Carbs not Required post workout

Page 1 of 3 123 Last
  1. Registered User
    anoopbal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    192
    Rep Power
    13080

    Carbs not Required post workout


    The recent study shows that carbs are not required in post workout protein shake:

    Carbs Not Required for Your Workout Protein Shake

  2. Registered User
    FL3X MAGNUM's Avatar
    Stats
    6'5"  220 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Michigan
    Age
    28
    Posts
    11,394
    Rep Power
    4187006

    I'm sure it's an interesting read....but I can't bring myself to open it and read. Long live my carbs.
  3. Registered User
    Whacked's Avatar
    Stats
    5'11"  210 lbs.
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Cali
    Posts
    5,415
    Rep Power
    481949

    Quote Originally Posted by anoopbal View Post
    The recent study shows that carbs are not required in post workout protein shake:

    Carbs Not Required for Your Workout Protein Shake
    Carbs Not Required for Your Workout Protein ShakeBEGINNER | December 19 2010

    The belief that carbs are required in your post workout protein shake is so established that the debate has been more about whether to take high gi or low gi carbs, if waxy maize is better than dextrose. and so on. But this recent study shows that carbs may not be required in the first place.


    Why carbs were needed in your protein shake?
    Protein break down: Protein breakdown is increased after workouts. Carbs increase insulin levels and can blunt protein breakdown after your workouts. This is the major reason why carbs are added with protein shakes.

    Protein Synthesis: Carbs can increase insulin levsl and slightly increase protein synthesis.

    Glycogen: Restore glycogen in the muscle. Unless you are doing a lot of high reps, glycogen is not really depleted with weight training.

    What was the study design?
    9 recreationally active subjects were randomly assigned to a Protein only group and a protein + carbs group.
    Participants performed 2 trials seperated by 7 days of 4 sets of leg extenions ( 8-12) for failure after an overnight fast.
    The protein group consumed 25 gms of whey protein while the protein+carbs group consumed the protein with 50 gms of malto dextrin
    What were the results of the study?
    As predicted, the glucose and insulin levels was significantly greater for the protein +carbs group
    But, guess what, there was no difference in protein synthesis or protein breakdown between the protein only group and the protein plus carbs group.
    Are there other studies to support?
    30 gms vs 90 gms: Another recent study looked if 90 gms of carbs +amino acids can decrease protein breakdown compared to 30gms+amino acids after resistance training. But they didnít find any significant difference between the groups.

    Though study lacked a group with only protein to see if there is any difference if only protein was ingested, the results are consistent with this study.

    Practical Applications
    There is no reason to add carbs in your post wrokout shake to decrease protein breakdown or increase protein synthesis.
    The protein itself in the shake is enough to increase insulin levels and decrease protein breakdown to the maximum extent
    A-Minds HYPE-SLAYER! All posts & feedback are guaranteed to be unsolicited and legit
    "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge. Fools despise wisdom & instruction"
    Proverbs 1:7
    •   
       

  4. Registered User
    MAxximal's Avatar
    Stats
    5'11"  235 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Elysium
    Age
    37
    Posts
    6,902
    Rep Power
    122079

    I use Glutamine
    SNS Online Representative
    Maxximal @ seriousnutritionsolutions.com

    Got Glycophase ...?


  5. Registered User
    bdcc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Oxford, England
    Posts
    10,153
    Rep Power
    10502186

    Carbs aren't 'required' post workout. Glycogen levels are shown to replenish in study groups who drank just water.

    I like to look at it the other way. If you are building muscle, why would you not take advantage of your workout by loading up on nutrients post workout?

    The insulin spike can used to blunt cortisol and improve the cortisol:testosterone ratio.

    If I was solely trying to lose fat then I would go with a high dose of glutamine and glycine.
  6. Registered User
    ZiR RED's Avatar
    Stats
    6'1"  215 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Surfside Beach, SC
    Posts
    2,529
    Rep Power
    297847

    Glutamine ..oi vey.

    The studies done with glutamine that have yielded positive results in skeletal muscle have generally incorporated an IV drip and more often than not were in burn or accident victims.

    In the studies where glutamine was ingested orally, the increase in muscle mass was SMOOTh muscle (i.e.: intestinal).

