[EasyEJL]

I had about nada for sides (only some lethargy, and almost no back pumps!) myself on a straight cycle, but I preloaded with cycle support, dropped all other supps but fish oil, no creatine, etc. did keep high on beta alanine + BCAAs + taurine. Will be getting bloodwork soon

[DBinMD]

Originally Posted by CuChulainn

Right on, no offense taken... i am not entirely sure i WANT to be at my genetic maximum I am nearly 6'4", and i really have no desire to be hovering around 230-250. I am sure that it bears a good amount of the responsibility for my good gains. (the point of what i said previously was more in reference to sides than my gains, for what thats worth.)

That’s too, bad, I think I’d give my left nut to be 6’4 250, but then I guess that would be stupid. IMO, your dosages didn’t get high for a pulse until the third week so that could explain lack of sides. It may be a little harder next time, I can’t say with any certainty.

Originally Posted by CuChulainn

The reason behind the rest of my theorization is that virtually none of the auxiliary support substances have significantly more short and long term research done as far as side effects are concerned (especially when considering taking more than one of these substances at once) than do the anabolic in question. Which, to my mind, elevates them to the realm of being potentially part of the problem rather than the solution, ESPECIALLY when people are taking 10+ supplements at any given time. On top of this, these supplements aren't exactly super-regulated to the point where you can guarantee precisely the same ingredients in any given supplement of that type.

PS's:
No significant short/long term research
Consistency is more a matter of trust in the lab you are buying from than anything

Other supplements:
Little/no significant short/long term research solo
NO short/long term research on possible reactions between supplements
Consistency is a matter of trust in your supplier than anything

Combining the two becomes a whole big bag of unknown, same as the reason why most people suggest you try each PS solo before you stack would it not make sense to try the supps in a similar fashion?

To a large degree, I agree with you about the sups, especially when they don’t supply the dosages of each item. To me that’s a red flag. I guess their argument is that the ratio of the ingredients is propriety, but that’s their problem. A total of 1000mg of 10 ingredients tells me nothing. When the company does take the time to list each item and dose, it is then possible do your own research and come to an intelligent conclusion. Pubmed is a great place to start. Some ingredients actually do have some good studies behind them, at least solo. Then the only question is: was the label honest about the doses and how your body will react. That’s what’s nice about msg boards, everyone has an opinion and sometimes there’s enough anecdotal evidence to at least sift thru the worst of them. If the ingredients are detailed, it isn’t hard for someone to have them independently tested and discuss any significant discrepancies. There does seem to be companies (IMO a minority) whose long term reputation is important to them. Eventually, you get an idea who you can trust (as least as well as anyone else). Trust is an issue everywhere including mainstream companies. Actually, there are some DS’s that have more science than the sups (like the epi clones). You weren’t rambling, you brought up some good points.

IMO, most of this is safe if used prudently. With all of the people doing this stuff, you’d think there’d be a million stories out there. I’ve heard a few, but that involved a lot of abuse.

[CuChulainn]

Originally Posted by DBinMD

That’s too, bad, I think I’d give my left nut to be 6’4 250, but then I guess that would be stupid. IMO, your dosages didn’t get high for a pulse until the third week so that could explain lack of sides. It may be a little harder next time, I can’t say with any certainty.

Well it might not mind being that big if i were built like this:


Though i am still not sure i would want to be THAT big. One of my buddies has 22" arms and jesus, its ****ing HUGE! If i can get to 19" i will be more than pleased. I think i will be happy with 210@8% (if i can get there), but ask me again in a year, who knows my goal then might be 235@8%

It would certianly help me dominate at rugby

[CuChulainn]

216 this morning, 2 doses to go (today and friday)

[CuChulainn]

216.8 this morning, but i ****ed up yesterday... must have jacked up my diet somehow (i drank plenty of water, had plenty of potassium and not abnormal amounts of sodium) because i had some WICKED cramps. Perhaps it could just be 4th week side effects, or because of the 30/day dosage. Quite irritating. Playing some football today so i should be able to make up for part of the crappy leg workout i had yesterday =D

[CuChulainn]

though i did have a cup of coffee earlier in the day.... that never caused it before though.

/confused

[DBinMD]

Originally Posted by CuChulainn

216.8 this morning, but i ****ed up yesterday... must have jacked up my diet somehow (i drank plenty of water, had plenty of potassium and not abnormal amounts of sodium) because i had some WICKED cramps. Perhaps it could just be 4th week side effects, or because of the 30/day dosage. Quite irritating. Playing some football today so i should be able to make up for part of the crappy leg workout i had yesterday =D

Sounds pretty bad. They weren't by any chance abdominal? For years (decades) I've have a tendency to get them often when doing leg presses or situps. I've learned to look for the early signs and take a good drink of water. Usually, then they'll subside, otherwise I'm done. But that's usually near the end of my wo anyway. Last blood test I had said my potassium was actually a little high and sodium normal so I don't think potassium and sodium are the entire picture. I think some of it comes from the more intense training.

