So I'm reading a thread and some guy is talking about how "only p***ies use machines. Real men use free weights." I've seen this plenty of times but I'm finally tired of it. I just wanted to bring up a point. Does anyone here know who was the man who really made these machines so popular? He invented God knows how many machines. And this guy was no p***y. His name was Arthur Jones. He flew planes during WWII, after which he started catching wild animals for a living to sell to zoos and what not (including gorillas, gators, snakes, etc). While living in Rhodesia he was bitten by animals, shot twice, and axed. That's right, I said AXED! But he just kept on going. He didn't live there because he had too. He lived there because he wanted to. He wasn't going to let some stupid civil wars tell him where he could or couldn't live. He is the man responsible for nautilus and MedX. His sons are the creators of hammer strength, bowflex, soloflex, all that. I suggest you read up about this guy (he has an autobiography) and rethink your idea of what a p***y is. Cause this guy was probably tougher than any person on this board. I can almost guarantee it. He created these workout machines that "only p***ies use." If a real man created it, a real man can use it. The only p***y is the guy who doesn't take advantage of a good thing because he's afraid people will make fun of him and he'll be emasculated. I'm not saying everyone should go out and do a workout using nothing but machines. I know I don't. I only use a couple machines here and there. But machines have advantages over free weights sometimes. It's time to be a man. Do what's best for your body, not best for your ego.

I avoid machines because they're generally not as effective as free weights. I use the cables though, they come in handy for a handful of things.

Originally Posted by ozarkaBRAND

I avoid machines because they're generally not as effective as free weights. I use the cables though, they come in handy for a handful of things.

I would say I agree with this, to an extent. However, I HAVE put on muscle with machines and I think machines definitely have their place in bodybuilding.

I personally use machines here and there. If you dont wanna worry about stabilizing yourself say then with a machine u can really load on the weight which is good. Im not saying to totally rely on machines either also sometimes the angles of certain machines to me anyways hits your muscle better than weights do but I do like both the key is to keep your muscles guessing

There's a time and place for machines in the gym. Now if you're into powerlifting, machines may not be your best bet, but if you're bodybuilding, you can't throw machines out the window so easily. They're especially useful for people wanting to rehab an injury, because it allows you to work against resistance along a set path, rather than working against the resistance of gravity when working with free weights. But you can use that to your advantage as well, even if you're not rehabing from an injury. So if a machine only allows you to work against resistance along a set path, you have to figure out where that can be used to your advantage in your workouts. There are many machines that I feel are necessary for total muscle development: leg extensions, leg curls, hack squats, machine pullovers, cable exercises. Whoever says machines are useless is a moron.

So you can't automatically knock every machine. The trick is to use the equipment to your advantage. Machines shouldn't take up the majority of your workout though; I'd say no more than 1/4 of your exercises should be on machines.

Machines are fine to use. Anyone who tells you otherwise has no clue what they are talking about. But I dont feel machines should be the basis of someones program. Freeweights should be the staple with machines thrown in around them.

I use dem der machines.

Machines are fine. Mass building exercises are the compound movements but machines are good for isolation. The biggest problem with machines is friction and that makes the negative part of the movement easier than the positive. I did a set on a machine with so much friction once that the stack stayed at the top after the positive. That was a fun negative

The stabilizers used during free weight movements amount to nothing more than extra calories burned (and not many). The extra energy used by the stabilizers is energy that could be better used by the muscles being trained. The stabilizers are not receiving enough stimulation to cause growth so sometimes it isn't worth using them. Just my 2 cents.

Originally Posted by MrSquat

The stabilizers used during free weight movements amount to nothing more than extra calories burned (and not many). The extra energy used by the stabilizers is energy that could be better used by the muscles being trained. The stabilizers are not receiving enough stimulation to cause growth so sometimes it isn't worth using them. Just my 2 cents.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that...

Stabilizing muscles contract to balance the body in respect to the lift you're performing. To perform certain lifts, to allow the targeted muscles to perform the lift, certain muscles have to contract to balance the body, to allow it perform the lift. Though these stabilizing muscles don't go through a full range of motion, which is generally the point, they do contract isometrically. These muscles aren't directly involved in lifting the weight, but they do stabilize the body. Sometimes the muscles that are used to stabilize a certain lift, might be muscles you are going to work on the next day. These muscles might be muscles you never actually work directly, but they are still important nonetheless.

There are good reasons why you'd want the body to have to stabilize the weight. First of all, muscles used for stabilizing the body during a certain lift do receive enough stimulating for muscle growth. Why do people advocate the use of squats and deadlifts so much? It's because lifts such as these require the body to stabilize itself (to the maximum), calling in numerous muscle groups to help stabilize the body. The squat and deadlift are strongly recommended in your program if you're trying to gain maximum strength and mass because the lifts themselves require numerous muscle groups to work to their maximum effort, and many more muscles are forced to isometrically contract to help stabilize the body to perform the lift.

