Hdrol Cycle Setup + Questions

pebble

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I have been reading on and off about PHs for about a year now and will be doing my first cycle soon. I figured I would go with a PH commonly accepted as mild; I have chosen Hdrol.

My goal is more recomp than mass, but I will not complain if I add a little bit of fat to gain a little extra muscle. I would like to add around 7-10lbs of muscle by the end of cycle. More muscle is always welcome, but I want to set realistic goals so I am not disappointed at the end of this experience.

Background
Age:25
Height: 5'8''
Weight: 173lbs
BF: Approx 12-15%
Training Exp:4 years, 2 serious
Diet: Current - 3200-3400kcal/d, On Cycle - 3700-4000kcal/d

Regularly used supplements
Creatine
BCAA
Fish Oil
Multi

10 week Cycle
Pre Load/ Cycle Support (2 weeks)
Generic Milk Thistle
Hawthorn
Fish Oil
Saw Palmetto/ Nizoral (know this isn't a supplement but I will only be using for the cycle)
- I hate the idea I may shed; I hope this helps.

On Cycle (4weeks)
Hdrol 25mg x 2
Cycle Support (as listed in pre load)

Post Cycle
(4 weeks)
AE Rebound
AE Retain2
Cycle Support (as listed in pre load)
SERM? - Toremifene
120mcgx5d/ 90mcgx7d/ 60mcgx7d / 30mcgx9d

From all the reading it seems like not everyone thinks a SERM is necessary for this mild of a cycle. I am going to play it on the safe side and go ahead with Torem(liquid).

I have everything on hand right now except the Torem (on the way). I will not be starting the cycle (Hdrol) until I have the Torem on hand, but have already started the preload.

Questions
How do the Kcals looks? Will I need more?
Does it look like I have everything necessary?
Remove something?
How about the setup of Torem? Should I adjust the amounts?
Is there any problem with having the preload run longer if I encounter problems acquiring the Torem?

Any additional advice would be appreciated. And if you need more info feel free to ask.
 

Schism

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For me those calories might be a little high at 173lbs for a recomp effect. That might be suited better for a bulk imo.
Did I understand your post correctly your going to run H-drol for a total of 10 weeks?
 
pebble

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Hdrol will be run for 4 weeks total. The total of the cycle will be 10 weeks including preload + on cycle (Hdrol during this time) + pct.

I maintain my weight at about 2900 Kcal. Seeing as I was gaining weight slowly with 3200-3400 I figured I should increase my calories a little to take full advantage of the Hdrol. Is this the wrong approach?
 

Schism

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Hdrol will be run for 4 weeks total. The total of the cycle will be 10 weeks including preload + on cycle (Hdrol during this time) + post cycle therapy.

I maintain my weight at about 2900 Kcal. Seeing as I was gaining weight slowly with 3200-3400 I figured I should increase my calories a little to take full advantage of the Hdrol. Is this the wrong approach?
No, not at all. You know your metabolism better than anyone else. So yea, anywhere from a 400-600 above maintenance spike in cals should be good if your looking to make some solid gains. Honestly you could go higher than that (I take-in anywhere from 4500-5000 when I bulk) if your just trying to bulk. But for a re-comp that should be about right.
Just make shure your not eating a lot of garbage if you want those cuts to come through.
 
pebble

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My diet is in check.

Anyone else notice something that needs to be altered? Is there something I could do to increase my likelihood of success for this cycle that I have missed? Or does everything look like its good to go?

This will be my first cycle and I am a little nervous. I was hoping for a little more feedback/ assurance that I am doing this right.
 
EasyEJL

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is there a reason to take the separate support supps rather than cycle support? its simpler and more well rounded I think if you take cycle support. Or is that on top of cycle support? hard to say :)

might want to run the 120 only 3 days on torem, its almost overkill at your halo dosage.