    Further, there is a lack of well set up studies that show glutmine aids in recovery or muscle growth.

    As to the study, I would be interested to see levels of protein synthesis and degradation up to 24 hours following resistance training.
    Secondly, for those consuming carbohydrates, simple nutrient partitioning theories state that the best time to consume CHO is post workout. Glycogen is partially depleted (4 x 8 leg extensions is not a very demanding lower body workout), glycogen synthase is increased, and Glut-4 proteins are translocated to the surface of the muscle cell. Together, this creates an ideal environment for optimal glucose disposal into the muscle cell.

    Br
  7. Registered User
    MAxximal's Avatar
    Stats
    5'11"  235 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Elysium
    Age
    37
    Posts
    6,902
    Rep Power
    122079

    Supplementing with glutamine enhances muscle glycogen synthesis.

    by Paul Cribb, B.H.Sci HMS



    Muscle glycogen is the storage form carbohydrate and the primary fuel of intense exercise. For bodybuilders, glycogen-full muscles mean a greater work capacity, faster recovery and muscle growth. Many bodybuilders restrict their carbohydrate intake in an effort to remain lean, this can create low muscle glycogen levels that limit recovery and the ability to train intensely. This study demonstrated that taking glutamine straight after training stimulates glycogen synthesis in muscles and appears just as effective at restoring glycogen levels as a high-dose of carbohydrates.

    The participants in this study completed three glycogen-depleting weight training sessions. After each session they received one of three different drinks (by a systemic rotation), a carbohydrate solution (61-grams), a glutamine solution (8-grams), or a combination of both. The muscle biopsy results revealed that 8 grams of glutamine was as effective as 61-grams of glucose for restoring muscle glycogen levels, while the combination of glucose and glutamine restored whole body glycogen levels more effectively than either supplement taken separately.

    These findings are fantastic for competitive bodybuilders, wrestlers, and other athletes that may restrict carbohydrate intake yet require high muscle glycogen levels for optimal performance. These results also have important implications for those that follow a low-carb diet. Taking an 8-gram serving of glutamine after exercise will restore muscle glycogen levels as effectively as a high dose of glucose. This means bodybuilders and other athletes can replenish vital muscle glycogen levels with minimal amounts of carbohydrates! Pre-contest bodybuilders can use glutamine in their carb loading phase to enhance muscle glycogen accumulation.

    Bodybuilders and other strength athletes should aim for rapid replenishment of muscle glycogen stores straight after exercise. By adding glutamine to your post-workout meals you will enhance the replenishment of vital muscle glycogen and whole body energy stores.

    This research demonstrates more important benefits of glutamine supplementation for athletes. Glutamine remains one of the most underrated, research-proven performance enhancing supplements an athlete can use.

    J.Appl.Physiol.86;6:1770-1777, 1999.
    SNS Online Representative
    Maxximal @ seriousnutritionsolutions.com

    Got Glycophase ...?


  8. Registered User
    bdcc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Oxford, England
    Posts
    10,153
    Rep Power
    10502186

    Glutamine increases glycogen synthesis and replenishes glutamine levels which is a strong indicator for overtraining.

    In low carb scenarios it works well.
  9. Registered User
    bdcc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Oxford, England
    Posts
    10,153
    Rep Power
    10502186

    Admittedly this topic has been covered so many times lol.
  10. Never enough
    Board Moderator
    EasyEJL's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  205 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Tampa, FL
    Age
    46
    Posts
    31,867
    Rep Power
    768811

    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    I like to look at it the other way. If you are building muscle, why would you not take advantage of your workout by loading up on nutrients post workout?
    What nutrients are there in carbs? particularly what tends to get used postworkout, maltodextrin or dextrose. I'll give you a hint - none. nothing but excess calories. Which isn't all bad, but is only important as part of your overall diet, the timing is meaningless.

    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    The insulin spike can used to blunt cortisol and improve the cortisol:testosterone ratio.
    and blunt gh release too.
    This space for rent

    Phenadrol Log http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...-hell-did.html - AMAZING fat loss results so far
  11. Registered User
    bdcc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Oxford, England
    Posts
    10,153
    Rep Power
    10502186

    Why wouldn't you take a high amount of carbs/calories post workout if you can afford it? It is the only time of the day I can take that much sugar without falling asleep afterwards.

