When I Lose Control.....I Like It! Prop/Tren A
- 05-16-2005, 12:59 PM
When I Lose Control.....I Like It! Prop/Tren A
Monday, May 16, 2005
Red Dragon Labs
W 1-6: 100mg Prop + 75mg Trenbolone Acetate EOD
W 7-10: Custom Nolvadex 40/30/20/20
Nothing Drastic. This is planned as a short strength and minor recomposition cycle for summer. I hope to keep any muscle tissue built. This has yet to be a problem for me.
Lean Body Mass: 5lbs give or take
Thermogenesis: I'll be happy with any fat loss achieved. First time using Tren.
I haven't had a good experience keeping strength gains over the last year on my pushing work. It seems like sometimes overnight, I lose a lot of what I have worked very hard for due perhaps to lack of CNS stimulation. I keep muscle fairly easily on the otherhand on account of my high eating capacity.
Therefore I am going to work very hard on pulling work. Particularly I am in good shape to work Deadlifts, Chins/Pullups, Curls and most any other pulling work you can think of. Grip work will be included as well. Pushing work will be done in higher rep ranges with a focus on hypertrophy. As usual I will adjust what and how I train for strength to accomodate what I am taking. I expect surprises and avoidance of injury is and will continue to be my main priority.
I will be doing cardio. Mainly the elliptical trainer and swimming. Additionally, I will log some hours doing lawn care as that is my primary business right now, other than being a student full time.
Bodyweight: 247 bloated
Forearm: 13 1/8"
Chest: 47 1/4"
Blood Pressure: 127/73
Past Cycle History
You can find most of it in the cycle info section at Anabolicminds. My AAS cycle is logged at ironmagazineforums journal section.
3 Short PH/PS cycles
1 Long Ester AAS cycle (Test E based)
For Control of Gyno
Bromocriptine (2.5-5mg ED)
B6 (600mg ED)
Arimidex (.25 mg ED at most)
Nolvadex (10mg ED)
I am also planning a couple of other measures to try and keep gyno at bay. My diet is going to be a eucaloric cutter more or less and I tend to notice fewer problems with gyno when I try a Protein Strictly Mother ****er type diet. I need a hypocaloric diet if I expect much fat loss anyhow.
Also, I may need to completely drop the Prop from my arsenal or greatly reduce the dose. I shed hair very badly on Testosterone, and I am very gyno prone. If my hair stack proves ineffectual, I may just rid myself of the problem by switching to a Tren only cycle for awhile, libido be damned.
I don't plan to use the following unless I have to. My best weapon so far has been simply getting rid of any testosterone used and also limiting use of AI's/anti-E's. I have used most of these in the past and they seemed fairly ineffectual at the time.
For the sake of brevity, these are the only supplements I am listing. I don't have plans to use very many supps at all unless I really need to. The gyno prevention, I see as a must however.
I am going to keep to 2g/lb protein when I feel I can. I do however still have two protein induced heart arrhythmias that flare up much too often. They seem to be at their worst when I combine a lot of protein with really high calories. I will not be using whey protein at all as it directly causes me to have a sleeping arrhythmia right before bed each night. I don't have a problem with taking Ephedrine, Caffeine, Nicotine or any other similar stimulants, although I don't plan to use many of these during this cycle. Main protein sources will be Tuna, Casein, Egg Protein and Leanish Beef. That will have to do. Honestly calories will be a big problem. I am going to try to keep them as low as I can by sticking mainly to protein. But I make no major guarantees when the test kicks in. Sometimes I go a little nuts. That is another reason, I may go tren only part of the time or greatly reduce the test. In that instance I might slightly increase how much Tren I am using. Once again, I am aware of what this may do to my libido, but it may also be the only way to keep gyno down, hair loss down, calories low etc.
Soon, definitely. I already have everything I need onhand. I have not yet done equal time on, equal time off. I took my last shot in early March. I have been off of everything but my multivitamin and fish oil for the past month plus. I am going to take a few days off of lifting right now before firing it up. I will be eating a mild hypocaloric diet during this time and doing cardio.
Updates will be made daily or whenever I hit the gym. I'll try to include as much detail as I can.
Any and all comments are welcome and encouraged. I am sure I have left some things out regarding my plan and I will be glad to clarify if needed.
