Pp/m-trn

[AM07]

Hey, how does this stack look for someone that is 5'10, 192 pounds at around 15% BF? This is mainly going to be a lean bulking cycle. Diet is in check. This will be his second cycle. Products are AX PP and GL M-TRN.

Dosing scheme is like this:
Week 1: PP 10mg/TRN 2mg
Week 2: PP 20mg/TRN 2 or 4mg
Week 3: PP 20 (more likely) or 30mg/TRN 4mg
Week 4: PP 30mg/TRN 4mg

PCT:
Week 1: 40mg Nolva
Week 2: 30mg Nolva
Week 3: 20mg Nolva
Week 4: 10 or 20mg Nolva

How does this look? Support supps include Cycle Support, fish oil and Cissus. Taurine can be purchased later in case back pumps become a problem, but plenty of water will be consumer, anywhere from 1.5-2 gallons a day. Should creatine be used during cycle, or just during PCT? Also, should Zol be thrown into the mix, or should it be saved for a later cycle?

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

 

[AM07]

Decided against the Zol. Still wondering if creatine should be used during the cycle, or only after?

Thanks.

 

[pistonpump]

wait til after cycle for the creatine to help you keep strength up. Cycle looks good but watch out for any gyno like symptoms, i got them when the trn was introduced. I only did the trn for the last 10 days or so, strength gains were gorgeous and i had some intense workouts. Watch BP too.

I would only do maybe 3-4 days of 10mg then bump to 20mg.

What was your first cycle?

 

[PumpingIron]

Lof of people reported gyno from TRN and PP...so be careful.

I'd save the Creatine for PCT to help keep some strength.

 

[JZ7757]

Frankly, if this is supposed to be a lean bulker, I would run the ZOL throughout. If this is your first time with ZOL, start at 150 and work up, you may need 2-3 90ct bottles.

Running ZOL really shapped my up once i found a good dosage (250+) and kept me lean when PP was putting on size. Frankly, i would never run PP again without ZOL. I hated looking like a blowfish, but loved the gains/no sides.

I would also do this as a 6wk run like I just recently did, but only running PP for 4wks, of course. Weeks 2-5 were by far my best, bigger and the zol worked really well, even at a lower dose that what i should have had taken at.

I suppose you could add the TRN at week three if you really wanted to, but i really didnt see THAT much from it below 6mgs. I only noticed mild strengh gains and decent libido.

I wouldnt run TRN for 6wks either, cause if you really shut down, that will be very hard to come back from.

And as others said, save the CEE for PCT. I have kept 80% of my strength, even though i feel "human" again in my workouts. I cant wait to add the JW next week.

Everything else looks fine, just LOG it. I would be curious to your experience.

Cycle experience? Is this your first?

 

[JZ7757]

one other thing, i would pre-load cissus AT LEAST a week before, maybe two. When i started the cycle, I experienced joint/forearm pain till mid week 2 when it kicked in. This is quite typical of cissus kick in time. Primaforce sells 120cap bottles.

 

[AM07]

wait til after cycle for the creatine to help you keep strength up. Cycle looks good but watch out for any gyno like symptoms, i got them when the trn was introduced. I only did the trn for the last 10 days or so, strength gains were gorgeous and i had some intense workouts. Watch BP too.

I would only do maybe 3-4 days of 10mg then bump to 20mg.

What was your first cycle?

Hey, I'll wait to use the creatine for PCT. What kind of gyno-like symptoms did you get from TRN, lumps?

First cycle was 300mg 1-AD and 600mg 4AD. After PCT (consisted of Nolva and 6-OXO), I started to form a small limp behind my left nipple. Over time, it got smaller, and today, it's barely there, but when I push against it, I can still slightly feel it. Gained about 25 pounds on that cycle (LBM, fat, and water), but too much of it was fat, probably about 5 pounds. It wasn't due to eating unhealthy because diet was VERY healthy, but too much food. Strength gains were AMAZING. I don't know if anything will beat that stack. But it's the only one I've done, so I've yet to try many things.

If gyno does start to flare up, do you recommend just 20mg Nolva each day, or something else? Nolva and possibly Retain are the only two things I'm using during PCT. I think the 6-OXO may have caused the gyno flare-up, not sure though.

Thanks.

