Carbs not Required post workout

[VeganMike]

Can you post the studies please.

I've read them in Men's health magazine and other weight lifting magazines. I'll try to google a bit and see what I can find and post.

[EasyEJL]

I've read them in Men's health magazine and other weight lifting magazines. I'll try to google a bit and see what I can find and post.

those aren't studies they are opinion articles Most everything i've seen showing that is based on the fasted morning workout study. So yes, if you workout first thing in the morning before eating then definitely a protein + carb shake after is nice (hydrowhey + perfect carb), but outside of that no legitimate study has shown a significant difference in body comp or nitrogen retention that i've ever found.

its a pity, I used to use it as the excuse to eat organic oreos post workout.

[ZiR RED]

those aren't studies they are opinion articles Most everything i've seen showing that is based on the fasted morning workout study. So yes, if you workout first thing in the morning before eating then definitely a protein + carb shake after is nice (hydrowhey + perfect carb), but outside of that no legitimate study has shown a significant difference in body comp or nitrogen retention that i've ever found.

its a pity, I used to use it as the excuse to eat organic oreos post workout.

Organic oreos aside...if a high caloric diet is being used for growth, a moderate to substantial part of that (45+ %) is in the form of carbohydrates, then why wouldn't you eat a significant amount of that post workout?

Post workout nutrient parititioning is shifted to bias the disposal of glucose in skeletal muscle: creatine phosphate stores have been depleted, (some) glycogen stores have been depleted, and as a result AMPK is activated and GLUT4 is translocated. Additionally, cellular metabolism is also increased, and glucose is needed to fuel protein synthesis and the repletion of fuels (glycogen and CP) - to bring the muscle fiber to homeostasis.

As such, it would make sense that consuming a vast majority of carbohydrates periworkout would be best for body composition.

Now, there's no longitudinal studies that have investigated such...so....

What would be even more interesting, would be if we could set up a study to test this hypothesis....hmmm

Br

[SweetLou321]

Organic oreos aside...if a high caloric diet is being used for growth, a moderate to substantial part of that (45+ %) is in the form of carbohydrates, then why wouldn't you eat a significant amount of that post workout?

Post workout nutrient parititioning is shifted to bias the disposal of glucose in skeletal muscle: creatine phosphate stores have been depleted, (some) glycogen stores have been depleted, and as a result AMPK is activated and GLUT4 is translocated. Additionally, cellular metabolism is also increased, and glucose is needed to fuel protein synthesis and the repletion of fuels (glycogen and CP) - to bring the muscle fiber to homeostasis.

As such, it would make sense that consuming a vast majority of carbohydrates periworkout would be best for body composition.

Now, there's no longitudinal studies that have investigated such...so....

What would be even more interesting, would be if we could set up a study to test this hypothesis....hmmm

Br

You say carbs used during the workout would be best for body comp, due the above reasons you listed correct? What carbs and overall periworkout nutrition are you refering to?

[ZiR RED]

You say carbs used during the workout would be best for body comp, due the above reasons you listed correct? What carbs and overall periworkout nutrition are you refering to?

Here is an application of the theory I previously proposed, based on what I prescribe for my clients and use on my self, assuming the client is training in the afternoon/early evening.

Breakfast - 15% CHO intake

Preworkout - 20% CHO intake
In Workout - 20-40g CHO
Post workout (shake + whole food meal ~1.5 2hr prior)- 40% CHO intake

The remaining 20-25% is split up in two smaller meals, and the final meal of the day is low in starchy CHO.

Br

[SweetLou321]

What kind of carbs are u suggesting for the intra-wo

[Emma]

I'm right there with you. I really love my post workout shake.

[Movin_weight]

Here is an application of the theory I previously proposed, based on what I prescribe for my clients and use on my self, assuming the client is training in the afternoon/early evening.

Breakfast - 15% CHO intake

Preworkout - 20% CHO intake
In Workout - 20-40g CHO
Post workout (shake + whole food meal ~1.5 2hr prior)- 40% CHO intake

The remaining 20-25% is split up in two smaller meals, and the final meal of the day is low in starchy CHO.

Br

Your not going to utilize that many carbs in such a short time period. You will most likely end up storing a large amount as fat. True the metabolic environment is ideal for nutrient uptake following resistance training, but it's not unlimited.

[anoopbal]

Organic oreos aside...if a high caloric diet is being used for growth, a moderate to substantial part of that (45+ %) is in the form of carbohydrates, then why wouldn't you eat a significant amount of that post workout?

