Testforce 2 and possible NDMA related hypersensetivity, etc.

[Force of Green]

Pat,

I am probably a one in a thousand people who may have a link between NDMA receptor agonism and seizures, however, I have noted some things that I have experienced whilst taking Testforce 2 that are both enjoyable in some instances and unenjoyable in other circumstances. I am not making a negative claim about your product, so let's first dispense of that notion.

I have noticed that with continued use of Testforce 2, my libido has increased to levels where it was never at the age of 16-18.

I have noticed that my levels of vigilance keep creeping up to levels that borderline hypervigilance.

I have noticed that my senses have been all heightened (including hearing sounds that people would not hear at all, try and dismiss me saying,"I'm mistaken," only to have me repeat the entire conversation I just heard with detailed information that is clearly conclusive)
My eyesight has improved to the point where I can read the TV Guid function on the crappy 19" cathode ray TV in my bedroom and I could NEVER do that before as I am 20/60 near-sighted.
When I get into a project from now on, I get 'overly-saturated' (and borderline obsessed), yet I am able to maintain heightened cognitive function while doing whatever it is I'm doing. I had a 3 week period of political indulgence and started writing articles and staying up for hours and hours having interpersonal and intrapersonal, existential debates and trying to recreate or create new concepts and philosophies such as:

Bill Keane said, "Yesterday's the past, tomorrow's the future, but today is a gift. That's why it's called the present."
I say, "The future is not a mystery, but a reflection of our history. Today is a gift, for which we can present." - Kyle Anthony Petillo
(Present is of course used in it's verbal context, therefore the expression translates to: Use the past as a blueprint for what will come of the future, should we continue this path. Now is the time for which we can allege.)

I became more aware of and investigative of certain processes that were happening in my body and in my brain and absorbed a wealth of information about dopamine being over-populated in areas of the brain that can cause schizophrenic type behavior, obsessive behavior, sexually compulsive behavior, etc.

I was in an AA meeting and I started getting social anxiety which increased my pulse rate to the point that I initially 'thought' I was having a panic attack, but I coached myself through the first few moments of it and kept positive thoughts in my mind like, "Oh, whoopty-doo. A panic attack. I guess I'll just let this play out and go with the current." Then, I ended up seeing a mixture of false color signals (auras) and had a weird taste sensation in my mouth like a sour patch kid. Immobile objects began shaking in my perception and I was really humbled by the fact that I was experiencing that which is parallel to the onset of a limbic seizure. I sat there the whole hour on a couch and held my face so my facial muscles weren't twitching like a crack addict. I found the experience of synethesia to be very interesting to say the least.

I have also noticed that my ability to empathize with others was enhanced to a VERY great degree. I ask of you to have an open-mind on the matter, but I have NEVER experienced things like these before to this degree. Some would call it hypersensetivity disorder (hypertension with BP of 155/80ish at rest, hypervigilance, increased photosensetivity, etc), but I had very high lucidity during the entire time-span. I'm not going to say anything to target myself from other members to hoorang me about me claiming to have ESP from NDMA induction, but I can say that I could gauge people EXTRAordinarily well.

Fast-forward a little bit...
I am on a low dose of Librium (10mgs, 2x a day) and Tegretol (200mg, 2x per day) and I tried weening off of it. I honestly felt that the medicine was holding me back from experiencing life at it's fullest which makes sense, because chloradiazepoxide is a benzodiazepine 'tranquilizer' and carbamazepine prevents mood changes by many mechanisms including modifying the limiting rate of voltage gates in the brain (basically a dampener or 'tranquilizer' again).

Well, I was asleep and had a seizure and was unresponsive after having several convulsions (I don't remember, but it scared the holy hell out of my girlfriend) and while in the hospital, of course I was put back on tranquilizers and the full dose of meds and not allowed Testforce 2 or anything for that matter. I was in the hospital for 4 days and then ended up coming back home.

Throughout my stay, I noticed that as the DAA saturation was probably sinking that I required more and more sleep and that whereas the first 2 days/nights that I was at the hospital, I was wide awake and highly lucid and able to hold a highly intelligent conversation from international foreign policy to the origins of the American Psychiatric Association to the dynamics of the phases of what we know as 'love' and as time went on, lucidity and interest in VERY deep philosophical content such as spiritual ascension began to dissipate.

After being home for a few days for the first time in a VERY long time (since taking Testforce 2 continuously for 3 months and another month before that, but with a week break) I started not being as interested in sex, whereas at my pinnacle of saturation I would be able to go for 8 times a day, no problem.

