Carbs not Required post workout

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmc View Post
    Restoring muscle glycogen is important only when doing endurance events. Normal eating will restore glycogen for regular weight workouts. If you need to carbo-load before a bodybuilding contest, for example, to look as cut as possible you would then carbo-load. But this is not a recommended practice for normal weight workouts.

    One of the belief is that carbo loading or glycogen loading increases your power or maximum aerobic output. The amount of glycogen in your muscles does nothing for strength, power or V02 max. it simply enables you to continue longer at your maximum aerobic pace. Far from increasing power, for short events (less than 2 hours), glycogen loading is a definite liability. 1. There is insufficient exercise to use the extra glycogen. 2. More important, doubling your glycogen store will increase your water and glycogen weight by 4-5lbs which will reduce your performance for shorter workouts. Extra glycogen will also create tightness and stiffness of muscles. -Colgan Institute

    I'm not going to tear this apart too much although I disagree with almost all of it. But glycogen is the main substrate used during weight training If your doing any more than say 5 reps. Phospho-creatine can sustain the energy output for a few seconds, but then glycogen becomes the main source. I mean anyone who has tried to workout carb depleted can attest that low glycogen stores equals a sh*t workout.

    Either way the argument we have is whether the use of cho immediately following exercise is beneficial, or if protein alone is enough.

    I've been searching on and off and cannot find any other studies looking at this issue. The only support I can find for the use of carbs are when they are combined with protein. The other support comes from endurance based trials, which don't compare well to this population. There are studies showing that resistance training improves glucose uptake and tolerance, which may allow for faster glycogen repletion, but if your only lifting a muscle group once per week then it wouldn't matter.

    I'm curious if there is a relationship between glycogen content and protein synthesis. Meaning does glycogen synthesis take priority over protein synthesis or visa versa, or is there no relation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Movin_weight View Post
    Your not understanding the definition of statistical power, and reading the definition on wikipedia doesn't do your argument justice. Statistical power is basically how much you can rely on a statistical test to support or reject the hypothesis. It is related to sample size, and the larger the sample size (n), the more statistical power you have. You don't want to have the minimum sample size needed to Accept an outcome, you want the largest sample size possible to maximize validity.
    I do understand the definition. You got to know a bit more about hypothesis testing and statistical significance to understand further beyond the usual "more sample size". For the 4th time, nobody ever said power will not go up with more n.

    Power analysis is HOW you find a sample size for a study. This is the basics of study design. You don't go pick up a random large number. This is because MINIMUM number of people you need depend on the alpha level, study design and the effect size you are looking for.

    They did a power analysis for their effect size and alpha level and 13 participants for a cross over design is what needed. A cross over design is a within subjects design which needs much less subjects than a between subjects design.

    There are other constraints like financial and ethical concerns when you do sample size calculations. These studies are really expensive and you have to pick the minimum number of people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Movin_weight View Post
    This is the only study I've been able to locate looking at this matter. one study involving 13 recreational subjects performing considerably less volume than most on this website, is not enough to make the claim that post workout carbs aren't needed after weight training. But it does spark interesting debates, and opens the door formmore research,'so it's still a good post.
    There was another study in the article which compared 30 gms and 90 gms of carbs + amino acids post workout which showed no difference whci further strengthens this study.

    The volume is less which I mentioned in my first post and is a valid point. But I don't know if it will make a difference since insulin went up almost 40% more and still nothing.

    Can all the people who are so concerned about the sample size and volume, find me the PERFECT study which conclusively proved to you that carbs post workout showed greater increase in muscle?
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    Quote Originally Posted by anoopbal View Post
    Can you elaborate the "two trials means a damn thing" and "1000's of trials done" things.

    I hope you understand that it is SINGLE study and by "trial" means the 2 separate groups for carbs and carbs +protein.
    2 trials, which in this instance refers to the 2 sessions of leg extensions, means NOTHING. Honestly, what the hell can you really gather from a study where there are 2 freaking trials? Any decent study will last at least 8 weeks with a preferred length of 12. The more trials you haven, then the more data you'll gather regarding a particular topic. Using this study for evidence regarding the efficacy of carbs is like applying a fishbowl to the ocean.

    Regarding medical studies, there are 1000's, if not 10's of 1000's, of trials done to gather conclusive data about the efficacy of the drug. The greater the population is represented in the data, the greater the chance it can be applied.

    Honestly, does 13 people doing 2 trials of leg extensions mean anything? No. It is a step, albeit a baby one, in the right direction, but nothing of merit can be extrapolated from this data.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    2 trials, which in this instance refers to the 2 sessions of leg extensions, means NOTHING. Honestly, what the hell can you really gather from a study where there are 2 freaking trials? Any decent study will last at least 8 weeks with a preferred length of 12. The more trials you haven, then the more data you'll gather regarding a particular topic. Using this study for evidence regarding the efficacy of carbs is like applying a fishbowl to the ocean.
    Ever heard of acute studies? You prove your hypothesis with an acute study and then if favourable go on to a long term study. That is how research works. Long term studies are expensive and you have to have strong basis for doing it than just anecdotal evidence.

    Leg extensions is the perfect exercise for studies like this. It's an isolation exercise and can target the muscle and have less problems with skill levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Regarding medical studies, there are 1000's, if not 10's of 1000's, of trials done to gather conclusive data about the efficacy of the drug. The greater the population is represented in the data, the greater the chance it can be applied.

    Honestly, does 13 people doing 2 trials of leg extensions mean anything? No. It is a step, albeit a baby one, in the right direction, but nothing of merit can be extrapolated from this data.
    Nope. Medical studies involve 4 phase trials. It only goes to Phase 1 if the hypothesis/mechanisms is proved in an vitro acute study and/or animal studies. Once it is favourbale it goes into phase 1.

    And please do not go back to his more the better. There is more to sample size than "more is better".
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    Quote Originally Posted by anoopbal View Post
    Ever heard of acute studies? You prove your hypothesis with an acute study and then if favourable go on to a long term study. That is how research works. Long term studies are expensive and you have to have strong basis for doing it than just anecdotal evidence.

    Leg extensions is the perfect exercise for studies like this. It's an isolation exercise and can target the muscle and have less problems with skill levels.



    Nope. Medical studies involve 4 phase trials. It only goes to Phase 1 if the hypothesis/mechanisms is proved in an vitro acute study and/or animal studies. Once it is favourbale it goes into phase 1.

    And please do not go back to his more the better. There is more to sample size than "more is better".
    The way you're defending this sounds like you're the one that did it yourself. Look, it's a poor study design with very limited application. Their is no merit from this study that can be applied to strength, aesthetic, or endurance sports.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    The way you're defending this sounds like you're the one that did it yourself. Look, it's a poor study design with very limited application. Their is no merit from this study that can be applied to strength, aesthetic, or endurance sports.
    Can you show the study with the best design and applicablity that you talk about that you found showing that carbs are useful after your workouts?

    And you don't understand this fieid hence. Phillips is one of the top exercise researchers who has been doing these type of studies. They know a bit of study design and sample size.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anoopbal View Post
    Can you show the study with the best design and applicablity that you talk about that you found showing that carbs are useful after your workouts?

    And you don't understand this fieid hence. Phillips is one of the top exercise researchers who has been doing these type of studies. They know a bit of study design and sample size.
    Check out all of the work done by Tipton and Ivy. It;s not exactly ground breaking information that carbs+protein make for the best post-training meal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anoopbal View Post
    There was another study in the article which compared 30 gms and 90 gms of carbs + amino acids post workout which showed no difference whci further strengthens this study.
    It does not further strengthen the study we are talking about. It may help to support the authors point, but it does not strengthen the study.

