What is over training?

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  1. So, is this a good work out for bulking?

    Chest/biceps/back/legs
    set 1 - 12-15 reps Light
    set 2 - 12-15 reps Light/moderate (almost hits fatigue but can keep going if I wanted too)
    set 3 - 7-10 reps - moderate heavy(fatigued)
    set 4 - 4-6 reps - really heavy (faitgued)

    abs

    lots of reps moderate weight to failure each


  2. Quote Originally Posted by willc86 View Post
    So, is this a good work out for bulking?

    Chest/biceps/back/legs
    set 1 - 12-15 reps Light
    set 2 - 12-15 reps Light/moderate (almost hits fatigue but can keep going if I wanted too)
    set 3 - 7-10 reps - moderate heavy(fatigued)
    set 4 - 4-6 reps - really heavy (faitgued)

    abs

    lots of reps moderate weight to failure each
    Bulking has much more to do with your diet.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys

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  3. Yeah, I am eating good now. Finally got my diet packed. I am trying to hit 50ish grams of protein each meal now, but still slowly getting there. But I eat good qualities of food like

    10 eggs yogurt bannana

    2 cups brown rice 1 chicken 1 scoop protein

    full serving weight gainer

    ect.... 6 times a day

    But I just want to make sure I have my work out packed. I am just a bit confused on whats best for developing size and mass

    like I seen people be like 5 set of 4-5 reps fatiguing each set

    then people say hit your heavy weight on your last 1 or 2 sets, which is what I have been doing.

    I see people saying do 3 min rest, 40 sec rest 1 min rest. so all this information is just like, dam...what do I do.

    I do try to switch it up every 2 months.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by willc86
    So, is this a good work out for bulking?

    Chest/biceps/back/legs
    set 1 - 12-15 reps Light
    set 2 - 12-15 reps Light/moderate (almost hits fatigue but can keep going if I wanted too)
    set 3 - 7-10 reps - moderate heavy(fatigued)
    set 4 - 4-6 reps - really heavy (faitgued)

    abs

    lots of reps moderate weight to failure each
    A good split is chest/biceps -off-legs/abs-off-back/tricep-off-shoulders-off-off as for sets,ect

    Pick 4 exercises (2 for each part or 3 for lagging part1 for other) 3 to 4 sets 8 to 12 reps for upper body and 12 to 20 for lower /abs*hypertrophy ranges*every 4 to 8 weeks or so switch either rep range from hypertrophy to strenght *3-6* and go heavy or add a different exercise to the mix.
    Online community manager/lead rep of Chaos and Pain,LLC and Fundamental Nutrition.Check us out!chaosandpain.com fnsupps.com Follow me on instagram:@pyrobatt

  5. Quote Originally Posted by willc86 View Post
    Yeah, I am eating good now. Finally got my diet packed. I am trying to hit 50ish grams of protein each meal now, but still slowly getting there. But I eat good qualities of food like

    10 eggs yogurt bannana

    2 cups brown rice 1 chicken 1 scoop protein

    full serving weight gainer

    ect.... 6 times a day

    But I just want to make sure I have my work out packed. I am just a bit confused on whats best for developing size and mass

    like I seen people be like 5 set of 4-5 reps fatiguing each set

    then people say hit your heavy weight on your last 1 or 2 sets, which is what I have been doing.

    I see people saying do 3 min rest, 40 sec rest 1 min rest. so all this information is just like, dam...what do I do.

    I do try to switch it up every 2 months.
    Rest depends of how heavy it is. Working up to a max double will require more rest between sets than a set of 12. Honestly, it sounds like you need to do the thing that everybody has to do: trial and error and learn what works specifically for you.

    As far as changing it up goes, there is no reason to change your routine just for the sake of changing it. If you're still seeing results from it in terms of both size and strength, then there is no reason to change it.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys

    •   
       


  6. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja

    Rest depends of how heavy it is. Working up to a max double will require more rest between sets than a set of 12. Honestly, it sounds like you need to do the thing that everybody has to do: trial and error and learn what works specifically for you.

