CYCLE LENGETHS NOW VS. 15 YEARS AGO.

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    CYCLE LENGETHS NOW VS. 15 YEARS AGO.


    Ok guys. I am confused.. [which is normal for me..]
    last night at the gym this conversation came up after our workout.

    These guys are talking about doing 14-20 week cycles! And from what I have been reading on the boards this is the thinking of the day. Since I have never have done any aas or even ph cycle I might be out of line. But here is my observations of the last 20 years of training with some top level amateur and national competitors.

    1. 15 years ago cycles were 4-8 weeks. Stacking was almost non-exsistent .. a stacking cycle was usually a test product with a cut product ie..winstrol thrown in at the last 4-6 weeks. this was rare. It was usually a bulk cycle then off , then a cut cycle..

    2. We had No PCT...Yes you would pick up Nolva in case of bitch tits. But you didn't use it unless symptoms occurred.Guys who complained of teste shut down were the ones who never came off a cycle..We made fun of these guys..Because when they were forced to come off,they shrunk down to nothing and so did their ego's..

    3. We had no GH or igf..Way too expensive or it couldn't be found.

    4. There was no creatine,whey protien, prohormones, mrp's or really anything of value to help support your training. When Hott Stuff came out everyone was buzzing.. for the young guys Hott Stuff was basically every supp. on the market at the time rolled into one..

    5. Training phylosiphy at the time 3 days on one off. 20-30 sets per body part. This was for non natural and natural BB'ers..So we overtrained big time..

    Now here is what i DON'T UNDERSTAND...Please guys don't be angry with me only telling it as I see it.

    With all of the advancements in training,nutrition, drugs etc..Why are the average gym rats of old Bigger with less sides then the ones of today? I look at the guys who are "on" in my gym today and guys on these boards talking about 20 week cycles..and they weigh 200-215 maybe 225..at 6' tall or better. some guys are sub 200 lbs. at 5'10 and up..If you are 6' tall and you weigh 180 and are training .. and using.. something is not right..I never remember guys 15-20 years ago who were cycling walking around 6' 190lbs ..more like 6' 260 with abs..That was common.. Guys doing 16 week cycles and got their bench up to 250!![read posts here and elsewhere] I was doing that for 8 reps when I was 16 .. NO Drugs..So here is my conculsions:

    1. Todays drugs are not as strong as the ones 20 years ago. since they are knock off labs.

    2. The cycle times are way too long..causing teste shutdown and other sides..

    3. Guys today are not putting in enough clean time at getting big before starting their first cycle. [ I want to be big now not 4 years from now.] Hence never realizing their true potential because what they have is built like a house of cards. Need a strong foundation to build a big house..
    The reason I am asking about cycle time is I am seriously considering my FIRST cycle. After 22 years of training. Sorry I got on my soapbox.. Just want to see why cycle times have changed so much... someone please splain...

    Oh.. and if anyone took offense at my observations. ie smaller gym rats of today.. I wasn't trying to offend. I just want to know if anyone else thinks these cycle times are too long.And please if you are 180 lbs. soak and wet at 6' please don't give advice on this matter. You probably need to take advice not give..

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    1) food was ALOT better back then
    2) food was cheaper back then

    I know for a fact that meats were better for you back then, and less preservatives in other foods and all that other junk that we have today......granted I am 5'9 at 210-215 currently....however I reached my genetic limit at age 25 after 4 years of training seriously at 190...my father is only 140lbs and my mom is tiny at 110lbs...I dont have the genetic makeup to be a bodybuilder......I have only done 3 cycles, and each was 10-14 weeks.....i wouldnt consider that a long cycle.....however, I wish you would elaborate more on what people used back in the day and at what dosages and pin scheduling...that will help us in giving you solid feedback...today people are only using 500mg of test and growing good off of it...I read books from back in the day and they say to use testoviron at 1ml a day for like 25 days.....thats 1.5g of test/wk! hell yea i could grow off of that....I think nowadays people respect gear more, and use respectable dosages.....I wont say everyone, but for the most part...I am only using 600mg of test on my last cycle and I gained 15lbs....although if I am on for say 3 months, after PCt I will stay off for 3 months....no wonder you say guys were huge all year round..they were on practically year round....

