I lost nearly all my SD gains using Nolva as PCT!!!

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  1. I lost nearly all my SD gains using Nolva as PCT!!!


    I did a 3.5 week cycle of SD using liquid Nolva as a PCT. I am starting my third week off and lost all but 2lbs of my gains. At the end of my cycle I was 198 lbs. (up 10), now I am 190 lbs. (up 2). I lost 90% of it during the week that I was off. I was expecting to lose half at the most but this is nearly all of it.

    I think its from taking a break right after the SD but I had to take one cuz my muscles were starting to ache from six weeks of lifting with no breaks. I had no symptoms besides back pumps at the end. I also used fish oil, milk thistle and hawthorne berry on cycle.

    Could I get some opinions on what I should do next time? I am having trouble knowing what week to start a cycle after a break and when I should take my break after a cycle.

    I know its the first week back in the gym but my strength is down about 15lbs (on bench) from what I was before cycle. I'll see how everything else goes during the week.

    Diet was good on and off cycle. Lots of fish, veggies, chicken, beans, fiber. Got it all.

    Other than this I feel great. Test levels feel like they are back again.

    Cycle info:
    Week 1 - 10mg
    Week 2 - 10mg
    Week 3 - 20mg
    Week 4 - 20mg/end cycle/start PCT Nolva 40mg
    Week 5 - Nolva 40mg/Rest from gym
    Week 6 - Nolva 20mg/Back in the gym

  2. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    You're likely to get this thread shut down because you are only 20. But while it is still alive and breathing I'll suggest that you my want to look at your diet. Most people will gain a transient 8-10lbs from SD just from the glycogen retention (muscle volume/pumps) it produces. The key to keeping that weight on is in your post cycle diet and training. Nolva did not make you loose the weight. You need to eat at least as much (in surplus) as you did while on cycle, for the first few weeks, and train about as regualrly as you did when on as well. Time off right after a cycle is not the best time to take it. A couple few weeks of solid training at the begining of PCT is advisable...then take a few days off to get some rest.
    All my life I've never stopped to worry 'bout a thing,
    Open up and shout it out, an' never try to sing,
    Wondering if I've done it wrong,
    Will this depression last for long, wont you tell me,
    Where have all the good times gone.
    •   
       


  3. I'm actually 26.....i never put the right dates and stuff when i register. I just put crap information. fixed it now


    but anyway....i know nolva didnt make me loose it cuz my test levels are great. what i really want opinions on is when to start SD after a break and when to take a break after. I can really never go beyond 6 or 7 weeks of training without a break.

    What i did with this cycle is start 3 weeks after my last break. Should I start earlier??

    btw my supp experience is only m1t a few years ago (gained 15...kept 10)

  4. In your case, start immediately after a break, use for three weeks, then break 4 weeks after discontinuation of SD. A break is good every once in a while, but try taking a few days off and getting back into the gym, rather than a week off evey 6 weeks.

    Like B stated, keep the calories up!

  5. i would use clomid over nolva and up the carbs big time after sd, potatoes, pasta, rice....
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  6. what do u mean a break? how long?are you doing a 3 day split or what? Im confused on how you cant lift for more then 6 weeks at a time sounds like a dedication problem ! if it is that then no substance is going to help in the long run

  7. Quote Originally Posted by OmarJackson
    i would use clomid over nolva and up the carbs big time after sd, potatoes, pasta, rice....
    Just curious, what are the advantages of clomid over nolva?

  8. That topic has been beaten to death. Let's just say there are those who hate Clomid, and those who don't.

  9. Well I for one love clomid, but always rely on nolva to carry me through PCT. I just use clomid for the first week or so to jump start my balls, haha.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Addiction
    Just curious, what are the advantages of clomid over nolva?
    as said, this has been beaten to death, and although nolva seems to have won over clomid from a scientific literature stand point, i stand by clomid because i've always felt that it got my test back up better.

    traditionally clomid has always been the favored pct drug, and nolva was an anti-gyno drug. so thats the way i use each respectivly. call me old-fashioned.

  11. also a lot of people bitch about clomids side effects. this is probably because people have always been told to mega dose clomid the first day of pct at 300mg and then 100mg for a week. i tried this once and i experianced bad sides and recovery wasn;t any better.

    just dose 100mg ed week 1, split into 2 50mg doses, and 50mg ed for the second week.

    i have never experianced a bad side doing it this way.

  12. Have you guys used clomid alone for PCT then, just asking for clarification. I would like to try this, but have always been afraid it might not work as well as nolva for restoring natty test. Now with raloxifene out, I may just give that a try.

