experienced you will know what protocols to follow for your body.

    Also, everyone is going to have a different opinion, or "expert opinion" or "educated opinion" or however they want to bill it on this matter.

    Ultimately train for years and figure out what works for you, in the process educate yourself as much as possible
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    Quote Originally Posted by willc86 View Post
    So, it is impossible to overtrain if I do chest once a week and fatiguing all the time?
    You might be in an "over-reaching" state where the body is being used a lot and needs more time to adapt. If this happens too often and your body can't recover quick enough with all the stimulation it keeps getting, then over several weeks you can reach an "over training" state. Other than that your okay. I think that working chest 3x a week is too much, but depending on the intensity or workload of your training who knows? I could go into the gym 3 days/week and do 3 sets of bench press at 65% of my 1rm and I would be fine. If your on the opposite side of the spectrum and crushin it with high volume or high intensity of your 1rm then you will over-reach and in time possibly, just possibly overtrain.
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    Thank you! I will take that advice. I also read that advice somewhere.

    so 4 weeks heavy, 1 week light then continue 4 weeks heavy 1 week light and so fourth.

    I should probably switch how I do chest as well. Like instead of bench press, maybe use dumbells?
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    Its apain in the a#$!!!Im still recovering half from it,my lifts never really suffered,weight always went up,ran/swam faster,what it did was overload my cns,causing me to be fatigued though out day and sometimes the day after training.


    My training isnt the average b/b routine i do alot of circuit/complexes with running/swimming durning the week at a very high intensity.Al my training/routines change with each micro segment,so theres always change(trainer for all this)


    Main thing is dont over do it like i did(extra training on top of my trainers)so unless your training/lifting super heavy(squats/deads are the worse on cns)you should be ok as long as diet is in check for your routine/lifestlye
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Whoever coined the term overtraining needs to be shot. Overtraining is primarily a CNS issue; overuse is a completely different issue. 99% of people that think they are overtraining are not. Unless you're consistently training >90% of your 1RM 2-3x/week, you're not going to overtrain and there are ways in which you can do that and still not overtrain.
    Completely agree. Frankly the vast majority of people don't train hard enough consistently to overtrain. The idea that you shouldn't train while a little sore or anything of the nature is funny. The body adapts so quickly and I'm a huge proponent of active recovery anyways. I remember I used to be "afraid" of overtraining as it was all you'd read about for a while. Soon I was almost scared to truly work in the gym cause heaven forbid I overtrain and turn into a 4th grade girl!
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    i usually take a good week or two to deload after 12-16 consecutive weeks of progressive overload.
    I know i need a deload when:
    1) I'm tired
    2) light weights feel heavy
    3) i dont have motivation to lift

    .. like the guys are saying whether that is over reaching or over training is beyond my concern. The matter of the fact is that after 12-16 weeks of HARD training, 4-5x a week, i get burnt out. idk what you wanna call it, but when i take one week off, then do a light week the next (or vice versa) my energy levels skyrocket and i even seem to grow a little bit.. but maybe thats just me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kBrown

    IMO
    You will be fine performing chest once a week. You could also hit it twice a week, though the second time I would suggest hitting the chest in a different manner (e.g. weighted dips).

    Overall this is my advice take it or leave it I am not here to argue
    Train hard for 4 weeks rest a week. (you will not have any strength decreases from a week off, just stay active...springs, jogging, etc)
    Or train 4 weeks heavy and then do a week of deload (e.g. 4 weeks heavy, 1 week light--more reps, less sets)

    As you become more experienced you will know what protocols to follow for your body.

    Also, everyone is going to have a different opinion, or "expert opinion" or "educated opinion" or however they want to bill it on this matter.

    Ultimately train for years and figure out what works for you, in the process educate yourself as much as possible
    Nicely said
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce View Post
    Completely agree. Frankly the vast majority of people don't train hard enough consistently to overtrain. The idea that you shouldn't train while a little sore or anything of the nature is funny. The body adapts so quickly and I'm a huge proponent of active recovery anyways. I remember I used to be "afraid" of overtraining as it was all you'd read about for a while. Soon I was almost scared to truly work in the gym cause heaven forbid I overtrain and turn into a 4th grade girl!
    i have to disagree. if your an ectomorph and you start working out everyday for 1.5 or 2 hours everyday you will be doing yourself a major disservice, and have a much harder time putting mass on than if you are working out 4 or 5 days a week with workouts about 45 minutes long. Lots of people start off working out and are all excitied and overtrain. Rest and recovery is just as important as time in the gym. Do you know how many guys went out and bought arnolds encyclopedia of modern bodybuilding and saw little to no results because they were all overtraining. Overtraining and too much volume is a killerto alot of people, especially ecto's
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    Quote Originally Posted by kBrown View Post
    When your body aches, it aches and needs time off plain and simple.

