F e e d b a c k ? -- First Post. Second Cycle. Mixed and Matched my own plan. Uh, oh.

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    F e e d b a c k ? -- First Post. Second Cycle. Mixed and Matched my own plan. Uh, oh.


    Long time lurker. First post.

    Second cycle for a PH, the first was phera three years ago, with some OTC PCT. Not a bad experience, but not awesome, mostly due to crap diet.

    This time I'm looking to run a 4 week bulk and 4 week PCT.

    Currently - 35yo, 5'10'', 180lb, under 10% BF with calipers (8% hydrostatic, but always seems to low).
    Blood Panel - Test Total - 865, Test Free - 100, Estradiol - 53, IGF-1 - 225
    Goal - 8-to-10lb of lean mass in 1 month w/minimal fat gain, but I'll risk some to gain the lean.

    Approach:

    Diet: is a "Franken-diet" of sorts - LG, CKG, and Paleo - stay with me here cause this is silly, but should work for my body type based on experience:
    - Mon-Fri - LG protocol (2pm - 10pm feed) - 1200 cal surplus daily M-F
    -- (staples will be: chicken breast, broccoli, lean grass fed ground beef, whey, casein, and vitagro)
    - Saturday - Strict Paleo - no calorie goal
    - Sunday - Cheat Day heavy on Carbs (CKG)
    Rationale behind this diet: LG is easiest to adhere to mon-fri given work, and grains (even complex) historically add fat right to my mid section, so looking to get carbs during the weekdays from veggies, some low cal thinwhich buns, and vitagro. Paleo Saturday is to allow some freedom in the diet, but still force a restriction in the grainy carbs which lead to that midsection bulk without fail. Sunday cheat day is relief for adherence, and also to make-up for lost carbs - ala CKG. For my history, my maintenance mode is M-F LG with a 1000 cal daily *deficit* with a Fri night - Sunday Night cheat. I eat everything...

    Anabolics:
    - HGH - 10iu nightly pin (I know should be saved for a cut, but have it and don't think it'll hurt)
    - Btw - if the 1month's worth of HGH PowerPatches arrive in time I'll throw them on too...
    - Halodrol (80mg daily)
    - Max LMG (115mg daily)
    - Prostanozol (150mg daily)
    - Superdrol (10mg daily)
    PCT:
    - HCG .500ml weekly
    - Clomiphene (25mg daily)
    - Anastrazole (.5mg 2x week)
    - OTC PCT (ATD, 40mg daily & NAC, milk thistle, etc.)



    All that for two questions:
    1. Feedback on the approach?
    2. Any interest in seeing a log on this? Never done one, but would be willing...even if folks are thinking the above is a train wreck and just want to see what happens. I’ve logged my cals in v. cals out, macros, and weight, and BF for about 3 years – so happy to document and share.

    And last point - thanks for reading. Open to feedback, and looking to start this next Monday. But I'm keeping an open mind to what I hear from ya'll, and hoping for the same. Even though I've not posted, I've appreciated the candid, but constructive, feedback that I've seen folks give on this board over the years.

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    Everything looks great man but i'm surprised there is no test in here....

    I won't lie I don't know much about test but maybe there is a quick acting test that you could throw in along side....

    if that's not an option you might want to try adding in transaderm....it's a topical supplement that acts like a test base while on cycle, I think it'd be a great addition.

    You should definitely log this with before and afters
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkHalf View Post
    Everything looks great man but i'm surprised there is no test in here....

    I won't lie I don't know much about test but maybe there is a quick acting test that you could throw in along side....

    if that's not an option you might want to try adding in transaderm....it's a topical supplement that acts like a test base while on cycle, I think it'd be a great addition.

    You should definitely log this with before and afters
    thanks man! I've got some test cyp from hrt that I could use. Always results in horrible bacne though, and seems like it might not take effect until after the cycle at this point. But why not. I haven't researched it too much but what dosage would you recommend?
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    drop the superdrol or halo bro, you already have enough orals in there. IMO drop the halo, on a 4wk cycle its kinda pointless cuz it take 15days to really show effects. The SD will begin working after 6-8 days.