Also, you want to strengthen your stabilizing muscles because without strong stabilizing muscles, you won't be able to lift as much weight in your regular lifts. This even goes outside the gym, concerning functional strength. Machines force your muscles to have to work against a resistance along a certain path. The muscles are set into a certain angle, therefore the movements are always super strict. Now although sometimes this can be used to your advantage, for the most part, it goes against what your main goal should be; to strengthen and develop your muscles from as many angles as possible, so that you activate and stimulate the maximum amount of muscle fibers. So when you work outside this range that you've been accustomed to resisting, you strength will drastically reduced, since your muscles won't be accustomed to that movement. So though you might be strong on certain machines, along certain set paths, you might find lifting a couch more difficult that it should be. This idea remains as the gym as well. If you tried to do certain lifts, such as a squat, a pressing movement, or a deadlift, and you haven't trained your stabilizing muscles, then you're not going to be able to lift a large amount of weight, i can promise you that.

So stabilizing muscles are more important to us than we usually give them credit for. I'm sure there are other good reasons why you'd want to have strong, developed stabilizing muscles. I can't imagine being able to achieve your maximum developmental potential without full working every muscle group to the fullest.

Originally Posted by Joshua86

First of all, muscles used for stabilizing the body during a certain lift do receive enough stimulating for muscle growth.

Show some proof of this please. Besides, if they did then there is no growth stimulation on the target muscles. Please explain how two different muscles with different fiber types and orientations can both receive a stimulation causing growth from the same movement.

Why do people advocate the use of squats and deadlifts so much? It's because lifts such as these require the body to stabilize itself (to the maximum), calling in numerous muscle groups to help stabilize the body.

Numerous muscles are used yes but they are not recommended because they use stabilizers. They are recommended for the reason you mentioned. They are compound movements that use more than one muscle and IMO compound movements are for mass not isolation movements.

I can't imagine being able to achieve your maximum developmental potential without full working every muscle group to the fullest.

And as you apparently know there are certain machine movements that can't be duplicated with free weights so why are you obviously anti-machine?

Machines are a necessary evil from time to time,... therefore, are my friends!!!

Exactly..If I'm doing 4 sets of something, I'll do 3 sets free weights and finish off with a set on a machine at much heavier weight.

Originally Posted by geronimo542

I personally use machines here and there. If you dont wanna worry about stabilizing yourself say then with a machine u can really load on the weight which is good. Im not saying to totally rely on machines either also sometimes the angles of certain machines to me anyways hits your muscle better than weights do but I do like both the key is to keep your muscles guessing

Machines can be used for your benefit, of course. Earlier in this thread I stated my opinion on the benefits of certain exercise machines. I'm in no way knocking machines! That last post I made was in reply to you, concerning stabilizing muscles.

But as far as my post about stabilizing muscles, I'm pretty sure I'm right on. So sure in fact, that I don't find it necessary to have to site that information. So you can do your own research if you want. For the most part, anything I say on these boards is going to be something I've learned through reading (from a credible source) or experience, rather than me just pulling something out of my butt because it sounds good. But know that I'm not trying to argue a point with you, I'm just stating the facts. Peace, my friend...

Originally Posted by Joshua86

But as far as my post about stabilizing muscles, I'm pretty sure I'm right. So sure in fact, that I don't find it necessary to have to site that information.

IOW, you can't support your opinion with facts and the only reason for your post was to "prove" the facts I posted wrong based on nothing more than your opinion. Gotcha...and I understand you have a PhD in broscience.

Originally Posted by MrSquat

IOW, you can't support your opinion with facts and the only reason for your post was to "prove" the facts I posted wrong based on nothing more than your opinion. Gotcha...and I understand you have a PhD in broscience.

Concerning the importance of building strength in your stabilizing muscles:
How to Weight Train for Maximum Muscle Gain
Understanding So-Called Stabilizer Muscles >> Medical Questions, Weight Loss, Pregnancy, Drugs, Health Insurance

Concerning the squat and the deadlift, and the importance of stabilizing muscles:
Bodybuilding.com - Charles Ridgely - Exercise Of The Week: Barbell Squats!
Bodybuilding.com - David Robson - Deadlifts: The King Of Mass-Builders?
** These two very important lifts can not be duplicated with machines.