    The external validity of this study is this: after an acute bout of leg extensions in untrained subjects, carbohydrates do not enhance protein syntehsis any more than protein alone. Thats it.

    You cannot extrapolate the results to anything greater than that without making infferential leaps of faith. Hence, why at the end of any discussion, the researchers will say " we found xxxx, however, more research is needed to see if xxxx will result in xxxxx"

    Br
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Check out all of the work done by Tipton and Ivy. It;s not exactly ground breaking information that carbs+protein make for the best post-training meal.
    There are lot of studies done by Tipton and Ivy. Can you point me to the SPECIFIC ones in question pls.

    It is different having a hypothesis and way different proving that hypothesis. I haven't come across any which tested specifically the hypothesis of requirement of carbs. I will wait for your references.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anoopbal View Post
    There are lot of studies done by Tipton and Ivy. Can you point me to the SPECIFIC ones in question pls.

    It is different having a hypothesis and way different proving that hypothesis. I haven't come across any which tested specifically the hypothesis of requirement of carbs. I will wait for your references.
    Therein lies the great caveat about science.

    The hypothesis proposed by researchers are very narrow and direct. In the case of the aforementioned study, it was a few biochemical processes that are involved in protein synthesis right after resistance training.

    We forget a few things wrt to hypertrophy.
    1. Protein synthesis is an ongoing process, not just an hour or two pwo.
    2. The synthesis of new myofibrils only makes up a part of hypertrophy, thus,
    3. Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy - the merging of satellite cells and the hormones inolved in signalling this (IGF, MGF, etc.) - must also be taken into account attempting to talk about post workout CHO and hypertophy.

    Br
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAxximal View Post
    Supplementing with glutamine enhances muscle glycogen synthesis.

    by Paul Cribb, B.H.Sci HMS



    Muscle glycogen is the storage form carbohydrate and the primary fuel of intense exercise. For bodybuilders, glycogen-full muscles mean a greater work capacity, faster recovery and muscle growth. Many bodybuilders restrict their carbohydrate intake in an effort to remain lean, this can create low muscle glycogen levels that limit recovery and the ability to train intensely. This study demonstrated that taking glutamine straight after training stimulates glycogen synthesis in muscles and appears just as effective at restoring glycogen levels as a high-dose of carbohydrates.

    The participants in this study completed three glycogen-depleting weight training sessions. After each session they received one of three different drinks (by a systemic rotation), a carbohydrate solution (61-grams), a glutamine solution (8-grams), or a combination of both. The muscle biopsy results revealed that 8 grams of glutamine was as effective as 61-grams of glucose for restoring muscle glycogen levels, while the combination of glucose and glutamine restored whole body glycogen levels more effectively than either supplement taken separately.

    These findings are fantastic for competitive bodybuilders, wrestlers, and other athletes that may restrict carbohydrate intake yet require high muscle glycogen levels for optimal performance. These results also have important implications for those that follow a low-carb diet. Taking an 8-gram serving of glutamine after exercise will restore muscle glycogen levels as effectively as a high dose of glucose. This means bodybuilders and other athletes can replenish vital muscle glycogen levels with minimal amounts of carbohydrates! Pre-contest bodybuilders can use glutamine in their carb loading phase to enhance muscle glycogen accumulation.

    Bodybuilders and other strength athletes should aim for rapid replenishment of muscle glycogen stores straight after exercise. By adding glutamine to your post-workout meals you will enhance the replenishment of vital muscle glycogen and whole body energy stores.

    This research demonstrates more important benefits of glutamine supplementation for athletes. Glutamine remains one of the most underrated, research-proven performance enhancing supplements an athlete can use.

    J.Appl.Physiol.86;6:1770-1777, 1999.

    However, if the study in the thread starter's post is correct, this study you show would serve only to increase sales of glutamine, as they didn't compare either groups to a "NO CARB post w/o" group.

    Know what i mean? That would mean glutamine has NO effect.
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    It seems to me that the researchers made a hypothesis, and stopped when they got the results they wanted (tailored the study to their hypothesis). Any other researcher would do a study, and if proved correct, examine all factors that could have skewed the results, such as only doing 2 sessions w/ 2 participants. And, as far as the number of sessions/number of participants, more of both would be much better. I think about it this way. If you had 2 participants over 2 sessions, and none showed improvement, I guess you could just stop there, right!?! Any good researcher would then investigate genetic abnormalities/metabolic disorders/body type/caloric expendatures/etc. Now, if you increased it to 20 participants and/or 24 sessions, there would be MUCH LESS room for those types of errors (200/60 would be spectacular, as more of each would allow a dietary macro/physical fitness baseline for the participants to be assessed, so as to be able to accurately monitor their progression. However, if you're only concerned with proving a pre-conceived notion correct, I guess you could go ahead and stop now. I understand that my example is over-simplified by about 20,000,000,000 times, but hopefully I made my point. Just my opinion!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Movin_weight View Post
    I'm not going to tear this apart too much although I disagree with almost all of it. But glycogen is the main substrate used during weight training If your doing any more than say 5 reps. Phospho-creatine can sustain the energy output for a few seconds, but then glycogen becomes the main source. I mean anyone who has tried to workout carb depleted can attest that low glycogen stores equals a sh*t workout.

    Either way the argument we have is whether the use of cho immediately following exercise is beneficial, or if protein alone is enough.

    I've been searching on and off and cannot find any other studies looking at this issue. The only support I can find for the use of carbs are when they are combined with protein. The other support comes from endurance based trials, which don't compare well to this population. There are studies showing that resistance training improves glucose uptake and tolerance, which may allow for faster glycogen repletion, but if your only lifting a muscle group once per week then it wouldn't matter.

    I'm curious if there is a relationship between glycogen content and protein synthesis. Meaning does glycogen synthesis take priority over protein synthesis or visa versa, or is there no relation.
    If you do find something, let me know. Even on what support of carbs combined with protein vs protein alone, did you find anything that was resistance trained athetes and not done with fasted morning workouts?
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    i believe carbs+protein are a good post-wo meal, i dont believe some special shake is needed tho, no need for whey+dextrose blah blah blah for weight traning, a good meal of chicken, rice, veggies ect will work just as well. I dont believe ronnie or jay have post-wo shakes lol, not a good example but still, the overall diet is much more important then whatever special drink you have after a workout.
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    i love carbs after circuit training and cardio. stops the shakes. if it was weights i was doing i'd normally just have a protein shake then a meal. CV i'll do carbs. But after both shakes i'll have a balanced meal like an hour later.

    Guess everyone is different and different things work for others.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAxximal View Post
    Whey and casein are the Best post-workout shake?

    http://esnl.tamu.edu/Publications/JS...643-653-06.pdf
    Not going to read through it right now but it might be the same one. I did read that subjects in a study using a blend rather than whey alone were able to eat a meal sooner after the shake. Thought that was interesting. Any idea why? Seems somewhat contradictory to casein being slow although I'm sure there is another machanism involved that doesn't come to mind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chub View Post
    i love carbs after circuit training and cardio. stops the shakes. if it was weights i was doing i'd normally just have a protein shake then a meal. CV i'll do carbs. But after both shakes i'll have a balanced meal like an hour later.