    Last cut the HGH dose to 3IU's and run it 3.5 months instead of 4wks. 4wks is a waste, wayyyy to short on time to really have it be useful
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    Quote Originally Posted by commodore64 View Post
    thanks man! I've got some test cyp from hrt that I could use. Always results in horrible bacne though, and seems like it might not take effect until after the cycle at this point. But why not. I haven't researched it too much but what dosage would you recommend?
    Typically, orals are used to kickstart a test cycle or ran right in the beginning of a test cycle. Basically you can let the orals do their thing while you're waiting for the test to kick in. After you drop the orals, the test should help solidify the gains you got from the orals.

    As far as dosages go I don't know enough about test to recommend. Mainly due to wanting to wait about another 10 years to start test. Once I go on, I'm not coming off and I'm young enough now that I really don't need it. You could just run the dose that was prescribed from your doctor for 8-12 weeks (and run the orals for the first 4 weeks of the cycle).

    Quote Originally Posted by gymrat827 View Post
    drop the superdrol or halo bro, you already have enough orals in there. IMO drop the halo, on a 4wk cycle its kinda pointless cuz it take 15days to really show effects. The SD will begin working after 6-8 days.

    Last cut the HGH dose to 3IU's and run it 3.5 months instead of 4wks. 4wks is a waste, wayyyy to short on time to really have it be useful
    Yeah I agree with the halo recommendation. If you want to run it, run it for 6 weeks.

    Same thing with the HGH recommendation. I think that's much more practical and will last you MUCH longer and not burn a hole in your friggin wallet.
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    test c, 400mg for at least 8-9wks at the min.... if you dont have enough to run that dose/duration save it til you can get more.


    If you can find some prop 100mg EOD for 6wks min, otherwise a bottle of Transderm would help provide a test base
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    Quote Originally Posted by gymrat827 View Post
    drop the superdrol or halo bro, you already have enough orals in there. IMO drop the halo, on a 4wk cycle its kinda pointless cuz it take 15days to really show effects. The SD will begin working after 6-8 days.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkHalf View Post
    Yeah I agree with the halo recommendation. If you want to run it, run it for 6 weeks.
    Okay, I’ll start the halo sooner (already started it last week day after posting this, so much for patience…) and that’ll give me about 6 weeks. The SDrol is part of a blended cap of 60, that includes the Max LMG and some additional HDrol (it’s a odd concoction I admit), and so I’ll probably run them both so I can run the Max in here too.

    Quote Originally Posted by gymrat827 View Post
    Last cut the HGH dose to 3IU's and run it 3.5 months instead of 4wks. 4wks is a waste, wayyyy to short on time to really have it be useful
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkHalf View Post
    Same thing with the HGH recommendation. I think that's much more practical and will last you MUCH longer and not burn a hole in your friggin wallet.
    I’ve actually been on a steady HGH due to hrt, so I’ll run it high, with the PowerPatch, and we’ll see – not too worried about my wallet given the already accounted for cost of the hrt to-date.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkHalf View Post
    Typically, orals are used to kickstart a test cycle or ran right in the beginning of a test cycle. Basically you can let the orals do their thing while you're waiting for the test to kick in. After you drop the orals, the test should help solidify the gains you got from the orals.
    Quote Originally Posted by gymrat827 View Post
    test c, 400mg for at least 8-9wks at the min.... if you dont have enough to run that dose/duration save it til you can get more.
    Quote Originally Posted by gymrat827 View Post
    If you can find some prop 100mg EOD for 6wks min, otherwise a bottle of Transderm would help provide a test base
    I have enough cyp to hit the recommendation above, not sure I want to run it. No joke about how bad the effects were with the bacne. Might be heading for the same with the orals. We’ll see. But it was a real mess, took 3 months to clear. That’s why I don’t use it as part of hrt. But my test levels are pretty high with the HGH alone (between 800 and 1000, free is lower than I’d like though) and I run addin some items from diet that promotes high test (supposedly), so will give that a shot (grass fed beef before bed, brazil nuts, etc). No access to prop…