Last edited by Cardinal; 05-18-2005 at 04:05 PM.
- 05-16-2005, 08:39 PM
Mother ****er That Prop Hurts!!!!!!!!!! But I can still walk, just a minor limp, thats all! I'll be able to walk just fine in, hmmm, about 42 days. Day One successfully complete. I preloaded a few syringes to cut back on the work since I am doing this thing EOD.
I am starting B6 and Vitex today, bromo will commence tomorrow morning. I am going to give it a few days to one week before I start nolvadex or arimidex simply because they both should cause me major shedding and I don't want to confuse shedding from prop with shedding from nolva.
05-17-2005, 11:46 AM
Why are you using Vitex and Bromo? Vitex should be fine by itself as a preventative measure. Both is overkill. Besides, bromo is a little rough with the sides. Keep the bromo as a backup and run the vitex alone.
I'd also say drop the B6 down to normal levels. B6 is toxic in high doses and I don't think we have any evidence to support that it helps humans at all.
Also, are you mixing the tren and prop in the same syringe to but back on the prop pain?
05-17-2005, 02:08 PM
Hey, thanks for the feedback rhino! I have used bromocriptine before and was partly including it for its appetite suppressive effects. I didn't know that it did the same thing as vitex. I did however, have a mild hypoglycemic episode a few minutes ago at only 2.5 mg of the stuff, so I think I will discontinue it. You are absolutely right. I'll get plenty of sides from the tren no doubt. I can also drop the B6 down. I didn't check the toxicity level. That way I'll only have one major ancillary (Vitex) to help prevent tren gyno. And if it works, great. Not too expensive.
My tren and prop is mixed in the same container. For now I may just deal with the pain. I noticed that it dissipated after a few hours. Today, I can barely feel it (I know where to shoot in my quad). I'll be thinking of stuff to cut it with if the pain is worse in other sites. The pain on injection, I can handle as it is rather brief, if intense.
05-17-2005, 02:22 PM
Always have been interested in Tren Acetate supplementation but I love my hair way too much. When I had my very first cycle 2 years ago I almost lost my mind when the frontal area of my hairline was severely thinning. ANd that was just on a cycle of 750mg of Test Enanthate and 400mg of Deca per week. But oh how ill prepared and educated I was back then. Hell of a little pharmacist now if I say so myself, but back then I was just very uneducated.
05-17-2005, 02:42 PM
Yep, in your situation it might be best to just avoid tren all together. If not, I would suggest running it alone as given your circumstances, combining test and tren might be really bad.
My hair just sheds really bad on test. The first bald spot will be on the crown at the back. So I am a little more adventuresome. My hair also has always grown back in the past. The odd thing is that I still really haven't found a combo of stuff that works really well to stop the shedding. My best effort on a test cycle was to stand in the shower and let the water leave it like I wanted it to be combed. Then run a wide pronged comb through it lightly. I lost less hair that way and will do that same this time if I have to.
05-17-2005, 07:52 PM
Originally Posted by Cardinal
Nicotine gum was much more effective at reducing appetite for me than bromocriptine. It also had much fewer sides.
Of course nicotine has it's own concerns as well.
Here are the facts on the B6. I used to take a ton of B vitamins in general. I never saw any symptoms of toxicity, but better safe than sorry. And I believe the longer you use high dose B6, the greater the toxicity gets.
What is the health risk of too much vitamin B6?
Too much vitamin B6 can result in nerve damage to the arms and legs. This neuropathy is usually related to high intake of vitamin B6 from supplements,  and is reversible when supplementation is stopped. According to the Institute of Medicine, "Several reports show sensory neuropathy at doses lower than 500 mg per day" . As previously mentioned, the Food and Nutrition Board of the Institute of Medicine has established an upper tolerable intake level (UL) for vitamin B6 of 100 mg per day for all adults . "As intake increases above the UL, the risk of adverse effects increases ."
1. Selhub J, Jacques PF, Bostom AG, D'Agostino RB, Wilson PW, Belanger AJ, O'Leary DH, Wolf PA, Scaefer EJ, Rosenberg IH. Association between plasma homocysteine concentrations and extracranial carotid-artery stenosis. N Engl J Med 1995; 332:286-291.