  13. Nolva doesn't increase/restore natural test levels.

    Clomid leads to the production of FSH and LH, thereby increasing natural test production.
  14. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Addiction
    Just curious, what are the advantages of clomid over nolva?
    Clomid, Nolvadex, and Testosterone Stimulation by William Llewellyn
    All my life I've never stopped to worry 'bout a thing,
    Open up and shout it out, an' never try to sing,
    Wondering if I've done it wrong,
    Will this depression last for long, wont you tell me,
    Where have all the good times gone.

  15. Short oral only cycles aren't that great even with good bulkers like m1t or SD.
    Many shy away from this topic even after losing 80% post-pct but its the truth. Its difficult to keep an extra 10lbs on of lean mass on an already stacked frame.

    The good news is that gaining back the 'lost' mass is faster probably due to muscle memory.

  16. Well, I was reading your case and the only supplement you listed for PCT is Nolva. Did you take any of the side supplements during your SD cycle? Such as, CoQ10, Red Yeast Rice, Odorless Garlic, Pro liver, Hawthorn, and Policosanol. You will need to add these supplements to your SD cycle and continue these supplements through your PCT cycle.

    You might want to add HMB, Lean Xtreme, DHEA, Glutamine, BCAA, Flax/Fish Oil, and CEE/Creatine on your next PCT cycle because these supplements will help you keep some or all of your gains.

    I did a four week cycle of SD and a five week cycle of PCT. I have kept my SD gains and gained a couple of extra muscle weight and size. I will be ending my PCT cycle this week. I don't know what my post PCT results will be but this is the info I have right now.

    also


    Did you drop your calories? How much carbs and protein did you consume during PCT?



    Quote Originally Posted by Budweiser Frogg
    I did a 3.5 week cycle of SD using liquid Nolva as a PCT. I am starting my third week off and lost all but 2lbs of my gains. At the end of my cycle I was 198 lbs. (up 10), now I am 190 lbs. (up 2). I lost 90% of it during the week that I was off. I was expecting to lose half at the most but this is nearly all of it.

    I think its from taking a break right after the SD but I had to take one cuz my muscles were starting to ache from six weeks of lifting with no breaks. I had no symptoms besides back pumps at the end. I also used fish oil, milk thistle and hawthorne berry on cycle.

    Could I get some opinions on what I should do next time? I am having trouble knowing what week to start a cycle after a break and when I should take my break after a cycle.

    I know its the first week back in the gym but my strength is down about 15lbs (on bench) from what I was before cycle. I'll see how everything else goes during the week.

    Diet was good on and off cycle. Lots of fish, veggies, chicken, beans, fiber. Got it all.

    Other than this I feel great. Test levels feel like they are back again.

    Cycle info:
    Week 1 - 10mg
    Week 2 - 10mg
    Week 3 - 20mg
    Week 4 - 20mg/end cycle/start PCT Nolva 40mg
    Week 5 - Nolva 40mg/Rest from gym
    Week 6 - Nolva 20mg/Back in the gym

  17. Quote Originally Posted by QUICKRYDE
    You might want to add HMB, Lean Xtreme, DHEA, Glutamine, BCAA, Flax/Fish Oil, and CEE/Creatine on your next PCT cycle because these supplements will help you keep some or all of your gains.
    Or you might not, Nolva didn't cause you to lose your gains... your lack of diet/training increase after getting off SD compared to while on caused you to lose your gains. Get your diet right before you try pH's, and 20 is to young anyway.

  18. yea i did take hawthorne, garlic, proliver, glutamine and creatine.

    to the guy who was saying that it will probably be easier to gain back the lost muscle mass it seems like it was. I did gain 2-3 lbs since the end of PCT and my strength has been going up without much of a diet change (the usual).
  19. Ghosting
    Ghosting's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Addiction
    Just curious, what are the advantages of clomid over nolva?
    For test raising abilities Clomid is weaker than Nolva, but Clomid makes you balls plump up faster, so people equate that to them producing test. Since when is testicle size related to how much test they put out?


    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catnolv.htm

    3rd paragraph under characteristics :
    Nolvadex is clearly the stronger component of the two

    http://www.medpharmacare.com/clomid.htm

    First paragraph :
    Clomiphene citrate is usually used for preventing aromatization ( but is not as effective as Arimidex or Nolvadex in this field )
  20. Ghosting
    Ghosting's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by anabolicfreak
    Nolva doesn't increase/restore natural test levels.