    You can get nutrients post workout if you went with fresh fruit juices (which I have done). I wouldn't drink a vast amount of grape juice at any other time of the day for the reason above.
  12. Running with the Big Boys
    Board Sponsor
    Rodja's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  220 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Age
    30
    Posts
    23,085
    Rep Power
    918007

    Quote Originally Posted by anoopbal View Post
    The recent study shows that carbs are not required in post workout protein shake:

    Carbs Not Required for Your Workout Protein Shake
    2 trials of leg extensions on "recreationally active" participants is hardly an applicable sample size. The study was also not calorically controlled, which makes a huge difference (duh).

    Quote Originally Posted by MAxximal View Post
    Supplementing with glutamine enhances muscle glycogen synthesis.

    by Paul Cribb, B.H.Sci HMS



    Muscle glycogen is the storage form carbohydrate and the primary fuel of intense exercise. For bodybuilders, glycogen-full muscles mean a greater work capacity, faster recovery and muscle growth. Many bodybuilders restrict their carbohydrate intake in an effort to remain lean, this can create low muscle glycogen levels that limit recovery and the ability to train intensely. This study demonstrated that taking glutamine straight after training stimulates glycogen synthesis in muscles and appears just as effective at restoring glycogen levels as a high-dose of carbohydrates.

    The participants in this study completed three glycogen-depleting weight training sessions. After each session they received one of three different drinks (by a systemic rotation), a carbohydrate solution (61-grams), a glutamine solution (8-grams), or a combination of both. The muscle biopsy results revealed that 8 grams of glutamine was as effective as 61-grams of glucose for restoring muscle glycogen levels, while the combination of glucose and glutamine restored whole body glycogen levels more effectively than either supplement taken separately.

    These findings are fantastic for competitive bodybuilders, wrestlers, and other athletes that may restrict carbohydrate intake yet require high muscle glycogen levels for optimal performance. These results also have important implications for those that follow a low-carb diet. Taking an 8-gram serving of glutamine after exercise will restore muscle glycogen levels as effectively as a high dose of glucose. This means bodybuilders and other athletes can replenish vital muscle glycogen levels with minimal amounts of carbohydrates! Pre-contest bodybuilders can use glutamine in their carb loading phase to enhance muscle glycogen accumulation.

    Bodybuilders and other strength athletes should aim for rapid replenishment of muscle glycogen stores straight after exercise. By adding glutamine to your post-workout meals you will enhance the replenishment of vital muscle glycogen and whole body energy stores.

    This research demonstrates more important benefits of glutamine supplementation for athletes. Glutamine remains one of the most underrated, research-proven performance enhancing supplements an athlete can use.

    J.Appl.Physiol.86;6:1770-1777, 1999.
    This study would have been applicable if most people only used carbs post-training. EVERYONE knows to take protein after training and it is best to do so in conjunction with carbs.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys
  13. Registered User
    MAxximal's Avatar
    Stats
    5'11"  235 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Elysium
    Age
    37
    Posts
    6,902
    Rep Power
    122079

    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    Glutamine increases glycogen synthesis and replenishes glutamine levels which is a strong indicator for overtraining.

    In low carb scenarios it works well.
    YESSSS!!!!!
    SNS Online Representative
    Maxximal @ seriousnutritionsolutions.com

    Got Glycophase ...?


  14. Never enough
    Board Moderator
    EasyEJL's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  205 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Tampa, FL
    Age
    46
    Posts
    31,867
    Rep Power
    768811

    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    Why wouldn't you take a high amount of carbs/calories post workout if you can afford it? It is the only time of the day I can take that much sugar without falling asleep afterwards.

    You can get nutrients post workout if you went with fresh fruit juices (which I have done). I wouldn't drink a vast amount of grape juice at any other time of the day for the reason above.
    because its about total daily calories, please show me somewhere where its been proven to be advantageous to take in high amounts of carbs any time? I'd rather have my total calories spread though the day more evenly than slam an extra 200 cals in fairly useless sugars right post workout and then have to clip those calories out of my solid food meal I have an hour later.

