Recuperation and DOMS
- 01-12-2004, 01:02 AM
Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1995 Sep;27(9):1263-9. Related Articles, Links
Muscle damage following repeated bouts of high force eccentric exercise.
Nosaka K, Clarkson PM.
Department of Science, Yokohama City University, Japan.
This study was designed to test the hypothesis that performing repeated bouts of eccentric exercise when muscles were not recovered from previous exercise would exacerbate muscle damage. Twelve nonweight-trained males (21.7 +/- 2.4 yr) performed three sets of 10 eccentric actions of the elbow flexors (ECC) using a dumbbell that was set at 80% of the preexercise maximal isometric force level. This same exercise was repeated 3 and 6 d after the first exercise. Maximal isometric force, relaxed and flexed elbow joint angle, muscle soreness, plasma creatine kinase, and glutamic-oxaloacetic transaminase activities were assessed. Ultrasound images were taken from the upper arm. These measures (except soreness) were assessed immediately before and after each eccentric exercise bout (ECC1, ECC2, and ECC3) and 3 d after ECC3. Soreness was assessed prior to ECC1 and once a day for 9 d thereafter. All criterion measures changed significantly (P < 0.01) after ECC1. ECC2 and ECC3 performed 3 and 6 d after ECC1 did not exacerbate damage and did not appear to slow the recovery rate. Increased echointensity in ultrasound images was demonstrated following ECC1, but no indication of increased damage was found after ECC2 and ECC3. Strenuous exercise performed with "damaged" muscles did not exacerbate damage or affect the repair process.
- 01-12-2004, 01:15 AM
Eur J Appl Physiol. 2001 Mar;84(3):180-6. Related Articles, Links
Markers of inflammation and myofibrillar proteins following eccentric exercise in humans.
MacIntyre DL, Sorichter S, Mair J, Berg A, McKenzie DC.
School of Rehabilitation Sciences, University of British Columbia, T325 2211 Wesbrook Mall, Vancouver, BC V6T 2B5, Canada. [email protected]
The purpose of this study was to examine the time-course and relationships of technetium-99m (99mTc) neutrophils in muscle, interleukin-6 (IL-6), myosin heavy chain fragments (MHC), eccentric torque, and delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) following eccentric exercise in humans. Twelve male subjects completed a pre-test DOMS questionnaire, performed a strength test and had 100 ml blood withdrawn for analysis of plasma IL-6 and MHC content. The neutrophils were separated, labelled with 99mTc, and re-infused into the subjects immediately before the exercise. Following 300 eccentric repetitions of the right quadriceps muscles on an isokinetic dynamometer, the subjects had 10 ml of blood withdrawn with repeated the eccentric torque exercise tests and DOMS questionnaire at 0, 2, 4, 6, 20, 24, 48, 72 h, and 6 and 9 days. Bilateral images of the quadriceps muscles were taken at 2, 4, and 6 h. Computer analysis of regions of interest was used to determine the average count per pixel. The 99mTc neutrophils and IL-6 increased up to 6 h post-exercise (P < 0.05). The neutrophils were greater in the exercised muscle than the non-exercised muscle (P < 0.01). The DOMS was increased from 0 to 48 h, eccentric torque decreased from 2 to 24 h, and MHC peaked at 72 h post-exercise (P < 0.001). Significant relationships were found between IL-6 and 2 h and DOMS at 24 h post-exercise (r = 0.68) and assessment of the magnitude of change between IL-6 and MHC (r = 0.66). These findings suggest a relationship between damage to the contractile proteins and inflammation, and that DOMS is associated with inflammation but not with muscle damage.
01-12-2004, 04:06 AM
If you ask me (Hi I started this tread, lol!. kidding) "nothing" is period or scientifically proven when it comes to something as individual and complex as the human body. After all there´s a ****load of them walking this earth. If i´d break my leg the doctors would tell me that the pain i feel when trying to squat (!) was telling me to leave it alone because it needed rest. On the flip side, if i´d sprain my ankle they´d actually tell me that it would be good to walk as normal because that would speed up healing..
But trusting the "scientifically proven" is too easy in any context since everyone seems to be able to find studies that fit their point like a glove..
(Please excuse the spelling since i´m not english =)...
Don´t get me wrong though, i´m loving the discussion since that was actually the point of my post.
01-12-2004, 07:38 AM
Sorry but you don't know anything about human physiology, and those studies you posted prove nothing about it, anwyays Im not gonna keep debating this point , is absolutely worthless, keep training under microtrauma , let's see how you grow.Originally Posted by Onslaught
01-12-2004, 08:04 AM
Relations between muscle soreness and biochemical and functional outcomes of eccentric exercise.