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkHalf View Post
    As far as dosages go I don't know enough about test to recommend. Mainly due to wanting to wait about another 10 years to start test. Once I go on, I'm not coming off and I'm young enough now that I really don't need it. You could just run the dose that was prescribed from your doctor for 8-12 weeks (and run the orals for the first 4 weeks of the cycle).
    Ah, makes sense, thanks for sharing what you’ve learned on this though…

    Both of ya’ll – thanks for the advice here, I’ve made the changes above, will keep records, and share what happens. And probably nutty records too – for example:

    I just recorded my baseline:
    1. Got a blood test this AM – waiting on results
    2. Measured Weight – 180.2
    3. Measured Body Fat – 8.2% (caliper method)
    4. Measured Chest, Arm, Waist – 44, 16.5, 32.7
    5. Did an ultrasound scan and have a recorded image of waist fat and bicep muscle density – (these are images, I can post at some point, but looks like…well…an ultrasound).

    I’ll do 1 again at the end of the cycle. I’ll do 2 and 5 at the end of each week. I’ll take pics weekly, front and back. And I’ll record food logs mon-fri.

    Thanks again – fun to post and get to bounce thoughts off you folks after lurking for so long.
    Last edited by commodore64; 09-24-2011 at 01:36 AM. Reason: typos. I spell like english is a second language.
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    Sounds good man. You're taking a more meticulous approach then most do. Reps.

    And if you're worried about bacne - **** has a few acne products - Acnetame and N2-Clear
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    thanks!

    So, I started today.

    I had a nutritionist look at my diet. I was skeptical because I figured I have a pretty good working knowledge, and wasn't expecting her to be impressed or up-to-speed with the whole Lean Gains/IF, CKD, and Paleo...but she was open minded. She'd never heard of IF, but didn't scrutinize it too hard. She did remind me of some clean carb options for a high carb Saturday, and some good sources of lean beef locally.

    So, last night I cooked 11lbs of chicken breast and have 4lbs of grass fed beef for my Mon-Fri diet, and am 7 days into HD50 w/ the HGH coming in from shots, patch, and spray.

    Updated approach below:

    Approach:

    Diet: is a "Franken-diet" of sorts - LG and CKG.
    - Mon-Fri - LG protocol (2pm - 10pm feed) - 1200 cal surplus daily M-F
    -- (staples will be: chicken breast, broccoli, lean grass fed ground beef, whey, casein, and vitagro)
    - Saturday – high carb day, clean carbs, protein every meal (Ezekiel bread, oats, brown rice, quinoa, apples, plums, berries), beef, chicken, and whey
    - Sunday – Same as Saturday with a 2:30hr Cheat “window” which will also be heavy on Carbs
    Rationale behind this diet: LG is easiest to adhere to mon-fri given work, and grains (even complex) historically add fat right to my mid section, so looking to get carbs during the weekdays from veggies, some low cal thinwhich buns, and vitagro. Saturday is high-carb, but clean carbs to allow some freedom in the diet, but still force a restriction in the grainy carbs which lead to that midsection bulk without fail. Sunday cheat isn't a full day anymore but I get a 2:30 hour cheat windows - this is relief for adherence, and also to make-up for lost carbs . For my history, my maintenance mode is M-F LG with a 1000 cal daily *deficit* with a Fri night - Sunday Night cheat. I eat everything...

    Anabolics:
    - HGH - 10iu nightly pin (I know should be saved for a cut, but have it and don't think it'll hurt)
    - HGH PowerPatches
    - Secretropin HGH, 6 sprays nightly
    - test cyponate 200mg/weekly (6 weeks)
    - Halodrol (80mg daily) (6 weeks)
    - Max LMG (115mg daily) (4 weeks)
    - Prostanozol (150mg daily) (4 weeks)
    - Superdrol (10mg daily) (4 weeks)

    PCT:
    - HCG .500ml weekly (Monday)
    - Clomiphene (25mg daily)
    - Anastrazole (.5mg 2x week)
    - OTC PCT (ATD, 40mg daily & NAC, milk thistle, etc.)

    Attached is a pic of the Monday-Friday Diet plan for those interested.