2. Institute of Medicine. Food and Nutrition Board. Dietary Reference Intakes: Thiamin, riboflavin, niacin, vitamin B6, folate, vitamin B12, pantothenic acid, biotin, and choline. National Academy Press. Washington, DC, 1998.
05-17-2005, 08:56 PM
Okay, thanks for the reference. The reason I didn't check the toxicity is b/c I remember all B vitamins being water soluble. So I wasn't so concerned over a short time span.
I have actually tried quite a few appetite suppressants. Nicotine gum/patch/lozenges are by far my favorite. It is however, quite pricey in its various forms. I love the mental effects. I have also successfully used E HCl/Caffeine, Clen (good appetite reducer for me), Bromo and now am going to give Hoodia a shot. Even if I overeat, this cycle I will probably not use too many appetite decreasers.
I used my first AAS cycle to eradicate a binge eating disorder I have had for several years now. I was really surprised and thankful when I found out I could eat 5-6k a day and not gain bodyfat at 250 lbs. What a relief. That calorie level feels really normal to me. That is one reason I am not making a huge effort at calorie restriction this time around. I want to see what tren can do around or a little below maintenance for me.
05-17-2005, 09:14 PM
I would love to hear more info on this, if you can. How it came about, how it was diagnosed, how it feels, etc.Originally Posted by Cardinal
Sorry if I am being nosy.
05-18-2005, 10:31 AM
I'll be glad to elaborate. Sorry this might get a little long.
When I first started bodybuilding in September of 2002, I noticed that I always passed out after a workout and usually every evening as well. I took it to be hypoglycemia. In retrospect however, insulin was only part of the problem. Using whey or milk protein in large quantities actually causes me an arrhythmia. Right as I am going to sleep, my body gets a major kick from my heart and I am wide awake then. The rest of the day, my body lurches off and on. I call it protein jitters. I posted a thread about it at avant and got some good feedback. It turns out several people have this problem, but their cause is likely different than mine.
Kelly Baggett suggested a partial explantation involving insulin and glucagon. Increased sympathetic nervous system activity is one of the biggest causes of heart arrhythmias. SNS activity increased as glucagon increases and insulin crashes. Best explanation I have seen so far for why it happens when I go to sleep.
When I get rid of whey and milk protein, it goes away almost entirely. I have to consume pretty insane amounts of tuna and casein at once to get it to happen. And then it is only very mild.
The second type of arrhythmia I experience is much worse and started this past December. At one point I got 10,000 or more noticable arrhytmias ED. My heart will typically beat hard for 5 or 6 beats maybe then skip one noticably. Protein intake seems to be the biggest problem here, any protein. When I eliminate most all of it from my diet, within a few days the problem is completely gone.
In retrospect it seems very high calories while consuming protein makes it the worst. I was eating 8000 calories a day for quite awhile this spring on a major AAS bulk. It was very bad at the time. I noticed recently that when I combine brown rice and olive oil + protein, my **** goes crazy on me. A few days ago I dropped caloric intake quite a bit and chose proteins that I reacted well to and so far, very little trouble.
The problem is a bit positional as I have them as I lay down and am prostrate on the bed. Exercise also seems to effect it a tad bit presumably b/c of the link with insulin. While I am standing they are rarely as bad, but they do occur. Also, the more I move around and the faster I move, the less I notice the problem.
I can tolerate any stimulant I have ever tried with no problems whatsoever. Also, no AAS or PH/PS has given the slightest indication that they might causes a problem. It seems to be high calories and protein at the root of it. Again, w/o protein intake I have no arrhythmia.
Official diagnosis is heart wall discomfort/benign arrhythmia. I do notice the heartwall discomfort separately and that may be partly due to high creatine content of all the meat I eat. Not sure, but feels like minor heartburn at worst and generally isn't a problem. But I honestly don't know that the docs have much of a clue. So I took it into my own hands to find out what caused it and how to get rid of it. They didn't recommend medication as that can sometimes make them worse. My diet modifications have helped me most.