    I've never found a study showing that carbs + protein is better than protein alone after workouts other than fasted first thing in the morning workouts.
    This space for rent

    Phenadrol Log http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...-hell-did.html - AMAZING fat loss results so far
  15. Registered User
    MAxximal's Avatar
    Stats
    5'11"  235 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Elysium
    Age
    37
    Posts
    6,902
    Rep Power
    122079

    Whey and casein are the Best post-workout shake?

    http://esnl.tamu.edu/Publications/JS...643-653-06.pdf
    SNS Online Representative
    Maxximal @ seriousnutritionsolutions.com

    Got Glycophase ...?


  16. Registered User
    bdcc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Oxford, England
    Posts
    10,153
    Rep Power
    10502186

    I use it to take advantage of the anabolic nature of insulin at the time when I am most insulin sensitive.

    I can say wholeheartedly that I am leaner doing this than consuming my carb ration in smaller amounts of carbs throughout the day.
  17. Registered User
    bdcc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Oxford, England
    Posts
    10,153
    Rep Power
    10502186

    Quote Originally Posted by MAxximal View Post
    Whey and casein are the Best post-workout shake?

    http://esnl.tamu.edu/Publications/JS...643-653-06.pdf
    Interesting study.
  18. Registered User
    bdcc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Oxford, England
    Posts
    10,153
    Rep Power
    10502186

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3132449

    "The results suggest that delaying the ingestion of a carbohydrate supplement post-exercise will result in a reduced rate of muscle glycogen storage."

    This was comparing an identical carbohydrate solution taken immediately post workout to two hours post workout.
  19. Registered User
    Movin_weight's Avatar
    Stats
    6'1"  230 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    chi-town
    Posts
    802
    Rep Power
    1886

    The original article posted is garbage, and basically someone summing upmtwo studies they dont understand. The point of post workout carbs is for the resynthesis of glycogen, not to blunt protein degradation. Several studies have shown the benefit of adding protein To pwo carbs following endurance training leads to faster recovery of glycogen and reduced protein degradation than carbs alone.

    So basically in regards to post workout carbs it's going to depend on your training. If your doing 5x5 workouts with long rest periods, your not using up alot of glycogen, and won't need to pound them with your shake. High volume high rep workouts, you burn up glycogen rapidly and will want to replace it pwo. However, i agree with easyej that you don't need mass quantities of carbs, just 20g or 30g to provide enough substrate til urnnext meal. It's not a free formall pwo, u still will get fat.

    As for glutamine, it's an awesome compound that can be converted to glucose and be used for energy, or stored as glycogen. It also helps with them clearing of toxic nitrogen
    During periods of high protein breakdown (pwo). Definitely a great addition after an intense training session.
  20. Registered User
    Movin_weight's Avatar
    Stats
    6'1"  230 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    chi-town
    Posts
    802
    Rep Power
    1886

    But then again the research we have mostly pertains to athletes trying to maximize performance on a daily basis,'and cannot be directly related to bodybuilding,'where body comp is the main goal.
  21. Running with the Big Boys
    Board Sponsor
    Rodja's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  220 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Age
    30
    Posts
    23,085
    Rep Power
    918007

    Surprised this hasn't been added, too: there is a huge difference in eating for performance and eating for aesthetics. If you're training 2x/day for a sport, then you'll need a lot of carbs after training (simple and complex).
    M.Ed. Ex Phys
  22. Registered User
    MAxximal's Avatar
    Stats
    5'11"  235 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Elysium
    Age
    37
    Posts
    6,902
    Rep Power
    122079
    SNS Online Representative
    Maxximal @ seriousnutritionsolutions.com

    Got Glycophase ...?


  23. Never enough
    Board Moderator
    EasyEJL's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  205 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Tampa, FL
    Age
    46
    Posts
    31,867
    Rep Power
    768811

    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3132449

    "The results suggest that delaying the ingestion of a carbohydrate supplement post-exercise will result in a reduced rate of muscle glycogen storage."

    This was comparing an identical carbohydrate solution taken immediately post workout to two hours post workout.
    did you read the study?

