Recuperation and DOMS

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    Recuperation and DOMS


    Would just like to hear everyones thoughts on this.
    Lets say your triceps have been sore for the past few days but this morning its gone, would you work them again or wait to give them one more day. Or perhaps give them 2 "non sore" days before you hit them again??

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    2 non-sore days at least. At the point you are just "not sore", all you have done is recover, not yet supercompensated (addded more muscle).

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    There is no reason to not train muscles that are sore. Just because a muscle is sore that doesn't mean it hasn't recovered from the last workout. If anything, you would benefit from the increased blood flow to the area. By benefit I mean, it would help reduce soreness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onslaught
    There is no reason to not train muscles that are sore. Just because a muscle is sore that doesn't mean it hasn't recovered from the last workout. If anything, you would benefit from the increased blood flow to the area. By benefit I mean, it would help reduce soreness.
    Correct me if im wrong but isnt the DOMS basically the muscles saying "Leave me alone, Im trying to repair!"
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    Yes, Trytter you are right. Onslought is wrong. There are CERTAIN types of training that can be done to help a muscle recover, and Louis Simmons of Powerlifting fame is probabably the biggest advocate of this, but it is far different from doing a regular workout while sore. If you are still sore you are NOT recovered--PERIOD!!!

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    Show me something that says you can't train a bodypart when it's still sore. Or, show me something something that says a muscle hasn't fully recovered if it's still sore.
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    Onslaught,

    You can of course train a muscle if it's still sore. You can train it every day if you like, you just won't grow that way. I have read plenty of studies that clearly indicate that if a muscle is still sore it has not recovered. I am not going to take the time to do a search for any of them, and post any for you because if common sense doesn't tell you that a sore muscle hasn't recovered I am no doubt wasting my time. Please don't take that as a flame, it wasn't, but is the blunt truth.

    While it may be possible to make progress with the poundages training a sore muscle these gains will all be from increased ability of nerve recruitment, NOT increased muscle, which I assume is the goal for most people here.

    Iron Addict
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    it is important to understand why your muscles are sore. When you break down muscle tissue, the body has an inflammatory response. The added fluid puts pressure on your skin and this is what causes "muscle soreness". Hence, this "soreness" can be reduced by taking an anti inflammatory agent like advil and, as a result, is not a good measure of muscle recovery. I would suggest some trial and error: try to find the shortest period of time between workouts that shows improvement in your lifts.
    cc
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    Thank you canadian champ.

    Iron Addict, it is not common sense at all. I'm sorry, but the human body is far to complicated to dumb it down to "if it's sore, it's not ready to be trained again". Please show me some of these studies that you have found as I am greatly interested. If you found them before, you should be able to find them again rather easily.
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    Sounds like you just bought Canadian Champs response which states that there is inflamation. Let's see, we have cells that are inflamed, yet they are recovered? Yes, this is common sense. Inflammed tissue is NOT recovered. Canadian Champs response is partially correct going on what we know about DOMS. While the EXACT mechanism is not precisely known, the studies thus far point to a combination of inflamation from micro-truama, and calcium leakage from the cell. Is it one, or both of these factors combined? Scientists are not quite sure, but either way the cell is not recovered at that point.

    Iron Addict
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    The body cannot do 2 things at once , and the body prioritizes recovery before muscle , if your muscle is still sore, what do you think it will do? grow or try to keep recovering? if you hammer it again it will try to catch up and keep recovering eventually leading to overtraining.
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    what ? The body cant do two things at once? The body does thousands of things at once!
    The issue i meant to raise in the previous post is that muscle soreness is not a good gauge of muscle recovery because certain actions can eliminate this soreness (such as taking anti inflammatories) without the muscle having been recovered.
    By that logic, you can pop a few advil, the pain will subside, and you can workout the same body part everyday? I think you should just go on trial and error to find the minimum amount of time off that allows you to have increased productivity in subsequent workouts.
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    There are an estmated 6.3 BILLION separate activities taking place in the average human body per SECOND. Regardless, long-term training a muscle before it has fully recovered is very useless activity, and while a muscle is still sore it has not yet fully recovered--period!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RaulJimenez
    The body cannot do 2 things at once , and the body prioritizes recovery before muscle , if your muscle is still sore, what do you think it will do? grow or try to keep recovering? if you hammer it again it will try to catch up and keep recovering eventually leading to overtraining.
    Overtraining is more a function of the CNS being heavily taxed than of what you speak.
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    Iron Addict, I have a few questions but I can't think of how to phrase them properly. I'll ask tomorrow when my brain is fresh.

