Virgin here!

[texasfinest2]

My way of saying thanks for the help!
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/company-promotions/185904-athletix-girls-if-post3569121.html


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[texasfinest2]

For those following my thread here's some awesome research..
Are you sure about that?

Clomid, Nolvadex, and Testosterone Stimulation

Posted on Mar 29, 2002 in Advanced Science
by: William Llewellyn

Editors Note: I am extremely pleased to have Bill Llewellyn contributing an article for us this week. For those who are unaware, he is the author of Anabolics 2000 and Anabolics 2002 and is one of the bodybuilding world’s foremost experts on androgens and anabolics. He is also the President of Molecular Nutrition, one of the most innovative companies in this business. Along with Avant Labs and ErgoPharm, Molecular Nutrition is one of the few companies dedicated to putting forth only those products backed by legitimate research, rather than excessive hype and other such B.S. Two products, in particular, that deserve to be more well-known are Viritase, a potent anti-estrogen, and Boldione, a boldenone precursor. To find out more about these, and the rest of their products, I reccomend that you head over to their website — but only after you have finsished reading big Mf’r and spent all of your money on our products, of course

Now, on to the article:
Introduction

I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use (in the bodybuilding world anyway); as an anti-estrogen, an HDL (good) cholesterol-supporting drug, and as a testosterone-stimulating compound. Most people use Nolvadex to combat gynecomastia over Clomid anyway, so that is an easy sell. And for cholesterol, well, most bodybuilders unfortunately pay little attention to this important issue, so by way of disinterest, another easy opinion to discuss. But when it comes to using Nolvadex for increasing endogenous testosterone release, bodybuilders just do not want to hear it. They only seem to want Clomid. I can only guess that this is based on a long rooted misunderstanding of the actions of the two drugs. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the specifics for these two agents, and explain clearly the usefulness of Nolvadex for the specific purpose of increasing testosterone production.
Clomid and Nolvadex

I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.

Studies conducted in the late 1970′s at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.
Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH

But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won’t increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.
The Estrogen Clomid

The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers’ clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, “The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment”. In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that,” …a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation”.

Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2). This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of LH from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.
Conclusion

To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary

[texasfinest2]

I found this post from David Dunn

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[superbeast668]

Thats a great article. Ive read that a few times now and always seem to retain more every time i read it. His book "anabolics" has some great info in it as well if you got some spare cash and a few minutes to read.

[texasfinest2]

Sounds good! I'll see if it's on an ebook...


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[superbeast668]

Sounds good! I'll see if it's on an ebook...

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Definitely is on kindle.

[texasfinest2]

You will want adex on cycle. Exemestane (aromasin) in pct. The reason is adex doesn't work with nolva. The chemically fight over the same receptors/enzymes. So exemestane is used instead. Adex is fast acting and is easy to dose. Exemestane is also superior to adex when it comes to stimulation of LH and FSH in pct. Combined with a SERM it is a sure fast road to recovery. It is also shown to raise IGF-1 levels as well.

Okay I wanna make sure I grasp this correctly... Run adex on cycle until my pct.. Then exemestane with Nolvadex pct... At first I was all about clomid until I read the article I posted.. I don't like the potential sides of vision loss.. Seeing how I wear contacts already.. And I don't wanna be super emotional.. Lol not only that but Nolvadex looks to be superior....

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[superbeast668]

Okay I wanna make sure I grasp this correctly... Run adex on cycle until my pct.. Then exemestane with Nolvadex pct... At first I was all about clomid until I read the article I posted.. I don't like the potential sides of vision loss.. Seeing how I wear contacts already.. And I don't wanna be super emotional.. Lol not only that but Nolvadex looks to be superior....

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Thatll do just fine.

[texasfinest2]

Definitely is on kindle.

Haha! Dl'd to my Kindle phone only 10$! Super excited to read!

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[texasfinest2]

An update... I have adjusted my first cycle a bit after some research. I'm only running test e. No dbol or anything else on my first go around. I have the test on hand and my tamoxifen citrate. Waiting on my pins to be delivered and then it's on!

[texasfinest2]

Alright so I broke my cherry last night!
I'm On test e 300mgs. I pinned w/ a 22g 1.5. Honestly I didn't feel a thing! Now I pinned last night and this morning I barely feel any pip. I'll be pinning 2x a week for 10 weeks. I have enough gear to extend to 15 weeks if need be.
I decided to only run the test e just to experience how my body reacts to it alone. So ill post some recent b4s.

Stats as of today are :
194lbs @12%bf
31yrs old
3yrs training
Calories will be upwards of 4000 a day
I started this log so I can learn about what I'm doing, and also so other first timers can learn as well. I'll be updating weekly. Sometimes more. I'm logging on another forum as well.
I got tamoxifen citrate on hand from purus labs, and lecheek nutrition pct as well. Good multi vitamin. I'm waiting on my ai. With my low bf I'm not expecting any gyno at this stage. Please follow me and comment. I'm here to learn brothers!


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[texasfinest2]

Pretty sure I hit the right spot

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[texasfinest2]

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[texasfinest2]

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[Lukef2000]

I've tried replying to this three damn times but for some reason AM won't let my posts go through. Good luck bro I'm in. Looks like the others that chimed in had you on the right path.

[texasfinest2]

For sure.. There's some really cool dudes in here that take their time with the learning impared such as myself! Lol..
Its funny how your plans change. I had this huge cycle planned for the spring, which I may still do, but i wanted to run the test by itself first. Get a good feel for it!

Okay so it's been about 36 hours since my first injection and my pip is barely there. Must of done it the right way.
Next injection will be Tuesday afternoon after work.. So I'm hitting it sat and Tues. Should I push it to wed?

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[Sean1332]

I saw "Virgin" and that the thread had pictures.

I'm sincerely disappointed there was no vagina

[Vegastex]

I love the article on Clomid I purchased Nolvadex for my Pct then I was told I needed Clomid, so I have been scrambling to get an order in so I been trying to find what I will do for my next cycle since they charge $29.00 for shipping, I wanted to order all at once. I have three more weeks left of my testosterone cypionate cycle @ 500 mg a week pin twice a week @ 250 mg. This has been a great first cycle for me. Can anyone recommend a good cycle for my next adventure.

[texasfinest2]

I'm pretty sure All you need is nolva on a test c only cycle. I think clomid is better for Tren. From what I read clomid can be quite harsh.

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[Vegastex]

I heard the same thing about Clomid. Thanks for reply. I read before I started my cycle Nolvadex works great then my buddy at the gym said I needed Clomid to get my balls working again, needless to say kinda scared me don't want to lose the girl friend. I'm getting ready to order for my next cycle this spring, now I have some experience under my belt I'm going to make sure i do all my home work and have all the right gear.