    Guess everyone is different and different things work for others.
    If I don't drink some Body Mortar or Gatorade during circuit training I get shaky as hell.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccnAbolic View Post
    Not going to read through it right now but it might be the same one. I did read that subjects in a study using a blend rather than whey alone were able to eat a meal sooner after the shake. Thought that was interesting. Any idea why? Seems somewhat contradictory to casein being slow although I'm sure there is another machanism involved that doesn't come to mind.
    Theres actually a number of studies out there that show the faster ingestion the protein is that although serum levels of aminos go up, and short term nitrogen retention seems to go up that longer term protein oxidation also goes up. While in the reverse the slower digesting proteins tend to lower long term protein oxidation. At this point I won't use BCAAs if I'm not sure i'll have a solid meal with protein within the hour.
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    layne norton suggests 20g carbs with amino acids to maximize the protein synthesis response, not sure if that matters post-wo
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    holy crap!!! Finally someone else that uses glutamine PWO. I have been using 20g glutamine very first thing when i get home. Then 15min later, i drink a shake consisting of 40/20/20 (whey/casein/egg). Been working great for recomp.

    Quote Originally Posted by MAxximal View Post
    I use Glutamine
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    The external validity of this study is this: after an acute bout of leg extensions in untrained subjects, carbohydrates do not enhance protein syntehsis any more than protein alone. Thats it.

    You cannot extrapolate the results to anything greater than that without making infferential leaps of faith. Hence, why at the end of any discussion, the researchers will say " we found xxxx, however, more research is needed to see if xxxx will result in xxxxx"
    Evidence based approach use patient centered trials and evidence from basic science. You cannot or you will never find a study with subjects that is exactly similar to your subjects pr patients. If we know the trained individuals have less damage than beginners, the biological plausibility to find greater protein breakdown with trained is much less. So i don't see the results changing in trained.


    The hypothesis proposed by researchers are very narrow and direct. In the case of the aforementioned study, it was a few biochemical processes that are involved in protein synthesis right after resistance training.

    We forget a few things wrt to hypertrophy.
    1. Protein synthesis is an ongoing process, not just an hour or two pwo.
    2. The synthesis of new myofibrils only makes up a part of hypertrophy, thus,
    3. Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy - the merging of satellite cells and the hormones inolved in signalling this (IGF, MGF, etc.) - must also be taken into account attempting to talk about post workout CHO and hypertophy.
    I agree that acute studies do not give the best evidence for application.

    Usually these sort of studies from the framework for long term studies. From other studies, they have show how acute protein synthesis levels can predict long term muscle growth.

    Acute study is better than no studies which is the case with carbs after protein.

    And I am not sure what u mean by sarcoplasmic hypertrophy and satellite cells.

    Good posts.
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    Thought it was interesting that some of the same authors posted this study a couple years ago supporting the use of CHO with protein. Not that it means anything because this is an ever changing and adapting field.

    Minimal whey protein with carbohydrate stimulates muscle protein synthesis following resistance exercise in trained young men.Tang JE, Manolakos JJ, Kujbida GW, Lysecki PJ, Moore DR, Phillips SM.Exercise Metabolism Research Group, Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, 1280 Main St. West, Hamilton, ON L8S 4K1, Canada.

    Abstract
    Whey protein is a supplemental protein source often used by athletes, particularly those aiming to gain muscle mass; however, direct evidence for its efficacy in stimulating muscle protein synthesis (MPS) is lacking. We aimed to determine the impact of consuming whey protein on skeletal muscle protein turnover in the post-exercise period. Eight healthy resistance-trained young men (age=21+/-1 .0 years; BMI=26.8+/-0.9 kg/m2 (means+/-SE)) participated in a double-blind randomized crossover trial in which they performed a unilateral leg resistance exercise workout (EX: 4 sets of knee extensions and 4 sets of leg press; 8-10 repetitions/set; 80% of maximal), such that one leg was not exercised and acted as a rested (RE) comparator. After exercise, subjects consumed either an isoenergetic whey protein plus carbohydrate beverage (WHEY: 10 g protein and 21 g fructose) or a carbohydrate-only beverage (CHO: 21 g fructose and 10 g maltodextran). Subjects received pulse-tracer injections of L-[ring-2H5]phenylalanine and L-[15N]phenylalanine to measure MPS. Exercise stimulated a rise in MPS in the WHEY-EX and CHO-EX legs, which were greater than MPS in the WHEY-RE leg and the CHO-RE leg (all p<0.05), respectively. The rate of MPS in the WHEY-EX leg was greater than in the CHO-EX leg (p<0.001). We conclude that a small dose (10 g) of whey protein with carbohydrate (21 g) can stimulate a rise in MPS after resistance exercise in trained young men that would be supportive of a positive net protein balance, which, over time, would lead to hypertrophy.
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    Post Exercise Carbohydrates May Be Counter-Productive
    2007 Dr. Mauro Di Pasquale


    At this time the consensus in the literature is that the use of a balanced amino acid mixture along with glucose or high glycemic carbohydrates taken immediately after exercise and then again a short time later would seem to optimize the immediate anabolic effects of exercise.1

    There’s no doubt that the use of the individual and combinations of amino acids both before, during and after exercise has significant short term effects on protein synthesis and the exercise and post exercise hormonal milieu. However, very little research has been done on the long term benefits or drawbacks on body composition and performance of using post exercise carbohydrate intake.

    However, a recent study assessed the need for co-ingestion of carbohydrate with protein on post-exercise muscle protein synthesis.2 The results of the study showed that the use of a protein hydrolysate alone was enough to increase protein synthesis after exercise and that the addition of carbohydrates did not further increase protein synthesis.

    Not only is the use of post exercise carbohydrates non contributory to the increase in protein synthesis brought about by protein intake after exercise, it can actually be counter productive.

    There is no doubt that the timing protein nutrition after exercise is crucial for increasing skeletal muscle protein synthesis and an overall net balance.3 Exercise provides an adaptive response so that the body is able to make use of any nutrition supplied post exercise.

    Nutrient intake on its own provides a storage response so that if one is fed or receives an infusion of mixed amino acids after a fasted period, protein synthesis increases, whereas protein breakdown remains the same or decreases slightly, which is different from the response after exercise.

    Without nutrient intake after exercise protein synthesis and protein breakdown are increased but net balance does not become positive as it does after amino acid intake after fasting. Because of the exercise stimulus, when amino acids are provided after exercise protein synthesis increases more than that after exercise or AA feeding alone, and protein breakdown remains similar to exercise without feeding. Thus the provision of AA enhances protein synthesis and leads to a positive net protein balance and an overall increase in protein accretion.4

    In addition, while the increase in protein synthesis after feeding is a transient storage phenomenon, physical exercise stimulates a longer-term adaptive response. Providing nutrition after physical activity takes advantage of the anabolic signaling pathways that physical activity has initiated by providing amino acid building blocks and energy for protein synthesis.

    Glycogen compensation and super compensation (after glycogen depleting exercise) after exercise requires a substantial carbohydrate load that results in a quick and large increase in glycogen levels in both liver and skeletal muscles. Once the stores are full, or even super full, the stimulus declines dramatically. However, if no carbohydrates are given post exercise the muscle will maintain a capacity to full compensate or supercompensate glycogen until enough carbs are either available through the diet or by gluconeogenesis to fill the glycogen stores as much as possible.5

    Because of the over emphasis placed on maintaining glycogen stores to maximize exercise performance, much of the research has centered around the effects of post exercise carbs, and post exercise carbs combined with protein,6 and the effects these have on glucose transportes (GLUT1, GLUT2, GLUT4), glucose metabolism, including levels of hexokinase and glycogen synthase, and insulin,7,8 there’s not much out there dealing with just the use of protein and fat after exercise.

