Phera/Epi Log

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    Great log man! Looks like your still making some great progress. Other than the lethargy are you having any other sides ? How's your blood pressure, what level of suppression are you experiencing ? Hope all is well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schism View Post
    Great log man! Looks like your still making some great progress. Other than the lethargy are you having any other sides ? How's your blood pressure, what level of suppression are you experiencing ? Hope all is well.
    Schism,

    Since you asked, I'll give an update on the sides:

    1) Lethargy
    I think I’m over the lethargy, at least I haven’t had any since Tuesday (day 34). I had it for about 5 days. Sometimes the lethargy didn’t start till late in the day (around the time I take the Epi) . Irish Cannon had similar issues after he added Epi to his cycle. I wasn’t eating as much as I was so my guess is that the lethargy had something to do with the Epi and not enough carbs. So my solution is to keep the Epi around 30mg, and take most or all of it after my workout, and up my calories. If I increase any doses it will be the phera. The Phera was always my main focus, anyway, but I think it is very androgenic. I can’t take anything highly androgenic or ergogenic late in the day or I’ll be up all night. I figured Epi, being lowly androgenic and highly anabolic would make sense for my late day dose.

    2) Libido
    My libido went from hyper drive at the beginning to about normal. I don’t know if that means I’m suppressed or not.

    3) BP – I haven’t check my BP. Those electric gizmos don’t work for me. When my doctor takes it with the pump the upper value is 30-40 pts lower (inverse white coat syndrome), been that way for a decade. I’m on a script anyway.

    4) Aggression – Generally, very slightly up, a little less patient. The exception was last night when I knew I was going to miss my chest work out. It was extremely hard to keep control.

    5) Painful pumps – Had them for a couple days, then gone. I’ll be ending this in about 15 days so, at this point, I doubt they’ll become an issue.
    6) Appetite – was way up, but now is about normal.
    7) Bulk – Was Up, but lost some of it.
    8) Sleep – A little worse than usual but I'm an insomniac. I try to take the Phera early because it’s androgenic; another complement to Epi.
    8) Shedding – Not generally an issue for me, I’m pretty sparse up top anyway, wouldn’t be much of a loss.
    9) Acne – None

    Let me know if I left anything out.


    DB
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    No, I think you covered everything big guy. I like number 4, ain't nothin wrong with a little dedication bro. I fcukin hate missin a workout especially when I'm on a roll. But I'm glad you were able to control yourself.
    The world is a little safer tonight lol.
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    I got behind in my logging, here's a summary:
    Day 37 Chest
    Weight: 197.0 +11 from start.
    Dose 45mg phera/30mg Epi
    Food
    3573 92 413 292

    Didn’t get the 6th rep at 310. I did better with inclines and flies.


    Day 38 Legs
    Weight: 197.0 +11 from start.
    Dose 45mg phera/30mg Epi
    Food
    2582 61 185 326
    I got to 700x5 before I felt the muscle pull from last week, better, but I was hoping for a set of 740x8.

    Day 39 Off
    Weight: 197.0 +11 from start.

    Day 40 off.
    Weight: 198.5 +12.5 from start. Finally, my weight went up again.
    Food cals\fat\carbs\protein:
    2625 75 182 316
    Dose 15mg phera (that’s not a typo).
    I decided the party may be over soon. I’m starting to feel a little over-stressed, over-trained, and over-medicated so I think I’m going to end this while I’m still feeling good.


    Day 41 arms and shoulders.
    Weight: 198.5 +12.5 from start.
    Food cals\fat\carbs\protein:

    2625 75 182 316
    Dose 15mg phera

    I went up about 5 lbs or 1 rep on everything except close grips.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schism View Post
    The world is a little safer tonight lol.
    Yeah, really. I may have been legally insane, it's a good thing I wasn't stopped by a cop. But I'm much better now, thanks.
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    Cycle Summary:
    Weight -------Start ----Goal---- Actual
    Height --------5’5”--
    Body weight-186 ------195 ----198.5
    Bench --------260x7---315x8 - 310x5 – missed #6 by an inch.
    V squat ------ 685x6 --700x8 - 735x8.
    Dead lift ------505x2 --525x6 - 505x6.
    Arms ---------17 ------17 4/8 17 3/8
    Chest -------- 46.5 ---- 48--- 47
    Waist --------36 -------36 --- 37
    Legs --------25.5 --- 26.5 --- 26 ¾
    Neck --------16.5 --- none --- 17 ¾

    Shoulders and upper chest area definitely got leaner, too.

