Test/Tren/Bold Bulk Cycle

[northern]

Hey Guys,

Been a member for a while and have never actually posted a cycle log. I therefore decided that it was about time.

This will be my first cycle ever*:

Week 1: 1200mg Test E/ 900mg EQ/ 750mg Tren E/Dbol 30mg ED/HGH 4iu ED
Week 2: 1200mg Test E/ 900mg EQ/ 750mg Tren E/Dbol 30mg ED/HGH 4iu ED
Week 3: 1200mg Test E/ 900mg EQ/ 750mg Tren E/Dbol 30mg ED/HGH 4iu ED
Week 4: 1200mg Test E/ 900mg EQ/ 750mg Tren E/Dbol 30mg ED/HGH 4iu ED
Week 5: 1200mg Test E/ 900mg EQ/ 750mg Tren E/HGH 4iu ED
Week 6: 1200mg Test E/ 900mg EQ/ 750mg Tren E/HGH 4iu ED
Week 7: 1200mg Test E/ 900mg EQ/ 750mg Tren E/HGH 4iu ED
Week 8: 1200mg Test E/ 900mg EQ/ 750mg Tren E/HGH 4iu ED
Week 9: 1200mg Test E/ 900mg EQ/ 750mg Tren E/HGH 4iu ED
Week 10: 1200mg Test E/ 900mg EQ/ 750mg Tren E/HGH 4iu ED
Week 11: 1200mg Test E/ 900mg EQ/ 750mg Tren E/HGH 4iu ED
Week 12: 1200mg Test E/ 900mg EQ/ 750mg Tren E/HGH 4iu ED
Week 13: 1200mg Test E/ 900mg EQ/ 750mg Tren E/HGH 4iu ED
Week 14: 1200mg Test E/ 900mg EQ/ 750mg Tren E/HGH 4iu ED
Week 15: 1200mg Test E/ 900mg EQ/ 750mg Tren E/HGH 4iu ED
Week 16: 1200mg Test E/ 900mg EQ/ 750mg Tren E/HGH 4iu ED
Week 17: 1200mg Test E/ 0mg EQ/ 750mg Tren E/HGH 4iu ED
Week 18: 25mg ED Test P(may switch to test base not sure)/HGH 4iu ED
Week 19: 50mg ED Test P(may switch to test base not sure)/HGH 4iu ED
Week 20: 75mg ED Test P (may switch to test base not sure)/HGH 4iu ED
(2 days after last shot of prop)
Week 21 - 28CT

*:rofl: Ok so I was lying about it being my first cycle I just had to screw with ya.

Please understand that this cycle is not meant to be a guide for anyone else. I have worked up to the dosages over time and these are what work for me. I also will not be keeping an in depth log i.e. break down of what I eat and workouts. I however will point out noteworthy workouts and my weight increases.

Here are my starting stats:
6'1" - 240lbs - 14% Bf.

Cals: 5000
400g Protein
600g carbs
110g Fat - Mostly EFA's and from red meat.

I am trying to make this a all out bulk at 5000 cals. I will be running insulin and igf-1 during the cycle as I have never before run insulin igf and hgh all at the same time. The insulin and igf will be limited to 4-6 mini cycles i.e.

week 1-4/6: insulin PWO 3xWk. 8iu(Working up from 1iu)
week 1-4/6: Igf-1lr3 40mcg PWO 3xWk.

take 2-4 weeks off and start again.

I may get really fancy and throw in PegMGF hehe but this is starting to seem like the kitchen sink of all cycles.

Almost forgot I will be running Arimidex (tho I have exemestane on hand too if anyone thinks its better and can tell me why) at .5mg EOD as I believe that estrogen is important in a bulk an d i think it is pointless to obliterate your estrogen to 2% of what it normally is when bulking.

Anyhow that is my cycle if I seem to have forgotten anything do let me know.

Also it begins tomorrow 7/10/07.:bruce1:

 

[pistonpump]

thats alot of gear. how are your workouts like, routine etc?
8 weeks of PCT....im wondering what your plans are there. Anyway, im in.

 

[northern]

I did forget to mention hcg throughout at 250iu 2x a week.

Workouts are a 3 day split repeated twice so I hit muscles twice a week with one day off.