    On a side note, you have to stop saying "peroid!". Nothing is so simple in the human body to say that anything is definite, especially when talking about recovery time as it is something that's highly individual. I'm still not convinced that because a muscle is sore, that it's not recovered. I used to run cross country in high school and my legs were sore quite often, however it never affected my running. Sure, it hurt, but as long as I could push through it my performance was not hindered.
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    Quote Originally Posted by canadian champ
    what ? The body cant do two things at once? The body does thousands of things at once!
    The issue i meant to raise in the previous post is that muscle soreness is not a good gauge of muscle recovery because certain actions can eliminate this soreness (such as taking anti inflammatories) without the muscle having been recovered.
    By that logic, you can pop a few advil, the pain will subside, and you can workout the same body part everyday? I think you should just go on trial and error to find the minimum amount of time off that allows you to have increased productivity in subsequent workouts.
    cc
    The body cannot repair and build muscle at the same time, period.
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    Onslaught,

    Recovery time being very individualized is true, but saying a muscle can be fully recovered while still being sore would mean the natural state of a muscle is to be sore--its NOT!

    Iron Addict
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    That line of thinking is completely ass backwards.

    If it rains, the ground gets wet. But, just because the ground is wet, that doesn't mean it rained.
    Last edited by Onslaught; 01-12-2004 at 12:22 AM.
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    Fella's are you serious by saying a muscle could be recovered if it's still sore. This is hilarious. If a part of your body is causing you pain it's not healed yet. Pain is a way for our body to tell us something is wrong and needs attention and rest. These things are so basic we need not to learn them, we come into the world knowing it. If you muscle is sore it's not better yet. That's as simple as I can put it. Onslaught tell I am wrong here, because your above post tell me I am.
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    Qoute by Jminis:

    Pain is a way for our body to tell us something is wrong and needs attention and rest. These things are so basic we need not to learn them, we come into the world knowing it.

    One would think so, huh.

    Iron Addict
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    Our body also tells us to eat constantly and to crave calorically dense food. Look at where listening to our bodies has gotten the majority of this country. The body isn't always right.

    Soreness, or lack thereof, is not a complete -- the be all and end all -- indicator of recovery.
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    And I'm still waiting for some scientific proof. Not you guys repeating stuff that you've heard other people say who heard it from other people, and so on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaulJimenez
    The body cannot repair and build muscle at the same time, period.
    Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. "Building" muscle is "repairing" the microtrauma caused by resistance training, the "repairs" just happen to be bigger.
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    Repeated eccentric exercise bouts do not exacerbate muscle damage and repair.

    Nosaka K, Newton M.

    Exercise and Sports Science, Graduate School of Integrated Science, Yokohama City University, Yokohama, Japan. nosaka@vc-net.ne.jp.

    This study examined whether performing repeated bouts of eccentric exercise 2 and 4 days after an initial damaging bout would exacerbate muscle damage. One arm performed 3 sets of 10 eccentric actions of the elbow flexors (ECC1) using a dumbbell set at 50% of the maximal isometric force at 90 degrees (SINGLE). Two weeks later the same exercise was performed by the opposite arm with the exception that subsequent bouts were performed 2 (ECC2) and 4 (ECC3) days after ECC1 (REPEATED). In the REPEATED condition, maximal isometric force (MIF) decreased to the same level immediately after ECC1-3, and the decreases in range of motion (ROM) and increases in upper arm circumference immediately postexercise were similar among the bouts. However, no significant differences in changes in MIF, ROM, muscle soreness, and plasma creatine kinase activity were evident between the SINGLE and REPEATED conditions when excluding the changes immediately after ECC2 and ECC3. These results suggest that ECC2 and ECC3 did not exacerbate muscle damage or affect the recovery process.
    Last edited by Onslaught; 01-12-2004 at 12:19 AM.
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    Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2001 Oct;33(10):1732-8. Related Articles, Links

    Effects of a 7-day eccentric training period on muscle damage and inflammation.