And thats the only other thing, you may want to keep in mind the possibility of raising the dosage in week 3 or 4. 75mg is not unreasonable at all, particularly if you are not getting noticeable side effects.
 
pebble

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is there a reason to take the separate support supps rather than cycle support? its simpler and more well rounded I think if you take cycle support. Or is that on top of cycle support? hard to say :)
During and post cycle when it says Cycle Support was simply instead of repeating what I posted as Cycle supports for the preload. Sorry about the confusion. I will edit the original post to make it clear. Should I I purchase I on cycle support such as AE Perfect Cycle or a similar product or will my own cycle supports be enough?

might want to run the 120 only 3 days on torem, its almost overkill at your halo dosage.
Drop down to 90 and the 2 days to the other 7 at 90? Seeing as you think the amount may be over kill do you suggest only running torem for 3 weeks?
Something like ...
120mcg x 3d
90mcg x 5d
60mcg x 6d
30 mcg x 7d

What about if I do pushiit to 75mg for the 3rd and 4th week depending on sides? Keep the original Torem setup or still go 120mcg x 3d instead of 5d?

Thanks
 
CROWLER

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You are taking the Cycle Support so you don't need extra

ic Milk Thistle
Hawthorn
Saw Palmetto

Also for PCT I would go with POST Cycle Support it works great with Cycle Support!


CROWLER
 
EasyEJL

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your support supps should be fine, I like this product

http://store.anabolicminds.com/product/anabolic-innovations/cycle-support-60-servings.html

as its an all in one product. A little simpler that way, and a nice rounded support. up to you, if you want to use this there is a 5% off coupon in my signature for it.

this torem dosing you mentioned

120mcg x 3d
90mcg x 5d
60mcg x 6d
30 mcg x 7d
should be fine even with 75mg weeks 3+4. if you notice actual testicle shrinkage, or experience severe libido drop (neither of which is likely at all) you might want to go with your initial dosing scheme.
 
celc5

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Your overall plan looks good to me. Things that caught my attention:

-I would NOT use a serm for halo if you run it for 4 weeks at 50mg

-Even if you did choose a compound that warrants a serm, your dosages are about double what studies would recommend for your bodyweight.

-Halo is not very androgenic but the Nizarol is a nice addition. Use it 3x/week or it will fry your scalp. Use a TON of conditioner which will help

-I agree that your cals look high for recomp at your weight. Do a label check, remeasure portion sizes, and do a few fitday run throughs because I bet your baseline caloric assessment is off

-consider adding niacin for cholesterol to your support supps

-save your creatine for post cycle. You won't need it ON cycle cause halo gives you a nice workout boost.
 
poopypants

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things look good, and I cant say Id change anyhting other then what was already mentioned, sorry Im late to the game. Good luck man.
 
pebble

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Your overall plan looks good to me. Things that caught my attention:

-I would NOT use a serm for halo if you run it for 4 weeks at 50mg
-Even if you did choose a compound that warrants a serm, your dosages are about double what studies would recommend for your bodyweight.
Even with the adjustments I made with EJLs recommendations?
What do you suggest?
What about if I do increase the dose to 75mg for weeks 3 and 4?

-Halo is not very androgenic but the Nizarol is a nice addition. Use it 3x/week or it will fry your scalp. Use a TON of conditioner which will help
Thanks for the tip.

-I agree that your cals look high for recomp at your weight. Do a label check, remeasure portion sizes, and do a few fitday run throughs because I bet your baseline caloric assessment is off
I keep a log of all my food intake. I am meticulous in measuring my food on my digital scale. I prepare most of my meals before the week starts and have all portions divided into the proper serving size. I am pretty sure about my current maintenance level. So with 2900Kcal as my maintenance what do you think my consumption should be to reach my goals?

-consider adding niacin for cholesterol to your support supps
I will get some tonight.

-save your creatine for post cycle. You won't need it ON cycle cause halo gives you a nice workout boost.
Will do.

Thanks
 
celc5

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I'd still skip the serm if I ran 50/50/75/75 IMO. I'm only on my second cycle so take my advice with a grain of salt.

Good call with the diet. I stand corrected :cheers: I'd say bump the macros by about 10% in the first week and then play it by ear.

