What is over training?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grmlock View Post
    Is Aceto even relevant in the business anymore? I haven't heard anything from him in awhile.
    the article i posted was originally posted march 21, 2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Young Gotti View Post
    the article i posted was originally posted march 21, 2012
    Relevant and active are different. I can't recall him prepping anyone lately.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grmlock View Post
    Relevant and active are different. I can't recall him prepping anyone lately.
    i'm sure he's working with people...i dunno....but his track record shows he knows what he's talking about....so usually when he writes an article, it's spot on
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    Quote Originally Posted by Young Gotti View Post
    i'm sure he's working with people...i dunno....but his track record shows he knows what he's talking about....so usually when he writes an article, it's spot on
    Perhaps in nutrition, but overtraining is a CNS issue. At no point in the article did he mention the CNS, 1RM load, waving, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    This needs to be highlighted. BB'ers, despite not looking like it, are extremely out of shape and there is barely an emphasis on conditioning to increase work capacity. Having a high work capacity not only increases your training threshold, it also allows you to recover faster and lessens chance of injury.
    That gives me a perspective on something.
    I've got a colleague who's doing BB-style workouts since "forever" and despite it he's bit overweight (27% bf) and quite often complaining on soreness after his leg routine. I've been training for ultramarathons last year after few years of running (Mind that I wasn't fond of exercise when I was younger at all) and doing a bit of weight training on-off. Now I focus more on weights, I recover much faster than him from my trainings and, well, I don't feel like dying after 5k run as he does.
    Could it be that my body is generally better conditioned because of endurance running and that's why I recover faster?
    Check out my current log: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/195262-iforce-tropinol-testabolan.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKNoko View Post
    That gives me a perspective on something.
    I've got a colleague who's doing BB-style workouts since "forever" and despite it he's bit overweight (27% bf) and quite often complaining on soreness after his leg routine. I've been training for ultramarathons last year after few years of running (Mind that I wasn't fond of exercise when I was younger at all) and doing a bit of weight training on-off. Now I focus more on weights, I recover much faster than him from my trainings and, well, I don't feel like dying after 5k run as he does.
    Could it be that my body is generally better conditioned because of endurance running and that's why I recover faster?
    Yes, being in that kind of condition helps recovery a lot. His problem is just too much excess adipose on his frame, which is causing more general stress.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Yes, being in that kind of condition helps recovery a lot. His problem is just too much excess adipose on his frame, which is causing more general stress.
    Thanks. I could not understand it until now, as he's much stronger and training for so much longer than me.
    About excess adipose tissue, well he's working on it now. Interestingly he was oblivious to the fact of how much fat he is carrying until just recently. Now he has better diet and does HIT.
    Check out my current log: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/195262-iforce-tropinol-testabolan.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post
    Rodja, you're becoming one of my favorite posters on this board,
    I would say the same thing, then he goes and says something like "inadequate cool-down".
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post
    Once per week is not enough frequency.

    This is the routine I always recommend. I found it on another site. ZiR RED (he posts on here too) is the one I got it from.

    Monday: Upper Body, horizontal emphasis, vertical maintenance
    3X5 Bench Press
    3X5 BB Rows
    3X10 Incline Press
    3X10 Pullups
    3X10 CG Bench Press

    Tuesday: Lower Body, posterior chain emphasis, quad maintenance
    3X5 Back Squat
    3X5 SLDL
    5X3 Power Cleans
    3X10 Front Squat
    3X10 Abs

    Thursday: Upper Body, vertical emphasis, horizontal maintenance
    3X5 Strict Press
    3X5 Weighted Chin-ups
    3X10 Bench Press
    3X10 Barbell Rows
    3X10 DB Curls

    Friday: Lower Body, quad emphasis, posterior chain maintenance
    3X5 Front Squat
    3X5 Deadlifts
    3X5 Single legged lunges
    5X3 Power Cleans
    3X10 Abs
    that sounds good =) I will try this out for 6-8 weeks see how it goes.

    So, Should I lift heavy each workout? like example Monday go heavy and thursday go heavy again or go a bit lighter? And when I mean heavy, hit fatigue everyset
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    Quote Originally Posted by willc86 View Post
    that sounds good =) I will try this out for 6-8 weeks see how it goes.