PCT I have written down but will post up later basically will consist of:
toremefin starting at 180mg tapered to 30mg.
DHEA
REtain
REbound REloaded
MAssFX many be a possibility that is the one thing I am undecided on.

 

[northern]

Hey guys sorry for delay. I am starting this cycle July 16th not what I originally stated the 9th. So I will let you all know how its going after the first shot.

 

[CHAPS]

That's an awesome cycle, subscribed.

 

[pistonpump]

dont mean to hijack but what you getting into chaps?

 

[Ubiquitous]

I don't do steroids.

I like that cycle, except for the large dose of tren.

I notice I can gain almost as much with 500mgs as I can with 1g.

I don't really subscribe to megadoses anymore, unless I'm going for the mysterious non AR mediated pathway that Duchaine alluded to before he imploded in his Eureka moment.

I also don't do steroids.

I'm curious, but are you running the GH for 5 months or are you extending it?

It's a nice cycle though, I like the Prop on the end.. I would drop the slin and the IGF-1 though.. a personal preference.. it caused some problems when ran with AAS and GH, that I would probably talk about, if I did steroids.

I must again brand it into your memory that I am completely natural, and really have no real world experience with these compounds.

I'm bummed that Same_old is banned... I enjoyed his attitude here.

Good luck with those crazy steroids.. I'll enjoy watching.

 

[northern]

I plan to run the GH for a year actually so I will also get in a cutter with it towards the end of the year. Interesting about the tren and I also read about the non AR mediated pathways that duchaine spoke of. I read some threads on bolex about guys doing 5-10g test a week. Interesting stuff but a bit too too heavy for me.

What problems did you heard about with igf and slin along with HGH?

 

[pistonpump]

i miss same old as well.... he was kinda an antisocial guy with no ties or noticable online friendships with anyone here. He was a lone wolf with strong opinions and experience. He was knowledgable i guess he just got irratated on some kinda substance lol.

 

[Ubiquitous]

I plan to run the GH for a year actually so I will also get in a cutter with it towards the end of the year. Interesting about the tren and I also read about the non AR mediated pathways that duchaine spoke of. I read some threads on bolex about guys doing 5-10g test a week. Interesting stuff but a bit too too heavy for me.

What problems did you heard about with igf and slin along with HGH?

I got gyno flares from the combo of IGF/HGH.. NSAIDs helped... Slin/HGH, I seemed to gain visceral fat....... you know, "organ fat"..

Anectodally, it's a possibility with those combos.

 

[jminis]

They are def some high numbers, best of luck and keep us posted.

 

[northern]

Ok guys just did the first shot 2cc's to each shoulder went in smooth as hell. This is my first ime ussing 22g rigs and I must say they are great gear slides through so easily but then agian they are big and while they dont hurt they will leave scar tissue.

I have been runnning the GH for a week no 2ius upon rising and 2 ius 4 hours later.

Interesting about the visceral fat did not know that it could lead to that how though where you able to quantify this as in how do you know it was said organ fat?

Thanks for all the views bros!

BTW anyone have any ideas as to whether digestive enzymes work and which ones to get? I seem rather bloated by the food which I am used to but its annoying and would like to keep the gut bloat down a bit if possible.

 

[getswole]

I'd Bump the Dbol up alot higher since your runnin' high numbers anyways,Mine as well start off with a bang,and since its a long cycle as long as your lipids are looking good,throw the dbol back in towards the end,maybe wks 14-18?

 

[Ubiquitous]

I'd Bump the Dbol up alot higher since your runnin' high numbers anyways,Mine as well start off with a bang,and since its a long cycle as long as your lipids are looking good,throw the dbol back in towards the end,maybe wks 14-18?

I'm not liking that logic. You don't have to bump doses on the high end with everything.... Keep in mind the total amount going into the body weekly, not counting GH/Slin/IGF.

IMO if you go big on everything, your body will say "oh yeah?" and here comes the sides.

He's on the high end with Test, a really nice level with Bold, a very high level with Tren, and a moderate level with Dbol... not to mention running GH, and playing with Slin and IGF.

I think he'll do fine without bumping everything up.