    Chen TC, Hsieh SS.

    Department of Ball-Related Sports Science, Taipei Physical Education College, Taipei City, Taiwan. trevor@tpec.edu.tw

    PURPOSE: This study examined the effects of a 7-d repeated maximal isokinetic eccentric training period on the indicators of muscle damage and inflammatory response. METHODS: Twenty-two college-age males were randomly assigned to eccentric training (ET) (N = 12) and control groups (CON) (N = 10). The initial exercise was 30 repetitions of maximal voluntary isokinetic eccentric contraction (ECC1) on nondominant elbow flexors with Cybex 6000 at 60 degrees.s-1 angular velocity. The ET group performed the same exercise for the following 6 consecutive days (referred to as ECC2 to ECC7) after ECC1. Upper arm circumference (CIR), range of motion (ROM), and maximal isometric force (MIF) were measured before, immediately after, and every 24 h for 7 consecutive days after ECC1. Plasma creatine kinase (CK), lactate dehydrogenase (LDH), glutamic oxaloacetate transaminase (GOT), leukocyte counts, and serum interleukin-1beta and -6 (IL-1beta, IL-6) levels were assessed before; at 2 h; and at 1, 3, 4, 6, and 7 d after ECC1. Muscle soreness was measured before and for 7 consecutive days after ECC1. RESULTS: The ECC1 produced significant changes in most of the measures for both groups (P < 0.05), with the exception of leukocyte counts (P > 0.05). No indicators of increased damage (P > 0.05) were found from ECC2 to ECC7 for the ET group. CONCLUSION: Continuous intensive isokinetic eccentric training performed with damaged muscles did not exacerbate muscle damage and inflammation after ECC1. In addition, a muscular "adaptation effect" may occur as early as 24 h after ECC1, as shown by the ET group's performance for 6 consecutive days after ECC1.
    Last edited by Onslaught; 01-12-2004 at 12:16 AM.
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    Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1995 Sep;27(9):1263-9. Related Articles, Links

    Muscle damage following repeated bouts of high force eccentric exercise.

    Nosaka K, Clarkson PM.

    Department of Science, Yokohama City University, Japan.

    This study was designed to test the hypothesis that performing repeated bouts of eccentric exercise when muscles were not recovered from previous exercise would exacerbate muscle damage. Twelve nonweight-trained males (21.7 +/- 2.4 yr) performed three sets of 10 eccentric actions of the elbow flexors (ECC) using a dumbbell that was set at 80% of the preexercise maximal isometric force level. This same exercise was repeated 3 and 6 d after the first exercise. Maximal isometric force, relaxed and flexed elbow joint angle, muscle soreness, plasma creatine kinase, and glutamic-oxaloacetic transaminase activities were assessed. Ultrasound images were taken from the upper arm. These measures (except soreness) were assessed immediately before and after each eccentric exercise bout (ECC1, ECC2, and ECC3) and 3 d after ECC3. Soreness was assessed prior to ECC1 and once a day for 9 d thereafter. All criterion measures changed significantly (P < 0.01) after ECC1. ECC2 and ECC3 performed 3 and 6 d after ECC1 did not exacerbate damage and did not appear to slow the recovery rate. Increased echointensity in ultrasound images was demonstrated following ECC1, but no indication of increased damage was found after ECC2 and ECC3. Strenuous exercise performed with "damaged" muscles did not exacerbate damage or affect the repair process.
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    Eur J Appl Physiol. 2001 Mar;84(3):180-6. Related Articles, Links

    Markers of inflammation and myofibrillar proteins following eccentric exercise in humans.