Rodenburg JB, Bar PR, De Boer RW.
Department of Medical Physiology and Sports Medicine, Janus Jongbloed Research Centre, Utrecht University, The Netherlands.
Correlations between functional and biochemical outcomes of eccentric exercise and between these outcomes and "delayed-onset muscle soreness" (DOMS) were studied. Maximal isotonic force, extension and flexion angle of the elbow, creatine kinase activity, and myoglobin concentration in serum were measured in 27 male subjects during 5 days after 120 maximal eccentric contractions of the forearm flexors. Significant correlations were found between values at 1 to 96 h after exercise for force (r = 0.55 to 0.96), flexion (0.52 to 0.94), extension (0.41 to 0.95), and myoglobin (0.55 to 0.97) and at 24 to 96 h for creatine kinase (0.67 to 0.96) and DOMS (0.45 to 0.72). Clusters of significant correlations (0.32 to 0.91) were found among all functional and biochemical measures. DOMS, however, showed only few and lower correlations with the other parameters (0.34 to 0.63). These results can practically be interpreted as follows: 1) subjects need more time to recover completely when early deviations after eccentric exercise are large, 2) a large change in one measure is accompanied by large deviations in other measures, and 3) objective outcomes of eccentric exercise are more accurate parameters than a DOMS score for use in effect studies.
PMID: 8365997 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
01-12-2004, 08:04 AM
Effect of training on eccentric exercise-induced muscle damage.
Balnave CD, Thompson MW.
Department of Biological Sciences, Faculty of Health Sciences, University of Sydney, Lidcombe, New South Wales, Australia.
Eccentric muscle contractions generate delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS), possibly as a result of the high tensions involved causing muscle damage. Muscle function, serum indicators of muscle damage, and DOMS were investigated throughout a training regimen that involved a 40-min eccentric walk down a 25% gradient on a treadmill at 6.4 km/h once a week for 8 wk. Serum creatine kinase and myoglobin concentrations were used as indicators of muscle damage, and both demonstrated a delayed increase after the exercise protocol. The muscles that contracted eccentrically exhibited low-frequency fatigue, as well as decreases in muscle fatigability and maximal voluntary contraction force, which were greatest immediately postexercise. Although the results show that training reduces DOMS, the serum muscle protein response, and muscle function impairment, the time courses of these adaptations are different.[b] It is suggested that the function of the muscle can be impaired without apparent muscle damage.
PMID: 8282602 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
01-12-2004, 08:08 AM
Muscle soreness and serum creatine kinase activity following isometric, eccentric, and concentric exercise.
Clarkson PM, Byrnes WC, McCormick KM, Turcotte LP, White JS.
Serum creatine kinase (CK) activity and subjective ratings of muscle soreness were assessed in 28 college women following three different arm flexion exercise regimens. The subjects were randomly assigned to an eccentric, isometric, or concentric exercise regimen. Each regimen was equated for total work time and work-to-rest ratio. Blood samples for determination of serum CK activity and perceived soreness ratings were obtained prior to and 5, 10, and 25 h following each exercise. Significant increases in perceived soreness ratings were observed for each exercise regimen. The magnitude of the post-exercise increase in perceived soreness was greatest for the eccentric and the isometric exercises with minimal soreness following the concentric exercise. A small but significant increase in serum CK activity was observed following the three exercises (eccentric = 35.8%, concentric = 37.6%, isometric = 34.0%). The post-exercise serum CK increases did not differ significantly among the three regimens. The rise in serum CK activity suggests that muscle damage occurred during all three tasks. However, due to multiple factors which can affect serum CK levels, the increase in serum CK activity may not provide a sensitive indicator of the magnitude of the injury.
Randomized Controlled Trial
PMID: 3733311 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
01-12-2004, 08:11 AM
For every study I found that says there is no muscle damage there is another saying there is muscle damage , that's the beauty of science.
01-12-2004, 11:34 AM
My studies proved nothing? That's bull****. At least mine pertained to the debate at hand. None of your studies showed anything about repeated bouts of exercise and "muscle damage", recovery, or DOMS. Whereas, all of mine did.
01-12-2004, 01:20 PM
Dude why you gotta be so smart about it? specially calling me bull**** , lets debate as mature adults ok?
01-12-2004, 01:32 PM
Exercise is a form of strss to the muscles and the overall physical system. Intense exercise will stimulate a compensatory buildup of muscle tissue, which will enable the body to cope with the stress of intense exercise again in the near future with less disturbance and fewer demands on the body's limited resource. Take to the extremes, as is the case with most bodybuilders who overtrain, the exercise will place a drain on the recuperative subsystem of the body that prevents the buildup of added muscle tissue because all of the reserves will be used up in an attempt to overcome the depletion cause by the overtraining. The body always keeps in mind the primacy of energy; added tissue growth is a minor concern when compared to the acquisition and recovery of our physical energy and subsystems specially microtrauma in the muscle cells.
