SD, and PP mini cycles
- Thread starter lilman
- Start date
xtraflossy
Board Supporter
I dont know how you can NOT see results after 2 weeks though. If you eat your ass off its possible t odo a pound a day in the second week.
Im also very curious also with the mini cycle thing. Why would it be harder to retain the gains??? I mean, You'd still have your nat test, so shutdown wouldnt kill your gains after. If you did PCT for 2 weeks after that would be "like" going for 4 weeks.
Granted, you wouldnt put on 30 pounds. If you could gain 6-7 lbs in 2 weeks, and keep 4-5, then it seems worth it.
(Although, a 4 weeker would yeild around 15,.. and you might keep 10, but PCT is more of a bitch
Im also very curious also with the mini cycle thing. Why would it be harder to retain the gains??? I mean, You'd still have your nat test, so shutdown wouldnt kill your gains after. If you did PCT for 2 weeks after that would be "like" going for 4 weeks.
Granted, you wouldnt put on 30 pounds. If you could gain 6-7 lbs in 2 weeks, and keep 4-5, then it seems worth it.
(Although, a 4 weeker would yeild around 15,.. and you might keep 10, but PCT is more of a bitch
lilman
New member
yeah i myself was wondering why it would be hard to keep any gains. Im thinking maybe he was implying that since u wouldont gain much and if u lose 3-4 pounds of muscle u might lose it all since that could be all you have gained. Alot of people seem to gain the majority on the 2nd week tho, some on 3rd and 4th week people dont seem to like. So why not a 2 week cycle if it works. Seems good to me
xtraflossy
Board Supporter
Agreed. For me, adding the extra week or two would just do more to supress me then add beef.
less supression, quicker PCT. Also, you probably would remain more responsive to it over time.
less supression, quicker PCT. Also, you probably would remain more responsive to it over time.
lilman
New member
yeah thats what i was thinking, ur test would go up faster as u wouldont be in a cycle as long. LIke u said a quicker PCT. I do not know htis tho as i havenever done a cycle of anything. Im just trying to learn, and see why cycles would or wouldnot work. The hormone world seems like a big anc complex one to me so far, but it seems as long as some basic rules are followed then most will be ok.
poopypants
Banned
xtraflossy said:
it would be a pain to keep gains cause most likely there werent any real gains made. mostly just water weight and increased glycogen retention in the muscles, there just isnt enough time for you to grow enough in two weeks to make it a succesful cycle, plus your pretty much allready shut down and put a marginal dent in you liver that you might as well run the extra week or 2 and reap the real benifits from the supp (wich most especially with these supps see the most improvement week 3 and 4), no point in wasting it and not getting anything.
badbart
Registered User
I love the theory short cycle minimal shut down and small keepable gains. But I've never really seen it work, I've seen people write about short cycles but no one really has good success including myself. I have been toying with the short vs long cycle theory and it seems the longer the cycle the better gains and its easier to keep the gains. I've read about people being shut down and having a hard time recovering after short and long cycles. I think recovery has a lot to do with genetics and the compound used in your cycles and of course PCT.
c-los 21
Anabolic Xtreme Rep
For those that said a 2 week cycle is not the best route, I agree. During those 2 weeks most of your weight gain will come from stored glycogen and water. Make it a solid 3-4 week cycle (depending on personal history) and do it right. Followed by a solid PCT, my favs are a Nolva, RXT and Retain along with my supporting supps. This will give your "true muscle gains" a chance to develop and maintain.lilman said:
jmh80
Well-known member
4 weeks isn't really a long cycle. When we had access to the transdermal PH's, folks were doing 5 to 6 cycles on the regular.
And with most of these strong oral steroids, you will be shutdown within a week anyway. M1T bloodwork from Supersoldier showed within 3 days he was down to like 50 ng/dl.
Flossy - one you start taking an extragenous hormone, you won't have much natural testosterone production.