    The usual advice is that carbs, with some protein thrown in, are a necessary part of post exercise nutrition regardless of diet that you’re following, including a low carb diet.9,10 However, that’s not true. In fact the use of carbs post training can be counter productive and eliminating post training carbs can have added anabolic and fat burning effects.

    That’s because the intake of carbs after exercise blunts the post exercise insulin sensitivity. That means that once muscle has loaded up on glycogen, which it does pretty quickly on carbs, insulin sensitivity decreases dramatically.

    As you know this statement runs counter to present thinking and research about post exercise nutrition although we’ve mentioned that one recent study showing that carbohydrate intake after exercise is non contributory to the increase in protein synthesis brought about by the use of a protein hydrolysate post exercise.

    However, the study did not go as far as to state that the use of carbohydrates can actually be counter productive. As such, let’s take it step by step so that I can make my reasons for the above statements clear and easier to understand.

    First of all it’s well known that a single session of exercise increases insulin sensitivity for hours and even days.11,12

    It’s also known that a bout of resistance exercise results in a significant decrease in glycogen and that total energy content and CHO content are important in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen.13

    Glucose uptake and glycogen synthesis are enhanced in the presence of insulin following an acute exercise bout that lowers the muscle glycogen concentration and activates glycogen synthase.14,15

    Muscle glycogen concentration dictates much of this acute increase in insulin sensitivity after exercise.16 Therefore, an increased availability of dietary carbohydrate in the hours after exercise and the resultant increase in muscle glycogen resynthesis reverses the exercise-induced increase in insulin sensitivity.17

    Along with glucose uptake, amino acid uptake and protein synthesis also increase. As well, the use of fatty acids as a primary fuel also rises after exercise since glycogen resynthesis takes priority to the use of glucose for aerobic energy.

    However, as liver and muscle glycogen levels get replenished, insulin sensitivity decreases, as does amino acid uptake, protein synthesis and the use of fatty acids as a primary fuel.

    By increasing insulin levels and not providing carbs you shunt your body’s metabolism to the use of more fatty acids for energy while at the same time keeping muscle glycogen levels below saturation and amino acid influx and protein synthesis elevated for a prolonged period of time post exercise.

    This increased capacity for glycogen synthesis, and everything that goes with it, can persist for several days if the muscle glycogen concentration is maintained below normal levels by carbohydrate restriction. By keeping carbs low and protein and energy high after training, you can increase protein synthesis over a prolonged period of time and get long term anabolic effect.18

    As well, the type of protein used post exercise can have an effect on glycogen levels and thus the anabolic stimulus. For example it’s been shown that a fast protein, such as whey protein, leads to increased glycogen levels over slow proteins such as casein.19

    In the long run, the optimal protein for increasing protein synthesis, decreasing catabolism and increasing muscle accretion is a blend of slow and fast proteins, plus the addition of a few other useful ingredients.


    1 Manninen AH. Hyperinsulinaemia, hyperaminoacidaemia and post-exercise muscle anabolism: the search for the optimal recovery drink. Br J Sports Med. 2006;40(11):900-5.
    2 Beelen M, Koopman R, Stellingwerff T, Kuipers H, Saris WH, van Loon LJ. Co-ingestion Of Carbohydrate With Protein Does Not Stimulate Post-exercise Muscle Protein Synthesis Rates: 874: June 1 1:45 PM - 2:00 PM. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2007 May;39(5 Suppl):S83.
    3 Tipton, KD, Ferrando AA, Phillips SM, Doyle D Jr, Wolfe RR. Postexercise net protein synthesis in human muscle from orally administered amino acids. Am. J. Physiol. 1999; 276:E628-634.
    4 Miller BF. Human muscle protein synthesis after physical activity and feeding. Exerc Sport Sci Rev. 2007;35(2):50-5.
    5 Garcia-Roves, P.M., D.H. Han, Z. Song, T.E. Jones, K.A. Hucker, and J.O. Holloszy. Prevention of glycogen supercompensation prolongs the increase in muscle GLUT4 after exercise. Am. J. Physiol. Endocrinol. Metab. 2003; 285:E729-E736,.
    6 Ivy JL Goforth HW Jr Damon BM McCauley TR Parsons EC Price TB (2002) Early postexercise muscle glycogen recovery is enhanced with a carbohydrate–protein supplement J Appl Physiol 93 1337–1344.
    7 Zorzano A, Palacin M, Guma A. Mechanisms regulating GLUT4 glucose transporter expression and glucose transport in skeletal muscle. Acta Physiol Scand. 2005;183(1):43-58.
    8 Morifuji M, Sakai K, Sanbongi C, Sugiura K. Dietary whey protein increases liver and skeletal muscle glycogen levels in exercise-trained rats. Br J Nutr. 2005;93(4):439-45.
    9 Ivy JL, Goforth HW Jr, Damon BM, McCauley TR, Parsons EC, Price TB. Early postexercise muscle glycogen recovery is enhanced with a carbohydrate-protein supplement. J Appl Physiol. 2002;93(4):1337-44.
    10 Carrithers JA, Williamson DL, Gallagher PM, Godard MP, Schulze KE, Trappe SW. Effects of postexercise carbohydrate-protein feedings on muscle glycogen restoration. J Appl Physiol. 2000;88(6):1976-82.
    11 CarteeGD, Young DA, Sleeper MD, Zierath J, Wallberg-Henriksson H, and Holloszy JO. Prolonged increase in insulin-stimulated glucose transport in muscle after exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 1989; 256: E494–E499.
    12 HenriksenEJ. Effects of acute exercise and exercise training on insulin resistance. J Appl Physiol 2002; 93:788–796.
    13 Roy BD, Tarnopolsky MA. Influence of differing macronutrient intakes on muscle glycogen resynthesis after resistance exercise. J Appl Physiol. 1998;84(3):890-6.
    14 Ivy JL, Holloszy JO. Persistant increase in glucose uptake by rat skeletal muscle following exercise. Am J Physiol 1981; 241:C200-C203.
    15 Ren JM, Semenkovich CF, Gulve EA, Gao J, Holloszy JO. Exercise induces rapid increases in GLUT4 expression, glucose transport capacity, and insulin-stimulated glycogen storage in muscle. J Biol Chem. 1994 20;269(20):14396-401.
    16 Derave W, Lund S, Holman G, Wojtaszewski J, Pedersen O, Richter EA. Contraction-stimulated muscle glucose transport and GLUT-4 surface content are dependent on glycogen content. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 1999; 277: E1103–E1110.
    17 Kawanaka K, Han D, Nolte LA, Hansen PA, Nakatani A, and Holloszy JO. Decreased insulin-stimulated GLUT-4 translocation in glycogen-supercompensated muscles of exercised rats. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 1999; 276: E907–E912.
    18 Cartee GD, Young DA, Sleeper MD, Zierath J, Wallberg-Henriksson H, Holloszy JO. Prolonged increase in insulin-stimulated glucose transport in muscle after exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 1989; 256:E494–E499.
    19 Morifuji M, Sakai K, Sanbongi C, Sugiura K. Dietary whey protein increases liver and skeletal muscle glycogen levels in exercise-trained rats. Br J Nutr. 2005;93(4):439-45.
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    As for the present study, validity aside, it is pretty much the only study of it's kind to date. So without future research, it's still up in the air about carbs IMO... but I have to say I am definately more convinced than I was before this thread.