    As far as changing it up goes, there is no reason to change your routine just for the sake of changing it. If you're still seeing results from it in terms of both size and strength, then there is no reason to change it.
    Agreed
    Online community manager/lead rep of Chaos and Pain,LLC and Fundamental Nutrition.Check us out!chaosandpain.com fnsupps.com Follow me on instagram:@pyrobatt

  7. whats your thoughts on this i train legs once a week and have done for long time but i lift heavy and so after heavy squats 5 heavy sets 3 heavy leg press 3 sets calfs 3 set leg extentions 4 sets of romanian deadlift heavy thats my leg work out takes about an hour i am absalutly broke up for most of the week and only start to feel good by the time its back to legs 1 week later other days im training upper body about 5 days a week

  8. Quote Originally Posted by viagra69
    whats your thoughts on this i train legs once a week and have done for long time but i lift heavy and so after heavy squats 5 heavy sets 3 heavy leg press 3 sets calfs 3 set leg extentions 4 sets of romanian deadlift heavy thats my leg work out takes about an hour i am absalutly broke up for most of the week and only start to feel good by the time its back to legs 1 week later other days im training upper body about 5 days a week
    That's quite a volume. Are you lifting close to your 1RM? Are you adding weight on every workout? Are you adding mass?
    Check out my current log: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/195262-iforce-tropinol-testabolan.html

  9. not realy making much in the line of gains squat was at about 160kg romanian dead at 150kg for a long time went on a course of test prop and primo sq went to 180kg romanian to 170kg when i came off during pct didnt push myself to the max just finished pct and got a bad flu so not realy sure where i am strength wise now havnt tried my max but wud squat about 150kg and romanian about the same during pct just back this week after the flu im a hard gainer but short at 5.7 probably down to about 183 after this flu

  10. ^^ do you guys REALLY think thats alot of volume.. I feel like i must be seriously overdoing it, if thats the case...
    Im doing about 15 sets for legs (4 leg curl 4 squat 4 leg pres or hax 4 sldl) and im really never sore for more than 3 days ... i feel like you're not eating enough or sleeping enough if your sore for a whole week. either that or you're dehydrated, and drinking booze..?

  11. dont drink at all the very odd time that would be it.i dont drink alot of water outside the gym would drink alot when training but when i do drink wud normaly have to visit the jacks fairly soon after so i think i am hydrated would get 8-9hours sleep i wouldnt be a deep sleeper anything would wake me up diet is good would get about 200gr of protein a day 4-5 meals on a good day might get 220gr

  12. sorry ment to say these lifts wudnt be 1rm squats about 4 reps romanians about 6 or 7

  13. Quote Originally Posted by viagra69 View Post
    whats your thoughts on this i train legs once a week and have done for long time but i lift heavy and so after heavy squats 5 heavy sets 3 heavy leg press 3 sets calfs 3 set leg extentions 4 sets of romanian deadlift heavy thats my leg work out takes about an hour i am absalutly broke up for most of the week and only start to feel good by the time its back to legs 1 week later other days im training upper body about 5 days a week
    If you're knocking that out in about an hour, then it must not be that heavy in comparison to your 1RM. Warming up and the squats alone would take about 30 minutes.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  14. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    If you're body is not conditioned for a particular phase, then the recovery will take longer, but, as the body adapts, your recovery will increase. Just because your body aches does not mean that you need time off. It could be from an overuse injury, but it could also be from inadequate cool-down, lack of mobility, or you could just need a good MFR session.

    The point of my post is that people are far too quick to throw out overtraining and think that it's very easy to do when it's not. The body is not that fragile and people need to quit acting as though overtraining is something that happens overnight. It takes months to reach a truly overtrained state.
    ^ This post. I'm not meaning to disrespect anyone else that participated in this thread, but this post was amongst the only ones with the proper understanding of what the term actually means.

    Overtraining is the most abused word in the lifting community. Overtraining and overuse are not the same thing. Overtraining refers to the CNS and it's very difficult to do. You can train too much, but that doesn't mean you're overtraining. You start bordering what is necessary and what isn't.

    Fatigue and aches can be the result of several different things. The overuse injury is often one of the most highly believed "overtraining" injury, but it's not. It's overuse. When you lift weights, your nervous system is in control. A car only runs out of gas when the person operating us fails to do his part.

    Overtraining is also something that doesn't occur in a single session.

    Rodja, you're becoming one of my favorite posters on this board, along with ZiR RED.

    A great explanation of it is by Christian Thibaudeau. It actually made his #5 on dumb training.

    Dumb Thing #5: Misunderstanding "Overtraining" If you ask me, "overtraining" is the most abused and misunderstood concept in the entire strength training community! Perform more than twelve sets for a muscle during a workout and you'll undoubtedly be accused of overtraining. Train a muscle group more often than two times per week? Overtraining! Relying on set extending methods such as drop sets, pre or post-fatigue, or rest-pause? What are you doing? Don't you know that's overtraining and you'll shrink faster than your masculine pride on a snowy Canadian winter night?!