And with most of these strong oral steroids, you will be shutdown within a week anyway. M1T bloodwork from Supersoldier showed within 3 days he was down to like 50 ng/dl.
Flossy - one you start taking an extragenous hormone, you won't have much natural testosterone production.
xtraflossy
Board Supporter
I understand what everyone is saying. I wouldnt know how much this would help but for a short cycle, I would plan on taking supps to keep my nat test going (basicly, a degree of PCT while on). I wouldnt retain much water due to Id be taking ephedra (makes me piss all the time) and that I walk 2.5 miles to work (and another 2.5 back). I weigh in after work, so I dont think by then I would be retaining much water, cause I sweet my ass off on those walks.
Basicly, your probably not %100 shut down after the first week (SD only), and the thinking is running the usual PCTs might be able to keep you going through most of the second. Would doing something like this be a "given"?, and your saying it still wouldnt work?
Im not tring to push the issue, but I think It's one worth exploring. MAinly because I have also have some ERGO and PP left over- and I got shut down hard comming up on the 3rd week. It took 4ever it seemed to get back on track. I wouldnt want to run a 4 weeker on those and be left in that condition for that amount of time if I can avoid it.
Do you think there would be a better way to go about a shorter cycle? What would your opinions be on a SD compaired to an ERGO+ - PP?
Basicly, your probably not %100 shut down after the first week (SD only), and the thinking is running the usual PCTs might be able to keep you going through most of the second. Would doing something like this be a "given"?, and your saying it still wouldnt work?
Im not tring to push the issue, but I think It's one worth exploring. MAinly because I have also have some ERGO and PP left over- and I got shut down hard comming up on the 3rd week. It took 4ever it seemed to get back on track. I wouldnt want to run a 4 weeker on those and be left in that condition for that amount of time if I can avoid it.
Do you think there would be a better way to go about a shorter cycle? What would your opinions be on a SD compaired to an ERGO+ - PP?
xtraflossy
Board Supporter
Most people I have seen here (at least on ERGO or PP) say they really felt to shut down at the end of week 2 or 3.
And many accounts say they never really felt shut down on just SD.
So, assuming that it may take just over 2 weeks (and to me, PP or LMG definately add some sort of T to your system, while SD may do the same but not to the same extent as the others IMO) to fully shut down, ending as cycle right before would mean that your not totally shut down when you begin PCT.
As far as tring to keep your nat test going, it would be possible to keep it going (at least a LH signal) while ON cycle. Even if your body is getting it's T from another source, you can still be telling your body to produce. Im sure, that after the first 10 days or so, the amounts will be reduced some, but its always easier to start a warm engin then it is to start one thats been left in the cold.
Ya might want to add some sort of E-blocker before bed, because your getting test from an external source, so your estrogen levels will be elevated as well (this will happen anytime you use Trib).
If your loosing size and mass due to your body going through re-regulation and the catabolic effects, then eliminating the distance between "stop to Go" will reduce the time and the extreams your body might have to go through to get there.
Now, it would seem like the gains from SD are "stickier" then PP or LMG, so I would assume that has to do with either the chemicals involved (with SD not being such a "external test" source) or the degree of time (and the reactions to the adjustments being made) it takes to self regulate.
Again, this is more common sence to me. I could be wrong, and there is a greater chance that Im talking out of my ass.
I mean, (for say) your going to loose %30 of your SD gains, then your going to loose %30. Wether you put on 10 and loose 3 (by the way, I just picked the number 30 outta the air) or put on 6 and loose 2. Your body also has to acclimate itself to the added weight. It would seem like a 6 pound gain may be easier to adjust to then a 10+ lb gain.
Maybe- (maybe) having to adjust to the 6 pound gain would be easier and not as drastic in a mass change where the body just might except it more, and not try as hard to adjust, thus lessening the amount of post-cycle losses.
OK, so now I feel like I freakn have an ad for my very own supp in the back of Muscle and Fitness!!
But, with as much as Ive said, It cant all be wrong???