I think he'd do fine bumping it down to a 750mg/800mg/350mg/30mg run for god's sake.


I wish I really knew, but I don't do steroids.. they make me furious. :burger:

 

[getswole]

They are def some high numbers, best of luck and keep us posted.

If you consider the ester weights involved in most of this cycle its really drops the actuall numbers of actuall hormone anyways,for instance those 1,200mg Test E is really only around 900-1,000mg test considering the rest is the weight of the E ester,I think this cycle looks great as I'm also a fan of 100mg Tren ed,thats the dose I've worked up to myself,much more than that and the tren kills my kidneys,I can feel it just thinking about it,lol.I only mentioned bumping up the dbol because 30mg doesn't respond well with me,I wish it did,but to each his own.
Nice cycle,should be a fun one.

 

[northern]

Here is the thing I respond very freaking well to dbol. 30mg for is actually alot as I tend to get back pumps going any higher. However I get great strenght gains and not much bloat. I tried it once at 50mg and that was awful as I became elephant man for the duration.

I believe in high dose test it just works sooo damn well and seems, for me anyway, to keep the other compounds in check so to speak. Dont know if that made sense but well it seem to not exacerbate any of the "sides" you would get. Also I seem to tolerate tren very well done tren a at 150mg ed and while it was not worth it I really did not have a bad set of sides besides night sweats.

Anyhow, i have a question. I have 10000 iu vial of hcg will that stay good if I reconstitute it i.e i plan to use 500iu hcg a week. SO that means 10,000 will last 20 weeks. Is it likely it will stay good for that long or no way in hell? let me know thansk guys!

 

[Ubiquitous]

I've used it for 10 weeks without any problems... but damn, 10,000iu's reconstituted at once? Hard to say.

I know that Organon recommended theirs used up within 60 days... I think?

I can't answer that question in confidence, or in good conscience.. but I will say that I've used hcg that has been 10 weeks old, no problem.

 

[northern]

hmm well hell if it last only ten wks i can deal with that as I got it quite cheap so hell i will buy another one. Heard from someone else they have used it up to 16 and calimed it was good but dont know how they could "tell" i mean they had to be going on how big there nuts were and stuff not anything scientific or measurable.

 

[northern]

Nothing much too add except I get real sleepy from the gh kind of sucks but man I sleep so soundly at night and unfortunatelly during the damn day.

 

[Ubiquitous]

prepare for 6 + months of that. you don't get any less lethargic in my experience.

 

[northern]

Well today was second shot spilt it up to 2ml's per cheek. lol.

Again with lethargy makes getting work done crappy but I have an easy ass dream job so even if I am sleepy i can do it however its just less efficient.

Strength not increasing yet. Dbol just starting to kick in a lil will see in a week how im doing.

 

[getswole]

Yeah hcg is supposed to be good for 30-60 days depending on brand...Thats why I get 2000iu vials,especially as cheap as it is and considering the fact that when I'm counting on hcg every week to help keep me from shutting down so hard,its not worth the risk to"assume" its working still and not deactivated.I have read more than a few times that once reconstitued it "can" be pulled into pins and frozen for future use,however I have never tried this as I have no need to,but who knows,I also havn't read anything to disprove it.

 

[northern]

Good idea I will use it for the 60 days then toss the rest. I will buy a few more vials. I may try the froozen syringes but that might be no good either.

Thanks for the advice. Got to say its really not painful to inject however I am always sleepy . Bench was good today felt a little pumped. Anyhow will keep you guys posted.

 

[getswole]

Also if your compitent enough in yourself swab a workspace with alcohol and glove up,you can open the vial,transfer half the lypholized powder to another vial and recap both vials and then you'll have 2 5,000 iu vials,I've opened up peptide vials quite a few times w/ no problems.Even just eyeballing it you should get close enough to split it even.Or if you got a .001 scale even better

 

[CHAPS]

dont mean to hijack but what you getting into chaps?