 

[AM07]

JZ, I don't have enough Zol, plus I think I would like to save it for a later cycle.

Did the bloat from the PP go away during PCT?

 

[pistonpump]

yeah that was the first time i noticed lumps and they came during the time i added the trn. Some people are different but maybe you should do PP solo and TRN/zol cycle later. just an idea.

btw...people said pp was real wet but i thought it wasnt at all, hardly retained any water. Its helps that you have the AX original pp as well.

 

[JZ7757]

JZ, I don't have enough Zol, plus I think I would like to save it for a later cycle.

Did the bloat from the PP go away during post cycle therapy?

You can always buy more. Its for like 30 bucks for 90 caps right now (not gl) .

The bloat did go away at pct, as it always has. I was just too ignorant to it to try a cutter like the zol to combat the bloat. I have done 3 or 4 pp cycles and will not do another again without ZOL.

I didnt hold THAT much water in my pp runs, but def did more than i am used to. Some people blow up like a fish, others get a little puffy and pink.

Frankly, i really enjoyed looking bigger AND good while on, not just in PCT. It looks allot more natural too, not just puffy/soft/swollen. The TRN alone may have the very same slimming effect, too.

Sounds like your prone to gyno. Given your last experience, i would stay away from TRN or the PP/TRN combo. Last thing you want to do is start pct prematurely.

Your call man. I am lucky enough to not be prone to it at all.

I would run it liek either of these:

Week 1: PP 10mg/TRN 2mg
Week 2: PP 20mg/TRN 4mg
Week 3: PP 20/TRN 6mg
Week 4: PP 30mg/TRN 6mg

or

Week 1: PP 10mg/TRN 2mg
Week 2: PP 20mg/TRN 4mg
Week 3: PP 20/TRN 4mg
Week 4: PP 30mg/TRN 6mg
Week 5: TRN 6mg (could add zol)
Week 6: TRN 6mg (could add zol)

....or you can always do a standalone PP then TRN/ZOL cutter afterward like PP suggested (my and most user's approach).

This would probably be your safest approach, considering this is your first exp with these compounds.

 

[AM07]

Hey piston and JZ, thanks for the advice! I still have a couple weeks to decide if I want to use the TRN or not. I may do a six-weeker like you suggested JZ and see how it goes, but leave the TRN out until week 3 and 4 (if I start symptoms of gyno, it will be stopped immediately). It just sucks not being able to lift at all. I planned this summer after I graduated to be kick ass in terms of growth and leaning out, but I haven't been able to lift more than half the summer due to unexpected injuries. I need to do squats again!

JZ, who else makes a good clone of Zol?

 

[AM07]

JZ, are both PP and TRN progestins? I think TRN is, but I don't know about PP. If it is, I would assume it's safe to say that if I stack two progestins together, the chances of gyno are pretty high for myself? In that case, I would stack Zol with PP, assuming Zol isn't a progestin which I don't think it is.

And if so, then I have a couple bottles of TRN I can do without, if any of you know what I mean

 

[thesinner]

I'm all about my lovely lady lumps!

On a more serious note, I've stacked the two with success and no flaring. It's always a good idea to have something like dostinex on hand in case something goes wrong, but I personally feel that this is a killer bulking stack.

 

[JZ7757]

pp is a 17a methyl androgenic compound, zol is a winztrol with a thp ether on 17 carbon (non methyl) and TRN is the progestin.

PP and TRN are good to stack, particularly for a lean bulk, but peoples experiences have been different of course. Mainly on TRN, particuarly with libdo, shutdown and anger trigger enhancer as i call it. lol. Great leaner/vascular, fat loss and strength compound. PP is a great, very light side, strength/"wet" mass compound.

TRN you can actually still get online now.

Juggernaut nutrition makes a decent clone, but it hasnt been that good latley. There is a thread floating around about it, a crappy, discoloring filler, or something, but overall i have heard that the clone is good otherwise.

If your not lifting now, then i wouldnt advise diving right into these with new lifting. I would heal completely, lift for a month or so, get the plan down, then go for it.

personally, if your going to do a "lean bulker" with around 3k-3.3k cals max then do a 6wk pp/zol. you can always do a trn/zol cutter later or something with the three later.