    During something like HST training, or high volume upper/lower split training... then I could see the benefit, b/c your going to be training every other day, and need to re-synthesize glycogen as fast as possible.

    But I'm all but convinced that for the typical bodybuilder hitting each muscle group once per week, there may be no added benefit for large quantities of CHO post workout.

    BUT... that claim still cannot be made without additional research IMO

    You still have 50+ studies out there that have used a CHO + Protein mix when finding their results... and this study is the first to make the distinguishment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAxximal View Post
    Post Exercise Carbohydrates May Be Counter-Productive
    2007 Dr. Mauro Di Pasquale


    At this time the consensus in the literature is that the use of a balanced amino acid mixture along with glucose or high glycemic carbohydrates taken immediately after exercise and then again a short time later would seem to optimize the immediate anabolic effects of exercise.1

    There’s no doubt that the use of the individual and combinations of amino acids both before, during and after exercise has significant short term effects on protein synthesis and the exercise and post exercise hormonal milieu. However, very little research has been done on the long term benefits or drawbacks on body composition and performance of using post exercise carbohydrate intake.

    However, a recent study assessed the need for co-ingestion of carbohydrate with protein on post-exercise muscle protein synthesis.2 The results of the study showed that the use of a protein hydrolysate alone was enough to increase protein synthesis after exercise and that the addition of carbohydrates did not further increase protein synthesis.

    Not only is the use of post exercise carbohydrates non contributory to the increase in protein synthesis brought about by protein intake after exercise, it can actually be counter productive.

    There is no doubt that the timing protein nutrition after exercise is crucial for increasing skeletal muscle protein synthesis and an overall net balance.3 Exercise provides an adaptive response so that the body is able to make use of any nutrition supplied post exercise.

    Nutrient intake on its own provides a storage response so that if one is fed or receives an infusion of mixed amino acids after a fasted period, protein synthesis increases, whereas protein breakdown remains the same or decreases slightly, which is different from the response after exercise.

    Without nutrient intake after exercise protein synthesis and protein breakdown are increased but net balance does not become positive as it does after amino acid intake after fasting. Because of the exercise stimulus, when amino acids are provided after exercise protein synthesis increases more than that after exercise or AA feeding alone, and protein breakdown remains similar to exercise without feeding. Thus the provision of AA enhances protein synthesis and leads to a positive net protein balance and an overall increase in protein accretion.4

    In addition, while the increase in protein synthesis after feeding is a transient storage phenomenon, physical exercise stimulates a longer-term adaptive response. Providing nutrition after physical activity takes advantage of the anabolic signaling pathways that physical activity has initiated by providing amino acid building blocks and energy for protein synthesis.

    Glycogen compensation and super compensation (after glycogen depleting exercise) after exercise requires a substantial carbohydrate load that results in a quick and large increase in glycogen levels in both liver and skeletal muscles. Once the stores are full, or even super full, the stimulus declines dramatically. However, if no carbohydrates are given post exercise the muscle will maintain a capacity to full compensate or supercompensate glycogen until enough carbs are either available through the diet or by gluconeogenesis to fill the glycogen stores as much as possible.5

    Because of the over emphasis placed on maintaining glycogen stores to maximize exercise performance, much of the research has centered around the effects of post exercise carbs, and post exercise carbs combined with protein,6 and the effects these have on glucose transportes (GLUT1, GLUT2, GLUT4), glucose metabolism, including levels of hexokinase and glycogen synthase, and insulin,7,8 there’s not much out there dealing with just the use of protein and fat after exercise.

    The usual advice is that carbs, with some protein thrown in, are a necessary part of post exercise nutrition regardless of diet that you’re following, including a low carb diet.9,10 However, that’s not true. In fact the use of carbs post training can be counter productive and eliminating post training carbs can have added anabolic and fat burning effects.

    That’s because the intake of carbs after exercise blunts the post exercise insulin sensitivity. That means that once muscle has loaded up on glycogen, which it does pretty quickly on carbs, insulin sensitivity decreases dramatically.

    As you know this statement runs counter to present thinking and research about post exercise nutrition although we’ve mentioned that one recent study showing that carbohydrate intake after exercise is non contributory to the increase in protein synthesis brought about by the use of a protein hydrolysate post exercise.

    However, the study did not go as far as to state that the use of carbohydrates can actually be counter productive. As such, let’s take it step by step so that I can make my reasons for the above statements clear and easier to understand.

    First of all it’s well known that a single session of exercise increases insulin sensitivity for hours and even days.11,12

    It’s also known that a bout of resistance exercise results in a significant decrease in glycogen and that total energy content and CHO content are important in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen.13

    Glucose uptake and glycogen synthesis are enhanced in the presence of insulin following an acute exercise bout that lowers the muscle glycogen concentration and activates glycogen synthase.14,15

    Muscle glycogen concentration dictates much of this acute increase in insulin sensitivity after exercise.16 Therefore, an increased availability of dietary carbohydrate in the hours after exercise and the resultant increase in muscle glycogen resynthesis reverses the exercise-induced increase in insulin sensitivity.17

    Along with glucose uptake, amino acid uptake and protein synthesis also increase. As well, the use of fatty acids as a primary fuel also rises after exercise since glycogen resynthesis takes priority to the use of glucose for aerobic energy.

    However, as liver and muscle glycogen levels get replenished, insulin sensitivity decreases, as does amino acid uptake, protein synthesis and the use of fatty acids as a primary fuel.

    By increasing insulin levels and not providing carbs you shunt your body’s metabolism to the use of more fatty acids for energy while at the same time keeping muscle glycogen levels below saturation and amino acid influx and protein synthesis elevated for a prolonged period of time post exercise.

    This increased capacity for glycogen synthesis, and everything that goes with it, can persist for several days if the muscle glycogen concentration is maintained below normal levels by carbohydrate restriction. By keeping carbs low and protein and energy high after training, you can increase protein synthesis over a prolonged period of time and get long term anabolic effect.18

    As well, the type of protein used post exercise can have an effect on glycogen levels and thus the anabolic stimulus. For example it’s been shown that a fast protein, such as whey protein, leads to increased glycogen levels over slow proteins such as casein.19

    In the long run, the optimal protein for increasing protein synthesis, decreasing catabolism and increasing muscle accretion is a blend of slow and fast proteins, plus the addition of a few other useful ingredients.


