Cycle advice wanted

[ARNOLD85]

Weeks 1-6
Oral turinabol (2100mg)
50mg a day

Weeks 1-8
Test cypionate(2,800mg)
200mg every 4 days for
(14 injections of 200mg)

Weeks 8-9
HCG (7000 iu)
Nolvadex (280mg)
500iu a day for 2 weeks
In conjunction with 20 mg a day of nolvadex

PCT weeks 11-13
clomid (1200mg)
nolvodex (240mg)
Day 1 - Clomid 200mg + Nolvadex 40mg
Following 10 days - Clomid 50mg + Nolvadex 20mg
Following 10 days - Clomid 50mg

Open to advice and opinions

[Yaz]

- Many wrongs with your plan, duration, administration, no HCG during PCT.

Do it like this:

Weeks 1-10/12 --> Test Cyp. 400-500mg/week (2 inj weekly,every 3,5 days)
Weeks 1-6 --> T-bol 30-60mg ED
Weeks 1-12/14 --> Arimidex 0,50-1mg EOD OR Aromasin 12,5-25mg ED


2 weeks after last injection (12 days actually) start PCT

Weeks 1-4 --> Clomid 100 | 50 | 50 | 25mg ED
Weeks 1-4 --> Nolva 40 | 20 | 20 | 10mg ED

[ssbackwards]

yaz i personally love my hCG during PCT!!!

also this next pct im dosing will be pretty nuts since blasting and cruising for a while..

i also dont agree wityh your PCT start time i start mine about 5-7 days after last shot because i taper down dose all the way to 125mg so my bodies hormones meet up with the dose im taking allways works well.

OP id taper dose last week of shot start hCG and run it for 2 weeks then start PCT 5-7 days after last shot.

some people have problkems on nolva with libido, i do nolva 3x a week and clomid every day and a 6 week PCT

[Yaz]

- HCG has nothing to do with PCT whatsoever even the most knowledgeable guys recommend it without even knowing how it works ( simple google search away) - it does nothing to restart the gonadotropins it just mimics LH, simply in PCT just suppressing the HPTA even more. Using HCG is like using AAS when it comes to the body's response, it just thinks it has the hormones so it doesn't bother to produce them.
- Pyramiding is a very 80-90s protocol, quite wrong actually.
- FYI the PCT starts depending on how much time the specific drugs need to clear out from the system (it's all about the half life).
- Nolva mg per mg is severely stronger than Clomid, in most boards 95% of american guys thing otherwise (a couple of studies comparing them)
- Also the administration of each drug is specific, there's no "fix" for anything it all depends on their half life.

[ssbackwards]

- HCG has nothing to do with PCT whatsoever even the most knowledgeable guys recommend it without even knowing how it works ( simple google search away) - it does nothing to restart the gonadotropins it just mimics LH, simply in PCT just suppressing the HPTA even more. Using HCG is like using AAS when it comes to the body's response, it just thinks it has the hormones so it doesn't bother to produce them.
- Pyramiding is a very 80-90s protocol, quite wrong actually.
- FYI the PCT starts depending on how much time the specific drugs need to clear out from the system (it's all about the half life).
- Nolva mg per mg is severely stronger than Clomid, in most boards 95% of american guys thing otherwise (a couple of studies comparing them)
- Also the administration of each drug is specific, there's no "fix" for anything it all depends on their half life.

you suggest i assume 2x a week shot for more stable bloods also.

i suggest you read abook called anabolic pharmacology actually a great read, tapering actually is a great idea, yes very 80s-90s approach but works extremely well.

yes i know how drug esters work and half life etc, but if your last shot (as i suggested after a taper is 125mg) you would be starting your serm right around the time you start to fel pretty damn ****ty.

nolva is 2x stronger then nolva but they both work different ways. that you should know. clomid IME is much better for libido (with a tiny mild AI) and recommended more for fertility purposes. MOA differ slightly.


mimics LH your right, but 5-6 shots depending on the dose is not going to shut you down, but you will definetly know if your body still responds to the administration of it therefore youll know if recovery will be easier or harder.

and when your administering it during that time (you argues before halflife) your still within the time frame of the gear.