    You can go through a particularly brutal week long routine and be out of commission for a solid 3-4 days easily if your body is not used to that routine--matter of fact I am going through such an episode right now.

    You are right though:
    Many of us when utilizing the term "over training" do not distinguish between giving the muscles sufficient time to recover and the CNS.

    You are also correct in saying (well you implied) that your CNS becomes increasingly stressed when training around 90% of your 1RM, when training at these levels you do require time to de-load (some use a bit of volume training for a week to give the body a rest).

    Curious how your post, other than to detract from what was said above helps the individual (willc86) in any way?
    I agree wholeheartedly.....having recently suffered. I was doing the Layne Norton routine which was pretty intensive training 5 days a week and doing HIT the other two days combined with a massively reduced calorific intake....not a good idea. It first manifested itself as fatigue and lack of motivation, but I stuck to it thinking I was being a girl....and then it hit me at once...it was awful...palpitations, hot flushes, sweats, tremors, insomnia, lack of appetite and gas....its taken me fives to be feel 70 - 80% of normal and start a half decent weights routine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by saggy321 View Post
    I agree wholeheartedly.....having recently suffered. I was doing the Layne Norton routine which was pretty intensive training 5 days a week and doing HIT the other two days combined with a massively reduced calorific intake....not a good idea. It first manifested itself as fatigue and lack of motivation, but I stuck to it thinking I was being a girl....and then it hit me at once...it was awful...palpitations, hot flushes, sweats, tremors, insomnia, lack of appetite and gas....its taken me fives to be feel 70 - 80% of normal and start a half decent weights routine.
    When you got taxed out how was your sleeping?I ask because some nights i sleep ok,but alot i keep waking to pee,hands keep going numb no matter how i postion them,and an hour before usally wake up i start getting restless.DId you have any of this,or am i just sleeping on a crappy matress(kiddin its new)
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    chris aceto recently wrote an article about overtraining....it's a lot more common than ppl think
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    I usually take a week off at the begining of the year and one at the end.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomGreen View Post
    i have to disagree. if your an ectomorph and you start working out everyday for 1.5 or 2 hours everyday you will be doing yourself a major disservice, and have a much harder time putting mass on than if you are working out 4 or 5 days a week with workouts about 45 minutes long. Lots of people start off working out and are all excitied and overtrain. Rest and recovery is just as important as time in the gym. Do you know how many guys went out and bought arnolds encyclopedia of modern bodybuilding and saw little to no results because they were all overtraining. Overtraining and too much volume is a killerto alot of people, especially ecto's
    I wasn't trying to say it is impossible to overtrain, merely that for the VAST majority of trainers it isn't something to be concerned with. I don't know where you're working out at, but I'd say 99% of the people I've seen in the different gyms I've been to are not working out hard enough to overtrain. Nor did I ever say rest and recovery weren't important.

    My point was overtraining is an excuse to most to not work hard. The general average American Joe weightlifter doesn't need to be concerned with overtraining one bit. They aren't working hard enough consistently to see anything near it.

    People need to learn the difference between overreaching and overtraining and also realize that just because you "aren't feeling it" in the gym one day doesn't mean you're overtrained.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tubbednova View Post
    When you got taxed out how was your sleeping?I ask because some nights i sleep ok,but alot i keep waking to pee,hands keep going numb no matter how i postion them,and an hour before usally wake up i start getting restless.DId you have any of this,or am i just sleeping on a crappy matress(kiddin its new)
    For a couple of nights I awoke drenched in sweat for no reason, it wasn't even warm. But I didn't think anything of it. But then I couldn't sleep at all....literally nothing...for four nights. I was lying down and my heart rate was elevated by 30%. My body felt I had taken stims even though I hadn't. It was all the cortisol and adrenaline pumping through my body. I also had very cold hands and feet due to the adrenaline.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomGreen View Post
    i have to disagree. if your an ectomorph and you start working out everyday for 1.5 or 2 hours everyday you will be doing yourself a major disservice, and have a much harder time putting mass on than if you are working out 4 or 5 days a week with workouts about 45 minutes long. Lots of people start off working out and are all excitied and overtrain. Rest and recovery is just as important as time in the gym. Do you know how many guys went out and bought arnolds encyclopedia of modern bodybuilding and saw little to no results because they were all overtraining. Overtraining and too much volume is a killerto alot of people, especially ecto's