Hope that clarifies a bit. The only other possible cause for the second arrythmia might be my used of T3. I used it at the inception of the arrhythmia this Christmas for nearly 2 weeks at a dose of up to about 50+ mcg each day. Thereafter I haven't used it and don't actually think it is the cause. Previously I have never consumed that many calories for an extended timeframe, nor eating quite that much protein. In any event, I definitely shy away from stimulants now, more b/c I don't like the sides than anything else. Each morning I wake up with virtually no arrhythmic activity. It only gets bad after I eat.
05-18-2005, 12:36 PM
Interesting, I'm glad you shared. I suffer from arrhythmias as well, and have yet to determine the cause. I have been told it is most likely related to my anxiety, and that they are not life threatening. Still I get them usually when working out, or like you right before sleep, and it's scary to be pushing yourself hard in the middle of a set when it happens.
Anyway thanks for sharing, and good luck with the cycle.
05-18-2005, 01:57 PM
Your welcome. I definitely suggest that you make a post detailing your problem over at avant labs if you haven't already. I spoke with a few people over there that had your exact problem. It often happened to them when they were working out. I figured you might also have them, hence the curiosity. You might even talk with Kelly about it. Dudes wicked smart.
05-18-2005, 02:05 PM
Wednesday, May 18, 2005
HS High Row 160x2x10, 220x10, 240x5
DB Bent Rows 110x5, 90x2x8
Curls 60x6, 55x6, 50x6, 45x6, 40x6, 35x6, 30x6
Lat Pulldowns 200x7
COC Gripper Tx10, Tx12, Tx17, #1x2x5
Elliptical 26:00, 400kcals, 75rpm, 170+ heartbeat
I made an effort to do pullups and chins, but my elbow was quite sore from doing TBDL's the other day. In any event I don't think I would have been good for more than 2-3 at 244 lbs bodyweight. Got some work to do on those. I think I'll train them to increase my ability to do rep work. Haven't lost anything on curls yet. Still moving the 60's decently.
I stuck myself in the ass about 10 hours ahead of time. No pain, can barely feel it now. It is probably just the location I shot, but I also heated the oil lightly. I am using a trick I read on meso. For glute shots I am putting all my weight on the other leg to relax as much as possible. Upper outer quadrant of course. Didn't notice much else but slightly fuller muscles and having to be careful how I roll out of bed in the morning. Haven't gotten any of the other sides I am used to on Test yet. I am getting that weird feeling where I look forward to giving myself shots. Hope it lasts.
Last edited by Cardinal; 05-19-2005 at 02:15 PM.
05-19-2005, 02:02 PM
Thursday, May 19, 2005
19 Working Sets
CGBP 185x8, 195x6, 200x5
HS Decline 120x10, 140x7, 160x5
HS Incline 160x8, 200x7, 220x4
Leg Extensions 160,180,200x15, 220x12
HS Calf Raises 290x15+, 310x15+
HS Tricep Extensions 100x10, 120x10, 140x7
Elliptical 27:00, 400kcals, 70rpm, 165 heartbeat
I keep forgetting to take a blood pressure reading. Will do so at some point. Its not too high right now based on feel.
Pumps were moderate, nothing special. So the prop isn't fully doing its thing yet. I have made a decision to rely more heavily on the Hammer Strength machines that I have access to on account of my joints. Those machines feel very comfortable and I don't think I am as likely to risk injury. The big three and a good bit of other stuff will still be done using free weights though. 1/2 and 1/2 mix probably.
It seems just knowing that I am on amps up my workouts somewhat. I lost a little leg strength on the extensions, but the rest of my work was exactly what I expected it to be. Some of the sets were a little too easy for me, letting me know the androgens are having their effect already. I am not yet stronger and will post when I get near PR territory.
The Tren has started to work its magic. Last night I had insomnia and couldn't sleep for about three hours from 4 a.m. to 7 a.m. I felt the now very familiar AAS CNS stimulation effect that I have felt so often in the past from SuperDrol and M5AA etc. Same effect but amplified by the injectible form of the steroids I am using. So about 56 hours after my first shots I am noticing the effects pretty clearly. Insomnia like that shouldn't occur for me and prop should make me sleep like a baby. Will bust out the melatonin forthwith if it doesn't improve in a day or two.
This morning was the first morning I noticed increased shedding of hair. Seems its all starting to kick in at once. I have been dosing my Test/Tren mix a little more frequently than first planned and will continue to do so for the remainder of the first week, then will revert back to my original eod plan. Right now I am hitting the 36 hour mark pretty close with my shots.