    Clomid leads to the production of FSH and LH, thereby increasing natural test production.
    They are both SERMs. They both take up estrogen receptors (ER). Estrogen is the negative feedback to the hypothalamus which leads to test production via the HPTA. Estrogen comes from test, so when these SERMs are taking up ERs at the hypothalamus, the hypothalamus "thinks" the body is low on test. So it kicks out GnRH. When the pituitary sees GnRH it kicks out LH, and when the testicles see LH, the Leydig cells in the testes kick out test.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by scarfacebling
    what do u mean a break? how long?are you doing a 3 day split or what? Im confused on how you cant lift for more then 6 weeks at a time sounds like a dedication problem ! if it is that then no substance is going to help in the long run
    It is very wise to take a break for 1-2 weeks every so often so you can let your body heal up...especailly for ectomorphs who have a lot of recovery problems as is. Not only does this allow for physical recovery, but it also allows for mental recovery as far as dedication/motivation goes.

  22. If you gained 10 lbs assuming most was tissue, your maint. calories went up about 150-200 calories. Did you acount for this post cycle? If you don't feed the new muscle it will go bye bye really quick.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by lifted
    It is very wise to take a break for 1-2 weeks every so often so you can let your body heal up...especailly for ectomorphs who have a lot of recovery problems as is. Not only does this allow for physical recovery, but it also allows for mental recovery as far as dedication/motivation goes.
    not disagreeing here but not during PCT or imeditaly after

  24. never take a break right after your cycle, and keep those cals high, as mentioned. Breaks are necessarry, but you need to keep nutrition and workouts solid (albeit slightly altered) when your test levels are low and you are recovering.

  25. The studies Bill referenced showed over a 6 month period.

    Nolva takes many months to causes a significant increase in LH and FSH, whereas Clomid is almost immediate. Clomid therapy over a longer period however (such as for several months), actually lowers LH and FSH. Thus, it is recommended that clomid be discontinued after several weeks (i.e. 3 or 4) of usage. Nolvadex will do virtually nothing to help testosterone levels in that time period.

    The reason is that these compounds are site specific. That's the "S" part of "SERM" refers to. Nolvadex binds almost entirely to estrogen receptors in breast tissue. Clomid binds almost exclusively around the pituitary and hypothalmus. Both have SOME systemic binding. To my knowledge IIRC relox is mostly systemic which is why it is effective for osteoperosis.

    This is the reason that Clomid does not work to prevent or stop gynecomastia. It is also the reason why Nolvadex is never used as a fertility drug.

    Before I learned this, I had been suspicious of something to this regard due to personal experience. Nolvadex alone did positively nothing to help my recovery, whereas Clomid worked quite well. The thing is, both together have purpose in PCT. The reason being that many are more susceptible to gyno during that time. So Nolva should be used as it is always used; to prevent gyno, and Clomid should be used as the primary agent to increase FSH and LH. When going off for an extended period, to ensure full recovery, one can continue using Nolvadex over the course of several months to ensure a more thorough recovery since it takes that long for Nolvadex to have that effect on FSH and LH.


    I have seen data that suggests that low dose arimidex is also beneficial during PCT in addition to Clomid and Nolvadex.
  26. Ghosting
    Ghosting's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosting
    For test raising abilities Clomid is weaker than Nolva, but Clomid makes you balls plump up faster, so people equate that to them producing test. Since when is testicle size related to how much test they put out?


    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catnolv.htm

    3rd paragraph under characteristics :
    Nolvadex is clearly the stronger component of the two

    http://www.medpharmacare.com/clomid.htm

    First paragraph :
    Clomiphene citrate is usually used for preventing aromatization ( but is not as effective as Arimidex or Nolvadex in this field )
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosting
    They are both SERMs. They both take up estrogen receptors (ER). Estrogen is the negative feedback to the hypothalamus which leads to test production via the HPTA. Estrogen comes from test, so when these SERMs are taking up ERs at the hypothalamus, the hypothalamus "thinks" the body is low on test. So it kicks out GnRH. When the pituitary sees GnRH it kicks out LH, and when the testicles see LH, the Leydig cells in the testes kick out test.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nullifidian
    Nolva takes many months to causes a significant increase in LH and FSH, whereas Clomid is almost immediate.

    Before I learned this

    Nolvadex alone did positively nothing to help my recovery, whereas Clomid worked quite well.


    When going off for an extended period, to ensure full recovery, one can continue using Nolvadex over the course of several months to ensure a more thorough recovery since it takes that long for Nolvadex to have that effect on FSH and LH

    So Nolva should be used as it is always used; to prevent gyno, and Clomid should be used as the primary agent to increase FSH and LH
    Is this another my balls got bigger faster post or I could feel my test rising in my blood stream things? Or are you dropping some bro science on us?

  27. Read the studies that William Llewellyn mentioned. They show that Nolvadex took 6 months before significant elevations in FSH and LH could be detected.