What am i running? Well once i get the rest of my tren, it will be

Weeks 1-12 600mg Tren E
Weeks 1-8 60mg Epistane
Weeks 1-12 50mcg T3
Weeks 1-12 100-150mcg Clen/ketotifen

I'm getting a buddy to brew me up a bunch of gear right now, he has a huge powder stash. I change my mind like 20 times before i settle on a cycle, for now i'm thinking of Test E/Tren E/Bold E for my bulker. But i have comitted myself to not bulking till i'm as peeled as i feel i can possibly get, this is going on like 7 months of cutting now, i've put on a couple lbs of mass as well.

 

[CHAPS]

I got gyno flares from the combo of IGF/HGH.. NSAIDs helped... Slin/HGH, I seemed to gain visceral fat....... you know, "organ fat"..

Anectodally, it's a possibility with those combos.

Ever considered something like DCP and cabergoline while running that combo? The cabergoline will keep the prolactin in check and the DCP will help with the VAT. I find DCP and cortisol blockers to be great for VAT.

 

[CHAPS]

I'm not liking that logic. You don't have to bump doses on the high end with everything.... Keep in mind the total amount going into the body weekly, not counting GH/Slin/IGF.

IMO if you go big on everything, your body will say "oh yeah?" and here comes the sides.

He's on the high end with Test, a really nice level with Bold, a very high level with Tren, and a moderate level with Dbol... not to mention running GH, and playing with Slin and IGF.

I think he'll do fine without bumping everything up.

I think he'd do fine bumping it down to a 750mg/800mg/350mg/30mg run for god's sake.


I wish I really knew, but I don't do steroids.. they make me furious. :burger:

I agree about not having to go nutso on all the doses, he's obviously experienced and has worked up to these doses over time. Anytime you jump up in doses before you need to is a growth period wasted, everyone should keep that inmind.

 

[getswole]

I agree about not having to go nutso on all the doses, he's obviously experienced and has worked up to these doses over time. Anytime you jump up in doses before you need to is a growth period wasted, everyone should keep that inmind.

I agree with your point it is true,but I stand firm by the statement "More gear=More Growth",its just weighing in the (gains vs. sides)that only you can know what works for yourself,but you don't know til' you experiment,noone can tell you what works for you,its being open minded and seing what works.If you can handle more gear,you will get better results,I say this from experience,not from what I read somewhere.Just trying to help,I know some will disagree with me in some form or another but everybody has their opinion,which makes the world a better place.:toofunny:

But Chaps your right,I don't Reccomend anyone do some of the sh1t I do,However I won't stop you either

I'm off to Sams,I got 100lbs of meat to buy,and a case of eggs,I usually end up grilling all weekend,getting stuff ready for the week,grill 20-30 chicken breasts,Potatoes,Veggies and a few burgers.The rest of my beef I cook daily,usually dinner.Butcher slices me some beautiful petite sirloins ,there marbled and always very lean,love it.We go through some serious Ahi Tuna when its fresh,eat it raw/cold,stuffs awesome.Or you can sear it,and dip in some teriyaki sauce,mmm....I'm starvin' now...wish I hadn't started this post,lol.

 

[CryingEmo]

I agree with your point it is true,but I stand firm by the statement "More gear=More Growth",its just weighing in the (gains vs. sides)that only you can know what works for yourself,but you don't know til' you experiment,noone can tell you what works for you,its being open minded and seing what works.If you can handle more gear,you will get better results,I say this from experience,not from what I read somewhere.Just trying to help,I know some will disagree with me in some form or another but everybody has their opinion,which makes the world a better place.:toofunny:

But Chaps your right,I don't Reccomend anyone do some of the sh1t I do,However I won't stop you either

I'm off to Sams,I got 100lbs of meat to buy,and a case of eggs,I usually end up grilling all weekend,getting stuff ready for the week,grill 20-30 chicken breasts,Potatoes,Veggies and a few burgers.The rest of my beef I cook daily,usually dinner.Butcher slices me some beautiful petite sirloins ,there marbled and always very lean,love it.We go through some serious Ahi Tuna when its fresh,eat it raw/cold,stuffs awesome.Or you can sear it,and dip in some teriyaki sauce,mmm....I'm starvin' now...wish I hadn't started this post,lol.

Make me some meat bro! :hot:

 

[northern]

You guys had some interesting things there esp. chaps. I have cabergoline but did not plan to use it as I never had had trouble with prolactin however this is my first time with GH. What do you think of 0.25mg 2xWeek for cab? Also what is DCP I have not heard of it. I have heard of cytadren as a cortisol blocker is that DCP i.e. is dcp its active ingredient?

