Recuperation and DOMS
- 01-12-2004, 08:04 AM
Effect of training on eccentric exercise-induced muscle damage.
Balnave CD, Thompson MW.
Department of Biological Sciences, Faculty of Health Sciences, University of Sydney, Lidcombe, New South Wales, Australia.
Eccentric muscle contractions generate delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS), possibly as a result of the high tensions involved causing muscle damage. Muscle function, serum indicators of muscle damage, and DOMS were investigated throughout a training regimen that involved a 40-min eccentric walk down a 25% gradient on a treadmill at 6.4 km/h once a week for 8 wk. Serum creatine kinase and myoglobin concentrations were used as indicators of muscle damage, and both demonstrated a delayed increase after the exercise protocol. The muscles that contracted eccentrically exhibited low-frequency fatigue, as well as decreases in muscle fatigability and maximal voluntary contraction force, which were greatest immediately postexercise. Although the results show that training reduces DOMS, the serum muscle protein response, and muscle function impairment, the time courses of these adaptations are different.[b] It is suggested that the function of the muscle can be impaired without apparent muscle damage.
PMID: 8282602 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
- 01-12-2004, 08:08 AM
Muscle soreness and serum creatine kinase activity following isometric, eccentric, and concentric exercise.
Clarkson PM, Byrnes WC, McCormick KM, Turcotte LP, White JS.
Serum creatine kinase (CK) activity and subjective ratings of muscle soreness were assessed in 28 college women following three different arm flexion exercise regimens. The subjects were randomly assigned to an eccentric, isometric, or concentric exercise regimen. Each regimen was equated for total work time and work-to-rest ratio. Blood samples for determination of serum CK activity and perceived soreness ratings were obtained prior to and 5, 10, and 25 h following each exercise. Significant increases in perceived soreness ratings were observed for each exercise regimen. The magnitude of the post-exercise increase in perceived soreness was greatest for the eccentric and the isometric exercises with minimal soreness following the concentric exercise. A small but significant increase in serum CK activity was observed following the three exercises (eccentric = 35.8%, concentric = 37.6%, isometric = 34.0%). The post-exercise serum CK increases did not differ significantly among the three regimens. The rise in serum CK activity suggests that muscle damage occurred during all three tasks. However, due to multiple factors which can affect serum CK levels, the increase in serum CK activity may not provide a sensitive indicator of the magnitude of the injury.
Randomized Controlled Trial
PMID: 3733311 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
01-12-2004, 08:11 AM
For every study I found that says there is no muscle damage there is another saying there is muscle damage , that's the beauty of science.
01-12-2004, 11:34 AM
My studies proved nothing? That's bull****. At least mine pertained to the debate at hand. None of your studies showed anything about repeated bouts of exercise and "muscle damage", recovery, or DOMS. Whereas, all of mine did.
01-12-2004, 01:20 PM
Dude why you gotta be so smart about it? specially calling me bull**** , lets debate as mature adults ok?
01-12-2004, 01:32 PM
Exercise is a form of strss to the muscles and the overall physical system. Intense exercise will stimulate a compensatory buildup of muscle tissue, which will enable the body to cope with the stress of intense exercise again in the near future with less disturbance and fewer demands on the body's limited resource. Take to the extremes, as is the case with most bodybuilders who overtrain, the exercise will place a drain on the recuperative subsystem of the body that prevents the buildup of added muscle tissue because all of the reserves will be used up in an attempt to overcome the depletion cause by the overtraining. The body always keeps in mind the primacy of energy; added tissue growth is a minor concern when compared to the acquisition and recovery of our physical energy and subsystems specially microtrauma in the muscle cells.
The first thing your body must do after the workout is not build a mountain, i.e., the new muscle growth on top, but fill the hole you've made below. That is, it must recover, overcome the deficit, compensate for the exhaustive effects of the workout. Now the important point: the process of recovery is not completed in five minutes after the workout. In fact, the completion of the recovery process may take up to several days, possibly even longer, before the body will have the opportunity to start building the mountain,i.e, produce muscle growth (keeping in mind that if you work out before the recovery process is completed, you will short-circuit the growth process).