Quite a few people say they can cut carbs with halo. My personal experience was different in that appetite was out of this world. I could eat sugar all day and the fat still kept melting away. In other words, play it by ear once you see how your body reacts

Btw, skip the flush free niacin. I've seen articles that suggest the flush free versions may be hard on the liver, which is obviously counterproductive during a methylated cycle. I personally cut my 500mg tablets into 4 and take it throughout the day with meals.
 
poopypants

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dont skip the SERM. and celc you must not be in the know with torem, its not dosed the same as nolva, his dosing schedule is PERFECT. although I still would only dose 120mg like 2-3 days then drop right to 90mg then to 60mg as planned.
 
celc5

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dont skip the SERM. and celc you must not be in the know with torem, its not dosed the same as nolva, his dosing schedule is PERFECT. although I still would only dose 120mg like 2-3 days then drop right to 90mg then to 60mg as planned.
poop, take a look over at the lean bulk forums. There's no science to suggest 120mg of torem. Paticularly, take a look at the thread called "celc5 is slightly less clueless after a convo with the doc." I also believe that serm use and post cycle plans should be dictated by the particular compound chosen. You'll see where I'm coming from... I need to remember to watch what I say on AM because there's a much different tone over here concerning serms than on other boards.
 
EasyEJL

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Paticularly, take a look at the thread called "celc5 is slightly less clueless after a convo with the doc."
i'm going to have to go read that one, just from the title :D
 
pebble

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poop, take a look over at the lean bulk forums. There's no science to suggest 120mg of torem. Paticularly, take a look at the thread called "celc5 is slightly less clueless after a convo with the doc." I also believe that serm use and post cycle plans should be dictated by the particular compound chosen. You'll see where I'm coming from... I need to remember to watch what I say on AM because there's a much different tone over here concerning serms than on other boards.
So I just read the "celc5 is slightly less clueless after a convo with the doc" and now I am a little confused about to how to dose the Torem. Also why do you suggest not bothering with a SERM?

And isn't Tamox normally dosed at 40/40/20/20? Taking the info on the link into the considerations that would put Torem at 120/120/60/60? How is it that I would be using too much if my plan is to go 120(3)/90(2)/60(6)/30(7)? I did see in the link where the doctor said 60/45/30/15 would be okay for you but I dont understand why. Mind explaining?
 
poopypants

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poop, take a look over at the lean bulk forums. There's no science to suggest 120mg of torem. Paticularly, take a look at the thread called "celc5 is slightly less clueless after a convo with the doc." I also believe that serm use and post cycle plans should be dictated by the particular compound chosen. You'll see where I'm coming from... I need to remember to watch what I say on AM because there's a much different tone over here concerning serms than on other boards.


Well Ive had similar convorsations with DrD and he has told me this is the best wa to dose toremifene, It gets in your system alot faster and is able to work ALOT better then it would work if dosed at nolva type doses, and it is considerably less Hepatoxic so there is not a worry with this dose the same it would be with Nolva.

The biggest problem is toremifene has really only recently been used like this alot for your SERM and nolva has always been the one people turn to and all the researh has been done on (although much is anecdotal) and there is not the same research thats been done on toremifene.... so its still all very anecdotal.

Although Ive run Torem at a VERY similer dose schedule after a 6 week dbol and epi cycle and got blood done at the end showing i had +600 total test and perfect liver values (i can link the blood for you since its at the start of my log for Act. Ext. wich was run right after that pct) so at the very least I know its a very effective dose and schedule and it doesnt negatively effect my liver values one bit.
 
poopypants

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poop, take a look over at the lean bulk forums. There's no science to suggest 120mg of torem. Paticularly, take a look at the thread called "celc5 is slightly less clueless after a convo with the doc." I also believe that serm use and post cycle plans should be dictated by the particular compound chosen. You'll see where I'm coming from... I need to remember to watch what I say on AM because there's a much different tone over here concerning serms than on other boards.
also just caught this at the start of your post...

Torem has postive effects on HDL.
-He estimates 60mg of torem to correspond with 20mg of tamox.
-Tamox is sometimes associated with nausea and cataracts. It is possible that these negative sides haven't been shown with torem "yet" because there are less studies available on torem (I believe it was NOT doc's intent to insinuate that torem will have these sides, just pointing out that it's newer on the market).
while 20mg of nolva is a normal dose when used in PCT everyone ive ever spoken with suggests starting with 60mg and ramping down so why wouldnt this translate into a similar dosing schedule for torem???

if anything according to that ratio it would mean he should start at 180mg and that hes underdosing.

either way ill stick by my guns with what ive been told and what i personally have blood for proving it works without any negative sides.
 
celc5

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So I just read the "celc5 is slightly less clueless after a convo with the doc" and now I am a little confused about to how to dose the Torem. Also why do you suggest not bothering with a SERM?