And many accounts say they never really felt shut down on just SD.
So, assuming that it may take just over 2 weeks (and to me, PP or LMG definately add some sort of T to your system, while SD may do the same but not to the same extent as the others IMO) to fully shut down, ending as cycle right before would mean that your not totally shut down when you begin PCT.
As far as tring to keep your nat test going, it would be possible to keep it going (at least a LH signal) while ON cycle. Even if your body is getting it's T from another source, you can still be telling your body to produce. Im sure, that after the first 10 days or so, the amounts will be reduced some, but its always easier to start a warm engin then it is to start one thats been left in the cold.
Ya might want to add some sort of E-blocker before bed, because your getting test from an external source, so your estrogen levels will be elevated as well (this will happen anytime you use Trib).
If your loosing size and mass due to your body going through re-regulation and the catabolic effects, then eliminating the distance between "stop to Go" will reduce the time and the extreams your body might have to go through to get there.
Now, it would seem like the gains from SD are "stickier" then PP or LMG, so I would assume that has to do with either the chemicals involved (with SD not being such a "external test" source) or the degree of time (and the reactions to the adjustments being made) it takes to self regulate.
Again, this is more common sence to me. I could be wrong, and there is a greater chance that Im talking out of my ass.
I mean, (for say) your going to loose %30 of your SD gains, then your going to loose %30. Wether you put on 10 and loose 3 (by the way, I just picked the number 30 outta the air) or put on 6 and loose 2. Your body also has to acclimate itself to the added weight. It would seem like a 6 pound gain may be easier to adjust to then a 10+ lb gain.
Maybe- (maybe) having to adjust to the 6 pound gain would be easier and not as drastic in a mass change where the body just might except it more, and not try as hard to adjust, thus lessening the amount of post-cycle losses.
OK, so now I feel like I freakn have an ad for my very own supp in the back of Muscle and Fitness!!
But, with as much as Ive said, It cant all be wrong???
jonny21
Registered User
A pound of what? You cannot possibly mean LBM.xtraflossy said:
It is virtually impossible for an adult to synthesize > 2.5lb of LBM in a week. I think that is only possible for infants, but they require ~108kcals/kg to do it.
IMO from my personal experience, I believe you need at least 3 weeks of SD. Weight comes on quick but it is most likely related to additional glycogen, water storage. Don't be fooled by people stating that it has a diuretic effect. For every gram of glycogen 3 grams of water is needed. This is not even considering total serum volume increase.
I've done 2 SD cycles, both 3 weeks (25 days). I taper the dose down finishing with 10mg/day for the final. Something like this:
Night before: 10mg
Days 2-4: 30mg SD
Days 5-11: 20mg SD
Days 12-18: 20mg SD
Days 19-25: 10 mg SD
I always felt the SD for almost an entire week after last dose.
I don't overeat just ~300 above maintenance. I have milder gains than most but they stay with me. I have also not felt shutdown on SD alone.
Remember, I don't know **** anyway.
xtraflossy
Board Supporter
A pound= a pound. And it wasnt bodyfat. Its impossible to know exactly what it was. All I know is I eat relitivitally the same things every day. I made a point to not increase my intake at all (as a test to see how well it really worked since I had not done anything like that in 5 years or so).
Usually, I'll flux from 167.7 in the begining of the week, and by the end (I walk 4 miles a day to/from work, so I sweat a lot, and burn more cals just from that) I'll be 166.9ish-
At the end of the first 3 days (I began at 20mgs, on a tuesday) I was 169.9. If I didnt change my diet then,...storrage? Its hard top believe since I would have used up much of that walking in the morning and evening (thats before the gym, which is when I weighed in).
So, do I possibly mean that was LBM???- why not. Might as well.
I guess to add to the argument, I obviously have adapted to my diet and retained size over the years. The gains have been very slow, but I used to be a fatty way back, so excessive bulking I just resist. But, if you looked at me, Im 5.7, (was)165-7 bodyfat %9. I might have "developed" unusually high hgh levels or something, because imo theres no way I could eat/work like I do and cary the size I have. (Im not freakn huge obviously, but I definately get noticed).