    MacIntyre DL, Sorichter S, Mair J, Berg A, McKenzie DC.

    School of Rehabilitation Sciences, University of British Columbia, T325 2211 Wesbrook Mall, Vancouver, BC V6T 2B5, Canada. macintyr@interchange.ubc.ca

    The purpose of this study was to examine the time-course and relationships of technetium-99m (99mTc) neutrophils in muscle, interleukin-6 (IL-6), myosin heavy chain fragments (MHC), eccentric torque, and delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) following eccentric exercise in humans. Twelve male subjects completed a pre-test DOMS questionnaire, performed a strength test and had 100 ml blood withdrawn for analysis of plasma IL-6 and MHC content. The neutrophils were separated, labelled with 99mTc, and re-infused into the subjects immediately before the exercise. Following 300 eccentric repetitions of the right quadriceps muscles on an isokinetic dynamometer, the subjects had 10 ml of blood withdrawn with repeated the eccentric torque exercise tests and DOMS questionnaire at 0, 2, 4, 6, 20, 24, 48, 72 h, and 6 and 9 days. Bilateral images of the quadriceps muscles were taken at 2, 4, and 6 h. Computer analysis of regions of interest was used to determine the average count per pixel. The 99mTc neutrophils and IL-6 increased up to 6 h post-exercise (P < 0.05). The neutrophils were greater in the exercised muscle than the non-exercised muscle (P < 0.01). The DOMS was increased from 0 to 48 h, eccentric torque decreased from 2 to 24 h, and MHC peaked at 72 h post-exercise (P < 0.001). Significant relationships were found between IL-6 and 2 h and DOMS at 24 h post-exercise (r = 0.68) and assessment of the magnitude of change between IL-6 and MHC (r = 0.66). These findings suggest a relationship between damage to the contractile proteins and inflammation, and that DOMS is associated with inflammation but not with muscle damage.
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    If you ask me (Hi I started this tread, lol!. kidding) "nothing" is period or scientifically proven when it comes to something as individual and complex as the human body. After all theres a ****load of them walking this earth. If id break my leg the doctors would tell me that the pain i feel when trying to squat (!) was telling me to leave it alone because it needed rest. On the flip side, if id sprain my ankle theyd actually tell me that it would be good to walk as normal because that would speed up healing..
    But trusting the "scientifically proven" is too easy in any context since everyone seems to be able to find studies that fit their point like a glove..
    (Please excuse the spelling since im not english =)...

    Dont get me wrong though, im loving the discussion since that was actually the point of my post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onslaught
    Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. "Building" muscle is "repairing" the microtrauma caused by resistance training, the "repairs" just happen to be bigger.
    Sorry but you don't know anything about human physiology, and those studies you posted prove nothing about it, anwyays Im not gonna keep debating this point , is absolutely worthless, keep training under microtrauma , let's see how you grow.
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    Relations between muscle soreness and biochemical and functional outcomes of eccentric exercise.

    Rodenburg JB, Bar PR, De Boer RW.

    Department of Medical Physiology and Sports Medicine, Janus Jongbloed Research Centre, Utrecht University, The Netherlands.

    Correlations between functional and biochemical outcomes of eccentric exercise and between these outcomes and "delayed-onset muscle soreness" (DOMS) were studied. Maximal isotonic force, extension and flexion angle of the elbow, creatine kinase activity, and myoglobin concentration in serum were measured in 27 male subjects during 5 days after 120 maximal eccentric contractions of the forearm flexors. Significant correlations were found between values at 1 to 96 h after exercise for force (r = 0.55 to 0.96), flexion (0.52 to 0.94), extension (0.41 to 0.95), and myoglobin (0.55 to 0.97) and at 24 to 96 h for creatine kinase (0.67 to 0.96) and DOMS (0.45 to 0.72). Clusters of significant correlations (0.32 to 0.91) were found among all functional and biochemical measures. DOMS, however, showed only few and lower correlations with the other parameters (0.34 to 0.63). These results can practically be interpreted as follows: 1) subjects need more time to recover completely when early deviations after eccentric exercise are large, 2) a large change in one measure is accompanied by large deviations in other measures, and 3) objective outcomes of eccentric exercise are more accurate parameters than a DOMS score for use in effect studies.