And isn't Tamox normally dosed at 40/40/20/20? Taking the info on the link into the considerations that would put Torem at 120/120/60/60? How is it that I would be using too much if my plan is to go 120(3)/90(2)/60(6)/30(7)? I did see in the link where the doctor said 60/45/30/15 would be okay for you but I dont understand why. Mind explaining?
Ha Ha, don't worry bro. It's a pretty common debate.

Yes, nolva is usually tapered from 40. Check out the mesomorphosis website which suggests 20mg throughout. Read through more posts on the forum I linked which also suggests a taper from 20mg unless you're over 220 pounds.

The link suggests an ideal torem dosage around 60mg, again, unless you are over about 220 pounds.

The reason that I suggest skipping the serm for halo is that it unbelievably unlikely for an sort of estrogenic repurcussion after the cycle. If I were you, I'd check out some sites where halo is more commonly logged such as discount anabolics. I believe AM to be a better source for epi logs and information right now.

Poopy, the Fareston website suggests torem to be more liver toxic than nolva. Although, since you are very good with your supplemental precautions, I'm not surprised that you got an A+ with your blood test :cheers:

Edit: poopy, regarding what you bolded in that last post (we must have posted at the same time), you are correct. Doc tends to suggest starting at 20mg of nolva as well, although I rarely see him recommend nolva or torem.
 
poopypants

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Ha Ha, don't worry bro. It's a pretty common debate.

Yes, nolva is usually tapered from 40. Check out the mesomorphosis website which suggests 20mg throughout. Read through more posts on the forum I linked which also suggests a taper from 20mg unless you're over 220 pounds.

The link suggests an ideal torem dosage around 60mg, again, unless you are over about 220 pounds.

The reason that I suggest skipping the serm for halo is that it unbelievably unlikely for an sort of estrogenic repurcussion after the cycle. If I were you, I'd check out some sites where halo is more commonly logged such as discount anabolics. I believe AM to be a better source for epi logs and information right now.

Poopy, the Fareston website suggests torem to be more liver toxic than nolva. Although, since you are very good with your supplemental precautions, I'm not surprised that you got an A+ with your blood test :cheers:

Edit: poopy, regarding what you bolded in that last post (we must have posted at the same time), you are correct. Doc tends to suggest starting at 20mg of nolva as well, although I rarely see him recommend nolva or torem.
no, i had no cycle support through PCT although i did use it all through my cycle itself with Dbol in the mix, woulda been foolish not to, but i ran out a couple days into pct.

and ya I know he suggests clomid for pct for its HTPA boosting effects, he has many good posts regarding this over at the AX forums. I would like to offer the opinion (no fact basis for this) that you get a better HTPA boost with torem at this high starting dose then you would with a 60mg dose.

My only reasoning for this is this, litterally. my nuts were bout half their normal size when i finished this cycle (thus the reason i wanted to make sure to get blood done this cycle) and by the end of week one they were normal size and by week 2 they were actually larger then when i started, not ****tin you it turned em into giant juevos... this was confirmed with my higher range test levels at the end of my pct. too bad i didnt get blood at the end of the cycle before pct so i could be sure how far i came but i was worried my Doc would freak. Hell he gave me enough trouble about even getting the tests done i wanted at the end of pct, giving me very anecdotal advice bout steroid use while saying he wouldnt even know how to translte my test results and an endocrinologist would have to do it. pissed me off he gave me so much trouble but at least he got it done.
 