Whatever the case may be; After 2 weeks "something" should be noticable.
Usually, I'll flux from 167.7 in the begining of the week, and by the end (I walk 4 miles a day to/from work, so I sweat a lot, and burn more cals just from that) I'll be 166.9ish-
At the end of the first 3 days (I began at 20mgs, on a tuesday) I was 169.9. If I didnt change my diet then,...storrage? Its hard top believe since I would have used up much of that walking in the morning and evening (thats before the gym, which is when I weighed in).
So, do I possibly mean that was LBM???- why not. Might as well.
I guess to add to the argument, I obviously have adapted to my diet and retained size over the years. The gains have been very slow, but I used to be a fatty way back, so excessive bulking I just resist. But, if you looked at me, Im 5.7, (was)165-7 bodyfat %9. I might have "developed" unusually high hgh levels or something, because imo theres no way I could eat/work like I do and cary the size I have. (Im not freakn huge obviously, but I definately get noticed).
Whatever the case may be; After 2 weeks "something" should be noticable.
200wannabe
Board Supporter
jonny21 said:
Good post.
I have had similar experiences myself with SD, ran alone i have experienced little shutdown.
Gaining a pound of muscle a day is simply not possible!
xtraflossy
Board Supporter
I said gain a POUND-
I then went on to explain further that is could consist of a combination of things. But by 14 days using SD, "something" (some sort of weigh increase, fat decrease, eyelids of a collie) should be noticed.
I then went on to explain further that is could consist of a combination of things. But by 14 days using SD, "something" (some sort of weigh increase, fat decrease, eyelids of a collie) should be noticed.
wastedwhiteboy2
Board Supporter
with SD the pound a day was probably glycogen stores.
feeling shut down and being shut down are 2 different things. LMG does not add test to your system. when talking about SD you should probably refer to it as external hormone instead of external test. your estrogen levels will not increase if you are using a non aromatising hormone like 1test. reducing the estrogen on cycle, some say will reduce the degree of shutdown. flossy some of your ideas sound good.
feeling shut down and being shut down are 2 different things. LMG does not add test to your system. when talking about SD you should probably refer to it as external hormone instead of external test. your estrogen levels will not increase if you are using a non aromatising hormone like 1test. reducing the estrogen on cycle, some say will reduce the degree of shutdown. flossy some of your ideas sound good.
xtraflossy
Board Supporter
Thanx- I havent been keeping up on the new tech as far as these supps are concernd, but the principals should be simular from when I was.
Im just wondering about some of my "theories"- as when I "jumped back in" bout 2.5 months ago, I picked up a little of everything. I mean, I got a couple of SD's, PP's/ERGO but I also was curious about the other things. So, I have a bottle of this, a bottle of that... Shorter cycles would let me "experience" each on its own. I'm just looking for the safeset/best way to go about it.
Im just wondering about some of my "theories"- as when I "jumped back in" bout 2.5 months ago, I picked up a little of everything. I mean, I got a couple of SD's, PP's/ERGO but I also was curious about the other things. So, I have a bottle of this, a bottle of that... Shorter cycles would let me "experience" each on its own. I'm just looking for the safeset/best way to go about it.
poopypants
Banned
ya as far as the PCT type supp throughout cycle i doubt you can maintain natty test production by using one, you will definately lower you estrogen levels and possibly slow your shutdown but from what ive read its not possible to completely stop shutdown. just for giggles though i was taking and ATD throughout this last M-TRN cycle (isnt tren supposed to shut you down hard?) but didnt really notice any loss in libido till about week 3's end and i just came off the ATD like 3 days ago and ive almost had a libido rebound and doin just fine, even though i havent even started pct and will still be taking m-trn for a couple more days.
BodyWizard
Registered User
with respect to all the folks that have done short cycles, I'm not convinced the idea really holds water (so to speak).