Libido is definitely up and thankfully my appetite seems pretty well in check. Maybe it is the tren. Good God I hope so. Nothing to report in the way of excess sweating yet. I was quite cool last night. I expect all effects of the Tren including fat loss to manifest themselves by the middle of the second week.
So far I haven't noticed anything resembling puffy, sore or lumpy nipples. They are tighter and harder than usual. Maybe it is the tren and slightly reduced calories, but I am glad I don't have to start dosing Arimidex and Nolva yet, b/c I believe both will cause me even more hair loss from past experience.
05-20-2005, 02:01 PM
Day 5, May 20, 2005
Elliptical 45:00, 715 kcals, 75+ rpm, 165-175 heartbeat
I am going to lay off the cardio for a few days. Knees are giving me some trouble. I should know not to do it three days in a row. I feel great afterwards though.
Rather than yack about it here, I started a discussion in the anaoblics section concerning how I am going to combat hairloss on this short cycle. The link is as follows.
Hair Loss Prevention
05-20-2005, 10:54 PM
It is amazing how different people are affected differently. I would NEVER feel anything from Test prop or Tren after just 2 or 3 shots.
Keep us posted and best of luck.
Sleep Supplement 3Z BCAA: Red Raspberry and Lemon flavors
HGH/sleep enhancer: HGHpro
Test Booster: TestoPRO and STOKED!
Preworkout: MANIAC Fruit Punch and Pink Lemonade
05-21-2005, 09:28 AM
Thanks for checking in Crowler. I always enjoy reading your input on things.
Yep. I am noticing all sorts of side effects after three shots. Had an unexplained headache yesterday (may be nothing), and am definitely noticing a pleasantly reduced appetite from Tren (b/c it darn sure isn't coming from the prop ! ) . Can't wait until I get really noticeable strength gains. That almost always occurs after I have gone through one exercise split when using short acting compounds.
I am not however noticing anything special in the way of muscle pumps. Maybe a little extra but not much. I don't expect whole effect to come in until middle of week 2.
05-21-2005, 05:31 PM
Day 6, May 21, 2005
Conventional Deadlifts 295x3x5, 225x10
GM 135x8, 185x4
Side Bends 2 sets
Weighted Ab Machine 1 set
Started light and easy on the deadlift. My form felt excellent overall and I experienced no pain whatsoever. Good start. I am weak as a kitten on goodmornings though. I had a partial ab cramp after my first set of crunches. This typically happens when I am on anabolics. So I stopped there. I had intended a longer more intense ab workout to finish the day, but it just isn't in the cards this cycle.
For now, I have dropped the Prop out of my arsenal based on feedback from other users and my current shedding problem. I also haven't been having luck with Spiro/AA/Nizoral so far, so I am going to see if this fixes the problem.
I am really hoping to notice a significant strength boost by Monday. Definitely I am still noticing appetite suppression from the Tren. Can't reiterate enough how pleasant that is.
05-21-2005, 09:17 PM
Thanks for the update and am REALLY shocked an thankful for the compliment. I thought nobody knew I existed LOL
I have a few questions and would like to ask them but don't want to screw up your thread so if you like just reply delete and I will just get rid of this post.
I had never heard Tren made the appetite go down. I usually do bulkers and only use Tren and Prop so maybe I should not include the Tren and see if I can eat more. I usaully try to do about 5000 calories which isn't too bad to do but after about 6 weeks it seems tougher to force it down. Perhaps you are right and this is the Tren.
So if I understand you right you are doing Tren only now? I see so many people warn about not doing it cause it kills the libido. I did a 6 week Tren only and it did lower the libido but in your mid 40's you don't have the libido of a 25 year old so it does not make a BIG difference
LOL Just after I posted that I don't get sides after just 3 shots I had a MAJOR headache all day and it was only day 3 of the new Tren Prop cycle. HA I guess I showed myself I was wrong.
Sleep Supplement 3Z BCAA: Red Raspberry and Lemon flavors
HGH/sleep enhancer: HGHpro
Test Booster: TestoPRO and STOKED!