If you're convinced you've done everything right, then accept it as a side effect that happens and not be too pissed off about it unless it keeps happening. One other thing you could try is lighten up on the creatine if you're taking any. Creatine mimics sodium in that it retains water. I think you said you're near the end anyway, so it probably doesn't matter.

DB

[CuChulainn]

not taking any creatine, saving it for PCT to help solidify gains. The cramps i have been having were in my neck = / (specifically the underlying muscle that sits under the traps) I will just accept it as side effects, no biggie, only one more dose anyhow. Very interested to see what i end up netting after PCT. (Hopefully on sat/sun i will make it to 218, though its not terribly likely, though I had a rough game of football today, so tomorrows dose should hit me like a ton of bricks... i hope, it did last week)

[CuChulainn]

Well I am done with m-drol for now. still sitting at ~216, so that puts me up 13#

Bad stats:
+1" waist
+1.5" hips (sorta good sorta bad, i gained a lot in my glutes, so its hard to tell what is muscle what is fat)

Good stats:
+2.5" chest
+1" across shoulders
+1" neck
+2" right quad
+1.5" left quad
+0.75" right bicep
+1" left bicep
+0.25" right and left forearms
+0" right calf (it looks like it has grown, i swear... i was estimating big numbers, as it "looks" bigger)
+0.5" left calf

anyway, all together phenomenal run.

will do again! +rep CEL

Already looking forward to my next cycle. Unfortunately (i want to keep growing, not near satisfied) it will be a cutting cycle as i feel bad that my girl has to sexify this tubby beast. From there i will try and do a clean bulk until i am satisfied.

I think i will just resign myself to having basketball player calves (my soleus is very strong and pretty big, but my gastroc is thoroughly unimpressive unless i am flexing)

[DBinMD]

Originally Posted by CuChulainn

anyway, all together phenomenal run.

will do again! +rep CEL

Good job. I wouldn’t worry about the waist and hips measurements, it’s the proportion that counts and everything else is impressive. Personally, I’ve stopped worrying too much about calves. And be extra careful the next few weeks in case your hormone levels aren’t back to normal.

[silverSurfer]

Originally Posted by CuChulainn

Well I am done with m-drol for now. still sitting at ~216, so that puts me up 13#

Congrtulations on your gains! Are you continuing the log for your PCT? I'm interested in your post PCT weight retention.

[CuChulainn]

Originally Posted by silverSurfer

Congrtulations on your gains! Are you continuing the log for your PCT? I'm interested in your post PCT weight retention.

1 week PCT i am at 215.6, so weight has remained roughly the same, and strength seems up a bit. Feeling really good so far. Will keep you updated.

[CuChulainn]

I need ideas guys... in about a month, maybe a little more, i plan to start cutting down my chub. the problem is i am really concerned about losing all this muscle i have built. Would i be better off to keep bulking until I can do another cycle (this time of H-drol) to drop the ~20lbs of fat i need to get rid of without losing any muscle mass? (I figure on H-drol i should be able to drop 2lbs a week easily, which would let me drop about 8-12lbs per h-drol cycle). I have also considered stacking h-drol with t3 in order to drop the whole 20lbs in 1 cycle (that would put me at 8-9%bf). I am totally willing to drop the weight naturally, but I really do not know how much cal/day i can cut while still building/retaining mass.

Right now my plan looks sorta like this:
bulk for another 3 weeks.
Starting in 3 weeks, begin eating a protein centric diet, consuming ~2000k/cal day, and add HIIT 3/week to my current lifting schedule. Maintain that for as long as fat loss continues at a decent pace, then start a H-drol cycle and hopefully lose the rest. Then proceed to lean bulk from there until i reach my goals.

Advice anybody?

Side note: PCT seems to be going great, I started creatine again and my arms feel like they are going to explode (in a good way) during my workouts. ITS AWESOME. I get far more of a pump now than I ever did before, i wonder why that is? Hell the pump now is stronger than when i was on cycle.

[EasyEJL]

depending on you, you might be able to get away with dropping carbs almost entirely, going to a really low cal diet, but maintaining high protein levels (200+g a day) and loose fat while maintaining muscle

[CuChulainn]

danke, will give it a try... how long after the end of my cycle can i start cutting without an increased chance of muscle loss?