    I go to the gym now 4 times a week and stay no more then 45 mins at the gym. But everything I lift is always heavy. I am confused...I thought ectos need a lot of volume to grow. I usually aim for 5-7reps heavy weight every set I do

    or sometimes I do 2 warm up set of about 12-15 then 6-10 then last 2 sets I go heavy aiming for about 4-6 struggling like hell. so it loosk osmething liek this

    Chest/biceps/back/legs
    set 1 - 12-15 reps Light
    set 2 - 12-15 reps Light
    set 3 - 7-10 reps - moderate heavy(fatigued)
    set 4 - 4-6 reps - really heavy (faitgued)

    Abs
    a lot of reps

    By the ways, I am an ecto. I am 6ft and currently weight 205lbs. I am trying to get 220 230 at around 7-11% boody fat.

    I still get sore at every body part every day. especially chest. My chest stays sore for like 3 days still. Not sure if that is normal after a while of being at the gym.
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    Quote Originally Posted by willc86 View Post
    I go to the gym now 4 times a week and stay no more then 45 mins at the gym. But everything I lift is always heavy. I am confused...I thought ectos need a lot of volume to grow. I usually aim for 5-7reps heavy weight every set I do

    or sometimes I do 2 warm up set of about 12-15 then 6-10 then last 2 sets I go heavy aiming for about 4-6 struggling like hell. so it loosk osmething liek this

    Chest/biceps/back/legs
    set 1 - 12-15 reps Light
    set 2 - 12-15 reps Light
    set 3 - 7-10 reps - moderate heavy(fatigued)
    set 4 - 4-6 reps - really heavy (faitgued)

    Abs
    a lot of reps

    By the ways, I am an ecto. I am 6ft and currently weight 205lbs. I am trying to get 220 230 at around 7-11% boody fat.

    I still get sore at every body part every day. especially chest. My chest stays sore for like 3 days still. Not sure if that is normal after a while of being at the gym.
    Soreness means little when it comes to recovery. I can still feel some soreness in my upper body from Friday, but that's not going to stop me from training today. With your rep scheme and amount of time you're actually in the gym, it will be very unlikely that you will overtrain because your reps are not the extreme end of 1RM (assuming you have adequate nutrition and sleep).
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    that is good to know =)

    What is 1RM?
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    Quote Originally Posted by willc86 View Post
    that is good to know =)

    What is 1RM?
    1 Rep Max
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    Quote Originally Posted by willc86 View Post
    that is good to know =)

    What is 1RM?
    1 rep maximum. The max amount of weight you can lift one time for a certain exercise.

    For example if you can bench press 200 pounds one time, but can't bench 205 then your 1RM on bench is 200 pounds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomGreen

    i have to disagree. if your an ectomorph and you start working out everyday for 1.5 or 2 hours everyday you will be doing yourself a major disservice, and have a much harder time putting mass on than if you are working out 4 or 5 days a week with workouts about 45 minutes long. Lots of people start off working out and are all excitied and overtrain. Rest and recovery is just as important as time in the gym. Do you know how many guys went out and bought arnolds encyclopedia of modern bodybuilding and saw little to no results because they were all overtraining. Overtraining and too much volume is a killerto alot of people, especially ecto's
    I'd have to disagree a bit... "Hardgainers" usually underestimate how much more they should eat when working out hard. That way, you're constantly working out on depleted energy levels and after a while your ability to perform goes downhill. Up daily cals intake and you'll be back on track in nearly no time.
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    So, is this a good work out for bulking?

    Chest/biceps/back/legs
    set 1 - 12-15 reps Light
    set 2 - 12-15 reps Light/moderate (almost hits fatigue but can keep going if I wanted too)
    set 3 - 7-10 reps - moderate heavy(fatigued)
    set 4 - 4-6 reps - really heavy (faitgued)

    abs

    lots of reps moderate weight to failure each
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    Quote Originally Posted by willc86 View Post
    So, is this a good work out for bulking?

    Chest/biceps/back/legs
    set 1 - 12-15 reps Light
    set 2 - 12-15 reps Light/moderate (almost hits fatigue but can keep going if I wanted too)
    set 3 - 7-10 reps - moderate heavy(fatigued)
    set 4 - 4-6 reps - really heavy (faitgued)

    abs

    lots of reps moderate weight to failure each
    Bulking has much more to do with your diet.
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    Yeah, I am eating good now. Finally got my diet packed. I am trying to hit 50ish grams of protein each meal now, but still slowly getting there. But I eat good qualities of food like

    10 eggs yogurt bannana

    2 cups brown rice 1 chicken 1 scoop protein

    full serving weight gainer

    ect.... 6 times a day

    But I just want to make sure I have my work out packed. I am just a bit confused on whats best for developing size and mass

    like I seen people be like 5 set of 4-5 reps fatiguing each set

    then people say hit your heavy weight on your last 1 or 2 sets, which is what I have been doing.