    my question to you is:
    what was a sample diet of the guys you know back then?
    what was their training regimine like?
    what dosages, and what gear did they use, and what type of scheduling?
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    drugs are too easy to get today and people without the requiste dedication in terms of nutrition are using drugs .. with a MUCH larger sample population you'll see a greater divergence in results

    the drugs of today are fine .. the training and legal supps are better .. just more people are using drugs meaning, necessarily IMO, that more idiots are using drugs .. which explains your observations
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    Quote Originally Posted by glenihan
    drugs are too easy to get today and people without the requiste dedication in terms of nutrition are using drugs .. with a MUCH larger sample population you'll see a greater divergence in results

    the drugs of today are fine .. the training and legal supps are better .. just more people are using drugs meaning, necessarily IMO, that more idiots are using drugs .. which explains your observations
    Excellent point.. most of the guys I knew back then trained in high school and probably 2-3 years after that before ever going on. I have guys coming up to me after being in the gym 2 or 3 months asking where to get and how to use . I tell them I don't know never used any and they look at me and think I am lying. I tell them I have been training for 22 years on a pretty regular basis using heavy weights and eating right. Thats how I am 6' 260. [ don't have abs at 260 abs at 245-250]. Plus I have big frame and good genetics. Still don't believe me. I explain 22 years gaining 3lbs. of lbm a year = 66 lbs. of lbm gain ...Then they say that is too long....lol... I am starting to feel like Yoda. maybe I will change my name here.
    May the force be with you..
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanbodybuilder
    1) food was ALOT better back then
    2) food was cheaper back then

    I know for a fact that meats were better for you back then, and less preservatives in other foods and all that other junk that we have today......granted I am 5'9 at 210-215 currently....however I reached my genetic limit at age 25 after 4 years of training seriously at 190...my father is only 140lbs and my mom is tiny at 110lbs...I dont have the genetic makeup to be a bodybuilder......I have only done 3 cycles, and each was 10-14 weeks.....i wouldnt consider that a long cycle.....however, I wish you would elaborate more on what people used back in the day and at what dosages and pin scheduling...that will help us in giving you solid feedback...today people are only using 500mg of test and growing good off of it...I read books from back in the day and they say to use testoviron at 1ml a day for like 25 days.....thats 1.5g of test/wk! hell yea i could grow off of that....I think nowadays people respect gear more, and use respectable dosages.....I wont say everyone, but for the most part...I am only using 600mg of test on my last cycle and I gained 15lbs....although if I am on for say 3 months, after PCt I will stay off for 3 months....no wonder you say guys were huge all year round..they were on practically year round....

    my question to you is:
    what was a sample diet of the guys you know back then?
    what was their training regimine like?
    what dosages, and what gear did they use, and what type of scheduling?
    Sample diet which I still use today:
    meal 1- 6 egg whites one yolk 1 cup oatmeal

    meal 2- protien shake

    meal 3- chicken breast or lean beef or tuna . rice or yam or good veggies.

    meal 4- protein shake. whole wheat pasta [carbing before workout]

    workout

    meal 5 - see meal 3 with less carbs..

    meal 6 - protein shake or egg whites. note. you can replace any other meals with meal 3..meal 3 is the staple but it gets expensive and not easy preparing that much food.

    calories were usually between 3000-3500 per day.

    Training was 3 0n 1 off. We overtrained. If your on gear it probably doesn't hurt hitting bodyparts twice a week. but we did 20-30 sets per bodypart twice a week. thats too much. probably why we were always pretty lean.

    gear usage they did - [ I have never used.] I can't tell you the exact dosages because I don't know. But the guys I knew who were really big and competeing were not using as high dosages as the smaller guys. They use to laugh at those guys saying how they were wasting their gear.More is not always better, it can make things worse. Your body can only handle so much of a substance at one time. example if you take too much vitamin c it will make you sick . But here is what they were doing then:

    bulk cycle- 4-8 weeks of test e or cyp. some might go 10. weeks.then off for same period as on. no cardio by the way.

    basically just any good bulk drug.