    Twelve male cyclists exercised continuously for 70 min on a cycle ergometer at 68% VO2max, interrupted by six 2-min intervals at 88% VO2max, on two separate occasions. A 25% carbohydrate solution (2 g/kg body wt) was ingested immediately postexercise (P-EX) or 2 h postexercise (2P-EX). Muscle biopsies were taken from the vastus lateralis at 0, 2, and 4 h postexercise.
    so a) cyclists not weight lifters b) was only measured at 0,2 + 4 hours post exercise.

    Yes thats valuable if you are doing endurance sports, and may have more than one session a day (where you need to replenish glycogen before the next event). Meaningless from a bodybuilding perspective where you don't likely in 90 minutes of lifting hit 50% of V02max for more than a couple minutes total. Your glycogen reserves are rather large, and a normal lifting session doesn't clip 25% off the total.
    This space for rent

    Phenadrol Log http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...-hell-did.html - AMAZING fat loss results so far
  24. Registered User
    bdcc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Oxford, England
    Posts
    10,153
    Rep Power
    10502186

    Of course I read the study.

    My point is that there are benefits to timing of carbohydrate ingestion and it isn't necessarily equal to 'spreading them throughout the day' as you suggested. The laws of thermodynamics stand but there is no denying the hormonal influence.

    Once again, if I am trying to build muscle and I can afford to ingest that much sugar for a highly anabolic insulin spike without putting on fat then I will do that. At the moment I can ingest 150g of carbs dextrose/maltodextrin usually without my bodyfat going up, if my bodyfat isn't going up I am going to consume as much as I can post workout.
  25. Never enough
    Board Moderator
    EasyEJL's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  205 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Tampa, FL
    Age
    46
    Posts
    31,867
    Rep Power
    768811

    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    Of course I read the study.

    My point is that there are benefits to timing of carbohydrate ingestion and it isn't necessarily equal to 'spreading them throughout the day' as you suggested. The laws of thermodynamics stand but there is no denying the hormonal influence.
    But for bodybuilding, it is equal. This is a bodybuilding site, not a cyclist site by the following morning, your glycogen reserves are at or near 100% whether you have immediate carbs or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    Once again, if I am trying to build muscle and I can afford to ingest that much sugar for a highly anabolic insulin spike without putting on fat then I will do that. At the moment I can ingest 150g of carbs dextrose/maltodextrin usually without my bodyfat going up, if my bodyfat isn't going up I am going to consume as much as I can post workout.
    There isn't any scientific backing for that 150g at that time making any positive difference to body comp or lean mass amount, but if it seems to be working for you then stick to it.
    This space for rent

    Phenadrol Log http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...-hell-did.html - AMAZING fat loss results so far
  26. Registered User
    bdcc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Oxford, England
    Posts
    10,153
    Rep Power
    10502186

    I must be communicating badly?

    Regarding glycogen replenishment in bodybuilding. I wrote this in post #5- "Carbs aren't 'required' post workout. Glycogen levels are shown to replenish in study groups who drank just water."

    Regarding time of day comment. In post #11- "Why wouldn't you take a high amount of carbs/calories post workout if you can afford it? It is the only time of the day I can take that much sugar without falling asleep afterwards." -
  27. Never enough
    Board Moderator
    EasyEJL's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  205 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Tampa, FL
    Age
    46
    Posts
    31,867
    Rep Power
    768811

    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    I must be communicating badly?

    Regarding glycogen replenishment in bodybuilding. I wrote this in post #5- "Carbs aren't 'required' post workout. Glycogen levels are shown to replenish in study groups who drank just water."

    Regarding time of day comment. In post #11- "Why wouldn't you take a high amount of carbs/calories post workout if you can afford it? It is the only time of the day I can take that much sugar without falling asleep afterwards." -
    Or i'm being verbally battered by my 6 year old over christmas presents to the point where I can't think.