What else, I have been getting rather nausious having a hard time eating. Has anyone here used those digestive enzymes before I tried a few but they did not do squat of course they where just groery store brand enzymes. nonetheless I am willing to try them again if anyone has had good luck for them or if you guys know something better for reducing nausea or stomach bloat. By bloat I mean that feeling like you are not digesting your food. Dont think its a salt prob as I eat very little salt. Anyhow thanks for the info bros.

 

[Ubiquitous]

I personally would hold off on the Cab until a problem arises, and even then I would have to ascertain it was related to pro... too many theories abound on what causes problems like this. NSAIDS like Advil or Naproxen actually helped me after I read a Dr. D post on *seemingly* IGF related Gyno.

Truth be told the times I have had difficulties with sides, it has been when I stacked quite a few compounds and I could never isolate the problem.. so i just used a carpet bomb style attack on the sides... usually rendering me without libido and in a general PMS-like state.

I want to also add that I only speculate that the distention was VAT related. I took a rather aggressive anti-cort protocol recently and my bloated look is going away quite fast. This could be either proving it, or just me shedding water bloat.

Dopamine Agonists are effective for combatting prolactin, and I have used Cab in the past, but I just feel uneasy about using something that affects my brain chemistry anymore than I do already.


Yes, I use digestive enzymes, and they definitely do help. I use Source Naturals brand right now, but I have found many brands effective. Amylase is great for my carb ups.

 

[CHAPS]

You guys had some interesting things there esp. chaps. I have cabergoline but did not plan to use it as I never had had trouble with prolactin however this is my first time with GH. What do you think of 0.25mg 2xWeek for cab? Also what is DCP I have not heard of it. I have heard of cytadren as a cortisol blocker is that DCP i.e. is dcp its active ingredient?

What else, I have been getting rather nausious having a hard time eating. Has anyone here used those digestive enzymes before I tried a few but they did not do squat of course they where just groery store brand enzymes. nonetheless I am willing to try them again if anyone has had good luck for them or if you guys know something better for reducing nausea or stomach bloat. By bloat I mean that feeling like you are not digesting your food. Dont think its a salt prob as I eat very little salt. Anyhow thanks for the info bros.

DCP stands for Damage Control Protocol and it's an otc supplement, available at nutraplanet from RPN, it's main vat fighter is TTA a fatburning fat, it's great stuff. I've used Cabergoline for many occasions and love the stuff, it has the pleasant side effects of making orgasms more intense and allowing you to stay hard after an orgasm :thumbsup:. I'd go with .5mg monday and thursday it has a long half life and will remain in the body for days at a time. As for cytadren that is some serious cortisol suppression, and it will lower estrogen as well BUT it also messes with androgens so you better be using it on cycle and it can be a dangerous drug. X-lean or lean extreme would be my choices for cortisol suppression.

 

[northern]

Im thinking about the cab but again dont know if I should take it unless I really need it, something to think about.

Took another set of shots today, noticed a good amount of bleeding in the right shoulder but that stopped after a few minutes. HGH still causing sleepyness and strength is really starting to show, squats and bench are up 20 and 10lbs respetively but then again I did switch my training method as well.

Trying to think what else. I am thinking of extending the cycle from 18 wks to poss. 22 or 24 since eq takes both a while to work and a while to clear, I will have to debate this.

 

[pistonpump]

24 weeker..... sounds great if you have the funds to support pins, gear, more gear, food, new clothes, ancillaries, bloodwork, gear, more gear, and a hot midget whore.

 

[getswole]

24WKR.....not good...the long runs are what really hurt ya,Do a high mg short run like I'm starting next week...you know the one 60 grams in 60 days...lol

 

[northern]

I like you idea but not quite ready for it yet. I have had very good luck with longer cycles so thats why I prefer them. Anyhow had another shot on thursday, not noticing much of anything from injects yet but I am sweating constantly all day and night,. I mean literally dripping sweat off my body.

Anyhow Still taking the GH. Stupidly ran out of needles and had to take a 4day hiatus which I hope does not mess things up too much but we will see.