    Yes, overtraining can eventually become a problem when it comes to your training performance, injury risks, and growth. However, it's far from being as common as most people would have you believe.


    The problem stems from the term itself, which is composed of "over" and "training." Because of that term, individuals are quick to equate it to "training too much." So every time someone thinks that a routine has too much volume, frequency, or advanced methods, they're quick to pull the "overtraining" trigger. When someone is tired and has a few bad workouts he'll also automatically assume that he's "overtraining." In both cases this shows a misunderstanding of what overtraining really is.


    Overtraining is a physiological state caused by an excess accumulation of physiological, psychological, emotional, environmental, and chemical stress that leads to a sustained decrease in physical and mental performance, and that requires a relatively long recovery period. There are four important elements in that scientific definition:


    "Physiological state:" Overtraining isn't an action (i.e. training too much) but a state in which your body can be put through. In that regard, it's similar to a burnout, a medical depression, or an illness.


    "Caused by an excess accumulation of physiological, psychological, emotional, environmental, and chemical stress:" Stress has both a localized and a systemic effect. Every type of stress has a systemic impact on the body; this impact isn't limited to the structures involved directly in the "stressful event." This systemic impact is caused by the release of stress hormones (glucocorticoids like cortisol for example) and an overexertion of the adrenal glands.


    So every single type of stressor out there can contribute to the onset of an overtraining state. Job troubles, tension in a relationship, death in the family, pollutants and chemicals in the air we breathe, the food we eat or the water we drink, etc. can all contribute to overtraining. Training too much is obviously another stress factor that can facilitate the onset of the overtraining state, but it's far from being the sole murder suspect.


    "Leads to a sustained decrease in physical and mental performance:" The key term here is sustained. Some people will have a few sub par workouts and will automatically assume they're overtraining. Not the case. It could simply be acute or accumulated fatigue due to poor recovery management or a deficient dietary approach.


    A real overtraining state/syndrome takes months of excessive stress to build up. And when someone reaches that state, it'll take several weeks (even several months) of rest and recovery measures to get back to a "normal" physiological state. If a few days of rest or active rest can get your performance back up to par, you weren't overtraining. You probably suffered from some fatigue accumulation, that's all.

    Worst case scenario, you might enter an overreaching state (a transient form of overtraining). Reaching that point will normally take 10-14 days of rest and active rest to get back up to normal. Overreaching can actually be used as a training tool since the body normally surcompensates (with rest) following overreaching. Elite athletes often include periods of drastic training stress increases followed by a 10-14 day taper to reach a peak performance level on a certain date.


    "That requires a relatively long recovery period:" As we already mentioned, reaching a true overtraining state takes a long period of excessive stress and requires a long period of recovery. The following graphic illustrates the various steps toward the onset of an overtraining state as well as the recovery period needed to get out of these different levels.

    The spectrum goes from acute fatigue, which is the normal fatigue caused by a very intense/demanding workout, right up to a true overtraining state. In all my life, I've seen two cases of real overtraining. In both cases this happened to two high level athletes right after the Olympic Games (accumulation of the super intense training, the stress of qualifying for the Olympics, and the stress of the Olympics themselves).


    Understand that most international level athletes will train close to 30-40 hours per week. Obviously not all of that is spent in the gym; they also have their sport practice, speed and agility work, conditioning work, etc., but these still represent a physiological stress. Yet rarely will these athletes reach a true overtraining state.


    How could training for a total of five or six hours per week cause overtraining? Fatigue, yes, mostly due to improper recovery management, a very low level of general physical preparation (conditioning level), or a mediocre work capacity.


    To paraphrase Louie Simmons, North American athletes are out of shape. Being out of shape (low level of general preparedness or conditioning) means you can't recover well from a high volume of work. But the more work you can perform, without going beyond your capacity to recover, the more you'll progress. So in that regard, poor work capacity can be the real problem behind lack of gains from a program.


    By continually avoiding performing a high level of physical work, you'll never increase your work capacity and will suffer from accumulated fatigue as soon as you increase your training stress ever so slightly. Obviously, the solution isn't to jump into mega-volume training, but to gradually include more GPP work as well as periods of increased training stress that will increase in duration and frequency over time.