Preworkout: MANIAC Fruit Punch and Pink Lemonade
05-21-2005, 09:28 PM
No need to delete. The more info in here the better. That is one reason (other than to get good feedback) why I make these cycle journals.
I wasn't sure about tren decreasing appetite either. But after a search on a few boards, it seems it does effect some people that way. Quite a few perhaps.
The Tren might or might not effect how you bulk in terms of appetite. If you normally start having problems at 5000 calories, doing without Tren might not even help. And there is a good chance it doesn't effect you like it does me. It could be also just be like you may have thought. Later into the bulk it may just get harder for you to pack in the food. Esp. if you started out pretty darn lean. Leanness would be its own appetite booster.
I reallly grateful that I am experiencing the appetite suppression b/c I normally have quite the appetite. I didn't have any problems averaging close to 8000 kcals on my last bulker a decent bit of the time. On average now I have been maintaining at 5-6k and do have to hold back some.
I think I can stick to 4-4.5k this cycle with no problem and might could go lower even without feeling like I am starved.
05-21-2005, 09:32 PM
Without the Prop, I'll be giving up libido (but not all lose it on tren only it seems) and certainly a good bit of muscle gains. If my plan works, I may go back on the Prop a bit later at a lower dose for just for a shorter part of the cycle. I just don't want to lose too much hair right off the bat. That would make me a little weary about running the cycle as long as I would like (8 weeks would be really cool, but I don't expect to make it that long on account of hair).
05-22-2005, 11:26 AM
This morning I noticed a little pain in both nipples. More on the right side where I had previously had a lump. So I took 40mg nolva this morning and will take a bit more tonight. All feeling should be gone w/in a few days of continued nolva use. I noticed the symptoms much quicker this time and reacted faster overall.
05-22-2005, 09:13 PM
May 22, 2005
Lawn Care 6.5 hours
Didn't do so great on the diet front. Definitely went way too long without anything to eat. Good for fat and water loss, bad for building muscle.
Doing lawn care all day is a heck of a lot different than the type of cardio I do in the gym. Not exactly back breaking stuff but...Elliptical is so much more desirable. I am going to try to stay indoors the next couple of days.
I am sitting here with the remainder of my beef, about 1.5 lbs and am going to chow down.
05-23-2005, 01:43 PM
May 23, 2005Originally Posted by Cardinal
18 work sets
HS High Row 240x9, 250x6, 250x5
Curls 60x7, 55x6, 50x6, 45x6, 40x2x6, 40x9
Lat Pulldowns 200x5
HS Low Row 180x10, 200x9, 220x8
Reverse EZ Bar Curls 90x2x10
Reverse Wrist Curls 30x5, 30x4
Lawn Care 4.5 hours
It's on! It's definitely on!
Exactly like I had hoped, after one full exercise split and 5-7 days I notice obvious strength gains. Were it not for the slight pain in my quad this morning after inject, I couldn't tell the difference between the CNS stimulation provided by 75+mg Tren EOD and a high dose SuperDrol/M5AA (30-40mg/60+mg ED for example) combo. The aggression was there. Speed strength. Joints felt good. Slight muscle cramping in chest as usual. I could have easily trained another hour. Biceps took a beating today. Will feel it tomorrow.
Recovery seems good. Muscles are fairly full. I did this workout after about 3000kcals yesterday and 6.5 hours of moderate lawn care. Insomnia is still going but pretty darn managable. I probably feel some aggression outside the gym, but business is pretty stressful now, so it is tough to say if it is worse than usual. Probably is though.
Only time will tell how Tren fairs compared to the other PH/PS I have used to build strength in the past. All I can say right now is that I am motivated as all hell.
Last edited by Cardinal; 05-23-2005 at 08:33 PM.
05-24-2005, 07:27 PM
May 24, 2005
Lawn Care 8.5 hours
Definitely didn't intend to put in this much time out on the lawns but I needed to, and it should be quite good for fatloss. Will be back in the gym tomorrow.
Last night I felt an incredible amount of aggression. Quite a few thoughts filled with violence/hatred. Had insomnia for about 4 hours. Not very typical for me. I believe it is a combo of the tren and a somewhat stressful business week/month. I felt a lot better later today. Took 25 mg ephedrine to help out with energy throughout the day.
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