That's a different question. The major reason for all this carb intake after post workout is blunting of protein breakdown.

Post workout nutrient parititioning is shifted to bias the disposal of glucose in skeletal muscle: creatine phosphate stores have been depleted, (some) glycogen stores have been depleted, and as a result AMPK is activated and GLUT4 is translocated. Additionally, cellular metabolism is also increased, and glucose is needed to fuel protein synthesis and the repletion of fuels (glycogen and CP) - to bring the muscle fiber to homeostasis.
As such, it would make sense that consuming a vast majority of carbohydrates periworkout would be best for body composition.

That depend on the assumption that you are depleting lot of glycogen with weight training which you are not. Or you are on a low carb diet or like an IF diet.

[Movin_weight]

This study discusses findings that pre workout carbs/aminos do not effect protein synthesis after the workout. However, this does not examine glycogen or performance... I do feel that intraworkout carbs help during high intensity high volume resistance training... but not for the average joe



J Appl Physiol. 2009 May; 106(5): 1730–1739.
Published online 2008 June 5. doi: 10.1152/japplphysiol.90395.2008. PMCID: PMC2681328

Copyright © 2009, American Physiological Society
Regulation of Protein Metabolism in Exercise and Recovery
Essential amino acid and carbohydrate ingestion before resistance exercise does not enhance postexercise muscle protein synthesis
Satoshi Fujita,1 Hans C. Dreyer,2,3 Micah J. Drummond,2,3 Erin L. Glynn,3 Elena Volpi,1 and Blake B. Rasmussen2,3

Ingestion of an essential amino acid-carbohydrate (EAA + CHO) solution following resistance exercise enhances muscle protein synthesis during postexercise recovery. It is unclear whether EAA + CHO ingestion before resistance exercise can improve direct measures of postexercise muscle protein synthesis (fractional synthetic rate; FSR). We hypothesized that EAA + CHO ingestion before a bout of resistance exercise would prevent the exercise-induced decrease in muscle FSR and would result in an enhanced rate of muscle FSR during postexercise recovery. [COLOR*********]We studied 22 young healthy subjects before, during, and for 2 h following a bout of high-intensity leg resistance exercise. The fasting control group (n = 11) did not ingest nutrients, and the EAA + CHO group (n = 11) ingested a solution of EAA + CHO 1 h before beginning the exercise bout.[/COLOR] Stable isotopic methods were used in combination with muscle biopsies to determine FSR. Immunoblotting procedures were utilized to assess cell signaling proteins associated with the regulation of FSR. We found that muscle FSR increased in the EAA + CHO group immediately following EAA + CHO ingestion (P < 0.05), returned to basal values during exercise, and remained unchanged at 1 h postexercise. Muscle FSR decreased in the fasting group during exercise and increased at 1 h postexercise (P < 0.05). However, the 2 h postexercise FSR increased by ~50% in both groups with no differences between groups (P > 0.05). Eukaryotic elongation factor 2 phosphorylation was reduced in both groups at 2 h postexercise (EAA + CHO: 39 ± 7%; fasting: 47 ± 9%; P < 0.05). We conclude that EAA + CHO ingestion before resistance exercise does not enhance postexercise FSR (protein synthesis) compared with exercise without nutrients.


This study discusses the maximum amount of protein used post workout to maximally stimulate protein synthesis... anything over 20g was apparently oxidized (utilized for energy or converted to glucose). The only reason i post this study is to show that smashing large amounts of calories post workout do not have a greater effect on protein synthesis. However, again glycogen synthesis is another story.


Ingested protein dose response of muscle and albumin protein synthesis after resistance exercise in young men 123
Daniel R Moore, Meghann J Robinson, Jessica L Fry, Jason E Tang, Elisa I Glover, Sarah B Wilkinson, Todd Prior, Mark A Tarnopolsky, and Stuart M Phillips

Abstract
Background: The anabolic effect of resistance exercise is enhanced by the provision of dietary protein.

Objectives: We aimed to determine the ingested protein dose response of muscle (MPS) and albumin protein synthesis (APS) after resistance exercise. In addition, we measured the phosphorylation of candidate signaling proteins thought to regulate acute changes in MPS.

Design: Six healthy young men reported to the laboratory on 5 separate occasions to perform an intense bout of leg-based resistance exercise. After exercise, participants consumed, in a randomized order, drinks containing 0, 5, 10, 20, or 40 g whole egg protein. Protein synthesis and whole-body leucine oxidation were measured over 4 h after exercise by a primed constant infusion of [1-13C]leucine.