    Ask any of my clients — they must all go through four-week phases of very high volume work interlaced between phases of "normal" volume training (or even phases of low volume). And as they progress through the system, the high volume phases will become more frequent (as their work capacity improves) or last longer.
    Former Marine, UT-BSN, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, CSCS

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja

    If you're knocking that out in about an hour, then it must not be that heavy in comparison to your 1RM. Warming up and the squats alone would take about 30 minutes.
    True. He said heavy. Heavy for me means between 5RM and 1RM. If it's lighter weight I would think that it doesn't justify week long soreness unless he has a screwed up diet.

    Viagra69 what's your macros breakdown and daily cals intake? Your proteins should be higher at about 2g per lb, IMHO.
    Check out my current log: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/195262-iforce-tropinol-testabolan.html

  16. warm up would be already done before i start, streaching rowing machine and light leg extentions before i sart my workout which takes about an hour this takes about 10 mins then its stright into squats maybe i need to warm up more not sure on this one.i also should have included that my upper body recovers much quicker than my legs at 3 to 4 days while legs are 7 to 8 days

  17. thanks for the thoughts on this one lads so heres generaly what my day looks like in the food department
    wake up 8am 6grams of l-glutamine
    8.20 27grams of porridge some rasins and some natual honey,i find it hard to eat early in the day hence 27grams porridge
    8.45 protein shake 39grams protein 29grams carbs 7grams fat

    this fills me until about 1 o clock then its a small dinner whatever is in the fridge big chicken breast with rice or pasta not sure of how much carbs but i put the chicken breast in at about 35grams protein there 200gram breasts before there cooked or else its a piece of fish with rice or pasta about the same in protein normaly have a handfull of mixed nuts after this feed

    about 4 its a sandwich chicken cheese and ham on brown bread or whatever is in the fridge along the lines of above

    about 5 its 5grams of l-glutamine followed by pre workout drink after about 15mins then its off to the gym
    train then about 6.30 gym is done 3 bcaa tablets and go for a swim sauna after about 15 mins its a protein shake same type as morning

    normaly home for about 7.30 then its a big dinner meat veg potatoes pasta or stew whatever is for dinner but good ouality food home cooked

    before i go to bed then its either protein shake or eggs if eggs its 2 whole eggs plus 5 whites
    probably be a bit of fruit bananna apple or orange thrown in during the day not realy a sweets or choclate fan

  18. Dam, this is getting a bit tad confusing now. lol. I go heavy on all my sets. and I do a lot of legs

    squats
    leg extension
    leg presses
    leg curls
    2 calf machine
    hamstring
    DB lounges

    usually about 4 sets on each and the last 2 sets are usually heavy hitting about 6-7 reps and I do add weight each time.



    And seems like you are eating right to me.

  19. Define "heavy" and I don't mean the actual weight. I mean approximately what percentage of your 1RM are you doing for these working sets.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  20. Not taking out calculator, but you seem like you're on a weighloss diet. Do yourself a favour and actually count all calories and macros you get daily for few days.
    What's your weight (you mentioned something about 180lb?), bf%, height, age?

    Quote Originally Posted by viagra69
    thanks for the thoughts on this one lads so heres generaly what my day looks like in the food department
    wake up 8am 6grams of l-glutamine
    8.20 27grams of porridge some rasins and some natual honey,i find it hard to eat early in the day hence 27grams porridge
    8.45 protein shake 39grams protein 29grams carbs 7grams fat

    this fills me until about 1 o clock then its a small dinner whatever is in the fridge big chicken breast with rice or pasta not sure of how much carbs but i put the chicken breast in at about 35grams protein there 200gram breasts before there cooked or else its a piece of fish with rice or pasta about the same in protein normaly have a handfull of mixed nuts after this feed

    about 4 its a sandwich chicken cheese and ham on brown bread or whatever is in the fridge along the lines of above

    about 5 its 5grams of l-glutamine followed by pre workout drink after about 15mins then its off to the gym
    train then about 6.30 gym is done 3 bcaa tablets and go for a swim sauna after about 15 mins its a protein shake same type as morning

    normaly home for about 7.30 then its a big dinner meat veg potatoes pasta or stew whatever is for dinner but good ouality food home cooked

    before i go to bed then its either protein shake or eggs if eggs its 2 whole eggs plus 5 whites
    probably be a bit of fruit bananna apple or orange thrown in during the day not realy a sweets or choclate fan
    Check out my current log: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/195262-iforce-tropinol-testabolan.html

  21. Quote Originally Posted by willc86 View Post
    Dam, this is getting a bit tad confusing now. lol. I go heavy on all my sets. and I do a lot of legs

    squats
    leg extension
    leg presses
    leg curls
    2 calf machine
    hamstring
    DB lounges

    usually about 4 sets on each and the last 2 sets are usually heavy hitting about 6-7 reps and I do add weight each time.