It didn't take me very long to find these articles...

also another thing is you can really load the crap outta machines with weight and not have to worry about stabilizing the weight just man up and push that heavy weight but be careful not to get too accustomed to the machines cause you def need those stabilizer muscles when lifting or doin anything

Originally Posted by Joshua86

Concerning the importance of building strength in your stabilizing muscles:
How to Weight Train for Maximum Muscle Gain
Understanding So-Called Stabilizer Muscles >> Medical Questions, Weight Loss, Pregnancy, Drugs, Health Insurance

Concerning the squat and the deadlift, and the importance of stabilizing muscles:
Bodybuilding.com - Charles Ridgely - Exercise Of The Week: Barbell Squats!
Bodybuilding.com - David Robson - Deadlifts: The King Of Mass-Builders?
** These two very important lifts can not be duplicated with machines.


It didn't take me very long to find these articles...

Now please show me exactly where those articles say that the stabilizers receive growth stimulus from a movement that is designed to stimulate growth in another muscle with a different distribution and orientation of muscle fibers. I thank you for linking to articles but since I didn't say free weights were useless I don't follow your choice since that isn't what I said.

Originally Posted by MrSquat

Now please show me exactly where those articles say that the stabilizers receive growth stimulus from a movement that is designed to stimulate growth in another muscle with a different distribution and orientation of muscle fibers

I sort of get where you're going with that question, but... Yeah...

The more muscles you use to help perform a lift, the more overload you're going to create, therefore you're going to induce more hypertrophy. You won't necessarily create enough overload to induce hypertrophy in those said stabilizer muscles (whatever they may be), but you will strengthen and develop them. This is why big, heavy compound lifts, that target so many muscles to come into play, are the best exercises for maximum mass and strength gains. I can't get any clearer than that. Did you even read those articles?

And anyway, I've made my point, and this is going to be my last post in this thread, which I think has already served it's purpose.

Peace

Originally Posted by Joshua86

You won't necessarily create enough overload to induce hypertrophy in those said stabilizer muscles (whatever they may be), but you will strengthen and develop them.

Not that you may not stimulate growth in the stabilizers, you won't.

This is why big, heavy compound lifts, that target so many muscles to come into play, are the best exercises for maximum mass and strength gains.

Yes, big compound lifts build mass as I said but it is not in the stabilizers The stabilizers in one movement are the primary lifters in another movement and it is that that causes the growth not any movement where they are stabilizers.

Did you even read those articles?

Yes and only one claims there is growth in the stabilizers yet it has no citation for the authors opinion.

Peace

What?! no have a good workout

:squat::dl:

Originally Posted by MrSquat

The stabilizers used during free weight movements amount to nothing more than extra calories burned (and not many). The extra energy used by the stabilizers is energy that could be better used by the muscles being trained. The stabilizers are not receiving enough stimulation to cause growth so sometimes it isn't worth using them. Just my 2 cents.

Interesting thought. What if a person's stabilizing muscles fatigued before the primary movers? I would assume this would provide stimulation for growth, at least until the secondary muscles caught up with the primary.

Thoughts, anyone?

Originally Posted by ShakesAllDay

Interesting thought. What if a person's stabilizing muscles fatigued before the primary movers? I would assume this would provide stimulation for growth, at least until the secondary muscles caught up with the primary.

Thoughts, anyone?

Interesting. What I think about that, is what if they ALWAYS die out first? And what's the difference if you use them or not? I know they will allow more weight. Obviously that's true. So a good combo of the both I believe would be good. In any case, bodybuilding is all about tricking your body into thinking it's lifting heavy weights. Because even if you're lifting HUGE weights, your body won't grow as well if you don't properly manipulate your training style. So if you use machines, you don't have to worry about all that. Man I'm tired and I don't think I made any sense. I'll look at this again tomorrow and try to make it worded better.

I

I CANNOT use a machine for my biceps, feels too ineffective. However I can use them for lat/triceps every once in awhile. I made huge progress with my lats because of machines.

Machines are good if you are unsure of how to properly do an excersize with free weights at that moment, a machine will save you injury and pain.

Machines are good if you have an injured area.

Machines are good for hitting them weird spots sometimes.

While nothing gets me pumped and feeling good like free weights(which compose 80% of my lifting) Machines find their use, mostly with my legs considering the tendinitis that still lingers though I can run and lift again, I am leary of it...

Squats are scary for me....though I use a smith machine, a leg press in an emergency with my ankle, I can just let er go.....

Thinking of giving in and getting cortisone shots.... course not feeling the pain might be a bad thing....

Eh, every person has their own method. I have seen people get huge not ever going into a gym....(basic training for the marines, army [airforce doesnt count LOL, losers], and extreme personal resistance training) though they do reach lower limits in their growth without hitting the weights. So what if someone uses a machine?

My only issue with machines is you dont hit the muscles that help you stabilize the weight. you are getting more done with free weight.

Now at my gym, with 3 benches, and plenty of idiots, sometimes a machine is my only option to finish up and get out on time.

They both have their place. Free weights should make up the bulk of your workout though.