Surprised this hasn't been added, too: there is a huge difference in eating for performance and eating for aesthetics. If you're training 2x/day for a sport, then you'll need a lot of carbs after training (simple and complex).
so a) cyclists not weight lifters b) was only measured at 0,2 + 4 hours post exercise.Twelve male cyclists exercised continuously for 70 min on a cycle ergometer at 68% VO2max, interrupted by six 2-min intervals at 88% VO2max, on two separate occasions. A 25% carbohydrate solution (2 g/kg body wt) was ingested immediately postexercise (P-EX) or 2 h postexercise (2P-EX). Muscle biopsies were taken from the vastus lateralis at 0, 2, and 4 h postexercise.
Yes thats valuable if you are doing endurance sports, and may have more than one session a day (where you need to replenish glycogen before the next event). Meaningless from a bodybuilding perspective where you don't likely in 90 minutes of lifting hit 50% of V02max for more than a couple minutes total. Your glycogen reserves are rather large, and a normal lifting session doesn't clip 25% off the total.
Of course I read the study.
My point is that there are benefits to timing of carbohydrate ingestion and it isn't necessarily equal to 'spreading them throughout the day' as you suggested. The laws of thermodynamics stand but there is no denying the hormonal influence.
Once again, if I am trying to build muscle and I can afford to ingest that much sugar for a highly anabolic insulin spike without putting on fat then I will do that. At the moment I can ingest 150g of carbs dextrose/maltodextrin usually without my bodyfat going up, if my bodyfat isn't going up I am going to consume as much as I can post workout.
I must be communicating badly?
Regarding glycogen replenishment in bodybuilding. I wrote this in post #5- "Carbs aren't 'required' post workout. Glycogen levels are shown to replenish in study groups who drank just water."
Regarding time of day comment. In post #11- "Why wouldn't you take a high amount of carbs/calories post workout if you can afford it? It is the only time of the day I can take that much sugar without falling asleep afterwards." -
i love weight gainers post workout
If it doesn't show the benefits on beginners, I don't expect to see anything in trained. Trained athletes are shown to have much less damage than beginners.2 trials of leg extensions on "recreationally active" participants is hardly an applicable sample size. The study was also not calorically controlled, which makes a huge difference (duh).
The study just like any other protein study is obviously calorie controlled. these acute studies are much better than long term studies where we got no clue what they ate during a 12 week period unless you give them food packets. And they all came after an over night fast too.
I have bolded my answer in your post. Resistance training is different from endurance training. I don't see to much glycogen getting depleted unless you are doing lot of volume and high rep sets.The point of post workout carbs is for the resynthesis of glycogen, not to blunt protein degradation. Several studies have shown the benefit of adding protein To pwo carbs following endurance training leads to faster recovery of glycogen and reduced protein degradation than carbs alone.
And just so that people know glycogen do not build muscle unless it does something to protein synthesis or protein breakdown.
Only thing I can see problematic is they only did 4 sets of 12. In real world most people, do a lot more sets for legs. There was a study which showed 9 sets of 12 depleted 36 % of muscle glycogen.
"Participants were asked to refrain from heavy leg exercise for 72 h prior to each of the trials, and to refrain from alcohol, caffeine, and other drugs for 24 h prior to each of the trials. Participants kept a food record for the day before their first trial and were asked to replicate the diet and approximate eating times before the second trial. Participants were only permitted to consume water during the 10h before each trial, and they were asked to obtain a full night of sleep on the evenings before each trial."
And what has long term study got to do with the sample size n?
And read it again what I wrote: I meant you cannot completely control someones diet in long term study unless you are feeding them food packets or lock them up in a building which is usually a problem with body composition studies.
This study is cross over design. you do one sets of measurements and the next time after a washout period you do the other one.Within subjects designs like these eliminate problems with genetics and motivation factors since you are using the same subjects.
The sample size is determined by a power analysis before the study (which they did). You need just enough sample to see if you can find a significant difference. You can make any difference statistically significant, if you have a high enough sample size. So more doesn't mean good.
If you can't understand why n should be large, then you should stop making making broad conclusions on a given study. Understanding n is covered on the first day of any decent experimental design class, which I gather you have never taken.
Second, where did i say more n do not mean more statistical power. Read my post again.
You can make even a 5 lb difference in strength statistically significant if you have a large sample size. So the goal of a study is not find the LARGEST sample size, but just enough to have it significant to prove that there is a meaningful difference.
And no reason start being condescending in your posts.
For example: if you have a test group of 10 and 4 show an improvement, then that is an impressive statistic; however, if you expand the sample size to 100 and only 13 show improvement, then it is not nearly as effective or as high of a ratio. Why else do you think there are 1000's of trials done on medications? You want to weed out the data and find out if you can reject the null hypothesis or if the p-value is too high to reject the null hypothesis.
Have you heard about power analysis?
Here is the definition for it: Power analysis can be used to calculate the minimum sample size required to accept the outcome of a statistical test with a particular level of confidence.
I hope you understand that it is SINGLE study and by "trial" means the 2 separate groups for carbs and carbs +protein.
Your not understanding the definition of statistical power, and reading the definition on wikipedia doesn't do your argument justice. Statistical power is basically how much you can rely on a statistical test to support or reject the hypothesis. It is related to sample size, and the larger the sample size (n), the more statistical power you have. You don't want to have the minimum sample size needed to Accept an outcome, you want the largest sample size possible to maximize validity.
This is the only study I've been able to locate looking at this matter. one study involving 13 recreational subjects performing considerably less volume than most on this website, is not enough to make the claim that post workout carbs aren't needed after weight training. But it does spark interesting debates, and opens the door formmore research,'so it's still a good post.
Restoring muscle glycogen is important only when doing endurance events. Normal eating will restore glycogen for regular weight workouts. If you need to carbo-load before a bodybuilding contest, for example, to look as cut as possible you would then carbo-load. But this is not a recommended practice for normal weight workouts.
One of the belief is that carbo loading or glycogen loading increases your power or maximum aerobic output. The amount of glycogen in your muscles does nothing for strength, power or V02 max. it simply enables you to continue longer at your maximum aerobic pace. Far from increasing power, for short events (less than 2 hours), glycogen loading is a definite liability. 1. There is insufficient exercise to use the extra glycogen. 2. More important, doubling your glycogen store will increase your water and glycogen weight by 4-5lbs which will reduce your performance for shorter workouts. Extra glycogen will also create tightness and stiffness of muscles. -Colgan Institute