EasyEJL

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My only reasoning for this is this, litterally. my nuts were bout half their normal size when i finished this cycle (thus the reason i wanted to make sure to get blood done this cycle)
you know I have 0 shrinkage after 8 weeks of 1-t and 3 weeks of superdrol. thats surprising considering how low my initial test was. I figured for sure i'd have shrinkage and 0 libido
 
poopypants

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you know I have 0 shrinkage after 8 weeks of 1-t and 3 weeks of superdrol. thats surprising considering how low my initial test was. I figured for sure i'd have shrinkage and 0 libido
ya especially with 1-test. :think:

you taking any support supplements that may cause you to maintain your libido and possibly help to inhibit HTPA shutdown? any icariin?
 
celc5

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Poopy, concerning the serm's test boosting capabilities, thebigT and I are having some discussions on Supplementboards. I think they're having a referral contest over there so sign up with my username and check out bigT's thread :cheers: You too Easy and Pebble :D

I'm personally not sold that serms instigate hpta activity but theBigT seems to think otherwise and talks about evidence to support his point of view
 
EasyEJL

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2g of active resveratrol a day (4g raw). no icariin. nothing else that normally would affect hormone levels.
 
EasyEJL

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and yes, that is over $2 a day in resveratrol.
 
pebble

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Ha Ha, don't worry bro. It's a pretty common debate.

Yes, nolva is usually tapered from 40. Check out the mesomorphosis website which suggests 20mg throughout. Read through more posts on the forum I linked which also suggests a taper from 20mg unless you're over 220 pounds.

The link suggests an ideal torem dosage around 60mg, again, unless you are over about 220 pounds.

The reason that I suggest skipping the serm for halo is that it unbelievably unlikely for an sort of estrogenic repurcussion after the cycle. If I were you, I'd check out some sites where halo is more commonly logged such as discount anabolics. I believe AM to be a better source for epi logs and information right now.
I wasn't confused about whether to use a SERM or not because I have noticed is more of a personal choice with certain PHs. I have read from a lot of different sources and there are always people standing up for both sides. I have decided I will use a SERM.

I was more curios as to why you used/recommended a low dosage, but I figure it was/is because of the minimal chance of estrogenic repercussion.

I guess the only way for me to figure out what will work for me is to try it. If I need to make adjustments I will.

I passed around as much rep as I could to show some gratitude.
Once again thanks for all the feedback everyone.
 
poopypants

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I wasn't confused about whether to use a SERM or not because I have noticed is more of a personal choice with certain PHs. I have read from a lot of different sources and there are always people standing up for both sides. I have decided I will use a SERM.

I was more curios as to why you used/recommended a low dosage, but I figure it was/is because of the minimal chance of estrogenic repercussion.

I guess the only way for me to figure out what will work for me is to try it. If I need to make adjustments I will.

I passed around as much rep as I could to show some gratitude.
Once again thanks for all the feedback everyone.
no problem pebble, good luck with your cycle man and keep us informed as to how it turns out for you.
 
poopypants

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Poopy, concerning the serm's test boosting capabilities, thebigT and I are having some discussions on Supplementboards. I think they're having a referral contest over there so sign up with my username and check out bigT's thread :cheers: You too Easy and Pebble :D

I'm personally not sold that serms instigate hpta activity but theBigT seems to think otherwise and talks about evidence to support his point of view
ill head over there ASAP, but right now im searching for fodder to be used in my argument, I SWEAR i saw a chart showing torems efefct on HTPA before.

the only thing i ask one to consider from my own personal point of veiw is how did i possibley recover so well and fast using only toremifene if it has no HTPA boosting effects?

well i have been forgetting i tested the beta version of drive but was only taking 1/3 the recommended dose of what is now the production version and only took that for 17 days. It couldnt have possibly been that little amount of icariin could it? maybe there is some synergy with torem used with a natty like icariin.

any way ill bring this all over to the other board in a moment.
 
pebble

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So I have been doing some more research on Torem dosages and came across this. Thought it spark some intelligent conversation.

Building The Perfect BEAST
S E C O N D E D I T I O N
Author L Rea, R.S.