I started taking Testforce 2 again yesterday and then just took a dose before writing this and I felt compelled to express my findings pertaining to my own experiences.

So, Patrick. As I am legitimate in being honest and open about my experiences and the factors involved, I am asking you for your thoughts on certain issues (issues don't have to be negative) that I'm attributing to the NDMA receptor stimulation from the Testforce 2. I am aware that you could very easily dismiss this whole string of experiences by stating something like, "dude, I'm a chemist," or whatnot, but despite your profession and your qualifications you are a very innovative individual and innovation requires an open mind and critical thinking. “The greatest innovators of any field share a few characteristics in common: years of intensive preparation and technical competence.” -Sam McNerney - I would appreciate an atypical forum response to my observations as I am very interested in a least a few other things as well.

1. I am continuing to take Testforce 2 and I will let my doctor know that despite some of it's uninvited effects on myself, I think that the risk/benefit is in my favor for a higher quality of life. So, although the studies show that 3 grams of sodium DAA increase testosterone, can I achieve other results such as increased sensetivity, libido, etc. with a lower dose of Testforce 2 in order to minimize the sides and still get those benefits?

2. Have you had anyone else experience similar results?

3. Do you think that continuous use of the recommended dose can continue to increase saturation levels of DAA and increase NDMA receptor agonism in a sense such that individuals who are phenylketoneuric (however it's spelled) will continue to have climbing levels of phenylalanine?

Thanks again for reading this. Whatever your response is, I'll still continue to try and calibrate a tolerated dose of Testforce 2 or maybe take some support supplements to minimize the unwanted effects at the normal dose.

 

[Force of Green]

Okay, shortly thereafter looking up about NDMA and seizure threshold I found someone on PHF who had a similar instance and yes, I know that you have a warning on your label that I did not read. I am interested in utilizing the product for it's extraordinary potential that it has with me and I would like to know if there is any way of working around the seizure threshold. Quite frankly, I enjoy the synesthetic experiences and it's nootropic potential and I would like to find a balance. A well thought response would still be appreciated and if anyone else has useful input, please share. Thanks.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Pat,

I am probably a one in a thousand people who may have a link between NDMA receptor agonism and seizures, however, I have noted some things that I have experienced whilst taking Testforce 2 that are both enjoyable in some instances and unenjoyable in other circumstances. I am not making a negative claim about your product, so let's first dispense of that notion.

I have noticed that with continued use of Testforce 2, my libido has increased to levels where it was never at the age of 16-18.

I have noticed that my levels of vigilance keep creeping up to levels that borderline hypervigilance.

I have noticed that my senses have been all heightened (including hearing sounds that people would not hear at all, try and dismiss me saying,"I'm mistaken," only to have me repeat the entire conversation I just heard with detailed information that is clearly conclusive)
My eyesight has improved to the point where I can read the TV Guid function on the crappy 19" cathode ray TV in my bedroom and I could NEVER do that before as I am 20/60 near-sighted.
When I get into a project from now on, I get 'overly-saturated' (and borderline obsessed), yet I am able to maintain heightened cognitive function while doing whatever it is I'm doing. I had a 3 week period of political indulgence and started writing articles and staying up for hours and hours having interpersonal and intrapersonal, existential debates and trying to recreate or create new concepts and philosophies such as:


I became more aware of and investigative of certain processes that were happening in my body and in my brain and absorbed a wealth of information about dopamine being over-populated in areas of the brain that can cause schizophrenic type behavior, obsessive behavior, sexually compulsive behavior, etc.

I was in an AA meeting and I started getting social anxiety which increased my pulse rate to the point that I initially 'thought' I was having a panic attack, but I coached myself through the first few moments of it and kept positive thoughts in my mind like, "Oh, whoopty-doo. A panic attack. I guess I'll just let this play out and go with the current." Then, I ended up seeing a mixture of false color signals (auras) and had a weird taste sensation in my mouth like a sour patch kid. Immobile objects began shaking in my perception and I was really humbled by the fact that I was experiencing that which is parallel to the onset of a limbic seizure. I sat there the whole hour on a couch and held my face so my facial muscles weren't twitching like a crack addict. I found the experience of synethesia to be very interesting to say the least.