[Yaz]

you suggest i assume 2x a week shot for more stable bloods also.

i suggest you read abook called anabolic pharmacology actually a great read, tapering actually is a great idea, yes very 80s-90s approach but works extremely well.

yes i know how drug esters work and half life etc, but if your last shot (as i suggested after a taper is 125mg) you would be starting your serm right around the time you start to fel pretty damn ****ty.

nolva is 2x stronger then nolva but they both work different ways. that you should know. clomid IME is much better for libido (with a tiny mild AI) and recommended more for fertility purposes. MOA differ slightly.


mimics LH your right, but 5-6 shots depending on the dose is not going to shut you down, but you will definetly know if your body still responds to the administration of it therefore youll know if recovery will be easier or harder.

and when your administering it during that time (you argues before halflife) your still within the time frame of the gear.

- When it comes to enth/cyp/und yes.
- Extremely well ? Seriously ? The longer you are on the less responsive you'll be(also after 8-9 weeks of use myostatin start building up), so comparing finishing the cycle in a constant dose with finishing on a lower dose - no don't see what you mean extremely well at all. If you feel that it will "help" the HPTA in any way, you are false also. Taper up/down in comparison to constant dose it's just way weaker - period.
- I have no idea what you said but AGAIN administration protocol doesn't go with "feeling" but with numbers - you start PCT when drugs clear out period no buts(it's like some ignorant guys that don't do after cycle bloodwork because they "feel" they recovered).
- They do have some differences indeed in their mechanism of action but these 2 drugs are the best especially when they work synergistically as far as PCT goes.
- It makes a world of difference using HCG IN cycle with using it during PCT - in cycle it absolutely helps with the recovery, during PCT( = SERMs) it pretty much destroys the whole meaning of it, simply extends the shutdown.
- Not trying do be a smartass by no means, but please try to write with more proper grammar because i'm having some trouble figure some things out.

[ssbackwards]

- When it comes to enth/cyp/und yes.
- Extremely well ? Seriously ? The longer you are on the less responsive you'll be(also after 8-9 weeks of use myostatin start building up), so comparing finishing the cycle in a constant dose with finishing on a lower dose - no don't see what you mean extremely well at all. If you feel that it will "help" the HPTA in any way, you are false also. Taper up/down in comparison to constant dose it's just way weaker - period.
- I have no idea what you said but AGAIN administration protocol doesn't go with "feeling" but with numbers - you start PCT when drugs clear out period no buts(it's like some ignorant guys that don't do after cycle bloodwork because they "feel" they recovered).
- They do have some differences indeed in their mechanism of action but these 2 drugs are the best especially when they work synergistically as far as PCT goes.
- It makes a world of difference using HCG IN cycle with using it during PCT - in cycle it absolutely helps with the recovery, during PCT( = SERMs) it pretty much destroys the whole meaning of it, simply extends the shutdown.
- Not trying do be a smartass by no means, but please try to write with more proper grammar because i'm having some trouble figure some things out.

grammer , not my strong suit

when on theres never absolute shut down its just the degree at which it happens. with that said, as you lower the dose endogenous hormones begin to rise naturally in relation to the lower dose of hormones as stated again in anabolic pharmacology.

thus tapering the dose down sets you up for an easier recovery. Seth Roberts has a huge thread on this forum somewhere, i wish i could find it and show you so you can see more science behind it because it was a huge discussion.

I would used hCG in BOTH pct and during cycle. I use it during cycle if the cycle exceeds 4 months, otherwise i use it strictly PCT 1 week during the last hormone administration, and then during that "washout", but like i said 125mg of test is my last shot. that near normal levels after 5-7 days they drop (when a hrt person would start to feel ****ty and then administer next dose due to lower hormones) this is when i administer nolva/clomid.