    So, Should I lift heavy each workout? like example Monday go heavy and thursday go heavy again or go a bit lighter? And when I mean heavy, hit fatigue everyset
    6-8 weeks isn't even time to see significant results with anything.

    Monday you'd go heavy with rows and bench (4-6 rep range), light with inclines and pullups (8-12 rep range).

    Thursday you'd go heavy with presses and pullups (4-6 rep range), light with flat bench and rows (8-12 rep range).

    Each Monday, your bench should increase 5-10lbs. It's pointless to workout if you're not using progressive overload and giving the muscle greater stimulus each session.

    Same thing with your light inclines and pullups, you should increase their weight 5-10lbs each session too.

    Each Thursday, your press should increase 5lbs. I know your press will plteau quick, so eventually it'll be every 2-3 weeks your presss will increase, but in the meantime focus on better tempo, muscular contraction, maybe even get an extra rep in.

    Start LIGHT. Lets assume your normal bench workout is 185lbs x 5 x 5. Drop the weight to 145lbs and each week add weight. This is going to force your CNS to activate motor units that weren't previously utilized. This will allow the program to work for longer periods and allow you to hit PR's faster.

    Drop the weight, add weight each session. Don't let your ego get in the way.

    I'd also youtube "so you think you can bench?" as well as "so you think you can squat?" Most people need form adjustments.

    Do NOT forget to squat. Squatting will cause ALL your lifts go up. Focus harder on your lower body days as you do on the upper body days. Front squats, cleans, back squats, deadlifts ALL of them will benefit your upper body. If you don't believe me, focus on developing those lifts and you will see.

    Make sure your squats are deep squats utilizing hip extension versus driving your feet into the ground and "leg presses" the weight up. Drive your back into the bar. Ass up, hips forward.

    With deadlifts let the bar roll up and down your legs. You should get a nice line from this.
    Former Marine, UT-BSN, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, CSCS
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    thank you! Ok I will stick with this for a while! So everytime, I would go heavy then a sub I would go light...like bech heavy then declined light.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Perhaps in nutrition, but overtraining is a CNS issue. At no point in the article did he mention the CNS, 1RM load, waving, etc.
    so if your saying overtraining and cns fatigue are the same thing

    what is the term you'd use to describe ppl who train for too long or too many sets and don't see gains because of it? or don't recover fully the way they should, even if their cns isn't destroyed
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    Quote Originally Posted by Young Gotti View Post
    so if your saying overtraining and cns fatigue are the same thing
    Yes. CNS fatigue is overtraining.

    what is the term you'd use to describe ppl who train for too long or too many sets and don't see gains because of it? or don't recover fully the way they should, even if their cns isn't destroyed
    That's just overuse and too much volume. Often times too much stress on the endocrine system results in catabolic hormone production is the result of too much training, but who's to say one won't receive results doing countless sets? It may be imbalanced, unnecessary and a waste of time, but nobody is saying it won't work. As long as contraction, recovery and nutrition occur hypertrophy is possible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Young Gotti View Post
    so if your saying overtraining and cns fatigue are the same thing

    what is the term you'd use to describe ppl who train for too long or too many sets and don't see gains because of it? or don't recover fully the way they should, even if their cns isn't destroyed
    I call it excessive volume, but it is not going to result in true "overtraining."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    I call it excessive volume, but it is not going to result in true "overtraining."
    ok so the guys in the gym staying for 3 straight hours just curling are using excessive volume......so whats your opinion on taking some time off from the gym every so often or even taking it easy for week, if overtraining isn't occuring....then there shouldn't be any need to right? expecting someone is training proper volume and has their diet and sleep in check
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post
    Yes. CNS fatigue is overtraining.



    That's just overuse and too much volume. Often times too much stress on the endocrine system results in catabolic hormone production is the result of too much training, but who's to say one won't receive results doing countless sets? It may be imbalanced, unnecessary and a waste of time, but nobody is saying it won't work. As long as contraction, recovery and nutrition occur hypertrophy is possible.
    i ask the second question because it seems like training for extended periods of time on the same muscle group, that it works for awhile, people seem to see really good results...think it's the way to train but after awhile start seeing no gains at all, no increase in strength....so your saying it's mostly a recovery and nutrition thing than anything else?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Young Gotti View Post
    ok so the guys in the gym staying for 3 straight hours just curling are using excessive volume......so whats your opinion on taking some time off from the gym every so often or even taking it easy for week, if overtraining isn't occuring....then there shouldn't be any need to right? expecting someone is training proper volume and has their diet and sleep in check
    If everything is programmed correctly, you don't need a week off from the gym
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    Taking time off is useful for psychological reasons; it allows you to refocus and get some perspective. Is it necessary? Probably not.
    Check out my current log: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/195262-iforce-tropinol-testabolan.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by willc86 View Post
    that sounds good =) I will try this out for 6-8 weeks see how it goes.

