[AM07]

Hey, how does this stack look for someone that is 5'10, 192 pounds at around 15% BF? This is mainly going to be a lean bulking cycle. Diet is in check. This will be his second cycle. Products are AX PP and GL M-TRN.

Dosing scheme is like this:
Week 1: PP 10mg/TRN 2mg
Week 2: PP 20mg/TRN 2 or 4mg
Week 3: PP 20 (more likely) or 30mg/TRN 4mg
Week 4: PP 30mg/TRN 4mg

PCT:
Week 1: 40mg Nolva
Week 2: 30mg Nolva
Week 3: 20mg Nolva
Week 4: 10 or 20mg Nolva

How does this look? Support supps include Cycle Support, fish oil and Cissus. Taurine can be purchased later in case back pumps become a problem, but plenty of water will be consumer, anywhere from 1.5-2 gallons a day. Should creatine be used during cycle, or just during PCT? Also, should Zol be thrown into the mix, or should it be saved for a later cycle?

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

[AM07]

Decided against the Zol. Still wondering if creatine should be used during the cycle, or only after?

Thanks.

[pistonpump]

wait til after cycle for the creatine to help you keep strength up. Cycle looks good but watch out for any gyno like symptoms, i got them when the trn was introduced. I only did the trn for the last 10 days or so, strength gains were gorgeous and i had some intense workouts. Watch BP too.

I would only do maybe 3-4 days of 10mg then bump to 20mg.

What was your first cycle?

[PumpingIron]

Lof of people reported gyno from TRN and PP...so be careful.

I'd save the Creatine for PCT to help keep some strength.

[JZ7757]

Frankly, if this is supposed to be a lean bulker, I would run the ZOL throughout. If this is your first time with ZOL, start at 150 and work up, you may need 2-3 90ct bottles.

Running ZOL really shapped my up once i found a good dosage (250+) and kept me lean when PP was putting on size. Frankly, i would never run PP again without ZOL. I hated looking like a blowfish, but loved the gains/no sides.

I would also do this as a 6wk run like I just recently did, but only running PP for 4wks, of course. Weeks 2-5 were by far my best, bigger and the zol worked really well, even at a lower dose that what i should have had taken at.

I suppose you could add the TRN at week three if you really wanted to, but i really didnt see THAT much from it below 6mgs. I only noticed mild strengh gains and decent libido.

I wouldnt run TRN for 6wks either, cause if you really shut down, that will be very hard to come back from.

And as others said, save the CEE for PCT. I have kept 80% of my strength, even though i feel "human" again in my workouts. I cant wait to add the JW next week.

Everything else looks fine, just LOG it. I would be curious to your experience.

Cycle experience? Is this your first?

[JZ7757]

one other thing, i would pre-load cissus AT LEAST a week before, maybe two. When i started the cycle, I experienced joint/forearm pain till mid week 2 when it kicked in. This is quite typical of cissus kick in time. Primaforce sells 120cap bottles.

[AM07]

Originally Posted by pistonpump

wait til after cycle for the creatine to help you keep strength up. Cycle looks good but watch out for any gyno like symptoms, i got them when the trn was introduced. I only did the trn for the last 10 days or so, strength gains were gorgeous and i had some intense workouts. Watch BP too.

I would only do maybe 3-4 days of 10mg then bump to 20mg.

What was your first cycle?

Hey, I'll wait to use the creatine for PCT. What kind of gyno-like symptoms did you get from TRN, lumps?

First cycle was 300mg 1-AD and 600mg 4AD. After PCT (consisted of Nolva and 6-OXO), I started to form a small limp behind my left nipple. Over time, it got smaller, and today, it's barely there, but when I push against it, I can still slightly feel it. Gained about 25 pounds on that cycle (LBM, fat, and water), but too much of it was fat, probably about 5 pounds. It wasn't due to eating unhealthy because diet was VERY healthy, but too much food. Strength gains were AMAZING. I don't know if anything will beat that stack. But it's the only one I've done, so I've yet to try many things.

If gyno does start to flare up, do you recommend just 20mg Nolva each day, or something else? Nolva and possibly Retain are the only two things I'm using during PCT. I think the 6-OXO may have caused the gyno flare-up, not sure though.

Thanks.

[AM07]

JZ, I don't have enough Zol, plus I think I would like to save it for a later cycle.

Did the bloat from the PP go away during PCT?

[pistonpump]

yeah that was the first time i noticed lumps and they came during the time i added the trn. Some people are different but maybe you should do PP solo and TRN/zol cycle later. just an idea.

btw...people said pp was real wet but i thought it wasnt at all, hardly retained any water. Its helps that you have the AX original pp as well.

[JZ7757]

Originally Posted by AM07

JZ, I don't have enough Zol, plus I think I would like to save it for a later cycle.