I understand the reason why people wont use it PCT, i also understand the reason during cycle. What most people dont understand is desensitation of testis, along with lesions it causes in the leydig cells (mainly can disregard if you use your AI or nolva with dosing though).

Theres always been headbutts on during or PCT, ive used both, and i like it in PCT. I feel like it primes my body for recovery. Over use i can see it causing much more damage but we are talking 5-6 shots of it while still technically being on bc its that "washout" period so your technically still shut down anyway.

[Yaz]

grammer , not my strong suit

when on theres never absolute shut down its just the degree at which it happens. with that said, as you lower the dose endogenous hormones begin to rise naturally in relation to the lower dose of hormones as stated again in anabolic pharmacology.

thus tapering the dose down sets you up for an easier recovery. Seth Roberts has a huge thread on this forum somewhere, i wish i could find it and show you so you can see more science behind it because it was a huge discussion.

I would used hCG in BOTH pct and during cycle. I use it during cycle if the cycle exceeds 4 months, otherwise i use it strictly PCT 1 week during the last hormone administration, and then during that "washout", but like i said 125mg of test is my last shot. that near normal levels after 5-7 days they drop (when a hrt person would start to feel ****ty and then administer next dose due to lower hormones) this is when i administer nolva/clomid.

I understand the reason why people wont use it PCT, i also understand the reason during cycle. What most people dont understand is desensitation of testis, along with lesions it causes in the leydig cells (mainly can disregard if you use your AI or nolva with dosing though).

Theres always been headbutts on during or PCT, ive used both, and i like it in PCT. I feel like it primes my body for recovery. Over use i can see it causing much more damage but we are talking 5-6 shots of it while still technically being on bc its that "washout" period so your technically still shut down anyway.

- No not really, as long you have active drugs o nyour system, the body won't bother to restart gonadotropin production.
- Wrong i have already stated why, it's pretty simple logic actually (only during and in cycle that fit specific circumstances, cuz HCG unlike most people know it has it's own risks).
- Didn't udnerstand the next one.
- Again what someone feels in this case is irrelevant, HCG does not stimulate the gonadotropins just mimics LH, restarting their production that's what SERMs do - period.

Sorry but i feel like i'm repeating myself ....

[ssbackwards]

you are but so am i , its ALL layed out in the book, the body will start to produce hormones as exogeneous levels fall below levels that will produce normal levels,

i believe his reference for that is this....

"pharmakinetics and pharmodynamics of nandrolone esters in oil vehicle; effects of ester injectionsite and injection volume"

Theres conflicting data on hCG use in scientific literature as well in terms of how much.

Its a mute point, its up to user to see whats best for him, people have certainly used it both ways.

[ssbackwards]

this is from dr D

I am happy to see that hCG was one of the first discussion points. Oftentimes the quintessential concern is centered on peripheral side effects (i.e. - gyno, hair loss, lipids, blood pressure, et al...) at the expense of the most serious central side effect, hypothalamic-pituitary-dysfunction. hCG does play quintessential role here as the most tried and true (not the only). To answer your questions...




The two prototypical regimens I might employ therapeutically are one with low dose (as little as 300-500 IU daily) used throughout the cycle and/or higher dose (1000-as much as 5000 IU three times per week) if simply initiated in PCT. I would continue hCG in the case of the low-dose peri-cycle protcol; especially for the guy who still wants children. Even with on-cycle use; we have noted an average decline in sperm count that approaches literature values still at 22 months in some people (the subfertile state thought to be direct result in attenuation of testosterone). Still, there are dose- and time-dependency factors that will come into play here as well.

Again, some may not like my sperm count offering as they may certainly not care about fertility status, but it is a reflective number to approximate how long the HPGA may remain compromised, and given the dearth of research alloted in this subject area, it is the way we can translate that which has, in fact, been looked at.