Just as being shut down & feeling shut down are different things, so are being on and feeling on. The more I look into the hormone business, the more it seems that whenever someone starts changing their hormones, the body goes through an adaptation period that lasts somewhere in the 2-6 week range, during which you may or may not feel definite effects, but also during which the full effects of the compound are not yet in play. This has to do with a ton of variables, governed by the principle of homeostasis, or 'keeping things on an even keel'; and until things get re-programmed, you can't really say a cycle has begun.
In the absence of hard clinical findings, it's hard to say anything useful or interesting about how to account for this adaptation in planning a cycle, but it's not hard to see that putting your body through that adaptation, and then stopping dosage & forcing it 'into reverse' with no intervening run-time for the new chemistry, is hard on the endocrine system & the rest of the body, liable to produce results that are all over the map, potentially dangerous, and completely unnecessary.
Seems like short-cycle thinking and high(er) dosing go along together, too; seems almost more like binging than cycling.
It will no surprise me if, in 10 years or so, cycles are generally long, slow, & dosed low. Even in self-transformation, the lure of quick & easy results are undeniable, and those results often illusory. Long-term, keepable gains remain the gold standard.
Just as being shut down & feeling shut down are different things, so are being on and feeling on. The more I look into the hormone business, the more it seems that whenever someone starts changing their hormones, the body goes through an adaptation period that lasts somewhere in the 2-6 week range, during which you may or may not feel definite effects, but also during which the full effects of the compound are not yet in play. This has to do with a ton of variables, governed by the principle of homeostasis, or 'keeping things on an even keel'; and until things get re-programmed, you can't really say a cycle has begun.
In the absence of hard clinical findings, it's hard to say anything useful or interesting about how to account for this adaptation in planning a cycle, but it's not hard to see that putting your body through that adaptation, and then stopping dosage & forcing it 'into reverse' with no intervening run-time for the new chemistry, is hard on the endocrine system & the rest of the body, liable to produce results that are all over the map, potentially dangerous, and completely unnecessary.
Seems like short-cycle thinking and high(er) dosing go along together, too; seems almost more like binging than cycling.
It will no surprise me if, in 10 years or so, cycles are generally long, slow, & dosed low. Even in self-transformation, the lure of quick & easy results are undeniable, and those results often illusory. Long-term, keepable gains remain the gold standard.
xtraflossy
Board Supporter
I see your point.
I wasnt expeciting the same type gains. I realize that the cycle is shorter= gains will be less.
I wonder how many of those changes you mentioned are ones that we could do without though. Either in the effect of the change or the length of.
I wasnt expeciting the same type gains. I realize that the cycle is shorter= gains will be less.
I wonder how many of those changes you mentioned are ones that we could do without though. Either in the effect of the change or the length of.
ex_banana-eater
Member
There is some merit to the idea that two week cycles will not allow leydig desensitization in such a short period--and that inhibition only happens in the hypothalamus at that length. Apparently the pituitary is actually hyper-sensitized!
Somebody at AL mentioned their endogenous testosterone levels being above pre-cycle 3 days post 2 week dbol cycle. Looks like 2 weeks in a superphysiological androgen environment with only 2 days of recovery. I would imagine/suggest higher doses for these shorter cycles as to accrue more muscle mass. This shouldn't effect the level of inhibition since a superphysiological dosage drops your endogenous levels completely anyway. Our primary concern should be mechanisms of suppression and how far down the HPTA axis they've spread.
Somebody at AL mentioned their endogenous testosterone levels being above pre-cycle 3 days post 2 week dbol cycle. Looks like 2 weeks in a superphysiological androgen environment with only 2 days of recovery. I would imagine/suggest higher doses for these shorter cycles as to accrue more muscle mass. This shouldn't effect the level of inhibition since a superphysiological dosage drops your endogenous levels completely anyway. Our primary concern should be mechanisms of suppression and how far down the HPTA axis they've spread.