    And seems like you are eating right to me.
    I'm not trying to pick you out of the crowd, but you have way too many leg exercises. I think you'd benefit much better with a squat, deadlift, front squat, stiff-leg deadlift, and clean variation. Those machines need to be left alone. They are very detrimental to your motor pattern and natural movement.
    Former Marine, UT-BSN, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, CSCS

  22. Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post
    I'm not trying to pick you out of the crowd, but you have way too many leg exercises. I think you'd benefit much better with a squat, deadlift, front squat, stiff-leg deadlift, and clean variation. Those machines need to be left alone. They are very detrimental to your motor pattern and natural movement.
    I wouldn't say that he is doing too many leg exercises, but he does need to go more towards free weights than machines.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  23. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    I wouldn't say that he is doing too many leg exercises, but he does need to go more towards free weights than machines.
    You're right. I worded that wrong. He needs to start doing less of the exercises that he's doing and more of the multi-jointed functional exercises.
    Former Marine, UT-BSN, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, CSCS

  24. Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post
    You're right. I worded that wrong. He needs to start doing less of the exercises that he's doing and more of the multi-jointed functional exercises.
    I think he would also benefit from breaking the area into two separate days: squat+assistance and deadlifts+assistance.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  25. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    I think he would also benefit from breaking the area into two separate days: squat+assistance and deadlifts+assistance.
    I agree. Something like this.

    Lower Body 1
    3X5 Squat
    3X8 Stiff-leg deadlift
    5X3 Power Cleans
    3X10 GHR's

    Lower Body 2
    3X5 Deadlift
    3X8 Front Squat
    3X8 Lunges
    3X10 GHR's
    Former Marine, UT-BSN, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, CSCS

  26. Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post
    I agree. Something like this.

    Lower Body 1
    3X5 Squat
    3X8 Stiff-leg deadlift
    5X3 Power Cleans
    3X10 GHR's

    Lower Body 2
    3X5 Deadlift
    3X8 Front Squat
    3X8 Lunges
    3X10 GHR's
    I was (until I hurt my adductors) doing this:
    Squat 5/3/1
    Supplemental lift (e.g. low box squat, front squat, etc.)
    Uni Leg Press
    GHR
    Abs

    Deads 5/3/1
    Supplemental lift (e.g. rack pulls, deficit deads, etc.)
    Reverse Hypers
    Bulgarian split squats
    Abs

    I would also throw in a moderate, restorative day for more volume on reverse hypers, GHR, and abs.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  27. as a percentage of 1rm im a little unsure of what my 1rm is at the moment as i just finished a primo and test prop 8 week course 16th january then during pct i didnt push myself to the max worked to around 80 percent just finished pct and was feeling good when i got a bad flu knocked me out for 2 weeks no training just back this week

    dead lift i do every 2nd week as part of my back work out my 1rm is 200kg but i can get 3 or 4 reps out of this if i go to 205kg cant get it off the floor my bottom end is weak if i get a spot with the first 2 inches off the floor i can go to about 250kg but normaly just work off what i can do myself so thats always at 100 percent of 1rm

    my squat would be at 90 percent of 1rm
    romanian dead lift to be honest i dont know what my 1rm is i normaly work for 5-7 reps on this one but would be shattered by the time i put it down
    leg press again i go for 5-7 reps i would say 85 percent of 1rm but legs would be burnt off me when i stop.
    im 42 years old training since i was 12 few breaks here and there bad car crash off for about a year
    im 5.7 bf 16percent weight 182lbs lost a good bit with the flu normaly about 188lbs
    anyone anymore thoughts on my diet i thought it was pretty good? thanks for all the feedback lads
    calf press stay going until there realy burning and cant do any more 15 reps
    leg extentions 85 percent of 1rm but go to failure

  28. Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post
    I agree. Something like this.

    Lower Body 1
    3X5 Squat
    3X8 Stiff-leg deadlift
    5X3 Power Cleans
    3X10 GHR's

    Lower Body 2
    3X5 Deadlift
    3X8 Front Squat
    3X8 Lunges
    3X10 GHR's

    do that all in one day? what is GHR? thank guys

  29. Quote Originally Posted by willc86 View Post
    do that all in one day? what is GHR? thank guys
    No, it's two days (hence the 1 and 2). GHR=glute-ham raises.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  30. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    No, it's two days (hence the 1 and 2). GHR=glute-ham raises.


    oh so working out legs 2times a week is good?
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