Results: MPS displayed a dose response to dietary protein ingestion and was maximally stimulated at 20 g. The phosphorylation of ribosomal protein S6 kinase (Thr389), ribosomal protein S6 (Ser240/244), and the ε-subunit of eukaryotic initiation factor 2B (Ser539) were unaffected by protein ingestion. APS increased in a dose-dependent manner and also reached a plateau at 20 g ingested protein. Leucine oxidation was significantly increased after 20 and 40 g protein were ingested.

Conclusions: Ingestion of 20 g intact protein is sufficient to maximally stimulate MPS and APS after resistance exercise. Phosphorylation of candidate signaling proteins was not enhanced with any dose of protein ingested, which suggested that the stimulation of MPS after resistance exercise may be related to amino acid availability. Finally, dietary protein consumed after exercise in excess of the rate at which it can be incorporated into tissue protein stimulates irreversible oxidation.

[SweetLou321]

It seems that there is a study to counter another study, i guess the lesson is play with timing and nutrition for yourself to see what works for you, but be consistent and hit your numbers would always be more important

[SRS2000]

If you really want to get a handle on the research on a subject like this, you really need to look up and catalog all the different studies on the subject. I just set up a spreadsheet with really large cells and when reading each study make column for the main information and write notes in the cells. In this case subjects, supplement and training protocol (including timing), performance and biochemical measures, and summary of the results would work well. Then you can see a summary of all the research on just a handful of pages to get an overall picture of the available evidence.
In this case it's next to impossible to get a complete picture of protein vs. carb peri-workout nutrition from just this one study or any one study. This study simply gives you something to think about and future researchers something to dig deeper on. Anyone should be cautious about making sweeping conclusions for everyone based on a study with specific subject characteristics using a fairly narrow training protocol.

[Movin_weight]

If you really want to get a handle on the research on a subject like this, you really need to look up and catalog all the different studies on the subject. I just set up a spreadsheet with really large cells and when reading each study make column for the main information and write notes in the cells. In this case subjects, supplement and training protocol (including timing), performance and biochemical measures, and summary of the results would work well. Then you can see a summary of all the research on just a handful of pages to get an overall picture of the available evidence.
In this case it's next to impossible to get a complete picture of protein vs. carb peri-workout nutrition from just this one study or any one study. This study simply gives you something to think about and future researchers something to dig deeper on. Anyone should be cautious about making sweeping conclusions for everyone based on a study with specific subject characteristics using a fairly narrow training protocol.

Lol very true, altho I wouldn't take the time to do that unless I'm writing a review of lit, and getting grad school credit for it.

[SRS2000]

Exactly. That's what I've done for my thesis and dissertation work.

[ZiR RED]

That depend on the assumption that you are depleting lot of glycogen with weight training which you are not. Or you are on a low carb diet or like an IF diet.

Your not going to utilize that many carbs in such a short time period. You will most likely end up storing a large amount as fat. True the metabolic environment is ideal for nutrient uptake following resistance training, but it's not unlimited.

The rate of glycogen degredation is similar at varrying intensities, however, at higher intensity glycogen repleition wil occu at a faster rate in the unfed state following higher intensities since more intermediates are available. Either way, glycogenolysis is occuring (pubmed: 2055849 3758035 )
by approximately 25% following about 6 sets of leg extensions.
According to the NSCA essentials of strength and conditioning, glycogen is depleted between 20-60% following a resstance training session.


Now, this nutrition program I suggested previously is following a full body workout, with approximately 25 working sets, and most lower and upper body movements are super-setted together. It would not apply to a typical muscle and fitness 5 day split.

Therefore, I'll provide some figures to explain how I came to these prescribed percentages.

We'll use a, average man, untrained.

70 kg (154 lbs), with about 42% muscle mass gives ~ 30 kg of skeletal muscle.

At the average of 15g/kg glycogen storage. This is a total of 450g of glycogen.

Lets be on the safe side, and use a lower depletion rate - 30% - means that 135g of glycogen are depleted during the workout. This does not take into account the decrease in liver glycogen nor the blood glucose used.

If said subject is consuming 5g/kg CHO, then a total of 350g of cho are consumed per day.

This means:

20g in workout
40g post workout liquid meal
100g 2 hr prior in whole grains

Which is approximately 160g of CHO following the workout. Enough to replenish liver and muscle glycogen and provide energy for the period of time post-training where metabolism is elevated to return the body to baseline (remove H+ from blood, oxidize lactate, begin rebuilding fuels, etc.).

Br