    Still though, like I said, if it works for you then keep doing it. But theres no scientific evidence to point towards that working that way for the majority of people.
    This space for rent

    Phenadrol Log http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...-hell-did.html - AMAZING fat loss results so far
  28. Running with the Big Boys
    Board Sponsor
    Rodja's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  220 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Age
    30
    Posts
    23,085
    Rep Power
    918007

    Quote Originally Posted by MAxximal View Post
    Whey and casein are the Best post-workout shake?

    http://esnl.tamu.edu/Publications/JS...643-653-06.pdf
    Nothing new there.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys
  29. Registered User
    Jasen's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  245 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    4,048
    Rep Power
    6862

    i love weight gainers post workout
  30. Registered User
    anoopbal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    192
    Rep Power
    13080

    2 trials of leg extensions on "recreationally active" participants is hardly an applicable sample size. The study was also not calorically controlled, which makes a huge difference (duh).
    If it doesn't show the benefits on beginners, I don't expect to see anything in trained. Trained athletes are shown to have much less damage than beginners.

    The study just like any other protein study is obviously calorie controlled. these acute studies are much better than long term studies where we got no clue what they ate during a 12 week period unless you give them food packets. And they all came after an over night fast too.

    The point of post workout carbs is for the resynthesis of glycogen, not to blunt protein degradation. Several studies have shown the benefit of adding protein To pwo carbs following endurance training leads to faster recovery of glycogen and reduced protein degradation than carbs alone.
    I have bolded my answer in your post. Resistance training is different from endurance training. I don't see to much glycogen getting depleted unless you are doing lot of volume and high rep sets.

    And just so that people know glycogen do not build muscle unless it does something to protein synthesis or protein breakdown.

    Only thing I can see problematic is they only did 4 sets of 12. In real world most people, do a lot more sets for legs. There was a study which showed 9 sets of 12 depleted 36 % of muscle glycogen.
  31. Running with the Big Boys
    Board Sponsor
    Rodja's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  220 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Age
    30
    Posts
    23,085
    Rep Power
    918007

    Quote Originally Posted by anoopbal View Post
    If it doesn't show the benefits on beginners, I don't expect to see anything in trained. Trained athletes are shown to have much less damage than beginners.

    The study just like any other protein study is obviously calorie controlled. these acute studies are much better than long term studies where we got no clue what they ate during a 12 week period unless you give them food packets. And they all came after an over night fast too.
    There was no mention of a calorically controlled diet. Arguing that a short-term study is better than a long-term study is just asinine. That's a basic research principle: the larger n is (whether it be trials and/or participants), the higher the reliability.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys
  32. Registered User
    anoopbal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    192
    Rep Power
    13080

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    There was no mention of a calorically controlled diet. Arguing that a short-term study is better than a long-term study is just asinine. That's a basic research principle: the larger n is (whether it be trials and/or participants), the higher the reliability.
    Those things are pretty much the basics when you do a protein study. Phillips is one of the top researchers in this field if you are unaware. From the study:

    "Participants were asked to refrain from heavy leg exercise for 72 h prior to each of the trials, and to refrain from alcohol, caffeine, and other drugs for 24 h prior to each of the trials. Participants kept a food record for the day before their first trial and were asked to replicate the diet and approximate eating times before the second trial. Participants were only permitted to consume water during the 10h before each trial, and they were asked to obtain a full night of sleep on the evenings before each trial."

    And what has long term study got to do with the sample size n?

    And read it again what I wrote: I meant you cannot completely control someones diet in long term study unless you are feeding them food packets or lock them up in a building which is usually a problem with body composition studies.
  33. Running with the Big Boys
    Board Sponsor
    Rodja's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  220 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Age
    30
    Posts
    23,085
    Rep Power
    918007

    Quote Originally Posted by anoopbal View Post
    Those things are pretty much the basics when you do a protein study. Phillips is one of the top researchers in this field if you are unaware. From the study:

    "Participants were asked to refrain from heavy leg exercise for 72 h prior to each of the trials, and to refrain from alcohol, caffeine, and other drugs for 24 h prior to each of the trials. Participants kept a food record for the day before their first trial and were asked to replicate the diet and approximate eating times before the second trial. Participants were only permitted to consume water during the 10h before each trial, and they were asked to obtain a full night of sleep on the evenings before each trial."

    And what has long term study got to do with the sample size n?