 

[AM07]

Hey, thanks for the advice. Are there any other good Zol clones, or is Winztrol the only one?

The only reason I would prefer to use TRN is because I have a couple bottles of it already, so I don't really want to spend the money on Zol. But I don't mind if it's better.

I rolled my left ankle today while playing basketball (thank GOD it's not sprained), but it's not really a big deal because I wasn't going to start lifting until the end of this week anyways.

Which do you think is a better lean mass and strength compound, TRN or Zol? I am most likely not going to go above 4mg TRN if I end up using it since I've read the sides at 6mg are pretty bad. Plus, it's only my second cycle, so I want to keep the doses pretty conservative. But if I stop seeing results, I may up the dosage or just increase cals (I think calories are the reason people stop seeing results, you must increase them exponentially as you grow during a cycle).

In case gyno flares up with the use of PP/TRN, would Nolva at 20mg per day be sufficient enough to reduce the gyno, or does one need to purchase dostinex?

Thanks for the help.

 

[AM07]

By the way, how do you rep someone? I have no clue how I got any reps, I mainly just read on this forum

 

[thesinner]

By the way, how do you rep someone? I have no clue how I got any reps, I mainly just read on this forum

See attachement

 

[nycste]

By the way, how do you rep someone? I have no clue how I got any reps, I mainly just read on this forum

its the tiny scale inbtw your circle thing and yield sign thing on bottom of avitar left

hover ur mouse there

 

[AM07]

When is the best time to dose these products? I would assume at week 1 when I'm only taking one pill of each, about an hour before my workout would be sufficient?

 

[Link24]

Hey man, Have you worked everything out with your cycle? If so when do you plan on starting?

 

[PumpingIron]

dosage timing isn't that important, when taking more then 1 pills space them out through the day. Also, taking something like PP with omegas is a good idea.

 

[AM07]

Hey man, Have you worked everything out with your cycle? If so when do you plan on starting?

Hey man, I am using Phera-Max instead of Phera-Plex due to not receiving AX PP. I am also using Mega-TRN in conjunction with the Phera. Both are by Generic Labz.

I am dosing like this:
Week 1 - 15mg Phera, 2mg TRN
Week 2 - 30mg Phera, 2 or 4mg TRN
Week 3 - 30mg Phera, 4mg TRN
Week 4 - 30mg Phera, 4 or 6mg TRN

I am still considering using Zol, but I only have one bottle and don't really want to spend the money on another bottle because I have so much TRN (three more bottles). For my next stack, I will use the Zol. I'm planning a Mega-TRN/Zol cutter after this.

AI Cycle Support is being used, as well as fish oil and NOW Adam. PCT will include Nolva.

During my first workout today, I was more sweaty than usual. I don't know if it's because it was a little hot in my gym, or the pills I took a couple hours before lifting were working.

How long does it take to see the effects of Phera and TRN? Is it quick, or does it take time like Halodrol?

 

[pistonpump]

PP took around the end of week 2 to really bite then week 3 was the best by far, week 4 it begins to level off. TRN i found was pretty quick like a couple days. Definately dose the TRN preworkout.

 

[JZ7757]

^^w0rd! TRN preworkout was the **** for strength, plus it make sense being very andro. Once you get up to 4mgs, split the dosage pre/post.

Keep an eye on your BP during this, esp if you keep sweating allot. Mine was a little on the high side, then really on the high side at wk 4-5.

 

[PumpingIron]

What benifits would you get from dosing it preworkout other than a placebo effect?

 

[JZ7757]

It was def more than the mental effect, mainly strength and explosivness, esp with the last set lifts. It was quite noticable in the mix of my last cycle.

 

[PumpingIron]

Theres no evidence in that...

...it shouldn't matter when you take it, as long as you keep blood levels constant.

 

[pistonpump]

could have a short half life and being non methyl the way the body converts it in the digestive track could be different. I noticed the same as JZ7....maybe placebo but i did get a big boost from it for a few days then i just felt like crap and was getting sides so i cut it out.

 

[PumpingIron]

absorbtion would be the same process. the methyl attached only slows it down.

 

[PumpingIron]

I shouldn't say slows down, cuz thats not correct, I mean helps it pass through the liver more effectively.