I have also noticed that my ability to empathize with others was enhanced to a VERY great degree. I ask of you to have an open-mind on the matter, but I have NEVER experienced things like these before to this degree. Some would call it hypersensetivity disorder (hypertension with BP of 155/80ish at rest, hypervigilance, increased photosensetivity, etc), but I had very high lucidity during the entire time-span. I'm not going to say anything to target myself from other members to hoorang me about me claiming to have ESP from NDMA induction, but I can say that I could gauge people EXTRAordinarily well.

Fast-forward a little bit...
I am on a low dose of Librium (10mgs, 2x a day) and Tegretol (200mg, 2x per day) and I tried weening off of it. I honestly felt that the medicine was holding me back from experiencing life at it's fullest which makes sense, because chloradiazepoxide is a benzodiazepine 'tranquilizer' and carbamazepine prevents mood changes by many mechanisms including modifying the limiting rate of voltage gates in the brain (basically a dampener or 'tranquilizer' again).

Well, I was asleep and had a seizure and was unresponsive after having several convulsions (I don't remember, but it scared the holy hell out of my girlfriend) and while in the hospital, of course I was put back on tranquilizers and the full dose of meds and not allowed Testforce 2 or anything for that matter. I was in the hospital for 4 days and then ended up coming back home.

Throughout my stay, I noticed that as the DAA saturation was probably sinking that I required more and more sleep and that whereas the first 2 days/nights that I was at the hospital, I was wide awake and highly lucid and able to hold a highly intelligent conversation from international foreign policy to the origins of the American Psychiatric Association to the dynamics of the phases of what we know as 'love' and as time went on, lucidity and interest in VERY deep philosophical content such as spiritual ascension began to dissipate.

After being home for a few days for the first time in a VERY long time (since taking Testforce 2 continuously for 3 months and another month before that, but with a week break) I started not being as interested in sex, whereas at my pinnacle of saturation I would be able to go for 8 times a day, no problem.

I started taking Testforce 2 again yesterday and then just took a dose before writing this and I felt compelled to express my findings pertaining to my own experiences.

So, Patrick. As I am legitimate in being honest and open about my experiences and the factors involved, I am asking you for your thoughts on certain issues (issues don't have to be negative) that I'm attributing to the NDMA receptor stimulation from the Testforce 2. I am aware that you could very easily dismiss this whole string of experiences by stating something like, "dude, I'm a chemist," or whatnot, but despite your profession and your qualifications you are a very innovative individual and innovation requires an open mind and critical thinking. “The greatest innovators of any field share a few characteristics in common: years of intensive preparation and technical competence.” -Sam McNerney - I would appreciate an atypical forum response to my observations as I am very interested in a least a few other things as well.

1. I am continuing to take Testforce 2 and I will let my doctor know that despite some of it's uninvited effects on myself, I think that the risk/benefit is in my favor for a higher quality of life. So, although the studies show that 3 grams of sodium DAA increase testosterone, can I achieve other results such as increased sensetivity, libido, etc. with a lower dose of Testforce 2 in order to minimize the sides and still get those benefits?

2. Have you had anyone else experience similar results?

3. Do you think that continuous use of the recommended dose can continue to increase saturation levels of DAA and increase NDMA receptor agonism in a sense such that individuals who are phenylketoneuric (however it's spelled) will continue to have climbing levels of phenylalanine?

Thanks again for reading this. Whatever your response is, I'll still continue to try and calibrate a tolerated dose of Testforce 2 or maybe take some support supplements to minimize the unwanted effects at the normal dose.

i will take another look at your message later but one thing that strikes me is that you were trying to come off a benzo while taking this product. that sounds like a problem. i dunno if someone taking such drugs for extended periods of time should be taking this at all. your brain may be in a state that is subject to hyperexcitability

 

[Force of Green]

i will take another look at your message later but one thing that strikes me is that you were trying to come off a benzo while taking this product. that sounds like a problem. i dunno if someone taking such drugs for extended periods of time should be taking this at all. your brain may be in a state that is subject to hyperexcitability