    And read it again what I wrote: I meant you cannot completely control someones diet in long term study unless you are feeding them food packets or lock them up in a building which is usually a problem with body composition studies.
    n could be either trials or subjects. Ideally, the number is high for both of them because it leaves less chance for the numbers to occur due to random variability. Like I said, if you honestly buy that 2 sessions of leg extensions really means anything, then you're just foolish.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys
  34. Registered User
    anoopbal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    192
    Rep Power
    13080

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    n could be either trials or subjects. Ideally, the number is high for both of them because it leaves less chance for the numbers to occur due to random variability. Like I said, if you honestly buy that 2 sessions of leg extensions really means anything, then you're just foolish.
    I honestly don't think you understand the study. what do you really mean by trials here?

    This study is cross over design. you do one sets of measurements and the next time after a washout period you do the other one.Within subjects designs like these eliminate problems with genetics and motivation factors since you are using the same subjects.

    The sample size is determined by a power analysis before the study (which they did). You need just enough sample to see if you can find a significant difference. You can make any difference statistically significant, if you have a high enough sample size. So more doesn't mean good.
  35. Running with the Big Boys
    Board Sponsor
    Rodja's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  220 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Age
    30
    Posts
    23,085
    Rep Power
    918007

    Quote Originally Posted by anoopbal View Post
    I honestly don't think you understand the study. what do you really mean by trials here?

    This study is cross over design. you do one sets of measurements and the next time after a washout period you do the other one.Within subjects designs like these eliminate problems with genetics and motivation factors since you are using the same subjects.

    The sample size is determined by a power analysis before the study (which they did). You need just enough sample to see if you can find a significant difference. You can make any difference statistically significant, if you have a high enough sample size. So more doesn't mean good.
    Wow, you've just displayed that you have zero idea what you're talking about when it comes to research. It is a fundamental principle that the larger n is for a given study, the greater the statistical power becomes along with a smaller confidence interval.

    If you can't understand why n should be large, then you should stop making making broad conclusions on a given study. Understanding n is covered on the first day of any decent experimental design class, which I gather you have never taken.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys
  36. Registered User
    anoopbal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    192
    Rep Power
    13080

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Wow, you've just displayed that you have zero idea what you're talking about when it comes to research. It is a fundamental principle that the larger n is for a given study, the greater the statistical power becomes along with a smaller confidence interval.

    If you can't understand why n should be large, then you should stop making making broad conclusions on a given study. Understanding n is covered on the first day of any decent experimental design class, which I gather you have never taken.
    First, nobody ever brought up the thing about n. You wrote two trials of leg extensions is not enough and you need more trials. still trying to understand what you mean there.

    Second, where did i say more n do not mean more statistical power. Read my post again.

    You can make even a 5 lb difference in strength statistically significant if you have a large sample size. So the goal of a study is not find the LARGEST sample size, but just enough to have it significant to prove that there is a meaningful difference.

    And no reason start being condescending in your posts.
  37. Running with the Big Boys
    Board Sponsor
    Rodja's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  220 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Age
    30
    Posts
    23,085
    Rep Power
    918007

    Quote Originally Posted by anoopbal View Post
    I honestly don't think you understand the study. what do you really mean by trials here?

    This study is cross over design. you do one sets of measurements and the next time after a washout period you do the other one.Within subjects designs like these eliminate problems with genetics and motivation factors since you are using the same subjects.

    The sample size is determined by a power analysis before the study (which they did). You need just enough sample to see if you can find a significant difference. You can make any difference statistically significant, if you have a high enough sample size. So more doesn't mean good.
    This is where you said that it. Not only is this wrong (the higher n is, the greater chance your results will be accurate and no due to random chance), but it shows a lack of understanding of scientific research.

    Quote Originally Posted by anoopbal View Post
    First, nobody ever brought up the thing about n. You wrote two trials of leg extensions is not enough and you need more trials. still trying to understand what you mean there.

    Second, where did i say more n do not mean more statistical power. Read my post again.

    You can make even a 5 lb difference in strength statistically significant if you have a large sample size. So the goal of a study is not find the LARGEST sample size, but just enough to have it significant to prove that there is a meaningful difference.