Fareston (toremifene citrate) is an estrogen receptor mixed agonist/antagonist.
In fact it is classified as a true Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator. This means that
the drug is selective in specific types of estrogen receptors it blocks and those it
activates. For anabolic steroids users this is a real plus due to the reality that many estrogen
receptor antagonists hinder glucose storage and GH release...and Fareston does not.
Sadly, it use also hinders LH/FSH production thus having no value in HPTA
regeneration. In studies upon males there was a marked reduction in HPTA activity
resulting in a decrease in androgen and sperm production. But on a plus side it has a
positive effect upon cholesterol levels favoring HDL (good cholesterol) production and
significant LDL (bad cholesterol) reduction.
An effective daily dosage for Fareston is 60mg/d and it best administered as
such even with its half-life of over 4 days. This is like Clomid in that the daily
accumulation acts as a buffer for physiological adaptation to some extent.
*l note this only due to a bottle I came across that had the right name but the wrong
chemical on the label.
FARESTON (toremifene citrate) Tablets for oral administration each contain 88.5
mg of toremifene citrate, which is equivalent to 60 mg toremifene. FARESTON is a
nonsteroidal antiestrogen. The chemical name of toremifene is: 2-(p-[(Z)-4-chloro-l ,2-
diphenyl-1 -butenyl]-phenoxy)-N,N-dimethylethylamine citrate (1:1).
I am still looking for other information about dosing and HPA recovery to contradict or support this.

EDIT - Found this too.

Fertil Steril. 2007 Apr 3; : 17412336

The beneficial effects of toremifene administration on the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis and sperm parameters in men with idiopathic oligozoospermia.

[My paper] Dimitrios Farmakiotis , Christos Farmakis , David Rousso , Anargyros Kourtis , Ilias Katsikis , Dimitrios Panidis

OBJECTIVE: To evaluate whether toremifene, a selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM), has a beneficiary effect on all three main sperm parameters. DESIGN: Prospective interventional clinical study. SETTING: University hospital. PATIENT(S): One-hundred subfertile men with idiopathic oligozospermia. INTERVENTION(S): Toremifene (60 mg daily) was administered to all men for 3 months. At baseline and at the end of each month, serum concentrations of follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, inhibin B, and sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) were measured. At baseline and at the end, semen analysis was performed and sperm concentration, spermatozoal motility and normal sperm forms were determined. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Gonadotropin, testosterone, inhibin-B levels, total sperm count, sperm morphology and motility. RESULT(S): Toremifene administration resulted in a significant increase in FSH, testosterone, SHBG, and inhibin B levels, as well as in sperm concentration, percentage motility and normal sperm forms. Twenty-two men's partners achieved pregnancy within 2 months of the end of treatment. At the end of the third month, serum FSH levels were significantly higher in the men whose partners did not achieve pregnancy, and total sperm count and normal sperm forms were significantly lower compared with the group of men whose partners achieved pregnancy. CONCLUSION(S): Toremifene administration for a period of 3 months in men with idiopathic oligozoospermia is associated with significant improvements of sperm count, motility, and morphology, mediated by increased gonadotropin secretion and possibly a direct beneficial effect of toremifene on the testes. The above findings are also indicative of a better testicular exocrine (improved sperm parameters) response to treatment in men whose partners achieved pregnancy compared with those who did not. Further randomized, placebo-controlled trials should be conducted to determine whether this particular selective estrogen receptor modulator can be useful as an initial approach in men with oligozoospermia.
Torem may not relate directly to HPA recovery but it does seem to have a positive affect on test levels by the looks of this study.

It looks like dosing at 60mg (similar to what Celc5 has outlined in the other forum) is the direction most clinical studies go about things.

EDIT #2

Here is some research that seems to point to the fact that torem does have a positve effect on HPA axis.

Hoffmann, R., Valencia, A. A gene network for navigating the literature. Nature Genetics 36, 664 (2004)

Although data concerning the outward transport of glucocorticoids from the brain [POU3F3 / Pou3f3 / Spna2] by P-glycoprotein [Abcb1a / Abcb1b / ABCB1] (Pgp [Abcb1a / Abcb1b / ABCB1]) are inconsistent, it has been hypothesized that antidepressants exert their clinical activity in parts by inhibiting Pgp [Abcb1b / Abcb1a / ABCB1], subsequently leading to enhanced brain [Spna2 / POU3F3 / Pou3f3] glucocorticoid levels and the normalization of the HPA axis function.
+

Volume-activated chloride channels in neuroblastoma cells are blocked by the antiestrogen toremifene.

Díaz M
Departamento de Biología Animal, Facultad de Biología, Universidad de La Laguna, Tenerife, Spain.