    So, Should I lift heavy each workout? like example Monday go heavy and thursday go heavy again or go a bit lighter? And when I mean heavy, hit fatigue everyset
    I am going to start this, but there is barely any arm work outs or triceps O_o is that ok?
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    Quote Originally Posted by willc86 View Post
    I am going to start this, but there is barely any arm work outs or triceps O_o is that ok?
    You don't need a lot of direct arm training. Close-grip and weighted chins blast the hell out of the arms anyways. I maybe do 3-4 sets of direct bicep work a week since they're a relatively unimportant muscle. If you want a bit more tricep/delt volume, then superset dips on Monday when you do pullups.
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    ok thanks. you guys been great help! So much information though!! lol OT just still confuses me, but I do not think I am heading towards that direction; so I should be doing ok, lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Young Gotti View Post
    i understand, i'm just quoting an article, but even with all those variables....overtraining is still very possible
    it sure is. and i know this is only from personal experience and not scientific at all. since i started competing in sports and weightlifting at the ripe old age of 7, im 38 now, i have only met 1 person to overtrain. and i dont mean under recover, i mean overtrain. in that his appetite went out of whack. he developed insomnia and huge mood swings. he had been working hard for over a year to get to that state. it took him over 4 months to recover to a point to start to have good workouts again. and several more months to get back up to where he was.

    that doesnt sound to common if in 30 years i only know of 1 case. and it sure doesnt sound like what most people think is overtraining. most people take a week off or deload for 1 week and they come back stronger and think they were overtrained. over training has many other symptoms other than regressed strength or work capacity.
    you can call me "ozzie" for short.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Whoever coined the term overtraining needs to be shot. Overtraining is primarily a CNS issue; overuse is a completely different issue. 99% of people that think they are overtraining are not. Unless you're consistently training >90% of your 1RM 2-3x/week, you're not going to overtrain and there are ways in which you can do that and still not overtrain.
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    For the purpose of understanding CNS fatigue as it relates to physiological overtraining...Has anyone explained how nerve impulses are sent in the body? If not, understanding the perturbations that occur in the nerves, especially the CNS when a command is directed from the brain to the periphery (muscles) will be useful. By explain such, you can visualize just what a nerve goes through, and better, the differences in signal amplitude and nerve usage in heavy squat vs. 3 hours of curling.

    Br
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    the differences in signal amplitude and nerve usage in heavy squat vs. 3 hours of curling.
    What is the "signal amplitude" on the last rep to failure in a 8rm? Is it vastly different vs a 1rm? Or is it the same since effort is the same? Is the signal a mere function of the weight lifted, or the sheer effort to lift that weight?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vengeance187 View Post
    What is the "signal amplitude" on the last rep to failure in a 8rm? Is it vastly different vs a 1rm? Or is it the same since effort is the same? Is the signal a mere function of the weight lifted, or the sheer effort to lift that weight?
    That's actually a really good question. I haven't seen any research actually measuring the amplitude nerve conduction within in the CNS.

    I would have to speculate that when doing the same exercise the amplitude would be slightly less at the failure of an 8 rm vs. a 1 rm. The reason for this is because during an 8rm as muscle fibers fatigue new ones are recruited, and as such, there is a less neural use. During 1 rm or heavy dynamic effort its an all or nothing principal, where the mass of nerve fibers in the CNS recruited are going to be nearly equal to all the motor units involved in the movement.

    My point in the previous post was to discuss the quantity of nerve usage difference in intense (close to 1rm) compound movements (dead lift, squat, etc.) vs. less intense (higher rep) smaller movements (curls, flys, etc.), and then tie all that in to the way nerves send signals and the amount of work they need to perform (ion pumping and clearing inorganic phosphates) to return to baseline after sending such signals.