    cut cycle - winstrol , anavar, equi. 4- 8 weeks added cardio. cleaned up diet.bulk diet keep it clean but we still went out once a week..
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    I'll have to agree with the number of idiots using. think of all the m1t stories. I used to run cross country, track, wrestle... now its hard for me to gain weight. I could not get to 180 before my first cycle. also I will have to admit to eating a few big macs here and there. so my diet is not perfect.
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    oh yea definately a bunch of idiots out there nowadays...but aside from that.....lets talk seriously here..i like this friendly debate.....ok so you are saying people used eq for 4-8 weeks? what doses are we talking about here? eq doesnt start really working until week 3 and the good properties start at about week 8.....then it has a 3-4 week halflife before leaving the system......
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    This is an intersting read, not the first time I heard an "old school" lifter saying pretty much the same thing as far as drug use. I have seen more than my share of guys asking about gear that were 6' and 155-165(not B.S.ing), I tell them to eat more dead animals and lift weights, notice I said weights as in start lifting to begin with.
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    i have to see how this thread pans out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by glenihan
    the drugs of today are fine .. the training and legal supps are better .. just more people are using drugs meaning, necessarily IMO, that more idiots are using drugs .. which explains your observations
    I'll just agree with this... I see alot of guys, that really believe they have training right, and have nutrition right.. Yet they don't and they don't have clue just how much they don't know. hell dedication, is a big problem as well. So many guys actually train with decent dedication while on, only to loose motivation and stop when the cycle is over... I'm not saying I've got all the bases covered, but I have had dedication down since the day I picked up a weight, and every day, my overall diet, and training techniques and understanding continue to improve. And I see myself doing this for the rest of my forseeable life. This isn't a fad with me. (oh and there is no way in hell I'll ever be sub 200 at 6' tall )

    most of the people your talking about, just don't have thier heads in the right place.. and aren't seeing all the issues nor the reality of the situation at hand. They think they do though, so their going to try, and most will fail.

    I just wish I started 10 years ago... but I didn't.
    Last edited by Poobah; 10-14-2005 at 09:33 AM.
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    Wait a tic. Three pounds over 22 years is 66 pounds. And you're 260 pounds. So, you started at 194.

    Now, I started at 142 a little over a year ago, and I'm probably a 75% ecto. Given a choice between reaching your starting point in 21 years "naturally," or 2 years hormonally --- I'll take the drug addled route.

    I certainly don't see a moral reason to stay "natural." The health concerns are genuine, but they are very manageable.

    In fact, I don't see a reason why a trainee couldn't start using drugs from day one. Assuming they can instantly perfect the basics (which never happens, which is why starting from day one is a bad idea in practice), the only real danger is that he'll blow up too quickly and get stretch marks.

    Drugs can be used to get you past your genetic max, but they can also be used to get you there much quicker. And I simply don't see that as a bad thing.
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    did you have a chance to see the guys from then's Diets?? or hear of what they were eating? i personally know that to get big you have to eat big, and most of the guys of today (noninformed AAS users) think that the stuff is just a magical thing and that they only have to eat protien to gain. then theres your guys of today that are on and eating like crazy (oldschool they call it) and making ABSOULTELY F'N AWESOME GAINS!! i dont really know my point other than the first question of if you know anything about their diets.
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    Could be wrong but, simply more people working out today - therefore your average trainee (hardly serious with diet and training) are using compounds like M1T and stay small.
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    This is a good debate...We can all learn from this too..That is why I posted it. I am trying to learn if a longer cycle is better than a shorter one.

    Ryan brings up an excellent point! Some of these compounds don't start working for 3 weeks. So 8 weeks would be short and wouldn't seem to get much out of it. I asked these guys the same question. I was told because of the extended half life it was still working well 3 to 4 weeks after last use. So if you did 8 weeks you were on for really 11-12.
    I forgot to mention that these guys usually did kickstart with an oral for 2 weeks. My bad!!
    Now their philosphy was this. Receptor sites!! These guys said shorter cycles and lower doses kept the receptor sites fresh. Enabling them to make continuous gains.

    Here was the difference that I observed:
    I use to train at a very hard core gym in the NE. There were lots of big boys and some gals. There were 2 types of really big guys in the gym :
    1. ones that were on all the time with big doses

    2. ones that were one short cycles and smaller doses.

    What set them apart was the guys who were on all the time and used heavy dosages got very big very quickly .

    The guys who used short cycles and lower dosages did not get as big as fast as the other guys. But... They got bigger in the long run than the others and did not suffer from the "sides" the others did. As matter of fact they did not seem to suffer from the common sides at all. And when the others were forced to stop usually because of medical issues they got pretty small.
    My one friend who did small doses short cycles always seemed to keep a lot when he was off. He didn't overload his receptor sites or hurt is bodies own natural test production by using this method. Thus when he went back on he made great gains all the time.
    Another thing was these guys didn't worry about cutting up every cycle. They spent their time and money on getting big. Cutting was for contest prep.. maybe they would cut up a little for beach weather.
    contest time they would start with a mild bulk agent but they really focused on miler cut agents.
    They already had a awsome foundation from the bulk cycles.
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    I think essentially quick burst type cycles are much easier to recover from... which translates to less lost gains before your natural production comes back... less saturation, and the ability to run another burst in short order...