Thank you. Yes, you're right about the benzodiazepine withdrawal/hyperexcitability. It's probably not the best idea that I take this in conjunction with what I'm taking as far as medicine, but I did purposely show my doctor what I'm taking (this and AndroDrive) and he doesn't even give much merit to dietary supplements, so he just said, "well if you aren't noticing ill effects, then I don't see why I would stop you from taking this." I know that you can't recommend the supplement and that your information that you give is for educational purposes only. That being said, I'm interested mainly in finding a balance in order to get the quality of life enhancement that this product gives (for me). If a given supplement can allow one to experience something such as synethesia, unlimited sex drive (can make any half decent looking woman appear desirable), unparallelled erectile strength, deeper empathetic abilities, deeper & more saturated analytical thinking, enhanced eyesight (and all other senses), a better understanding of one's self, and some... It's almost worth it to me. Though blood pressure was on par with what 'Walgreens' considers stage 2 hypertension at rest. As days went on with discontuation of the Testforce 2 formula, blood pressure was monitored and no meds were administered and the blood pressure went down, but so did much of my cognitive abilities. I'm wondering if even some NAC would help prevent some of the hyperexcitation. I know that some of the literature is conflicting, however, I am guessing that glutamate and/or NDMA modulation could be the key to controlling unwanted sides. Or maybe I'm just walking the thin divide of sanity.

[h=2]Abstract[/h]Administration of noncompetitive NMDA/glutamate receptor antagonists, such as phencyclidine (PCP) and ketamine, to humans induces a broad range of schizophrenic-like symptomatology, findings that have contributed to a hypoglutamatergic hypothesis of schizophrenia. Moreover, a history of experimental investigations of the effects of these drugs in animals suggests that NMDA receptor antagonists may model some behavioral symptoms of schizophrenia in nonhuman subjects. In this review, the usefulness of PCP administration as a potential animal model of schizophrenia is considered. To support the contention that NMDA receptor antagonist administration represents a viable model of schizophrenia, the behavioral and neurobiological effects of these drugs are discussed, especially with regard to differing profiles following single-dose and long-term exposure. The neurochemical effects of NMDA receptor antagonist administration are argued to support a neurobiological hypothesis of schizophrenia, which includes pathophysiology within several neurotransmitter systems, manifested in behavioral pathology. Future directions for the application of NMDA receptor antagonist models of schizophrenia to preclinical and pathophysiological research are offered.

Michael Berk, David Copolov, Olivia Dean, Kristy Lu, Sue Jeavons, Ian Schapkaitz,
Murray Anderson-Hunt, Fiona Judd, Fiona Katz, Paul Katz, Sean Ording-Jespersen, John Little,
Philippe Conus, Michel Cuenod, Kim Q. Do, and Ashley I. Bush

Background:
Brain glutathione levels are decreased in schizophrenia, a disorder that often is chronic and refractory to treatment. N-acetyl

cysteine (NAC) increases brain glutathione in rodents. This study was conducted to evaluate the safety and effectiveness of oral NAC (1 g
orally twice daily [b.i.d.]) as an add-on to maintenance medication for the treatment of chronic schizophrenia over a 24-week period.

Methods:
A randomized, multicenter, double-blind, placebo-controlled study. The primary readout was change from baseline on the

Positive and Negative Symptoms Scale (PANSS) and its components. Secondary readouts included the Clinical Global Impression (CGI)
Severity and Improvement scales, as well as general functioning and extrapyramidal rating scales. Changes following a 4-week treatment
discontinuation were evaluated. One hundred forty people with chronic schizophrenia on maintenance antipsychotic medication were
randomized; 84 completed treatment.

Results:
Intent-to-treat analysis revealed that subjects treated with NAC improved more than placebo-treated subjects over the study

period in PANSS total [

5.97 (
10.44,
1.51), p .009], PANSS negative [mean difference
1.83 (95% confidence interval:
3.33,
.32),

p
.018], and PANSS general [
2.79 (
5.38,
.20), p.035], CGI-Severity (CGI-S) [
.26 (
.44,
.08), p.004], and CGI-Improvement (CGI-I)

[

.22 (
.41,
.03), p .025] scores. No significant change on the PANSS positive subscale was seen. N-acetyl cysteine treatment also was

associated with an improvement in akathisia (
p .022). Effect sizes at end point were consistent with moderate benefits.

Conclusions:
These data suggest that adjunctive NAC has potential as a safe and moderately effective augmentation strategy for chronic

schizophrenia.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

To be honest I am kind of worried about you. you sound like you may got a little bit of mania going and this could be due to factors beyond the testforce 2. I know people get some very positive psych benefits from the stuff but what you are describing seems a little off the wall

 

[madchemist]

I am on a low dose of Librium (10mgs, 2x a day) and Tegretol (200mg, 2x per day) and I tried weening off of it.

You seized after coming off librium & tegretol?

 

[madchemist]

3. Do you think that continuous use of the recommended dose can continue to increase saturation levels of DAA and increase NDMA receptor agonism in a sense such that individuals who are phenylketoneuric (however it's spelled) will continue to have climbing levels of phenylalanine?