Did the bloat from the PP go away during post cycle therapy?

You can always buy more. Its for like 30 bucks for 90 caps right now (not gl) .

The bloat did go away at pct, as it always has. I was just too ignorant to it to try a cutter like the zol to combat the bloat. I have done 3 or 4 pp cycles and will not do another again without ZOL.

I didnt hold THAT much water in my pp runs, but def did more than i am used to. Some people blow up like a fish, others get a little puffy and pink.

Frankly, i really enjoyed looking bigger AND good while on, not just in PCT. It looks allot more natural too, not just puffy/soft/swollen. The TRN alone may have the very same slimming effect, too.

Sounds like your prone to gyno. Given your last experience, i would stay away from TRN or the PP/TRN combo. Last thing you want to do is start pct prematurely.

Your call man. I am lucky enough to not be prone to it at all.

I would run it liek either of these:

Week 1: PP 10mg/TRN 2mg
Week 2: PP 20mg/TRN 4mg
Week 3: PP 20/TRN 6mg
Week 4: PP 30mg/TRN 6mg

or

Week 1: PP 10mg/TRN 2mg
Week 2: PP 20mg/TRN 4mg
Week 3: PP 20/TRN 4mg
Week 4: PP 30mg/TRN 6mg
Week 5: TRN 6mg (could add zol)
Week 6: TRN 6mg (could add zol)

....or you can always do a standalone PP then TRN/ZOL cutter afterward like PP suggested (my and most user's approach).

This would probably be your safest approach, considering this is your first exp with these compounds.

[AM07]

Hey piston and JZ, thanks for the advice! I still have a couple weeks to decide if I want to use the TRN or not. I may do a six-weeker like you suggested JZ and see how it goes, but leave the TRN out until week 3 and 4 (if I start symptoms of gyno, it will be stopped immediately). It just sucks not being able to lift at all. I planned this summer after I graduated to be kick ass in terms of growth and leaning out, but I haven't been able to lift more than half the summer due to unexpected injuries. I need to do squats again!

JZ, who else makes a good clone of Zol?

[AM07]

JZ, are both PP and TRN progestins? I think TRN is, but I don't know about PP. If it is, I would assume it's safe to say that if I stack two progestins together, the chances of gyno are pretty high for myself? In that case, I would stack Zol with PP, assuming Zol isn't a progestin which I don't think it is.

And if so, then I have a couple bottles of TRN I can do without, if any of you know what I mean

[thesinner]

I'm all about my lovely lady lumps!

On a more serious note, I've stacked the two with success and no flaring. It's always a good idea to have something like dostinex on hand in case something goes wrong, but I personally feel that this is a killer bulking stack.

[JZ7757]

pp is a 17a methyl androgenic compound, zol is a winztrol with a thp ether on 17 carbon (non methyl) and TRN is the progestin.

PP and TRN are good to stack, particularly for a lean bulk, but peoples experiences have been different of course. Mainly on TRN, particuarly with libdo, shutdown and anger trigger enhancer as i call it. lol. Great leaner/vascular, fat loss and strength compound. PP is a great, very light side, strength/"wet" mass compound.

TRN you can actually still get online now.

Juggernaut nutrition makes a decent clone, but it hasnt been that good latley. There is a thread floating around about it, a crappy, discoloring filler, or something, but overall i have heard that the clone is good otherwise.

If your not lifting now, then i wouldnt advise diving right into these with new lifting. I would heal completely, lift for a month or so, get the plan down, then go for it.

personally, if your going to do a "lean bulker" with around 3k-3.3k cals max then do a 6wk pp/zol. you can always do a trn/zol cutter later or something with the three later.

[AM07]

Hey, thanks for the advice. Are there any other good Zol clones, or is Winztrol the only one?

The only reason I would prefer to use TRN is because I have a couple bottles of it already, so I don't really want to spend the money on Zol. But I don't mind if it's better.

I rolled my left ankle today while playing basketball (thank GOD it's not sprained), but it's not really a big deal because I wasn't going to start lifting until the end of this week anyways.

Which do you think is a better lean mass and strength compound, TRN or Zol? I am most likely not going to go above 4mg TRN if I end up using it since I've read the sides at 6mg are pretty bad. Plus, it's only my second cycle, so I want to keep the doses pretty conservative. But if I stop seeing results, I may up the dosage or just increase cals (I think calories are the reason people stop seeing results, you must increase them exponentially as you grow during a cycle).

In case gyno flares up with the use of PP/TRN, would Nolva at 20mg per day be sufficient enough to reduce the gyno, or does one need to purchase dostinex?

Thanks for the help.

[AM07]

By the way, how do you rep someone? I have no clue how I got any reps, I mainly just read on this forum