 

[JZ7757]

obviously, proof is when I take something and it has noticable effects within 1-3 hrs after, esp. in the gym. I have only taken it pre or pre & post, as with almost all of my stuff, so i cant comment on the post only effects the next day.

so, what are you getting at exactly PI? Have you had the same effects reguardless of dosage timing with a progestin or just in general andro compounds?

I was under the impression that progestins have a very short half life.

 

[PumpingIron]

well whats the half life of TRN?

 

[JZ7757]

ive always read its 6-8hrs, some say 10-12. ill double check....

 

[JZ7757]

GL confirmed it is indeed 10hrs.

 

[PumpingIron]

then tell me the difference in splitting up dosages to keep the levels in the blood constant vs. taking it preworkout?

 

[JZ7757]

There really shouldnt be one i suppose....as i said I have only taken it directly pre/post wo, so i cant intelligently comment on the other.

I mainly suggested the pre wo from TRN being an andro compound, mixed with pp for max strength during the work and of course my good pre wo experience with it.

I will however be running this soon again, so i will comment back once i get my Epi/PP/Trn/zol cycle rolling in a month, taking the TRN evenly but not pre wo.

 

[nycste]

obviously, proof is when I take something and it has noticable effects within 1-3 hrs after, esp. in the gym. I have only taken it pre or pre & post, as with almost all of my stuff, so i cant comment on the post only effects the next day.

so, what are you getting at exactly PI? Have you had the same effects reguardless of dosage timing with a progestin or just in general andro compounds?

I was under the impression that progestins have a very short half life.

from a statement like this do i have issues if i just did a pheraplex AX and epistane cycle and never felt ON. .

i am one of the peeps where nothing bothers them and here i findout im alergic to something in phera or epistaneor support supps had red dots on my thighs and swelling feeling on neck and stuff.

anyways back to the i never felt ON feeling. something wrong with me or is that normal maybe and im just one of those non responders

 

[JZ7757]

^I suppose you could be a non responder, you wouldnt be the first. You may want to give Ergo MAX/phera max a try next.

How did the lifts go? I think you were doing a light weight/high routine right? Also pp gets the appetite up, so did that change at all?

On pp for me, i def felt "ON" in the gym and esp the next morning at about a week in. The only thing i have felt a tad stronger was the TRN. I am somewhat a non responder to to superdrol but respond great to PP/highly andro compounds.

EDIT: I havent taken Epi yet, so i cant comment. I know you def should have seen some strength gains from them both, for sure.

 

[nycste]

^I suppose you could be a non responder, you wouldnt be the first. You may want to give Ergo MAX/phera max a try next.

How did the lifts go? I think you were doing a light weight/high routine right? Also pp gets the appetite up, so did that change at all?

On pp for me, i def felt "ON" in the gym and esp the next morning at about a week in. The only thing i have felt a tad stronger was the TRN. I am somewhat a non responder to to superdrol but respond great to PP/highly andro compounds.

well i started a new routine and cycle when i was still recovering from being sick 2months before that. was taking a long time getting my strength back.

my stretch has increased a great deal since like i was on strongest roids ever but thats not that case since im still working back to my previous best lifts. in some areas im stronger then ever but still weak on pressing and squatting my deads have gone up.

i really dont know what this ON feeling is. i turn into a machine the second i get into the gym. ive always been sporty and the second i start doing something my body like "over the top" turns the cap and i become a machine haha.

my diet didnt really change while on PP i gained 10lbs in first 2 weeks and weight didnt move much after that once i stopped PP i couldnt get my weight back to the highs i was at while on PP during the day. no biggie.

i ran this cycle to help heal any injuries i might have and help me get my strength back. i dont care to much about benching 405 lbs or something but for someone my size i should be getting close to 315 for many reps yet ive never gone above 275x2 . i just did 225x6 3/4 second negatives on flat bench soo thats really cool and made me happy and it felt light considering i hadnt touched 225 in months.

 

[AM07]

Day 6 is today. At 15mg Phera and 2mg TRN. I will bump it up either Monday or Tuesday, assuming I don't have the end the cycle early. Tweaked my back on Thursday, thought I'd be okay to lift today, but still feel slightly off, so I'm going to wait until tomorrow.