Yes; dependent upon duration of the cycle and relative HPGA dysfunction (as alluded to above). There is negative feedback at the level of the hypothalamus to shut down GnRH and subsequently LH (and FSH), which will be inherently dependent upon the degree of shutdown. If you look at doses and ways used (daily versus three times per week); this focuses on how to best bring back the HPGA in my experience over the last few years with select patients and likely reflects the doses able to best keep negative feedback at bay.



D_

[ARNOLD85]

Made some revisions on the original post, any opinions?

Weeks 1-6
Oral turinabol (2100mg)
50mg a day

Weeks 1-8
Test cypionate(2,800mg)
200mg every 4 days for
(14 injections of 200mg)

Weeks 8,9
HCG (7500 iu)
Nolvadex (420mg)
1500iu every 3 days (5 injections)
In conjunction with nolvadex

Weeks 8,9,10,11
Nolvadex (600mg) once daily
Week 1 40mg a day
Week 2 20 mg a day
Week 3 10 mg a day
Week 4 10 mg a day (+ 4 days)

weeks 11,12,13
clomid (950mg) once daily
Day 1 - Clomid 200mg + Nolvadex 10mg
Following 10 days - Clomid 50mg + Nolvadex 10mg
Following 10 days - Clomid 25mg

[ARNOLD85]

This is also my first cycle in 7 years and only the second cycle of my life, I did a cycle of deca in 2004. I'm beginning to think I'm getting over excited with research and expanding my cycle to larger proportions than necessary.

[ssbackwards]

Made some revisions on the original post, any opinions?

Weeks 1-6
Oral turinabol (2100mg)
50mg a day

Weeks 1-8
Test cypionate(2,800mg)
200mg every 4 days for
(14 injections of 200mg)

Weeks 8,9
HCG (7500 iu)
Nolvadex (420mg)
1500iu every 3 days (5 injections)
In conjunction with nolvadex

Weeks 8,9,10,11
Nolvadex (600mg) once daily
Week 1 40mg a day
Week 2 20 mg a day
Week 3 10 mg a day
Week 4 10 mg a day (+ 4 days)

weeks 11,12,13
clomid (950mg) once daily
Day 1 - Clomid 200mg + Nolvadex 10mg
Following 10 days - Clomid 50mg + Nolvadex 10mg
Following 10 days - Clomid 25mg

id start PCT last injection of hCG

also id only do 2 shots at 1500, then do one at 1000 then 2 at 500, thats 5000 iu, yoiu have 7500 if you wan to do that amount i dont see anything wrong with how you set it up just take a mild AI with the dose due to aromatization and keep leydig cells protected.

if i were to start with a one SERM for PCT id use Clomid then add nolva at the end due to its estrone suliphate lowering abilities

[ARNOLD85]

More revisions, I'm keeping a week between the HCG and PCT to avoid the half life of the HCG interfering with the PCT.

Weeks 1-6
Oral turinabol (2100mg)
50mg a day

Weeks 1-8
Test cypionate(2,800mg)
200mg every 4 days for
(14 injections of 200mg)

Weeks 1-10
Arimidex(35mg)
1mg every other day

Weeks 7,8
HCG (5000) pin every 3 days
2 at 1500 iu
1 at 1000 iu
2 at 500 iu

weeks 10,11,12,13
clomid (950mg) once daily
Nolvodex(600 mg)
Day 1 - Clomid 200mg + Nolvadex 40mg
Following 10 days - Clomid 50mg + Nolvadex 30mg
Following 10 days - Clomid 25mg Nolvadex 20mg
Following 7 days - Clomid 25mg Nolvadex 10mg

The more research I do the more I feel that the HCG is excessive and possibly unnecessary, any opinions?

[kanakafarian]

Are you cutting your test cyp to only 8 weeks because you don't have enough? You really won't feel it working till around the 3rd week so it would be a shame to run such a short cycle. 10-12 weeks @500mg would be much more beneficial if it's muscle you're looking to gain.

[ARNOLD85]

I am only doing 8 weeks of the TC because I am stacking it with T-Bol and arimidex then wrapping the cycle up with HCG.