    Average calories:
    Total fat/carbs/protein
    3110.514 95.648649 260.7027 309.64865
    Average Doses;
    Week 1 15 Phera, 15 epi
    Week 2 22 Phera, 20 epi
    Week 3 30 Phera, 30 epi
    Week 4 37 phera, 30 epi
    Week 5 42 phera, 35 epi
    Days 36-39 45 phera 35 epi
    Days 40-41 15 phera

    As I said earlier, I’m starting to feel a little over-stressed, over-trained, and over-medicated so I think I’m going to end this while I’m still feeling good. I think I peaked somewhere between days 28 and 36. That’s where I got my max bench, dl, and probably squat if not for the muscle pull. I feel like I could take a few days off from lifting and start up again but maybe 6 weeks is enough.

    I picked phera and epi because they seemed like a good complement to each other. But despite the weeks, maybe months, of research I still don’t know if phera is a Class I or Class II steroid. I assumed class II but I’ve seen others claim class I. Does anyone really know?

    Goals achieved were mixed, but acceptable. If I were to change anything I would keep the epi under 40 and phera under 45, maybe max doses of phera 40, epi 30 and plan this as a 6 week cycle. I think most of the lethargy I felt was from the epi, but I also could have been over stim’ed by the phera. The combination kicked in pretty fast so there wasn’t a need to plan a long cycle waiting for phera to kick in as I’ve read in other posts. However, I don’t plan on doing phera again anytime soon because of the reported effects on the heart, and I have a bunch of original 1-AD to use up before it turns to mush.

    Between work, volunteer work, and Lent there’s too much else to focus on. I felt pretty obsessed on this cycle and I just can’t do both. Besides, a close friend of mine is a priest and a gym rat. I’d like to say he’s PIA but, in reality, he keeps me from getting too insane.

    So I’ll be spending the next 4 weeks on post cycle therapy, and try not to be too obsessed about the gym. I’m due for a doctor’s visit about 4/1 as a follow up to the blood test on 12/22. After that I’ll do something with my 1-AD. I’m not sure what, any ideas?

    The sides were posted in #42. Since phera is pretty androgenic, I suspect my BP went up but I’m on a script so maybe it’s not too bad, and I don’t know what my cholesterol is at the moment, but it’s generally manageable if I eat right. Other than that, my chief complaints might sound strange to most but for the first 4 weeks my drive was pretty much obsessive-compulsive, and libido was just a little too distracting.

    PCT:
    Tamoxifen 40/40/20/10 (actually liquid tamoxifen citrate)
    HDX2
    Retain 2
    Long jack (pretty much a staple when not “on”)
    I’ve got some turkesterone I bought on an impulse; I might throw that in, too.
    I’ll keep taking the super cissus. I normally take glucosamine/chondroitin and I’m not convinced one is better than the other, but I’m starting to believe that taking both while cycling may have its merit.

    I may post again if anything note worthy happens, at the end of PCT or in between. Thanks for the interest.

    DB
    Last edited by DBinMD; 02-05-2008 at 09:58 PM.
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    how do you dose your pp and epi... before and after workout or AM/PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrkn4bigrmusles View Post
    how do you dose your pp and epi... before and after workout or AM/PM
    Anything hormonal gives me sleep issues, especially if it is highly androgenic, which I think phera is, so I took phera early and epi late. Here’s some examples:

    Low dose:
    Dose was 15mg Phera at 5:00am and 10mg Epi at 3:30 pm.

    Medium-high
    Pheri 15mg at 6:00 am and 12:00pm (30 mg total).
    Epi.. 20mg at 5:00 pm (right before wo) and 10mg post wo (6:00-6:30pm) (30 mg total).

    High (maybe too high)
    Pheri 15mg at 6:00 am, 10:00am, and 2:00pm (45 mg total).
    Epi. 10mg at 5:00 pm (right before wo) and 20mg post wo (6:00-6:30pm) (30 mg total).