Thanks for your info guys.

 

[Ubiquitous]

24WKR.....not good...the long runs are what really hurt ya,Do a high mg short run like I'm starting next week...you know the one 60 grams in 60 days...lol

I feel you have more of a chance in retaining gains from longer, moderate cycles. Consider it as your body acclimating to the gains over time... Kicking a tree with your shins for months, rather than getting cracked across the shins with a bat for a couple hours.

 

[getswole]

Thats true,I mean I've done some long cycles and I agree easier to keep gains...but 24wks?thats to the point where 10yrs down the road your receptors are gonna be fvcked,That is one thiong with all gear that is truly documented,is that the longer term use without coming off as often will burn your receptors out,So if you don't care what heppens down the road then its all good,I guess my question is if you do a 24wkr and then post cycle therapy for a month or soare you gonna stay off cycle for another 24wks.....Highly unlikely,Time on=time off..If I wasn't going on cycle for 24wks I'd go nutz.I think 2-3 shorter cycles a year are much more benefitial to the majority of people.I can't say I always follow my advice either,but I do know what I "should " do,lol.

 

[Ubiquitous]

Time on=Time off is general rule of thumb, as that is the responsible thing to advocate on a forum where people go to learn about using AAS responisbly.

It's just to make sure the ignorant people recover, and don't get caught up on the neverending cycle mentality.

You can recover from a 7 month cycle in a matter of months max in my experience.

I don't think the AR downregulation theory has been proven, or documented.

 

[northern]

Well I realize time on=time off. However I have played around abut with this Idea and noticed that If I follow a more conservative PCT like i normally do. I simply need 2 months after PCT to really recover so to speak. I know I should take 7 months technically but I have never read anything proving that the receptor downregulation thing existed.

In fact I have read more stuff to disprove it than to prove it.

Anyhow my 2 cents. I have some injectable DBOL I want to try out to see about that spot injection theory just have get around to it.

Ah well soon enough.

 

[Ubiquitous]

Well I realize time on=time off. However I have played around abut with this Idea and noticed that If I follow a more conservative post cycle therapy like i normally do. I simply need 2 months after PCT to really recover so to speak. I know I should take 7 months technically but I have never read anything proving that the receptor downregulation thing existed.

In fact I have read more stuff to disprove it than to prove it.

My points exactly.. Time on=Time off, or Time on+ PCT = Time Off is merely a general safeguard for the casual user. It is indeed very responsible and people benefit from setting that in as a rule, but I have recovered quickly from very long runs. I feel I could have bounced back on after a few months, yet refrained as I don't see the need unless I compete...

This touches on that very thin line between dependence, but that is for another thread entirely. My apologies Northern.

GetSwole, please point us in the direction of this receptor burn-out documentation you speak of.

 

[getswole]

My points exactly.. Time on=Time off, or Time on+ post cycle therapy = Time Off is merely a general safeguard for the casual user. It is indeed very responsible and people benefit from setting that in as a rule, but I have recovered quickly from very long runs. I feel I could have bounced back on after a few months, yet refrained as I don't see the need unless I compete...

This touches on that very thin line between dependence, but that is for another thread entirely. My apologies Northern.

GetSwole, please point us in the direction of this receptor burn-out documentation you speak of.

Its well known in the world of Bodybuilding that long cycles will burn you out receptor wise and by the time your 30-40 you'll need some HRT,just ask Dr.D,or any Hrt Doc...I agree I wasn't speaking specifically of just AR receptors but the stoping or lack there of any natural test production...Not to mention the toll on your liver/kidneys even more so w/ longer cycles..In the end its what works for you,however HRT is not the end of the world,it could be a good thing in its own sense,I know a few that are on hrt and Still choose to be involved with bodybuilding,that still doesn't mean you should go on cycle and not come off.I wasn't trying to start an argument,take what I say with a grain of salt if you wish,its all good.I do alot of sh1t I don't reccomend anyone try,but thats me.But I am fully aware of all the risks before I do things and its a choice I make.Northern knows I'm not trying to junk up his thread with some arguement:cheers:

 

[Ubiquitous]