    And no reason start being condescending in your posts.
    Like I said, n can represent either number of subjects or, in this case, number of trials. 2 trials doesn't mean a damn thing, especially on a isolation exercise such as a leg extension. Your position regarding sample size makes absolutely no sense. You WANT as large of a sample group of subjects as possible, but it is often not plausible.

    For example: if you have a test group of 10 and 4 show an improvement, then that is an impressive statistic; however, if you expand the sample size to 100 and only 13 show improvement, then it is not nearly as effective or as high of a ratio. Why else do you think there are 1000's of trials done on medications? You want to weed out the data and find out if you can reject the null hypothesis or if the p-value is too high to reject the null hypothesis.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys
  38. Registered User
    anoopbal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    192
    Rep Power
    13080

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    This is where you said that it. Not only is this wrong (the higher n is, the greater chance your results will be accurate and no due to random chance), but it shows a lack of understanding of scientific research.
    Rea-read my post again. It means the greater the n, greater statistical power. That doesn't mean you go for the highest number of n as possible. that's why you do a power analysis. To find the least number of sample to make your difference statistically significant.

    Have you heard about power analysis?

    Here is the definition for it: Power analysis can be used to calculate the minimum sample size required to accept the outcome of a statistical test with a particular level of confidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Like I said, n can represent either number of subjects or, in this case, number of trials. 2 trials doesn't mean a damn thing, especially on a isolation exercise such as a leg extension. Your position regarding sample size makes absolutely no sense. You WANT as large of a sample group of subjects as possible, but it is often not plausible.

    For example: if you have a test group of 10 and 4 show an improvement, then that is an impressive statistic; however, if you expand the sample size to 100 and only 13 show improvement, then it is not nearly as effective or as high of a ratio. Why else do you think there are 1000's of trials done on medications? You want to weed out the data and find out if you can reject the null hypothesis or if the p-value is too high to reject the null hypothesis.
    Can you elaborate the "two trials means a damn thing" and "1000's of trials done" things.

    I hope you understand that it is SINGLE study and by "trial" means the 2 separate groups for carbs and carbs +protein.
  39. Registered User
    Movin_weight's Avatar
    Stats
    6'1"  230 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    chi-town
    Posts
    802
    Rep Power
    1886

    Your not understanding the definition of statistical power, and reading the definition on wikipedia doesn't do your argument justice. Statistical power is basically how much you can rely on a statistical test to support or reject the hypothesis. It is related to sample size, and the larger the sample size (n), the more statistical power you have. You don't want to have the minimum sample size needed to Accept an outcome, you want the largest sample size possible to maximize validity.

    This is the only study I've been able to locate looking at this matter. one study involving 13 recreational subjects performing considerably less volume than most on this website, is not enough to make the claim that post workout carbs aren't needed after weight training. But it does spark interesting debates, and opens the door formmore research,'so it's still a good post.
  40. cmc
    cmc is offline
    Registered User
    cmc's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  193 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    237
    Rep Power
    192

    Restoring muscle glycogen is important only when doing endurance events. Normal eating will restore glycogen for regular weight workouts. If you need to carbo-load before a bodybuilding contest, for example, to look as cut as possible you would then carbo-load. But this is not a recommended practice for normal weight workouts.

    One of the belief is that carbo loading or glycogen loading increases your power or maximum aerobic output. The amount of glycogen in your muscles does nothing for strength, power or V02 max. it simply enables you to continue longer at your maximum aerobic pace. Far from increasing power, for short events (less than 2 hours), glycogen loading is a definite liability. 1. There is insufficient exercise to use the extra glycogen. 2. More important, doubling your glycogen store will increase your water and glycogen weight by 4-5lbs which will reduce your performance for shorter workouts. Extra glycogen will also create tightness and stiffness of muscles. -Colgan Institute
  •   

      
     

Similar Forum Threads

  1. post workout carbs
    By hli1022 in forum Nutrition / Health
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 01-20-2011, 09:20 PM
  2. carbs post workout
    By liftallday123 in forum Supplements
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 06-27-2010, 11:28 PM
  3. Post workout carbs??
    By AMTorres in forum Nutrition / Health
    Replies: 43
    Last Post: 06-22-2009, 09:07 AM
  4. Replies: 7
    Last Post: 07-14-2007, 10:52 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Log in

Log in