    Even without the sleep issues, I think it makes more sense to take the highly androgenic pre wo and anablic post wo if you can. I'm not 100% sure though as I suppose there may be some issues I'm not aware of.

    Anything else?


    DB
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    I also did a Epi/PP cycle and found that they complimented each other very well. Had very little sides too. Great log makes me want to pick a few bottles of PP, already got the epidrol. Well hope your PCT goes smooth and i hope your check up goes well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBinMD View Post
    Anything hormonal gives me sleep issues, especially if it is highly androgenic, which I think phera is, so I took phera early and epi late. Here’s some examples:

    Low dose:
    Dose was 15mg Phera at 5:00am and 10mg Epi at 3:30 pm.

    Medium-high
    Pheri 15mg at 6:00 am and 12:00pm (30 mg total).
    Epi.. 20mg at 5:00 pm (right before wo) and 10mg post wo (6:00-6:30pm) (30 mg total).

    High (maybe too high)
    Pheri 15mg at 6:00 am, 10:00am, and 2:00pm (45 mg total).
    Epi. 10mg at 5:00 pm (right before wo) and 20mg post wo (6:00-6:30pm) (30 mg total).

    Even without the sleep issues, I think it makes more sense to take the highly androgenic pre wo and anablic post wo if you can. I'm not 100% sure though as I suppose there may be some issues I'm not aware of.

    Anything else?


    DB
    Thanks DB.,.. thats helpful... i was gunna move my workouts to the evening time when i begin next week so the timing should work well
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    not sure if you mentioned it already or i missed it... do you take anything to combat the "pump" .. like taking taurine?
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    Quote Originally Posted by dadream View Post
    I also did a Epi/PP cycle and found that they complimented each other very well. Had very little sides too. Great log makes me want to pick a few bottles of PP, already got the epidrol. Well hope your post cycle therapy goes smooth and i hope your check up goes well.
    Yeah, I researched for about 2 months before I decided on what I wanted to do. Most of the info came from this sight. If you don't mind, how long was your cycle and what were your doses?

    Thanks

    DB
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrkn4bigrmusles View Post
    Thanks DB.,.. thats helpful... i was gunna move my workouts to the evening time when i begin next week so the timing should work well
    I work out in the evening mostly because that's when my metabolism is highest. I've tried morning wo's with a friend for about 3 years. It was worth having a spotter, but I just never got used to it. It seems a morning wo would be better because you'd take most of the anabolics after working out and any stims would be gone by night time, too.


    Quote Originally Posted by wrkn4bigrmusles View Post
    not sure if you mentioned it already or i missed it... do you take anything to combat the "pump" .. like taking taurine?
    I never got much in the way of back pumps or such. Just one leg wo, and not even on my dead lift days. I bought some taurine when the first event happened but never used it. That was one of the reasons I stacked the phera and epi. Phera is supposed to be wet and epi dry and I didn't want the back pumps, etc. My lower back was a little tight the last couple weeks but nothing much.

    Let me know how it goes, if you don't log it, pm me.

    DB
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    Sounds good DB... the last time i used PP i would get wicked leg pumps cause i was still doing cardio every other day.. but i did PP alone. so i'll see how it goes... i too bought some taurine just in case.

    i will log it on my own but may or may not post it. cause im kinda bad with keeping up with it..
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    I believe I ran the cycle for around 2 months.
    The first two weeks I took the Epidrol alone at 20mgs I believe. Then i started to take 10mgs Original AX PP only on workout days an hour prior to my workout. I continued this for two weeks. Thereafter I took both Epi (20mgs)and PP (20mgs) everyday until the PP ran out, so i was probably only taking the PP for a little under a month b/c i only had one bottle. And i finished the last two weeks or so with 30mgs Epi. Gained about 7-8lbs of lean mass, never experienced any bloat while on the PP probably due to the low doses, strength increases were excellent and experienced little if any "suppression" judging by testicular atrophy not by blood tests. Towards the end, though my joints were a little dry and worn only negative side i can comment on.
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    PCT and Post PCT