    PMID: 8365997 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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    Effect of training on eccentric exercise-induced muscle damage.

    Balnave CD, Thompson MW.

    Department of Biological Sciences, Faculty of Health Sciences, University of Sydney, Lidcombe, New South Wales, Australia.

    Eccentric muscle contractions generate delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS), possibly as a result of the high tensions involved causing muscle damage. Muscle function, serum indicators of muscle damage, and DOMS were investigated throughout a training regimen that involved a 40-min eccentric walk down a 25% gradient on a treadmill at 6.4 km/h once a week for 8 wk. Serum creatine kinase and myoglobin concentrations were used as indicators of muscle damage, and both demonstrated a delayed increase after the exercise protocol. The muscles that contracted eccentrically exhibited low-frequency fatigue, as well as decreases in muscle fatigability and maximal voluntary contraction force, which were greatest immediately postexercise. Although the results show that training reduces DOMS, the serum muscle protein response, and muscle function impairment, the time courses of these adaptations are different.[b] It is suggested that the function of the muscle can be impaired without apparent muscle damage.

    PMID: 8282602 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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    Muscle soreness and serum creatine kinase activity following isometric, eccentric, and concentric exercise.

    Clarkson PM, Byrnes WC, McCormick KM, Turcotte LP, White JS.

    Serum creatine kinase (CK) activity and subjective ratings of muscle soreness were assessed in 28 college women following three different arm flexion exercise regimens. The subjects were randomly assigned to an eccentric, isometric, or concentric exercise regimen. Each regimen was equated for total work time and work-to-rest ratio. Blood samples for determination of serum CK activity and perceived soreness ratings were obtained prior to and 5, 10, and 25 h following each exercise. Significant increases in perceived soreness ratings were observed for each exercise regimen. The magnitude of the post-exercise increase in perceived soreness was greatest for the eccentric and the isometric exercises with minimal soreness following the concentric exercise. A small but significant increase in serum CK activity was observed following the three exercises (eccentric = 35.8%, concentric = 37.6%, isometric = 34.0%). The post-exercise serum CK increases did not differ significantly among the three regimens. The rise in serum CK activity suggests that muscle damage occurred during all three tasks. However, due to multiple factors which can affect serum CK levels, the increase in serum CK activity may not provide a sensitive indicator of the magnitude of the injury.

    Publication Types:
    Clinical Trial
    Randomized Controlled Trial

    PMID: 3733311 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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    For every study I found that says there is no muscle damage there is another saying there is muscle damage , that's the beauty of science.
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    My studies proved nothing? That's bull****. At least mine pertained to the debate at hand. None of your studies showed anything about repeated bouts of exercise and "muscle damage", recovery, or DOMS. Whereas, all of mine did.
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    Dude why you gotta be so smart about it? specially calling me bull**** , lets debate as mature adults ok?
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    Exercise is a form of strss to the muscles and the overall physical system. Intense exercise will stimulate a compensatory buildup of muscle tissue, which will enable the body to cope with the stress of intense exercise again in the near future with less disturbance and fewer demands on the body's limited resource. Take to the extremes, as is the case with most bodybuilders who overtrain, the exercise will place a drain on the recuperative subsystem of the body that prevents the buildup of added muscle tissue because all of the reserves will be used up in an attempt to overcome the depletion cause by the overtraining. The body always keeps in mind the primacy of energy; added tissue growth is a minor concern when compared to the acquisition and recovery of our physical energy and subsystems specially microtrauma in the muscle cells.