    Br
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    been reading numerous things about overtraining and this popped out to me

    The symptoms and consequences of overtraining have been reported to affect more than 60% of distance runners at least once during their career, 21% of athletes in the Australian swimming team during a half-year season, and more than 50% of semi-professional soccer players after a 4 month season.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    That's actually a really good question. I haven't seen any research actually measuring the amplitude nerve conduction within in the CNS.

    I would have to speculate that when doing the same exercise the amplitude would be slightly less at the failure of an 8 rm vs. a 1 rm. The reason for this is because during an 8rm as muscle fibers fatigue new ones are recruited, and as such, there is a less neural use. During 1 rm or heavy dynamic effort its an all or nothing principal, where the mass of nerve fibers in the CNS recruited are going to be nearly equal to all the motor units involved in the movement.

    My point in the previous post was to discuss the quantity of nerve usage difference in intense (close to 1rm) compound movements (dead lift, squat, etc.) vs. less intense (higher rep) smaller movements (curls, flys, etc.), and then tie all that in to the way nerves send signals and the amount of work they need to perform (ion pumping and clearing inorganic phosphates) to return to baseline after sending such signals.

    Br
    I think it has been implied, but never overtly stated until you brought it up. You kind generally assume when someone talks about training at >90% that it's on major, compound lifts and not isolation lifts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Young Gotti View Post
    been reading numerous things about overtraining and this popped out to me

    The symptoms and consequences of overtraining have been reported to affect more than 60% of distance runners at least once during their career, 21% of athletes in the Australian swimming team during a half-year season, and more than 50% of semi-professional soccer players after a 4 month season.
    Apples and a oranges. Their training load is far beyond that of a BB'ers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    I think it has been implied, but never overtly stated until you brought it up. You kind generally assume when someone talks about training at >90% that it's on major, compound lifts and not isolation lifts.



    Apples and a oranges. Their training load is far beyond that of a BB'ers.
    wasn't comparing, those numbers are just crazy to me, 50% of semi-pro soccer players....imagine the number on full time professional soccer players, thats just insane
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    Quote Originally Posted by Young Gotti View Post
    wasn't comparing, those numbers are just crazy to me, 50% of semi-pro soccer players....imagine the number on full time professional soccer players, thats just insane
    Pros also have better access to treatment, diet, trainers, easier travel, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    I would have to speculate that when doing the same exercise the amplitude would be slightly less at the failure of an 8 rm vs. a 1 rm. The reason for this is because during an 8rm as muscle fibers fatigue new ones are recruited, and as such, there is a less neural use. During 1 rm or heavy dynamic effort its an all or nothing principal, where the mass of nerve fibers in the CNS recruited are going to be nearly equal to all the motor units involved in the movement.
    Going back to this since it's interesting to me, I guess the next question is that if the case is a 1RM signal amplitude > that of a failure rep of a 8RM set is this: what would the difference be between the last rep at failure (not saying you actually have to fail per se) of a rest-paused set vs. a 1-RM? I bet they would be equivalent. Presumably it's why rest-paused sets are so good at both building muscle and strength but with significantly lower weight than your 1RM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Apples and a oranges. Their training load is far beyond that of a BB'ers.
    Their training "load"? You mean their training volume. As far as I'm aware, they don't train anywhere near their 1rm.
    That still proves this statement you made 100% false:
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Unless you're consistently training >90% of your 1RM 2-3x/week, you're not going to overtrain and there are ways in which you can do that and still not overtrain.
    And.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    I call it excessive volume, but it is not going to result in true "overtraining."
    The reason I asked the question I asked was because I've had the symptoms of overtraining myself about a year ago(headaches, night sweats, insomnia, no appetite, shakes/chills) and I never train heavier than 5rm. Most of my training over the last 4.5 years is around 8rm. I've always taken every single set to failure, minimum 6 sets per body part. I only stopped doing that 2 weeks ago because I'm giving non-linear periodization a try.(I still feel constantly burned out a year after the symptoms)
    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    That's actually a really good question. I haven't seen any research actually measuring the amplitude nerve conduction within in the CNS.