    PCT and Start of Post PCT

    Original Start Point and Goals
    Goals by the end of post cycle therapy.
    ---------------Start ----Goal ---- Start of PCT 2/5 ----- Post PCT (3/13) -- change
    Height --------5’5”------------------------------------------5'5" ----------- 0
    Body weight---186 ------195 ---- 198 --------------------188.0 --------------+2
    Waist -------- 36 -------36 ------37.0 --------------------35.5 -------------- -.5
    Bench* -------260x7---310x8 --- 310x5 (almost 6)--------310x4.5 -------- +1.5 reps
    V squat*------ 685x6 --700x8 ----740x8 ------------------685x8 --------- +2 reps
    Dead lift ----- 505x2 --525x6 --- 505x3 -----------------505x3 ------------+1 rep

    *315x3 is normal for me. My bench dropped the week before Christmas so my starting weight was below normal. Today was leg day, but I only got 4 hrs. sleep last night, so it’s possible I would have done better.

    The 1st 3 weeks of PCT sucked. I was real mopey and caught a cold. All of my lifts were down. Cardio sucked, I couldn’t get my heart rate up to the cardio zone. I figured I might be suppressing too much estrogen so I dropped the HDX2. I picked it back up again at 2 caps/day the first week after the SERM ended and 1 cap/day the next week. I’ve never done a SERM before so I don’t know what to compare it to.

    Last week, near the end of week 4 of the SERM, my lifts and body weight started coming back. Today I’m about 0 to 1.5 reps from my peak.

    Net body weight gain so far is only 2 lbs, but since I lost .5 inch on my waist during this time, I’d say it’s closer to an 3-5 lb gain in lean mass. Cardio is back into full swing, too. . Hopefully, I’ll get a little more back next week and I’ll be pretty close to where I left off at the end of the cycle in terms of strength. I didn’t have much in gain in final size.

    The only odd thing is BP went up after I was done the SERM. I’m not sure why, could be because I’m pretty sure I’ll be losing my job soon. I’m scheduled to see my family doc on the 24th, anyway.

    Post cycle: These are the PC specific supps
    liquid tamoxifen citrate 40/40/20/20
    Retain2 caps 3/3/2/1
    Primaforce Cissus
    Cissus.
    HDX2 4/3/0/0/2/1
    NAC

    Other:
    acetyl-carnitine
    multivitamin
    R-ala
    arginine
    bcaa
    gaba
    glucosamine
    zinc/mag
    omega -3
    vitamin c
    long jack


    Current Sups:

    New: I started these on Saturday (3/8 four days ago)
    cycle support, half dose (it’s a lot cheaper this way) – I want to see if it will help with the BP and my cholesterol can run a little high. I’ll give it until the 24th to see some progress.
    Plcar - .8g (as much as I can fit into one 000 cap)
    Beta Alanine – 3.6g (1 tsp)

    Day:
    Alcar - .8g (as much as I can fit into one 000 cap)
    multivitamin
    R-ala – average of .4gms
    bcaa – 20-40 gms for during and post wo. The higher number is for days when I know I won’t be able to eat right away. Even buying bulk, I’m not sure the expense is worth it. I may cut back or eliminate it.
    Glucosamine/Chondroitin 2/1.5 gms
    Omega-3 4-6gms
    Vitamin c .5gms
    Whey – 100 gms
    Long Jack – 1–1.5 gms
    Creatine 5 gms on wo days(6)

    Night –
    Gaba 6-12 gms
    Zinc/Mag
    Melatonin 1.5gms
    Arginine Pyruvate(sp?) 3gms on lifting days (4).
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    Alright, final post, unless something momentus happens.

    It's 45 days since then end of my cycle and 17 days since last dose of tamox. Not much change from last post except I’m up another 1.5lbs and still lost a little more around the middle. Not sure why, but I’m not complaining.

    Final (compared to day 1)
    Weight 189.5 +3.5lbs
    Waist 35, -1 inch

    For me, waist size is about 5lb/inch. At this point I doubt if I’m holding any extra water weight. So I think I can reasonably claim about 8-9lbs of stable added muscle. I didn’t reach all of my strength goals, but I’m think I’m better off at a leaner 189lb than the original goal of 196. If I do this again I definitely won’t go past day 35.

    I see my family doc on Monday for a followup from Dec, maybe I can talk him in to a blood test. Since it's Easter, I'm just gonna rest up and probably not hit the gym until Monday (well maybe if the weather is ****ty tomorrow).

    Thanks all for the support.

    DB
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