    1 Manninen AH. Hyperinsulinaemia, hyperaminoacidaemia and post-exercise muscle anabolism: the search for the optimal recovery drink. Br J Sports Med. 2006;40(11):900-5.
    2 Beelen M, Koopman R, Stellingwerff T, Kuipers H, Saris WH, van Loon LJ. Co-ingestion Of Carbohydrate With Protein Does Not Stimulate Post-exercise Muscle Protein Synthesis Rates: 874: June 1 1:45 PM - 2:00 PM. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2007 May;39(5 Suppl):S83.
    3 Tipton, KD, Ferrando AA, Phillips SM, Doyle D Jr, Wolfe RR. Postexercise net protein synthesis in human muscle from orally administered amino acids. Am. J. Physiol. 1999; 276:E628-634.
    4 Miller BF. Human muscle protein synthesis after physical activity and feeding. Exerc Sport Sci Rev. 2007;35(2):50-5.
    5 Garcia-Roves, P.M., D.H. Han, Z. Song, T.E. Jones, K.A. Hucker, and J.O. Holloszy. Prevention of glycogen supercompensation prolongs the increase in muscle GLUT4 after exercise. Am. J. Physiol. Endocrinol. Metab. 2003; 285:E729-E736,.
    6 Ivy JL Goforth HW Jr Damon BM McCauley TR Parsons EC Price TB (2002) Early postexercise muscle glycogen recovery is enhanced with a carbohydrate–protein supplement J Appl Physiol 93 1337–1344.
    7 Zorzano A, Palacin M, Guma A. Mechanisms regulating GLUT4 glucose transporter expression and glucose transport in skeletal muscle. Acta Physiol Scand. 2005;183(1):43-58.
    8 Morifuji M, Sakai K, Sanbongi C, Sugiura K. Dietary whey protein increases liver and skeletal muscle glycogen levels in exercise-trained rats. Br J Nutr. 2005;93(4):439-45.
    9 Ivy JL, Goforth HW Jr, Damon BM, McCauley TR, Parsons EC, Price TB. Early postexercise muscle glycogen recovery is enhanced with a carbohydrate-protein supplement. J Appl Physiol. 2002;93(4):1337-44.
    10 Carrithers JA, Williamson DL, Gallagher PM, Godard MP, Schulze KE, Trappe SW. Effects of postexercise carbohydrate-protein feedings on muscle glycogen restoration. J Appl Physiol. 2000;88(6):1976-82.
    11 CarteeGD, Young DA, Sleeper MD, Zierath J, Wallberg-Henriksson H, and Holloszy JO. Prolonged increase in insulin-stimulated glucose transport in muscle after exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 1989; 256: E494–E499.
    12 HenriksenEJ. Effects of acute exercise and exercise training on insulin resistance. J Appl Physiol 2002; 93:788–796.
    13 Roy BD, Tarnopolsky MA. Influence of differing macronutrient intakes on muscle glycogen resynthesis after resistance exercise. J Appl Physiol. 1998;84(3):890-6.
    14 Ivy JL, Holloszy JO. Persistant increase in glucose uptake by rat skeletal muscle following exercise. Am J Physiol 1981; 241:C200-C203.
    15 Ren JM, Semenkovich CF, Gulve EA, Gao J, Holloszy JO. Exercise induces rapid increases in GLUT4 expression, glucose transport capacity, and insulin-stimulated glycogen storage in muscle. J Biol Chem. 1994 20;269(20):14396-401.
    16 Derave W, Lund S, Holman G, Wojtaszewski J, Pedersen O, Richter EA. Contraction-stimulated muscle glucose transport and GLUT-4 surface content are dependent on glycogen content. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 1999; 277: E1103–E1110.
    17 Kawanaka K, Han D, Nolte LA, Hansen PA, Nakatani A, and Holloszy JO. Decreased insulin-stimulated GLUT-4 translocation in glycogen-supercompensated muscles of exercised rats. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 1999; 276: E907–E912.
    18 Cartee GD, Young DA, Sleeper MD, Zierath J, Wallberg-Henriksson H, Holloszy JO. Prolonged increase in insulin-stimulated glucose transport in muscle after exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 1989; 256:E494–E499.
    19 Morifuji M, Sakai K, Sanbongi C, Sugiura K. Dietary whey protein increases liver and skeletal muscle glycogen levels in exercise-trained rats. Br J Nutr. 2005;93(4):439-45.

    Yeah i read this also.... very good write-up, but it is all analytical and oppinion based. But still very interesting perspective.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Movin_weight View Post
    Yeah i read this also.... very good write-up, but it is all analytical and oppinion based. But still very interesting perspective.
    I`m on low carb diet now and the only thing help me a lot on the gym with the weights is ALCAR 6g a day
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAxximal View Post
    I`m on low carb diet now and the only thing help me a lot on the gym with the weights is ALCAR 6g a day
    Yeah I read a study during my search saying that when your on a carb restricted diet, timing your carbs around your workout doesn't improve performance.

    I like ALCAR combined with sulbutamine... gives me good focus and drive in the gym
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    damn maxximal...sounds like u are doing a lot of the same stuff i am doing. I have been dosing ALCAR 2-3g three or four times a day. Helps fat metabolism and focus is good.

    Quote Originally Posted by MAxximal View Post
    I`m on low carb diet now and the only thing help me a lot on the gym with the weights is ALCAR 6g a day
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    Here is another one which has looked at whole body protein degradation and synthesis and protein balance and didn't find a difference with carbs :

    Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2007 Sep;293(3):E833-42. Epub 2007 Jul 3.
    Coingestion of carbohydrate with protein does not further augment postexercise muscle protein synthesis.
    Koopman R, Beelen M, Stellingwerff T, Pennings B, Saris WH, Kies AK, Kuipers H, van Loon LJ.

    Department of Movement Sciences, Maastricht University, PO Box 616, 6200 MD Maastricht, The Netherlands. R.Koopman@HB.unimaas.nl
    Abstract
    The present study was designed to assess the impact of coingestion of various amounts of carbohydrate combined with an ample amount of protein intake on postexercise muscle protein synthesis rates. Ten healthy, fit men (20 +/- 0.3 yr) were randomly assigned to three crossover experiments. After 60 min of resistance exercise, subjects consumed 0.3 g x kg(-1) x h(-1) protein hydrolysate with 0, 0.15, or 0.6 g x kg(-1) x h(-1) carbohydrate during a 6-h recovery period (PRO, PRO + LCHO, and PRO + HCHO, respectively). Primed, continuous infusions with L-[ring-(13)C(6)]phenylalanine, L-[ring-(2)H(2)]tyrosine, and [6,6-(2)H(2)]glucose were applied, and blood and muscle samples were collected to assess whole body protein turnover and glucose kinetics as well as protein fractional synthesis rate (FSR) in the vastus lateralis muscle over 6 h of postexercise recovery. Plasma insulin responses were significantly greater in PRO + HCHO compared with PRO + LCHO and PRO (18.4 +/- 2.9 vs. 3.7 +/- 0.5 and 1.5 +/- 0.2 U.6 h(-1) x l(-1), respectively, P < 0.001). Plasma glucose rate of appearance (R(a)) and disappearance (R(d)) increased over time in PRO + HCHO and PRO + LCHO, but not in PRO. Plasma glucose R(a) and R(d) were substantially greater in PRO + HCHO vs. both PRO and PRO + LCHO (P < 0.01). Whole body protein breakdown, synthesis, and oxidation rates, as well as whole body protein balance, did not differ between experiments. Mixed muscle protein FSR did not differ between treatments and averaged 0.10 +/- 0.01, 0.10 +/- 0.01, and 0.11 +/- 0.01%/h in the PRO, PRO + LCHO, and PRO + HCHO experiments, respectively. In conclusion, coingestion of carbohydrate during recovery does not further stimulate postexercise muscle protein synthesis when ample protein is ingested.


    The mechanisms seems to be the increased insulin response with just high enough protein intake is enough insulin to blunt protein breakdown. This study had a mean insulin response of 16u/ml where the recent study had 11u/ml in just the protein group.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Movin_weight View Post
    Yeah I read a study during my search saying that when your on a carb restricted diet, timing your carbs around your workout doesn't improve performance.