    The first thing your body must do after the workout is not build a mountain, i.e., the new muscle growth on top, but fill the hole you've made below. That is, it must recover, overcome the deficit, compensate for the exhaustive effects of the workout. Now the important point: the process of recovery is not completed in five minutes after the workout. In fact, the completion of the recovery process may take up to several days, possibly even longer, before the body will have the opportunity to start building the mountain,i.e, produce muscle growth (keeping in mind that if you work out before the recovery process is completed, you will short-circuit the growth process).
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    Sorry for the "bull****" comment, sincerely. A bit harsh, I suppose. But you claimed that everything I posted "proved nothing"; yet you said nothing to discredit any of the studies. Sorry, but you're not going to convince me with "no sorry, that's not how it is". I'm not going to be that easily swayed unless I see some science. As I said before, the abstracts you posted aren't pertinent nor defeat anything that I have said.

    I'm not saying there isn't recovery time needed, I never said that at all. We have deviated greatly from the intial topic of this thread. My argument was not whether or not the muscle is "damaged" after resistance training. We both know that's a big "duh" right there. However, I do have one question, if recovery is not the act of rebuilding broken down tissue, then what is it? (That's not meant to sound snippy, although I'm sure it does. It's a serious question though.)

    Anyway, to get back on topic. The one abstract I clearly stated that the presence of DOMS is associated with inflamation and not muscle damage. Therefore, one can still be sore even if there wasn't any muscle damage. IOW, there could be full recovery with DOMS still present. The other abstracts I posted showed that repeated bouts of exercise did not further any muscle damage nor inhibit recovery. I'm sorry, but it's really hard to argue with those abstracts.

    Again, I never said resistance training didn't damage muscles nor was recovery needed. It was simply that, just because a muscle is still sore, that does not mean it's not recovered and not ready to be trained again. All of the abstracts I posted support this.
    Last edited by Onslaught; 01-12-2004 at 01:55 PM.
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    Onslaught
    on the flipside, there can be muscle damage without (or reduced) inflammation.
    To answer the initial post of this topic, how long should you take off before working the same body part, I suggest trial and error... you want to take the minimum time off between workouts that maximizes your strength increases.
    Are there any suggestions as to how to know (since muscle soreness is not the greatest indicator of muscle recouperation [or lack-there-of]) when you are ready to train that body part again?
    cc
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onslaught
    Again, I never said resistance training didn't damage muscles nor was recovery needed. It was simply that, just because a muscle is still sore, that does not mean it's not recovered and not ready to be trained again. All of the abstracts I posted support this.
    In a bodybuilders world if your muscle is sore then it's not recovered. Were not planting flowers here and wake up with a sore back from bending over. Were lifting the heaviest weight possible for a set number of reps. We are not the norm we go above and beyond what the body was meant to do. If you work out and two days later your muscle is still sore (pain) do you think it's a wise move to hit that muslce again. Listening to your body is key here, and what you said above about people's bodies craving fatty foods, that's a mental addiction. Your body will crave whatever you choose to eat more of.

    Also Iron addict explain to him why it is that when you train normal everyday people and cut back on their volume they start to grow and develope muscle. Why is it that when you take them off of that FLEX routine (overtraining) they start to sprout little muscles. How can this be explained, because surely before they were training and still sore because they they were hitting each muscle twice a week? Proof is in the pudding bro. There are studies out there that will say steroids don't help muscle growth and we know that is not true.
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    jminis,

    You are assuming things that I never said. No one ever mentioned volume, that is not the topic of this debate. Everyone knows that the FLEX routines are completely retarded. Obviously if one knows nothing about volume they're going to screw up. I cannot argue that.

    Also, this is not the place for a nutrition debate, but wanting to eat calorically dense foods is not a "mental addiction". It's called instinct. You ought to read Lyle McDonald's new ebook, as he does a really good job at explaining this.

    Ok, so none of you are going to acknowledge the studies I posted. Can't say I understand why, but if you want to ignore concrete evidence, I can't do anything about it.

    If training through DOMS isn't good for hypertrophy then why does Bryan Haycock advocate doing this with HST? I'm sure this man is more educated than anyone here. If you need anecdotal evidence that training through DOMS doesn't impair hypertrophy go check out some HST feedback.
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