    What makes SERMs different is what they do in different tissues. After reading more into ralox, it appears that raloxifene is an agonist in bone tissue (more powerful than natural estrogens), moderately potent in the liver (about as powerful or more powerful than natural estrogens), and moderately antagonistic (FAR weaker than natural estrogens) in breast tissue. It is curretnly not well known ralox's effects on the hypothalmus. Thus, what IS known is that in women it has shown a decrease in spinal fracture caused by osteoperosis (bone), increased bone density (bone), improved lipid profile (liver), slight decrease in breast size (breast), and a decreased likelihood of contracting breast cancer over placebo (breast).

    I should correct myself regarding tamoxifen. Aparently it is used sometimes as a fertility treatment but typically only in conjunction with Clomid. Once again though it is a situation where success is typicaly not seen until many months of therapy. Clomid however is still the first choice due to its very pronounced and almost immediate effect on FSH levels in particular.

    Ralox is only just starting to be looked at as a possible fertility treatment.


    Btw, regarding Clomid being inneffective for prevent gyno; Clomiphene is only slightly weaker than estrogen in breast tissue. Prolonged Clomid use can actually CAUSE gyno in men.

  28. Quote Originally Posted by scarfacebling
    not disagreeing here but not during PCT or imeditaly after
    I respectively disagree. The first week of PCT, I believe that training will only hurt your chances at keeping gains. Your T levels are low, and LH doesn't even begin to rise until the latter part of the first week. This will lead to serious overtraining. If you cannot recover, then you should not train. I've implemented this into my PCT and have been able to keep more of my gains this way. And then in the latter weeks of PCT, I will still only train every third day.

    Maintenance is key here, not gaining. But if it has worked for you, that's great....but I would bet that 90% of trainees will only benefit from taking the first week off and reducing training frequency in general.

  29. To the original poster, I do not think that taking a break was the primary factor...I believe that it was indeed your diet and loss of glycogen storeage from the SD. Gotta keep those cals high during PC. I believe even moreso than what they were on cycle. I always increase a minimum of 300 over when in PC.

    This is also the main reason why oral only cycles aren't the way to go here...especially in regards to these big mass-gainers like SD, dbol, drol ,etc..

    The body is more capable of keeping newly added muscle when it has a chance to get used to it. Gaining 12lbs. in 3 weeks is not long enough to keep new muscle....that is why it is always suggested to run an injectable cycle past the orals for awhile longer in order for your body to get accustomed to the newly added lbs.
  30. Ghosting
    Ghosting's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Nullifidian
    Read the studies that William Llewellyn mentioned. They show that Nolvadex took 6 months before significant elevations in FSH and LH could be detected.


    What makes SERMs different is what they do in different tissues. After reading more into ralox, it appears that raloxifene is an agonist in bone tissue (more powerful than natural estrogens), moderately potent in the liver (about as powerful or more powerful than natural estrogens), and moderately antagonistic (FAR weaker than natural estrogens) in breast tissue. It is curretnly not well known ralox's effects on the hypothalmus. Thus, what IS known is that in women it has shown a decrease in spinal fracture caused by osteoperosis (bone), increased bone density (bone), improved lipid profile (liver), slight decrease in breast size (breast), and a decreased likelihood of contracting breast cancer over placebo (breast).

    I should correct myself regarding tamoxifen. Aparently it is used sometimes as a fertility treatment but typically only in conjunction with Clomid. Once again though it is a situation where success is typicaly not seen until many months of therapy. Clomid however is still the first choice due to its very pronounced and almost immediate effect on FSH levels in particular.

    Ralox is only just starting to be looked at as a possible fertility treatment.


    Btw, regarding Clomid being inneffective for prevent gyno; Clomiphene is only slightly weaker than estrogen in breast tissue. Prolonged Clomid use can actually CAUSE gyno in men.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nullifidian

    Btw, regarding Clomid being inneffective for prevent gyno; Clomiphene is only slightly weaker than estrogen in breast tissue. Prolonged Clomid use can actually CAUSE gyno in men.
    *sigh*


    Umm...ok, the HPTA in your body must work different than everybody elses.

    Ghosting dont be an idiot. Look at Bills studies. His study on LH and FSH is the end all, be all of studies. Plus Ghosting, you are welcome to feel my balls after PCT on Clomid. My testiscle size is proof.

    Despite that they are alike in structure, Clomids starting dose is 150mg and Nolva is only 40mg. You still want to claim Clomid rocks for PCT? Oh ya, Bills study. I cant believe this is even a consideration for PCT if it werent for the size of your nuts. Other than that, it should be confined for fertiality.

    BTW, I never once mentioned Ralox, so Im not sure why you included it, but thanks for telling me about PCT.
    Last edited by Ghosting; 09-12-2005 at 05:54 PM.
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