    I like ALCAR combined with sulbutamine... gives me good focus and drive in the gym
    How much of each did you use here? Any stims used with this combo? I have both and usually just use 1.5g ALCAR with my pre-wo
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    Quote Originally Posted by anoopbal View Post
    Here is another one which has looked at whole body protein degradation and synthesis and protein balance and didn't find a difference with carbs :

    Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2007 Sep;293(3):E833-42. Epub 2007 Jul 3.
    Coingestion of carbohydrate with protein does not further augment postexercise muscle protein synthesis.
    Koopman R, Beelen M, Stellingwerff T, Pennings B, Saris WH, Kies AK, Kuipers H, van Loon LJ.

    Department of Movement Sciences, Maastricht University, PO Box 616, 6200 MD Maastricht, The Netherlands. R.Koopman@HB.unimaas.nl
    Abstract
    The present study was designed to assess the impact of coingestion of various amounts of carbohydrate combined with an ample amount of protein intake on postexercise muscle protein synthesis rates. Ten healthy, fit men (20 +/- 0.3 yr) were randomly assigned to three crossover experiments. After 60 min of resistance exercise, subjects consumed 0.3 g x kg(-1) x h(-1) protein hydrolysate with 0, 0.15, or 0.6 g x kg(-1) x h(-1) carbohydrate during a 6-h recovery period (PRO, PRO + LCHO, and PRO + HCHO, respectively). Primed, continuous infusions with L-[ring-(13)C(6)]phenylalanine, L-[ring-(2)H(2)]tyrosine, and [6,6-(2)H(2)]glucose were applied, and blood and muscle samples were collected to assess whole body protein turnover and glucose kinetics as well as protein fractional synthesis rate (FSR) in the vastus lateralis muscle over 6 h of postexercise recovery. Plasma insulin responses were significantly greater in PRO + HCHO compared with PRO + LCHO and PRO (18.4 +/- 2.9 vs. 3.7 +/- 0.5 and 1.5 +/- 0.2 U.6 h(-1) x l(-1), respectively, P < 0.001). Plasma glucose rate of appearance (R(a)) and disappearance (R(d)) increased over time in PRO + HCHO and PRO + LCHO, but not in PRO. Plasma glucose R(a) and R(d) were substantially greater in PRO + HCHO vs. both PRO and PRO + LCHO (P < 0.01). Whole body protein breakdown, synthesis, and oxidation rates, as well as whole body protein balance, did not differ between experiments. Mixed muscle protein FSR did not differ between treatments and averaged 0.10 +/- 0.01, 0.10 +/- 0.01, and 0.11 +/- 0.01%/h in the PRO, PRO + LCHO, and PRO + HCHO experiments, respectively. In conclusion, coingestion of carbohydrate during recovery does not further stimulate postexercise muscle protein synthesis when ample protein is ingested.


    The mechanisms seems to be the increased insulin response with just high enough protein intake is enough insulin to blunt protein breakdown. This study had a mean insulin response of 16u/ml where the recent study had 11u/ml in just the protein group.
    Yeah good find, I read a few others discussing the minimal effects immediate carbs have on nitrogen balance.

    Gotta say ive learned alot just from the topics sparked in thread.
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    Since none of you who argue for carbs can never ever bring some evidence to the table, here you go:

    Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2003 Mar;35(3):449-55.
    Independent and combined effects of amino acids and glucose after resistance exercise.
    Miller SL, Tipton KD, Chinkes DL, Wolf SE, Wolfe RR.

    Dairy Management, Inc, Rosemont, IL, USA.
    Abstract
    PURPOSE: This study was designed to assess the independent and combined effects of a dose of amino acids (approximately 6 g) and/or carbohydrate (approximately 35 g) consumed at 1 and 2 h after resistance exercise on muscle protein metabolism.

    METHODS: Following initiation of a primed constant infusion of H -phenylalanine and N-urea, volunteers performed leg resistance exercise and then ingested one of three drinks (amino acids (AA), carbohydrate (CHO), or AA and CHO (MIX)) at 1- and 2-h postexercise.(5)

    RESULTS: Total net uptake of phenylalanine across the leg over 3 h was greatest in response to MIX and least in CHO. The individual values for CHO, MIX, and AA were 53 +/- 6, 114 +/- 38, and 71 +/- 13 mg x leg x 3h. Stimulation of net uptake in MIX was due to increased muscle protein synthesis.

    CONCLUSIONS: These findings indicate that the combined effect on net muscle protein synthesis of carbohydrate and amino acids given together after resistance exercise is roughly equivalent to the sum of the independent effects of either given alone. The individual effects of carbohydrate and amino acids are likely dependent on the amount of each that is ingested. Further, prior intake of amino acids and carbohydrate does not diminish the metabolic response to a second comparable dose ingested 1h later.


    The only problem is here that the carbs groups received 35 gms of carbs while the protein just got around 6 gms of AA!. T?he extra calories in the carb group could have just caused the effect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anoopbal View Post
    Since none of you who argue for carbs can never ever bring some evidence to the table, here you go:

    Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2003 Mar;35(3):449-55.
    Independent and combined effects of amino acids and glucose after resistance exercise.
    Miller SL, Tipton KD, Chinkes DL, Wolf SE, Wolfe RR.

    Dairy Management, Inc, Rosemont, IL, USA.
    Abstract
    PURPOSE: This study was designed to assess the independent and combined effects of a dose of amino acids (approximately 6 g) and/or carbohydrate (approximately 35 g) consumed at 1 and 2 h after resistance exercise on muscle protein metabolism.

    METHODS: Following initiation of a primed constant infusion of H -phenylalanine and N-urea, volunteers performed leg resistance exercise and then ingested one of three drinks (amino acids (AA), carbohydrate (CHO), or AA and CHO (MIX)) at 1- and 2-h postexercise.(5)

    RESULTS: Total net uptake of phenylalanine across the leg over 3 h was greatest in response to MIX and least in CHO. The individual values for CHO, MIX, and AA were 53 +/- 6, 114 +/- 38, and 71 +/- 13 mg x leg x 3h. Stimulation of net uptake in MIX was due to increased muscle protein synthesis.

    CONCLUSIONS: These findings indicate that the combined effect on net muscle protein synthesis of carbohydrate and amino acids given together after resistance exercise is roughly equivalent to the sum of the independent effects of either given alone. The individual effects of carbohydrate and amino acids are likely dependent on the amount of each that is ingested. Further, prior intake of amino acids and carbohydrate does not diminish the metabolic response to a second comparable dose ingested 1h later.


    The only problem is here that the carbs groups received 35 gms of carbs while the protein just got around 6 gms of AA!. T?he extra calories in the carb group could have just caused the effect.
    That's contradicting though. If carbs have no effect, then why would extra
    Calories from carbs make a difference here? If that were the case, then carbs alone should be able to provide ample substrate for protein synthesis, when that has been shown by many studies not to be the case.

    On the other hand, aminos are easily Converted to glucose via transamination, which may be the outcome of much of the protein ingested post workout. And to even further complicate things, aminos can be used to form several different kreb cycle intermediates involved in glucose metabolism. Unfortunately,'these processes are basically untraceable since there is no oxidation taking place, so it is very difficult to determine the outcome of the ingested protein.

    My point is, ingesting of cho and a small amount of protein may result in exactly the same response as a larger amount of protein, due to excess protein Being utilized through other metabolic pathways than protein synthesis.

    At this point I'm not necessarily for carbs post workout, but still feel there is a more complex explanation that has been denoted by the few studies posted
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    Quote Originally Posted by anoopbal View Post
    Since none of you who argue for carbs can never ever bring some evidence to the table, here you go:

    Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2003 Mar;35(3):449-55.
    Independent and combined effects of amino acids and glucose after resistance exercise.
    Miller SL, Tipton KD, Chinkes DL, Wolf SE, Wolfe RR.