The presence of volume-activated chloride channels has been examined in neuroblastoma C1300 cells using the whole-cell configuration of the patch-clamp technique. Chloride channels could not be detected under isotonic conditions. However, hypotonic challenge induced slowly developed inward and outward anionic currents that exhibited outward rectification and inactivation at the most depolarizing potentials, features that were similar to the currents described in other cell preparations where volume-activated Cl- channels have been associated with the expression of P-glycoprotein [?]. This hypotonicity-activated Cl- currents could be reversibly blocked by extracellular exposure to toremifene, a novel synthetic antioestrogen. The fact that toremifene and its analog tamoxifen, have been shown to block P-glycoprotein [?]-associated chloride channels and to reverse P-glycoprotein [?] associated multidrug resistance in a number of cell lines suggest that P-glycoprotein [?] could be involved in the generation of hypotonic-induced chloride conductance in neuroblastoma cells.
If I am understanding this correctly the first study claims that blocking P-glycoprotein leads to normalizing HPA axis function. The seconds study then states that Toremifene block P-glycoprotein. So wouldn't that help to normalize HPA? Or am I way off on this?
 
poopypants

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wow thats a great find! so yes thats the line of logic i was pulling as i read the studies posted as well!

It looks as though It doesnt neccesarily directly increase HTPA production but it does look as though it does so indirectly!!!
 
pebble

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So with the info from the studies (+celc5) and the personal experiences of poopy I am going to change my Torem dosage to:

90mcg x3d
60mcg x4d
30mcg x7d
15mcg x7d

I will report back with how it goes when I cross that road.
 
celc5

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So with the info from the studies (+celc5) and the personal experiences of poopy I am going to change my Torem dosage to:

90mcg x3d
60mcg x4d
30mcg x7d
15mcg x7d

I will report back with how it goes when I cross that road.
I think the important part of this discussion is that you realize that opinions vary, and that studies and/or anecdotal evidence can be used to support either strategy. The plan you came up with looks fine to me :thumbsup:
 
EasyEJL

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seems reasonable. halo is so relatively low on suppression that the serm is optional anyhow.
 
poopypants

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So with the info from the studies (+celc5) and the personal experiences of poopy I am going to change my Torem dosage to:

90mcg x3d
60mcg x4d
30mcg x7d
15mcg x7d

I will report back with how it goes when I cross that road.
you need to realize... first if your taking toremifene citrate that 60mg of toremifene is actually 88mg of toremifene citrate, so 90mg dose is just about spot on with what Dr H suggests for a normal run dose... thats why I like starting with 120mg(really only ~80mg of pure torem) for a couple days to load it up fast instead of waiting for the inevitable cumulative effect that will occur with the super long half life.

If your taking plain old fareston or pure toremifene then your just fine and Id dose as you have outlined above.
 
pebble

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I just wanted to give an update. Its been two weeks now (at 50mg) and I upped the dose to 75mg today.

Some notes on the first two weeks.
Negative
  • None yet
Positives
  • Have more energy in the gym (kicked in about 8 days in), feel like i could go forever
  • Lifting more weight
  • My weight has not changed, but all measurements are up (except waist)
  • My blood pressure is down on avg 4points for systolic and 2points for diastolic
  • My resting heart rate is also down 4bpm.
I test both 5 days a week about 1hr after waking

I have not tested BF yet and will not do so until after the 30 days. If anyone wants some more detail let me know and I will post when I get a chance.

The one thing that does have me weirded out is that I am defiantly eating above maintenance (some of you thought too much) and I have stopped putting on weight. I cant complain too much seeing as the measurements are signs of positives results but its a little discouraging.
 
poopypants

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I just wanted to give an update. Its been two weeks now (at 50mg) and I upped the dose to 75mg today.

Some notes on the first two weeks.
Negative
  • None yet
Positives
  • Have more energy in the gym (kicked in about 8 days in), feel like i could go forever
  • Lifting more weight
  • My weight has not changed, but all measurements are up (except waist)
  • My blood pressure is down on avg 4points for systolic and 2points for diastolic
  • My resting heart rate is also down 4bpm.
I test both 5 days a week about 1hr after waking

I have not tested BF yet and will not do so until after the 30 days. If anyone wants some more detail let me know and I will post when I get a chance.