    However i think the difference between then and now is.... Today's supplements bring post cycle therapy and on cycle maintainance to a whole new level.. which can dramatically increase the productivity of such a cycle by reducing and downtime, and improving recovery... HCG, on cycle to minimize testicular shutdown... IGF on cycle as well in pct to improve testicular rebound as well as it's anabolic effects.... HGH, yet another way to stay anabolic during and after pct... Lets not forget cortisol suppressing agents, that fight stress, and curb catabolism.

    I think in a day, where pct wasn't often used if ever... short burst cycles would be in your best interest.. and in all right still probably are from shutdown and recovery perspective... but with all these new compounds available, longer cycles can be just as effective, and potentially more so... then again, whats stopping you from using burst cycles and all the above mentioned supps.... hmmm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildman536
    did you have a chance to see the guys from then's Diets?? or hear of what they were eating? i personally know that to get big you have to eat big, and most of the guys of today (noninformed AAS users) think that the stuff is just a magical thing and that they only have to eat protien to gain. then theres your guys of today that are on and eating like crazy (oldschool they call it) and making ABSOULTELY F'N AWESOME GAINS!! i dont really know my point other than the first question of if you know anything about their diets.
    Wildman hit the nail on the head!! Diet is the most important part of training!!Period!!not drugs, not lifting...Diet.

    Let me put it to you like this...Do you want to be a big ass BB'er or a Mr. Fitness Competitor!

    If you want to get big..Really BIG ... you better be eating some big frickkin steaks, omlettes, chicken and other quality protien sources...Yes you will gain so extra BodyFat..No your not going to have your abs showing all year . [I don't mean turn into a fat slob ] But that is what you need to do to get big!!!

    If you want abs all year and look like Fitness competitor. Then keep eating salads and very low cals. Just don't expect to look like Arnold on those diets.. I know most of the pics you see of the big time guys they are always sporting abs..it is a photoshoot. They don't want you to see them all bloated up..It doesn't sell..Look at the recent ad showing Lee Priest pushing diet fuel..He is lookking pretty chunky.. Thats because he is bulking getting bigger..You will see Arnie in some old pics all bloated up too. You just don't see a lot of them.. They don't sell..

    BTW for anyone interested in training or diet that I do Just ask ... no cost... I have 22 years of trial and error. I can tell you what to eat and how much and how to train. It is up to you to do it.. And my exact diet amounts will not work for everyone.. You have to tweak your diet yourself.. I can get you close..Training is simple...Heavy and not a lot of sets...
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldskoolbb
    Wildman hit the nail on the head!! Diet is the most important part of training!!Period!!not drugs, not lifting...Diet.

    Let me put it to you like this...Do you want to be a big ass BB'er or a Mr. Fitness Competitor!

    If you want to get big..Really BIG ... you better be eating some big frickkin steaks, omlettes, chicken and other quality protien sources...Yes you will gain so extra BodyFat..No your not going to have your abs showing all year . [I don't mean turn into a fat slob ] But that is what you need to do to get big!!!

    If you want abs all year and look like Fitness competitor. Then keep eating salads and very low cals. Just don't expect to look like Arnold on those diets.. I know most of the pics you see of the big time guys they are always sporting abs..it is a photoshoot. They don't want you to see them all bloated up..It doesn't sell..Look at the recent ad showing Lee Priest pushing diet fuel..He is lookking pretty chunky.. Thats because he is bulking getting bigger..You will see Arnie in some old pics all bloated up too. You just don't see a lot of them.. They don't sell..

    BTW for anyone interested in training or diet that I do Just ask ... no cost... I have 22 years of trial and error. I can tell you what to eat and how much and how to train. It is up to you to do it.. And my exact diet amounts will not work for everyone.. You have to tweak your diet yourself.. I can get you close..Training is simple...Heavy and not a lot of sets...
    i learned that a few years ago. EAT BIG TO BE BIG!! we dont do this to have that Ripped look all the time just for competition time!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poobah
    I think essentially quick burst type cycles are much easier to recover from... which translates to less lost gains before your natural production comes back... less saturation, and the ability to run another burst in short order...