The first thing your body must do after the workout is not build a mountain, i.e., the new muscle growth on top, but fill the hole you've made below. That is, it must recover, overcome the deficit, compensate for the exhaustive effects of the workout. Now the important point: the process of recovery is not completed in five minutes after the workout. In fact, the completion of the recovery process may take up to several days, possibly even longer, before the body will have the opportunity to start building the mountain,i.e, produce muscle growth (keeping in mind that if you work out before the recovery process is completed, you will short-circuit the growth process).
01-12-2004, 02:27 PM
Sorry for the "bull****" comment, sincerely. A bit harsh, I suppose. But you claimed that everything I posted "proved nothing"; yet you said nothing to discredit any of the studies. Sorry, but you're not going to convince me with "no sorry, that's not how it is". I'm not going to be that easily swayed unless I see some science. As I said before, the abstracts you posted aren't pertinent nor defeat anything that I have said.
I'm not saying there isn't recovery time needed, I never said that at all. We have deviated greatly from the intial topic of this thread. My argument was not whether or not the muscle is "damaged" after resistance training. We both know that's a big "duh" right there. However, I do have one question, if recovery is not the act of rebuilding broken down tissue, then what is it? (That's not meant to sound snippy, although I'm sure it does. It's a serious question though.)
Anyway, to get back on topic. The one abstract I clearly stated that the presence of DOMS is associated with inflamation and not muscle damage. Therefore, one can still be sore even if there wasn't any muscle damage. IOW, there could be full recovery with DOMS still present. The other abstracts I posted showed that repeated bouts of exercise did not further any muscle damage nor inhibit recovery. I'm sorry, but it's really hard to argue with those abstracts.
Again, I never said resistance training didn't damage muscles nor was recovery needed. It was simply that, just because a muscle is still sore, that does not mean it's not recovered and not ready to be trained again. All of the abstracts I posted support this.
Last edited by Onslaught; 01-12-2004 at 02:55 PM.
01-12-2004, 02:55 PM
on the flipside, there can be muscle damage without (or reduced) inflammation.
To answer the initial post of this topic, how long should you take off before working the same body part, I suggest trial and error... you want to take the minimum time off between workouts that maximizes your strength increases.
Are there any suggestions as to how to know (since muscle soreness is not the greatest indicator of muscle recouperation [or lack-there-of]) when you are ready to train that body part again?
01-12-2004, 02:59 PM
In a bodybuilders world if your muscle is sore then it's not recovered. Were not planting flowers here and wake up with a sore back from bending over. Were lifting the heaviest weight possible for a set number of reps. We are not the norm we go above and beyond what the body was meant to do. If you work out and two days later your muscle is still sore (pain) do you think it's a wise move to hit that muslce again. Listening to your body is key here, and what you said above about people's bodies craving fatty foods, that's a mental addiction. Your body will crave whatever you choose to eat more of.Originally Posted by Onslaught
Also Iron addict explain to him why it is that when you train normal everyday people and cut back on their volume they start to grow and develope muscle. Why is it that when you take them off of that FLEX routine (overtraining) they start to sprout little muscles. How can this be explained, because surely before they were training and still sore because they they were hitting each muscle twice a week? Proof is in the pudding bro. There are studies out there that will say steroids don't help muscle growth and we know that is not true.
01-12-2004, 03:28 PM
You are assuming things that I never said. No one ever mentioned volume, that is not the topic of this debate. Everyone knows that the FLEX routines are completely retarded. Obviously if one knows nothing about volume they're going to screw up. I cannot argue that.
Also, this is not the place for a nutrition debate, but wanting to eat calorically dense foods is not a "mental addiction". It's called instinct. You ought to read Lyle McDonald's new ebook, as he does a really good job at explaining this.
Ok, so none of you are going to acknowledge the studies I posted. Can't say I understand why, but if you want to ignore concrete evidence, I can't do anything about it.
If training through DOMS isn't good for hypertrophy then why does Bryan Haycock advocate doing this with HST? I'm sure this man is more educated than anyone here. If you need anecdotal evidence that training through DOMS doesn't impair hypertrophy go check out some HST feedback.
01-12-2004, 03:29 PM
There's no magic formula. As agreed upon before, recovery time is highly individual. Genetics, lifestyle, nutrition, etc are all huge factors in this. The best thing to do is to keep a detailed training log, experiment, and become familiar with Excel.
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