The one thing that does have me weirded out is that I am defiantly eating above maintenance (some of you thought too much) and I have stopped putting on weight. I cant complain too much seeing as the measurements are signs of positives results but its a little discouraging.


sounds like your worrying more about the compound and really you need to be focusing on your diet. Easy said it perfectly 300cals increase and then if no change another 300 next week. Its obviosly kicking in here, your getting strength and endurance gains from it so its doing its job, just give it some material to build that muscle with now.
 
celc5

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Halo is the ULTIMATE compound for recomp. I was able to absolutely pound carbs on Halo and body fat kept dropping the whole time (per caliper and skinfolds). I bet you could get away with increasing cals from this point forward.

Also, I bet you are gaining some lean mass even though the scale isn't moving because of that recomp effect. When you get bf measured, I bet you'll be pleasantly surprised!

You mentioned the gym endurance. I felt it around day 8 or 10 on halo, and thought it felt like supercharged creatine with adding reps onto the ends of sets :head: Strength should be kicking in for some sick power right now for you and aggression kicks in around day 20 for me.
 
pebble

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So even with the measurements (except waist) increasing I should still up the Kcals? I know I have been gaining lean mass because of the measurements.
Example: Biceps + 1/3 inch.
I am using Biceps because I work them out on Thursday and don't work out again until Saturday. It allots close to 48 hours of non workout time before measurements to ensure I don't have a pump.

I will increase the Kcals to 4200 by Monday. I was consuming just under 3900 the last two weeks.
 
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Figured I would add that I am noticing major strength increases as of today. With it came the first signs of negative side effects, back pumps. I felt them during my last set of RDL's which is when I also realized the strength increase. I normally RDL 175lbs for 10reps, but easily did 225 for 10reps and felt like I could have got 3-5 more off. If a little back pump adds 50lbs to a working set I will deal with that.
 
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I finally weighed myself this morning, first time since Saturday and I am up 9lbs to 182. I am guessing some of this is the extra food in the belly, but i doubt all 9lbs is. This stuff really does start to kick in on week three like everyone says.
 
celc5

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I finally weighed myself this morning, first time since Saturday and I am up 9lbs to 182. I am guessing some of this is the extra food in the belly, but i doubt all 9lbs is. This stuff really does start to kick in on week three like everyone says.
Nice bro. I really liked the hardness from halo. It kicked in right away and stayed up until my last dose.
 
pebble

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So I am in week four right now and ran the cycle 50,50,75,75, but am considering running another week or two(dependent on how the extra week goes) at 100. I still have close to no sides (only the back pumps on rare occasions). I was wondering what your thoughts are on this. I know some of the people on here run it for this long with a higher avg dose.

The gains are still coming, up another 1+ lbs and strength is going through the roof.

If I do add the couple weeks I will probably dose the serm a little higher than I last outlined. Opinions?
 
Brolic

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what body type are you?
why did u run it at 50.75.75 75 im thinking going running 50.75,75 depeding on sides...

did halo give u engey? i wanted to take my dosage before bed.
 
pebble

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what body type are you?
why did u run it at 50.75.75 75 im thinking going running 50.75,75 depeding on sides...

did halo give u engey? i wanted to take my dosage before bed.
I mentioned it in your other thread, but I would say I am an ecto. I don't gain wait easily, but when I do it tends to be fat. I find it very hard to add lean body mass. I have worked extremely hard for every ounce of muscle I have put on my body.

I ran it at 50, 50, 75, 75 because i wanted to see how I would react to it. If I did it all over again I would probably run 5weeks minimum (dependent on sides of course) at 75 to start and increase to 100-125.

I am hoping one of the more knowledgeable guys will offer some insight into their feelings on me continuing my cycle at 100mg for another week or two.

I didn't find it to give me the type of energy you are referring to. Instead I felt as if I was able to go forever in the gym, sometimes having to force myself to leave.
 
pebble

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Etoc Dont Gain Fat..

I think you are being too strict with the term Ectomorph. Any type of body can gain fat if you eat above your caloric expenditure and do not elicit enough of a stimulus to stimulate hypertrophy.

Ectos in general have a small frame and a hard time gaining muscle, thats me.
 
poopypants

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i wanted to take my dosage before bed.

why?????

I wouldnt do this for the sake of preventing extreme shutdown and not as good results. Youll be much beter served to take your dose spread out through the bed or all at once in the morning or preworkout.
 

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