    However i think the difference between then and now is.... Today's supplements bring post cycle therapy and on cycle maintainance to a whole new level.. which can dramatically increase the productivity of such a cycle by reducing and downtime, and improving recovery... HCG, on cycle to minimize testicular shutdown... IGF on cycle as well in pct to improve testicular rebound as well as it's anabolic effects.... HGH, yet another way to stay anabolic during and after pct... Lets not forget cortisol suppressing agents, that fight stress, and curb catabolism.

    I think in a day, where pct wasn't often used if ever... short burst cycles would be in your best interest.. and in all right still probably are from shutdown and recovery perspective... but with all these new compounds available, longer cycles can be just as effective, and potentially more so... then again, whats stopping you from using burst cycles and all the above mentioned supps.... hmmm.
    Good post poohbah.. you are right .. I thought pct stood for percentage. lol..But does PCT help receptor sites? That was the idea for burst cycles.. Keeping them as receptive as possible..The thinking was if you overload the receptors.. They never fully recover!! Thus no matter how much you do or how long in your next cycle you are not going to get the full potential! This is the key...Like if you eat 100 grams of protien in one meal, your body is going to get rid of most of it. but if you divide that meal into 3 you are going to get the full potential..This is what I am trying to find out. Are you going to ruin the all important receptors on longer cycles..
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildman536
    i learned that a few years ago. EAT BIG TO BE BIG!! we dont do this to have that Ripped look all the time just for competition time!!
    ahhhh you are very wise for your years...
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldskoolbb
    Good post poohbah.. you are right .. I thought pct stood for percentage. lol..But does PCT help receptor sites? That was the idea for burst cycles.. Keeping them as receptive as possible..The thinking was if you overload the receptors.. They never fully recover!! Thus no matter how much you do or how long in your next cycle you are not going to get the full potential! This is the key...Like if you eat 100 grams of protien in one meal, your body is going to get rid of most of it. but if you divide that meal into 3 you are going to get the full potential..This is what I am trying to find out. Are you going to ruin the all important receptors on longer cycles..
    That's a good question.. and i honestly don't know the answer to that is. And if I'm not mistaken the whole receptor issue is still largely debatable... Alot of people lately seem to be talking mega dosing and new metabolic pathways... more = more, I don't know on which side to believe... but in this last cycle I decided to keep test to 500mg and tren to 400mg and keep things reasonable, as I will in my next cycle... What I'm doing is working right now, and I don't see the need for more at this time (but then again, when I'm finally cut down and ready to really bulk, and really eat to grow, I'd gladly consider 1gram+ test (long ways off yet).

    As far as Receptor pct... I've read in the past, but haven't studied the issue in detail.. that dnp can indeed help clear receptor sites... But dnp is a product I have no wish to try at the moment, probably never for that matter... but then again if it does work in that fashion, perhaps a small dose for that purpose migth be woth consideration (although much more research is needed on my part). As for actually permanently damaging receptor sites... I'm not certain, but my largely uneducated opinion is that's its a not likely... ?
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    This is a good thread, I think alot of why so many trainers arent as big is just the diet as said before, everyone wants to keep as low as bodyfat as possible, and the diet required to keep bodyfat at that level isnt going to be putting on muscle very fast. Everyone wants to keep the abs for the girls and look through the designer clothes magazines and see the models that basically the only muscle they have is their abs, so alot of guys get that image stuck in their head. Got to pound the food if you want the muscle, bottom line.

    Hey oldskool, could you send me an email at chevrolet502@hotmail.com, got a couple questions.
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    In my opinion, AAS cycles today are far too much for far too long. There seems to be a notion that every drug needs to be included in the cycle at large dosages for extended periods of time. This seems to apply to the majority of users from the novice to the veteran. Unfortunately, such a trend leads away from a healthy lifestyle as one is jeopardizing overall health strictly for vanity/lean muscle. Ultimately, one needs to recognize that these extended cycles with extreme dosages are not healthy and to me the fitness lifestyle is about being fit, internally and externally.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldskoolbb
    ahhhh you are very wise for your years...
    thank you, the only people i have to impress are my daughter (on the way) and my wife.--(who could in all reality not care about my looks so its ok to get a little BF)

    but in all reality id like to get as big as humanely possible and there is only one constant FOOOOD!!!!
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    Holy ****. glenihan is scary looking. that is awesome.
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    I dont know about recepters either but one thing I noticed was that with each m1t cycle I did I got less results. Now I use a different ph/ps each cycle so I never run a substance back to back. Although there is a theory that I probably should run test every cycle.
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