    I would have to speculate that when doing the same exercise the amplitude would be slightly less at the failure of an 8 rm vs. a 1 rm. The reason for this is because during an 8rm as muscle fibers fatigue new ones are recruited, and as such, there is a less neural use.
    I don't know of any research actually measuring it either. Are you sure there is less neural use as new fibers are recruited? Muscle fatigue is due to a number of factors(the newest found contributor being calcium ion leakage) and might not be from a reduction in neural signaling. Just because the fiber is fatigued doesn't mean the brain stops trying to send the signal to make it contract. It might, or might not. If it doesn't, then the neural signal increases to find more available fibers to recruit, rather than decreases; in which case the last rep would be more like a 1rm in terms of neural drive. Until it's measured, it's all speculation...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vengeance187 View Post
    Their training "load"? You mean their training volume. As far as I'm aware, they don't train anywhere near their 1rm.
    That still proves this statement you made 100% false:

    And.

    The reason I asked the question I asked was because I've had the symptoms of overtraining myself about a year ago(headaches, night sweats, insomnia, no appetite, shakes/chills) and I never train heavier than 5rm. Most of my training over the last 4.5 years is around 8rm. I've always taken every single set to failure, minimum 6 sets per body part. I only stopped doing that 2 weeks ago because I'm giving non-linear periodization a try.(I still feel constantly burned out a year after the symptoms)

    I don't know of any research actually measuring it either. Are you sure there is less neural use as new fibers are recruited? Muscle fatigue is due to a number of factors(the newest found contributor being calcium ion leakage) and might not be from a reduction in neural signaling. Just because the fiber is fatigued doesn't mean the brain stops trying to send the signal to make it contract. It might, or might not. If it doesn't, then the neural signal increases to find more available fibers to recruit, rather than decreases; in which case the last rep would be more like a 1rm in terms of neural drive. Until it's measured, it's all speculation...
    I think we need to differentiate between anaerobic vs. aerobic over training, as the symptoms and effects are a bit different. With anaerobic over training, as you'd experience in weight lifting, there is hyper activity in the sympathetic nervous system resulting in chronic fatigue, restlessness and irratability, insomnia, weight loss, increased resting HR, and delayed recovery. With aerobic its a case of parasympathetic dominance, and the symptoms are different (save for loss of performance) easily fatigued from exercise, depression and loss of interest, decreased resting HR, with little changes in sleep, apetite or weight.

    WRT moderate rep training to failure versus 1 RM training and their effects on the CNS and nerve usage...you bring up a good point. What I wonder is does the signal just increase because fibers are fatiguing, or is there some sort of other feedback...either from fatiguing fibers or receptors in the muscle/joint that results in an altered set of commands (versus strictly higher magnitude) being set to the muscle during a failure rep.

    It could be a combination of both. Highly trained athletes, especially those who train with submaximal loads for speed (i.e.: dynamic work and olympic lifters) appear to be able to recruit a greater number of fibers and fast twitch fibers than lesser trained or those who do not train dynamically. This might support the theory of a different set of commands being sent.

    Either way, both a 1rm and taking a set of say...greater than 80% 1rm to failure is going require a high neural drive, and thus a necessitate a period of neural recovery..of which, more than just training can impact. Mental/emotional stress can have some pretty profound impacts upon this too...which is why the best olympic lifters are basically kept communities where they do nothing but lift 6 hours day, ice/heat bath, and eat without worrying much about anything else (see - Donny Shankle and/or Jon North)

    Br
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    I just dug this out....though I haven't had time to read it yet, it appears to be a very interesting article. Anyone who wants FT please PM or email me.

    Sports Med. 2002;32(3):185-209.
    The unknown mechanism of the overtraining syndrome: clues from depression and psychoneuroimmunology.

    Armstrong LE, VanHeest JL.
    Source

    Human Performance Laboratory, Department of Kinesiology, University of Connecticut, Storrs, Connecticut 06269-1110, USA.

    Abstract

    When prolonged, excessive training stresses are applied concurrent with inadequate recovery, performance decrements and chronic maladaptations occur. Known as the overtraining syndrome (OTS), this complex condition afflicts a large percentage of athletes at least once during their careers. There is no objective biomarker for OTS and the underlying mechanism is unknown. However, it is not widely recognised that OTS and clinical depression [e.g. major depression (MD)] involve remarkably similar signs and symptoms, brain structures, neurotransmitters, endocrine pathways and immune responses. We propose that OTS and MD have similar aetiologies. Our examination of numerous shared characteristics offers insights into the mechanism of OTS and encourages testable experimental hypotheses. Novel recommendations are proposed for the treatment of overtrained athletes with antidepressant medications, and guidelines are provided for psychological counselling.