01-12-2004, 02:27 PM
Sorry for the "bull****" comment, sincerely. A bit harsh, I suppose. But you claimed that everything I posted "proved nothing"; yet you said nothing to discredit any of the studies. Sorry, but you're not going to convince me with "no sorry, that's not how it is". I'm not going to be that easily swayed unless I see some science. As I said before, the abstracts you posted aren't pertinent nor defeat anything that I have said.
I'm not saying there isn't recovery time needed, I never said that at all. We have deviated greatly from the intial topic of this thread. My argument was not whether or not the muscle is "damaged" after resistance training. We both know that's a big "duh" right there. However, I do have one question, if recovery is not the act of rebuilding broken down tissue, then what is it? (That's not meant to sound snippy, although I'm sure it does. It's a serious question though.)
Anyway, to get back on topic. The one abstract I clearly stated that the presence of DOMS is associated with inflamation and not muscle damage. Therefore, one can still be sore even if there wasn't any muscle damage. IOW, there could be full recovery with DOMS still present. The other abstracts I posted showed that repeated bouts of exercise did not further any muscle damage nor inhibit recovery. I'm sorry, but it's really hard to argue with those abstracts.
Again, I never said resistance training didn't damage muscles nor was recovery needed. It was simply that, just because a muscle is still sore, that does not mean it's not recovered and not ready to be trained again. All of the abstracts I posted support this.
Last edited by Onslaught; 01-12-2004 at 02:55 PM.
01-12-2004, 02:55 PM
on the flipside, there can be muscle damage without (or reduced) inflammation.
To answer the initial post of this topic, how long should you take off before working the same body part, I suggest trial and error... you want to take the minimum time off between workouts that maximizes your strength increases.
Are there any suggestions as to how to know (since muscle soreness is not the greatest indicator of muscle recouperation [or lack-there-of]) when you are ready to train that body part again?
01-12-2004, 02:59 PM
In a bodybuilders world if your muscle is sore then it's not recovered. Were not planting flowers here and wake up with a sore back from bending over. Were lifting the heaviest weight possible for a set number of reps. We are not the norm we go above and beyond what the body was meant to do. If you work out and two days later your muscle is still sore (pain) do you think it's a wise move to hit that muslce again. Listening to your body is key here, and what you said above about people's bodies craving fatty foods, that's a mental addiction. Your body will crave whatever you choose to eat more of.Originally Posted by Onslaught
Also Iron addict explain to him why it is that when you train normal everyday people and cut back on their volume they start to grow and develope muscle. Why is it that when you take them off of that FLEX routine (overtraining) they start to sprout little muscles. How can this be explained, because surely before they were training and still sore because they they were hitting each muscle twice a week? Proof is in the pudding bro. There are studies out there that will say steroids don't help muscle growth and we know that is not true.
01-12-2004, 03:28 PM
You are assuming things that I never said. No one ever mentioned volume, that is not the topic of this debate. Everyone knows that the FLEX routines are completely retarded. Obviously if one knows nothing about volume they're going to screw up. I cannot argue that.
Also, this is not the place for a nutrition debate, but wanting to eat calorically dense foods is not a "mental addiction". It's called instinct. You ought to read Lyle McDonald's new ebook, as he does a really good job at explaining this.
Ok, so none of you are going to acknowledge the studies I posted. Can't say I understand why, but if you want to ignore concrete evidence, I can't do anything about it.
If training through DOMS isn't good for hypertrophy then why does Bryan Haycock advocate doing this with HST? I'm sure this man is more educated than anyone here. If you need anecdotal evidence that training through DOMS doesn't impair hypertrophy go check out some HST feedback.
01-12-2004, 03:29 PM
There's no magic formula. As agreed upon before, recovery time is highly individual. Genetics, lifestyle, nutrition, etc are all huge factors in this. The best thing to do is to keep a detailed training log, experiment, and become familiar with Excel.
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