PKU is only dangerous for neonates, or the fetus' of a PKU mother not on a PKU diet.

 

[Force of Green]

To be honest I am kind of worried about you. you sound like you may got a little bit of mania going and this could be due to factors beyond the testforce 2. I know people get some very positive psych benefits from the stuff but what you are describing seems a little off the wall

Yes, I can say for sure that it feels like hypomania. Awareness of what's going on brings a calm sense of control and acceptance. I am a somewhat 'off-the-wall' character to begin with, but the same can be said about a lot of people. Whether they can admit it or not is another story and how people perceive them varies individually, but that's not the point.

I guess the one question I am curious about is this: Despite the study that states that anything below 3 grams daily (or whatever) did not produce an increase in testosterone, can I still achieve some of the POSITIVE 'psych' effects on a lower dose? (libido, cognitive abilities, etc).

A whopping dose of caffeine can jack up testosterone levels quite a bit when used pre-workout, but it also raises cortisol to unwanted levels and most likely adrenaline. I am wondering if I have to try it at my own risk to lower the possibility of unpleasant sides and find a good balance. If I can take a couple doses a day of the DAA calcium chelate in 500mg, 3x increments I would do it. As with any other psychotropic compound, there is a therapeudic range and then outside of that lies the recreational value. I don't really find recreation in using this, I do however find that it could be possible to achieve a 'therapeudic dosage' and I'm really not interested in the test boosting numbers, so long as I am still experiencing the effects of all the benefits.

 

[Force of Green]

PKU is only dangerous for neonates, or the fetus' of a PKU mother not on a PKU diet.

Thank you Madchemist. It's always good to learn something(s) new.

 

[Force of Green]

You seized after coming off librium & tegretol?

I had been using the Testforce2 for some time and then maintained the Tegretol dose, whilst titrating down the Librium. Even at a stable dose of both medications, caffeine doesn't effect me as prominent nor do other stimulants if used at low doses (I don't really need stims nor use them except iced tea). I'm not trying to blame the Testforce 2 for anything, I'm trying to figure out what exactly can be done to keep the benefits and help exclude the somewhat negative effects.

I took 1 serving of Testforce 2 yesterday and while I feel VERY on point and focused, I have a job interview today and don't really want to experience anything off ill nature as well

 

[Force of Green]

To be honest I am kind of worried about you. you sound like you may got a little bit of mania going and this could be due to factors beyond the testforce 2. I know people get some very positive psych benefits from the stuff but what you are describing seems a little off the wall

I'm 'normally' a little off-the-wall anyways. I'll try capping it and taking 700mg, 3x per day and maybe take 2 servings on weekends to lower the saturation level.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

I guess the one question I am curious about is this: Despite the study that states that anything below 3 grams daily (or whatever) did not produce an increase in testosterone, can I still achieve some of the POSITIVE 'psych' effects on a lower dose? (libido, cognitive abilities, etc).
.

No study has ever suggested that. 3 grams was shown to raise testosterone but they did not explore lower doses to see if they did as well

 

[Patrick Arnold]

I had been using the Testforce2 for some time and then maintained the Tegretol dose, whilst titrating down the Librium. Even at a stable dose of both medications, caffeine doesn't effect me as prominent nor do other stimulants if used at low doses (I don't really need stims nor use them except iced tea). I'm not trying to blame the Testforce 2 for anything, I'm trying to figure out what exactly can be done to keep the benefits and help exclude the somewhat negative effects.

I took 1 serving of Testforce 2 yesterday and while I feel VERY on point and focused, I have a job interview today and don't really want to experience anything off ill nature as well

Nobody has reported such acute dramatic responses to the product as you have so I dont know what to think

 

[Force of Green]

Thanks for your time and responses. I realize that my brain is very sensetive to things due to a number of factors, so I backed off the dose a little bit and added in a few things to help out with any overstimulation. I started lithium orotate and NAC to protect from excess glutamate, etc. I am back on 2 scoops of Testforce 2 per day and I use about 3/4 of a scoop each time (shake a little out) and I am well balanced with things. With my medicine on a lower dose (too low at the time), I was experiencing crazy effects. However, now I still get the energy, focus, sex drive, increased sensetivity and sharper thought process without having convulsive issues. Anywho, thanks again!

 

[Patrick Arnold]

i hadnt taken test force in a while but after reading ur posts i tried it again. and i actually am feeling a lot of the same things u report. definite stimulation