By the way, is it better to do deadlifts in the 1-4 rep range? I've heard from someone that it's better than doing 8-12 rep sets because form tends to really break down on deads when doing higher reps.

 

[pistonpump]

from a statement like this do i have issues if i just did a pheraplex AX and epistane cycle and never felt ON. .

i am one of the peeps where nothing bothers them and here i findout im alergic to something in phera or epistaneor support supps had red dots on my thighs and swelling feeling on neck and stuff.

anyways back to the i never felt ON feeling. something wrong with me or is that normal maybe and im just one of those non responders

dude with the results you got you dont need to feel on, it worked. I cant say Epi gives much of an on feeling but on PP i was way more focused in the gym. THe on feeling could be somewhat placebo as well. Its more of an all day pump and strength felt in the muscles with better performance in the gym kinda thing. I have no doubt it worked for you.

 

[nycste]

dude with the results you got you dont need to feel on, it worked. I cant say Epi gives much of an on feeling but on PP i was way more focused in the gym. THe on feeling could be somewhat placebo as well. Its more of an all day pump and strength felt in the muscles with better performance in the gym kinda thing. I have no doubt it worked for you.

thanks. stilll holding 5-7lbs. dont know if im leaner loking forward to measurements in like 10days when pct ends.

strength has increased more then like anyone elses cycles ever because i did mine to help me bounch back from beng sick and losing all my strength gains in 2weeks which took months to get back.

 

[AM07]

Day 11. Not feeling any strength increase at all, look no different in the mirror. Three days ago, started dosing at 30mg Phera, 4mg TRN. It took until end of week 2 for me to start feeling the effects from 1-AD and 4AD, so I hope this is the same way.

I'm not lifting today, so I won't know how my strength is until tomorrow. If nothing good comes out of this by Day 17, I'm about to say **** it, go into PCT, and then starting in November, running a 1-AD/4AD stack. Because as of now, I'm not feeling jack **** from these two compounds.

 

[JZ7757]

^^ how much have you been lifting per week? where are you cals at? Post your dosing protocol.

Day 11 you def should be ramping up on both compounds, esp the LMG.

I felt TRN at 4mgs at day 6, subsequently from 4 days of 2mgs. TRN was very pronounced at workouts, for sure. Pumps and BIG strength.

 

[AM07]

I've been lifting 4-5 times per week. I've seen some weight gain actually. I can definitely tell my legs have gotten bigger (not too hard, this is where I seem to gain the easiest, hard to gain in other places), and the region around my traps and shoulders has gotten wider. Other than that, strength has gone up slightly, but not much. Did back and bis today, so I'll do chest/tris tomorrow, and then starting Monday, back to the normal upper/lower routine.

 

[AM07]

I decided that while I'm on this stack, my workout is going to be back/bis, chest/shoulders/tris, and lower (deads and/or squats).

I took the last two days off from lifting since my back felt kind of off. I did cardio yesterday. Going back in today to do lower body. I'll probably do 4 sets of squats, 4 sets of deads, and some exercises to strengthen my hips.

Still dosing at 30mg Phera and 4mg TRN. Do you think at Day 22 or 23, I should bump it up to 45mg Phera, or keep it at 30mg? Maybe bump the TRN up instead? Or both? Today is Day 16.

I am definitely going to cut after PCT of this cycle. I used to be pretty lean last Summer, but since I did a PH stack this past winter and kind of stopped doing cardio and didn't work out for 3 months or so due to various injuries, etc. I gained quite a bit of fat. I eat very healthy, but tend to eat a lot.

 

[AM07]

Also, are nipples getting hard more than usual a sign of impending gyno? The past couple days, my nipples have been getting hard more often (like how they are on a really cold day), but I didn't feel any lumps behind my nipples except for the very small lump I have behind my left nipple due to a little bit of gyno from a previous cycle.

 

[PumpingIron]

I've heard the PP/TRN combo is notorious for this...but it doesn't sound like you should be worried yet...if you squeeze them hard does a milky substance come out? or if the previous gynos starts to grow/get more sensitive...thats when you should start to get worried.

I seem to get harder nipples myself when I am on, as well...no worries brotha.

 

[AM07]

Do you guys think I should up the dose? Today is Day 19. I would do it either tomorrow or Sunday.

 

[PumpingIron]

what dose are/were you runnign it at?