Its well known in the world of Bodybuilding that long cycles will burn you out receptor wise and by the time your 30-40 you'll need some HRT,just ask Dr.D,or any Hrt Doc...I agree I wasn't speaking specifically of just AR receptors but the stoping or lack there of any natural test production...In the end its what works for you,however HRT is not the end of the world,it could be a good thing in its own sense,I know a few that are on hrt and Still choose to be involved with bodybuilding,that still doesn't mean you should go on cycle and not come off.I wasn't trying to start an argument,take what I say with a grain of salt if you wish,its all good.Northern knows I'm not trying to junk up his thread with some arguement:cheers:

How is anything "well known in the world of bodybuilding" proof? There is obviously diminishing returns on long cycles, but there are a few theories for that, none of which have been proven.

I never thought this was an argument. It is a discussion and I wanted you to cite your proof of AR downregulation, which you clearly stated as fact.


You're trying to come back with a diplomatic answer which doesn't really seem to further your points. You brought up anabolic steroids induced hypogonadism, but there are studies that seem to indicate that is temporary.

Listen, I agree with you insofar as the do "what works for you" point, but arguing that long moderate cycles are worse for you than 60 day multi-compound uberdose cycles doesn't sit well with me. Much like the AR downregulation school of thought, you are also betting on a non AR mediated pathway that in itself is theory. Permanent AAS induced Hypogonadism is also a theory, and seemingly disproved.

I could also be completely wrong in my opinions.

If it works for you, then it works.. but there are always consequences when you push the envelope, in my case as well.

 

[getswole]

How is anything "well known in the world of bodybuilding" proof? .

It just is....Also I see your refering to my cycle I have going,if you read it I clearly state I don't reccomend anyone do this,I never said anything in this thread about my crazy cycle being safer than,I know what I'm doing is nutz,and I don't reccomend it by any means.But it is well known in the Bodybuilding community that long moderate cycles have more consequences than your standard"safe" 8-12 moderate cycle,I really question your thought on arguing this?But lets stop junkin' this bro's thread up,You think what you think,what works for you,I think what I think.Nothing to say either one of us is 100% right/wrong...Also I strongly agree that you shouldn't knock something til' you try it,as you probably do,I have ran cycles and extended them to past 24wks..My personal experience is my gains weren't as good as it was worth to keep cycleing that long vs. taking the time off and getting primed for another cycle.And as for the down regulation of receptors,if you don't think its true then please explain your theory as to why 500 Test a week might get you to some nice gains in a cycle or two,but 5 yrs later that same 500mg Test just isn't doing the trick and you have to bump things up to get the same gains....Same test,why not the same gains...Everyone who has cycled more than a few years knows this as fact...Personally I don't see how one can say otherwise,unless they don't know,but that would be to assume things about someone I don't know and thats not what I'm about.Maybe 10 yrs from now that same moderate cycle will be kickin' your ass,but I seriously doubt it don't you?
Are the top pros using moderate 8-12 week cycles,Hell no there not...are they making gains off the same test dbol cycle they first did,Hell no they're not,Are they pretty much juicing up into the point where they get tested preshow,Hell Yes they are,and will they live long healthy lives.....?Only time will tell,History has taught us alot but most of it is not black and white,Noone will ever know what a bro did and why he died at 40-50 yrs old,Just like noone can expalin why that guy we all knew in highschool who smokes 3 packs a day and drink til' he passes out can live to a ripe old age of 100,smokin' cigars on the news as they congradulate him on his 110th birthday...Some things are just the way they are and don't need "proof",But I value your reasoning as I hope you value mine,but if not its not like I'm gonna miss a meal over it or somethin'...I'm the first person to say breaking' from the norm and taking risks are whats gonne get results,either that or you'll learn otherwise,but you can't learn whats gonna work best for you without trying it first,when it comes down to itwho cares what everyone thinks,Look back at most of the worlds well known Olympias',and your old school muscle beach bros...Do you think they cared what they read somewhere,hell no they were breaking through barriers and writing the Books..Through diversity comes triumph,and through diversity comes new breakthroughs,and its exactly these type of issues that strongly make known that 1 thing doesn't work for everyone,genetics take that away from us all.But its nice to be fully versed with all the knowledge you can and make the most informed decision you can for yourself.:cheers:
I wish everyone good luck in everything they do,and I have no hate for anyone,Somebody could be driving drunk down my street right now and total theire rusted piece of crap farmtruck into my freshly waxed porsche,and I'm not gonna hate them,I'll be kickin some serious ass til' the cops get there but I won't hate em'Sorry to junk your thread northern,I'll rep ya:type:

 

[Ubiquitous]

long moderate cycles have more consequences than your standard"safe" 8-12 moderate cycle,I really question your thought on arguing this?