    PMID:11839081 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    I think we need to differentiate between anaerobic vs. aerobic over training, as the symptoms and effects are a bit different. With anaerobic over training, as you'd experience in weight lifting, there is hyper activity in the sympathetic nervous system resulting in chronic fatigue, restlessness and irratability, insomnia, weight loss, increased resting HR, and delayed recovery. With aerobic its a case of parasympathetic dominance, and the symptoms are different (save for loss of performance) easily fatigued from exercise, depression and loss of interest, decreased resting HR, with little changes in sleep, apetite or weight.

    WRT moderate rep training to failure versus 1 RM training and their effects on the CNS and nerve usage...you bring up a good point. What I wonder is does the signal just increase because fibers are fatiguing, or is there some sort of other feedback...either from fatiguing fibers or receptors in the muscle/joint that results in an altered set of commands (versus strictly higher magnitude) being set to the muscle during a failure rep.

    It could be a combination of both. Highly trained athletes, especially those who train with submaximal loads for speed (i.e.: dynamic work and olympic lifters) appear to be able to recruit a greater number of fibers and fast twitch fibers than lesser trained or those who do not train dynamically. This might support the theory of a different set of commands being sent.

    Either way, both a 1rm and taking a set of say...greater than 80% 1rm to failure is going require a high neural drive, and thus a necessitate a period of neural recovery..of which, more than just training can impact. Mental/emotional stress can have some pretty profound impacts upon this too...which is why the best olympic lifters are basically kept communities where they do nothing but lift 6 hours day, ice/heat bath, and eat without worrying much about anything else (see - Donny Shankle and/or Jon North)

    Br
    Nice post! Could one use these signs to determine when to shift from a low rep to a higher rep (bb ist) type workout? Moving from a power wave?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vengeance187 View Post
    Their training "load"? You mean their training volume. As far as I'm aware, they don't train anywhere near their 1rm.
    That still proves this statement you made 100% false:

    And.

    The reason I asked the question I asked was because I've had the symptoms of overtraining myself about a year ago(headaches, night sweats, insomnia, no appetite, shakes/chills) and I never train heavier than 5rm. Most of my training over the last 4.5 years is around 8rm. I've always taken every single set to failure, minimum 6 sets per body part. I only stopped doing that 2 weeks ago because I'm giving non-linear periodization a try.(I still feel constantly burned out a year after the symptoms)I don't know of any research actually measuring it either. Are you sure there is less neural use as new fibers are recruited? Muscle fatigue is due to a number of factors(the newest found contributor being calcium ion leakage) and might not be from a reduction in neural signaling. Just because the fiber is fatigued doesn't mean the brain stops trying to send the signal to make it contract. It might, or might not. If it doesn't, then the neural signal increases to find more available fibers to recruit, rather than decreases; in which case the last rep would be more like a 1rm in terms of neural drive. Until it's measured, it's all speculation...
    Load as in overall time training including aerobic and anaerobic, which is something that a BB'er is not going to even approach. Of course, all of this is looking at the training itself in a nutshell; if you're working 60 hours/week, your threshold is going to lower.

    You have to look at it in this respect as well: BB'ers train muscles, not movements. I have no idea what your template was, but the common training of a muscle 1x/week leaves more recovery time compared to something like a conjugate system. Although not lab controlled, the easiest way to show the difference between training at 1-2RM and ~8RM is this: try a month where you work up to to a single or double 2-3x/week (3x/week if you incorporate deadlifts into back day, 2x/week for only squat and bench). What you will start to notice is a lack of progress or even diminished strength. Take a week off and then return to the 8RM scheme and compare your progression in terms of strength, mood, sleep, etc.