    I see people saying do 3 min rest, 40 sec rest 1 min rest. so all this information is just like, dam...what do I do.

    I do try to switch it up every 2 months.
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    Quote Originally Posted by willc86
    So, is this a good work out for bulking?

    Chest/biceps/back/legs
    set 1 - 12-15 reps Light
    set 2 - 12-15 reps Light/moderate (almost hits fatigue but can keep going if I wanted too)
    set 3 - 7-10 reps - moderate heavy(fatigued)
    set 4 - 4-6 reps - really heavy (faitgued)

    abs

    lots of reps moderate weight to failure each
    A good split is chest/biceps -off-legs/abs-off-back/tricep-off-shoulders-off-off as for sets,ect

    Pick 4 exercises (2 for each part or 3 for lagging part1 for other) 3 to 4 sets 8 to 12 reps for upper body and 12 to 20 for lower /abs*hypertrophy ranges*every 4 to 8 weeks or so switch either rep range from hypertrophy to strenght *3-6* and go heavy or add a different exercise to the mix.
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    Quote Originally Posted by willc86 View Post
    Yeah, I am eating good now. Finally got my diet packed. I am trying to hit 50ish grams of protein each meal now, but still slowly getting there. But I eat good qualities of food like

    10 eggs yogurt bannana

    2 cups brown rice 1 chicken 1 scoop protein

    full serving weight gainer

    ect.... 6 times a day

    But I just want to make sure I have my work out packed. I am just a bit confused on whats best for developing size and mass

    like I seen people be like 5 set of 4-5 reps fatiguing each set

    then people say hit your heavy weight on your last 1 or 2 sets, which is what I have been doing.

    I see people saying do 3 min rest, 40 sec rest 1 min rest. so all this information is just like, dam...what do I do.

    I do try to switch it up every 2 months.
    Rest depends of how heavy it is. Working up to a max double will require more rest between sets than a set of 12. Honestly, it sounds like you need to do the thing that everybody has to do: trial and error and learn what works specifically for you.

    As far as changing it up goes, there is no reason to change your routine just for the sake of changing it. If you're still seeing results from it in terms of both size and strength, then there is no reason to change it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja

    Rest depends of how heavy it is. Working up to a max double will require more rest between sets than a set of 12. Honestly, it sounds like you need to do the thing that everybody has to do: trial and error and learn what works specifically for you.

    As far as changing it up goes, there is no reason to change your routine just for the sake of changing it. If you're still seeing results from it in terms of both size and strength, then there is no reason to change it.
    Agreed
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    whats your thoughts on this i train legs once a week and have done for long time but i lift heavy and so after heavy squats 5 heavy sets 3 heavy leg press 3 sets calfs 3 set leg extentions 4 sets of romanian deadlift heavy thats my leg work out takes about an hour i am absalutly broke up for most of the week and only start to feel good by the time its back to legs 1 week later other days im training upper body about 5 days a week
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    Quote Originally Posted by viagra69
    whats your thoughts on this i train legs once a week and have done for long time but i lift heavy and so after heavy squats 5 heavy sets 3 heavy leg press 3 sets calfs 3 set leg extentions 4 sets of romanian deadlift heavy thats my leg work out takes about an hour i am absalutly broke up for most of the week and only start to feel good by the time its back to legs 1 week later other days im training upper body about 5 days a week
    That's quite a volume. Are you lifting close to your 1RM? Are you adding weight on every workout? Are you adding mass?
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    not realy making much in the line of gains squat was at about 160kg romanian dead at 150kg for a long time went on a course of test prop and primo sq went to 180kg romanian to 170kg when i came off during pct didnt push myself to the max just finished pct and got a bad flu so not realy sure where i am strength wise now havnt tried my max but wud squat about 150kg and romanian about the same during pct just back this week after the flu im a hard gainer but short at 5.7 probably down to about 183 after this flu
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    ^^ do you guys REALLY think thats alot of volume.. I feel like i must be seriously overdoing it, if thats the case...
    Im doing about 15 sets for legs (4 leg curl 4 squat 4 leg pres or hax 4 sldl) and im really never sore for more than 3 days ... i feel like you're not eating enough or sleeping enough if your sore for a whole week. either that or you're dehydrated, and drinking booze..?
  

  
 

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