    Dairy Management, Inc, Rosemont, IL, USA.
    Abstract
    PURPOSE: This study was designed to assess the independent and combined effects of a dose of amino acids (approximately 6 g) and/or carbohydrate (approximately 35 g) consumed at 1 and 2 h after resistance exercise on muscle protein metabolism.

    METHODS: Following initiation of a primed constant infusion of H -phenylalanine and N-urea, volunteers performed leg resistance exercise and then ingested one of three drinks (amino acids (AA), carbohydrate (CHO), or AA and CHO (MIX)) at 1- and 2-h postexercise.(5)

    RESULTS: Total net uptake of phenylalanine across the leg over 3 h was greatest in response to MIX and least in CHO. The individual values for CHO, MIX, and AA were 53 +/- 6, 114 +/- 38, and 71 +/- 13 mg x leg x 3h. Stimulation of net uptake in MIX was due to increased muscle protein synthesis.

    CONCLUSIONS: These findings indicate that the combined effect on net muscle protein synthesis of carbohydrate and amino acids given together after resistance exercise is roughly equivalent to the sum of the independent effects of either given alone. The individual effects of carbohydrate and amino acids are likely dependent on the amount of each that is ingested. Further, prior intake of amino acids and carbohydrate does not diminish the metabolic response to a second comparable dose ingested 1h later.


    The only problem is here that the carbs groups received 35 gms of carbs while the protein just got around 6 gms of AA!. T?he extra calories in the carb group could have just caused the effect.
    That's contradicting though. If carbs have no effect, then why would extra
    Calories from carbs make a difference here? If that were the case, then carbs alone should be able to provide ample substrate for protein synthesis, when that has been shown by many studies not to be the case.

    On the other hand, aminos are easily Converted to glucose via transamination, which may be the outcome of much of the protein ingested post workout. And to even further complicate things, aminos can be used to form several different kreb cycle intermediates involved in glucose metabolism. Unfortunately,'these processes are basically untraceable since there is no oxidation taking place, so it is very difficult to determine the outcome of the ingested protein.

    My point is, ingesting of cho and a small amount of protein may result in exactly the same response as a larger amount of protein, due to excess protein Being utilized through other metabolic pathways than protein synthesis.

    At this point I'm not necessarily for carbs post workout, but still feel there is a more complex explanation that has been denoted by the few studies posted
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    Quote Originally Posted by Movin_weight View Post
    That's contradicting though. If carbs have no effect, then why would extra
    Calories from carbs make a difference here? If that were the case, then carbs alone should be able to provide ample substrate for protein synthesis, when that has been shown by many studies not to be the case. That's what the author wrote too.

    On the other hand, aminos are easily Converted to glucose via transamination, which may be the outcome of much of the protein ingested post workout. And to even further complicate things, aminos can be used to form several different kreb cycle intermediates involved in glucose metabolism. Unfortunately,'these processes are basically untraceable since there is no oxidation taking place, so it is very difficult to determine the outcome of the ingested protein.

    My point is, ingesting of cho and a small amount of protein may result in exactly the same response as a larger amount of protein, due to excess protein Being utilized through other metabolic pathways than protein synthesis.

    At this point I'm not necessarily for carbs post workout, but still feel there is a more complex explanation that has been denoted by the few studies posted
    That is the difference between acute studies and long term studies. In acute studies, you don't see the difference in calories in 30-60 min period. But in long term studies having a group consume 35gms of carbs plus 6gms of protein another group only consuming 6 gms of AA makes a difference in body composition.

    I don't think glucose makes a big difference here. The protein synthesis and breakdown changes are attributed to insulin and amino's.

    I don't think we can conclusively say carbs will not do much postworkout unless there is along term study with a good design. But it is leaning more towards no effect. But it is pretty clear all this crapola about waxy maize, dextrose and 50-70gms carbs post workout is just over hyped.

    Anyway, good discussion.
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    Hydrosalate protein aside, i believe 20g plus free form aminos were shown to maximize protein synthesis, not sugars or waxy but any carb like say a bag of baked lays works too, so with this in mind a piece of fruit with free form aminos would be a good idea unless someone has a good hydrosalate protein such as peptopro, i used layne nortons research for the carbs suggestion
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    Quote Originally Posted by anoopbal View Post
    That is the difference between acute studies and long term studies. In acute studies, you don't see the difference in calories in 30-60 min period. But in long term studies having a group consume 35gms of carbs plus 6gms of protein another group only consuming 6 gms of AA makes a difference in body composition.

    I don't think glucose makes a big difference here. The protein synthesis and breakdown changes are attributed to insulin and amino's.

    I don't think we can conclusively say carbs will not do much postworkout unless there is along term study with a good design. But it is leaning more towards no effect. But it is pretty clear all this crapola about waxy maize, dextrose and 50-70gms carbs post workout is just over hyped.

    Anyway, good discussion.
    Yeah i definitely agree. At one point during a bulk I was slamming 100g of dextrose w/ protein post workout and ended up a
    Bloated mess with a 37 inch waist.

    Good stuff though, this thread def gave me a new perspective.
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    by Charles Poliquin
    Diet Principles


    The best time to load up in carbs is the first 10 minutes following your workout. Since insulin sensitivity is at its highest after the workout, this is the time to take in your carbs to maximize muscle mass gains. Originally based on the research that was available at the time, I typically recommended 2 g/Kg of bodyweight. Over the years, after being exposed to more research and discussing it with my colleagues, I have come to the conclusion that it should be a reflection of the training volume for the training session. The greater the number of reps per training unit, the greater the carbohydrate intake. Of course, one can assume that all reps are equal. A squatting or deadlifting rep is more demanding than a curling or triceps extension rep. By the same token, 3 reps slow tempo squats has different caloric demand than 3 reps in the power clean. As a general rule, I would recommend the following carbohydrate intake based on training volume for a given workout:

    12-72 reps per workout : 0.6 g/Kg/LBM
    73-200 reps per workout : 0.8 g/kg/LBM
    200-360 reps per workout : 1.0 g/kg/LBM
    360-450 reps per workout : 1.2 g/kg/LBM

    Regarding the source of carbohydrates post-workout, I have experimented with various sources, I like using fruit juices with a high glycemic index (i.e. pineapple, grape) to provide 30-40% of the carbs, the rest of the carbs coming from carb powders rangeing from dextrose to various types of malto-dextrin. For variety sake, I will use different types of juice like a berry blend. You can also any type of mushy fruit like bananas or peaches. For seriously underweight athletes, I may use pineapple and/or corn flakes to drive the glycemic index upwards. Instead of using maltodextrin, you can also use dessicated honey.

    Use insulin sensitivity supplements with high-carb post workout meals. Nutrients like taurine, arginine, magnesium, R-form alpha lipoic acid etc.. will help dispose of glucose to muscle cells instead of fat cells.

    Add protein to your post-workout carb intake. Using 15 g of protein for every 50 lbs of bodyweight, will increase glycogen storage by as much as 40%.
    SNS Online Representative
    Maxximal @ seriousnutritionsolutions.com

    Got Glycophase ...?


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    I don't buy this study one bit. Sorry. I've read too many studies that say a mixture of protein and carbs is the most ideal post workout meal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VeganMike View Post
    I don't buy this study one bit. Sorry. I've read too many studies that say a mixture of protein and carbs is the most ideal post workout meal.
    Can you post the studies please.
  

  
 

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