I said nothing about 8-12 week moderate cycles.

24WKR.....not good...the long runs are what really hurt ya,Do a high mg short run like I'm starting next week...you know the one 60 grams in 60 days.

I was comparing your 60gs in 60days to a 24weeker.


I also like how Northern comes across, so I wouldn't knowingly detract from his thread too severely.

Unfortunately, I cannot link the site, but search for "Androgen Receptor Regulation" By Bill Roberts, published August, 1998.

Some of it actually supports Duchaine's High Dose ideas, but in the form of upregulation or increased activity.

 

[getswole]

I said nothing about 8-12 week moderate cycles.



I was comparing your 60gs in 60days to a 24weeker.


I also like how Northern comes across, so I wouldn't knowingly detract from his thread too severely.

Unfortunately, I cannot link the site, but search for "Androgen Receptor Regulation" By Bill Roberts, published August, 1998.

Some of it actually supports Duchaine's High Dose ideas, but in the form of upregulation or increased activity.

Yeah but even in that entire study its neither proven/disproven...also that study was nearly 10 yrs ago..Alot has ben learned in 10 yrs,I'm sure you agree..I guess whan it comes down too it,Like Northern cycle extension for example,if your still making serious gainsat 16-18wks and want to push it to 24+,If your still creepin that scale up,by all means I could see extending the cycle,even against most theory's...But if your just extending "hopeing" for some gains,then to me thats the cuttoff point,I always start out with a battle plan...and stick to it ,but when things pop up you have to know when to adapt,I've been in 6 weeks on short esters and I plateaud....called it off....I've started 8wkrs.that kicked my ass and pushed them to 12-16wks even....and one similiar to that I did for 5 months....and i had made the mistake I just mentions,I was hopeing for gains,when now I've learned to feel the plateau a little better....You have to listen to your cycle,start with a battle plan,but after that your cycle will tell you what to do,you just have to listen to it...No I'm not a star wars Freak,and no the force is not with me Master:rofl:

 

[northern]

You guys make pretty good points however swole I would like to point out one thing. You said:
"your theory as to why 500 Test a week might get you to some nice gains in a cycle or two,but 5 yrs later that same 500mg Test just isn't doing the trick and you have to bump things up to get the same gains....Same test,why not the same gains...Everyone who has cycled more than a few years knows this as fact"

Well generally the reason for this is that while its till 500mg of test the person has way more muscle mass. REmember there is a genetic limit to how much muscle mass people can hold. You can be fat as hell but not muscular as hell. Remember we see people who weigh 600lbs of fat. Yet we never see a guy who is 600lbs of muscle, why bodies cant support it. There are probably other reasons but I gthink the foremost is that the reason 500 ain enough is got the bro got bigger. I know I did and If I did the first cycle I ever did now I would "grow" but not as much, why cause Im a hell of a lot heavier now then I was back then.

Just my opinion for now hell I could be wrong and stop junking up my thread bastards. Lol, no seriously this is interesting cause im way to lazy to write about my cycle so I like you guys filling it up with the conversation keep it up.

 

[getswole]

Where ya at northern,you aint updated in like 2 weeks?Hope ya ain't dead or some sh1t

 

[northern]

Come come nothing good to post. lol. Seriously tho. So far strength is up, nothing spectacular but ten pounds and a few reps to all lifts. Injectables still not quite kicking tho. I am sweating like a pig. Really cant wait till these injects start working there magic that will really be fun. GH still makes me so damn sleepy I am going to knife myself to stay awake. Got to work on that.

Anyhow thats about it. Will keep ya posted.

 

[northern]

Oh btw made some injectable dbol that I might try in the biceps and triceps as those are my most laking area.