    The biggest problem with the whole overtraining scare is that it is something that is constantly said by people within the BB'ing community who do not wave their loads and are largely creatures of habit. It's even more absurd when you think about the amount of gear that most of them use as well. We as a whole have been conditioned to accept certain things even though there really isn't too much reason behind it. I, too, fell for the whole no more than an hour, train each muscle 1x/week crap that is written over and over and over in every magazine (unless they were covering Ronnie). The human body is capable of a lot more than most of us believe and learning our personal threshold is something that takes time and experimentation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    It could be a combination of both. Highly trained athletes, especially those who train with submaximal loads for speed (i.e.: dynamic work and olympic lifters) appear to be able to recruit a greater number of fibers and fast twitch fibers than lesser trained or those who do not train dynamically. This might support the theory of a different set of commands being sent.
    It may, but an increase in number of neural inroads may account for this as well. It may be both...
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Load as in overall time training including aerobic and anaerobic, which is something that a BB'er is not going to even approach. Of course, all of this is looking at the training itself in a nutshell; if you're working 60 hours/week, your threshold is going to lower.
    The point is you said it was impossible unless consistently training >90% 1rm, and it's not...
    From John Berardi:
    "As a side note, I think itís also important to note that overtraining stress equals the sum of the training and the non-training stress factors. Although training is the major contributor to overtraining syndrome, occupational, educational, and social stressors are accumulative and play a significant role (2). Thatís why someone whoís only training 3 days per week can indeed be overtrained. Most gym devotees would laugh if someone suggested that they could be overtrained while on a 3 day per week maintenance program but itís true. If the 3 days of training adds to some serious extracurricular stress, thatís all it might take."
    Maintenance; not >90% 1rm...
    Although not lab controlled, the easiest way to show the difference between training at 1-2RM and ~8RM is this: try a month where you work up to to a single or double 2-3x/week (3x/week if you incorporate deadlifts into back day, 2x/week for only squat and bench). What you will start to notice is a lack of progress or even diminished strength. Take a week off and then return to the 8RM scheme and compare your progression in terms of strength, mood, sleep, etc.
    I've already experienced that from 5-8rm. I don't need to do it again at 1-2rm. So it takes longer. It's not impossible as you've been saying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vengeance187 View Post
    The point is you said it was impossible unless consistently training >90% 1rm, and it's not...
    From John Berardi:
    "As a side note, I think it’s also important to note that overtraining stress equals the sum of the training and the non-training stress factors. Although training is the major contributor to overtraining syndrome, occupational, educational, and social stressors are accumulative and play a significant role (2). That’s why someone who’s only training 3 days per week can indeed be overtrained. Most gym devotees would laugh if someone suggested that they could be overtrained while on a 3 day per week maintenance program but it’s true. If the 3 days of training adds to some serious extracurricular stress, that’s all it might take."
    Maintenance; not >90% 1rm...
    I've already experienced that from 5-8rm. I don't need to do it again at 1-2rm. So it takes longer. It's not impossible as you've been saying.
    You're taking things out of context. This context is the "gym rat" type and not an athlete. While I was fighting, I would always teeter the line of being overtrained without touching anything near my 1RM. However, the 3-4 hours in the gym was only a fraction of my overall training week. The quote from Berardi's site (BTW, the article is not written by Beradi and the citation deals with endurance athletes who have train a whole lot more than most on this site) underscores something that I touched upon and that is overall stress that each person deals with daily.

    If you're going to quote me, then do so accurately. I never said it was impossible to overtrain as that's not how science works. Also, the main point that I was trying to make and that is to learn how to wave your percentages and overall volume. You have not altered your template for a long period of time and that is going to result in stagnation before it results in overtraining. This illustrates another reason the conjugate system works so well: avoiding the stagnation by not doing the same thing over and over.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja

    You're taking things out of context. This context is the "gym rat" type and not an athlete. While I was fighting, I would always teeter the line of being overtrained without touching anything near my 1RM. However, the 3-4 hours in the gym was only a fraction of my overall training week. The quote from Berardi's site (BTW, the article is not written by Beradi and the citation deals with endurance athletes who have train a whole lot more than most on this site) underscores something that I touched upon and that is overall stress that each person deals with daily.

    If you're going to quote me, then do so accurately. I never said it was impossible to overtrain as that's not how science works. Also, the main point that I was trying to make and that is to learn how to wave your percentages and overall volume. You have not altered your template for a long period of time and that is going to result in stagnation before it results in overtraining. This illustrates another reason the conjugate system works so well: avoiding the stagnation by not doing the same thing over and over.
    I think everyone reads the endurance and performance studies too I've when most of us really should be focused mainly on how to look better. Which in most cases will not be the best ways for performance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattrag View Post
    I think everyone reads the endurance and performance studies too I've when most of us really should be focused mainly on how to look better. Which in most cases will not be the best ways for performance.
    The whole nutrient timing belief all stems from endurance athletes as well (they took it a step further, though).
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