    Also – for a workout plan, I’ll be doing a FST-7 style program, taking off days only when I’m to sore in my torn rotator cuffs…and no lower body due to a slipped disc. Yeah, I’m an injured wreck

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    Last edited by commodore64; 09-28-2011 at 02:49 AM. Reason: added test to the cycle, and edited the saturday/Sunday diet based on nutritionist's feedback.
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    looking good man
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkHalf View Post
    Sounds good man. You're taking a more meticulous approach then most do. Reps.

    And if you're worried about bacne - **** has a few acne products - Acnetame and N2-Clear
    N2 clear + benzoyl peroxide face wash and a scrub brush so you can get your back well with take care of acne. Also wash your bed sheets every 5 days and your pillow cases every other day.


    The test will be well worth it IMO
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    okay, ya'll sold me. Added test - 200mg/wk. I know not the recommended dosage, but sticking to the hrt rxed dose.

    I will say, I'm already feeling strong as hell, and I'm guessing it's just the hd50 and the extra calories kicking in at this point. This should be fun...

    Oh, and since I mentioned it, here's the starting point of an ultrasound of my waist fat and biceps muscle density. This, along with a good ol' fashioned tape measure, is just another way to gut check the progress I "feel" with fact. And while the tape measure is good, I can't psuedo flex out an extra quarter inch with the ultrasound...

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    Quote Originally Posted by gymrat827 View Post
    N2 clear + benzoyl peroxide face wash and a scrub brush so you can get your back well with take care of acne. Also wash your bed sheets every 5 days and your pillow cases every other day.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkHalf View Post
    And if you're worried about bacne - **** has a few acne products - Acnetame and N2-Clear
    Okay - just gonna do what ya'll say. I'm washing the sheets. Ordering the N2-Clear over the weekend. Thanks for these tips. I really do end up looking like I’m hatching aliens out my back when on test, and I’ve tried prescription antibiotics, proactive, etc…but not the combo’s above. So lets see.

    Quick update: I'm pretty bummed out, the baseline blood test came back and all my levels have gone down quite a bit since the last blood test 3 months ago:

    Blood Panel - Test Total - 342 (was 865), Test Free - 35.7 (was 100), Estradiol - 20 (was 53), IGF-1 - 187 (was 225)

    I'll do another test in 4 weeks and see what this cycle + test has put me.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkHalf View Post
    You're taking a more meticulous approach then most do. Reps.
    Appreciate that, just notice the reps. Awesome! Thanks all.
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    I didn't set this up as a log, and not sure I should, but I thought I'd provide an update anyway...

    After 1 week (Friday 23 Sep - Friday 30 Sep) here are the results:

    • Average Calorie Surplus - 800 per day
    • Body Fat - 8.4 (down .1) Arm - 16.6 (up about .1 inches)
    • Chest - 44.25 (up .25 inches)
    • Waist - 32.5 (down(?!) .2 inches)
    • Weight - 185 (up 5 lbs)



    So nothing amazing, but good progress. But after a pretty bad cheat weekend, and now 1 day into week 2, I feel like the BF this week is going to tell a different story. But I do feel pretty strong. We'll see what the results say at the end of this week. I have pics from last week, but compared to week 1, you really can't notice any change.

    I did do another ultrasound scan, and you can see the increased thickness on the biceps, so that backs up that I didn't just "flex out" that extra .1 inch .

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    if your at day 8 your close to starting to see all the gains come in. By day 11-12 things will begin to pickup everyday with all the stuff your running. if your up 5lb dont worry about picking up an inch around your waist, you will even out shortly.

    I would also consider running the hgh during pct and as a bridge into your next cycle...it would help keeping the gains and keeping down your BF
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    Keep up the good work man....how's your strength progressing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by gymrat827 View Post
    if your at day 8 your close to starting to see all the gains come in. By day 11-12 things will begin to pickup everyday with all the stuff your running. if your up 5lb dont worry about picking up an inch around your waist, you will even out shortly.
    Thanks – good to know what to expect. I’m at day 15 on the halodrol clone, and day 9 on everything else. So today/thurs/fri should be interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkHalf View Post
    Keep up the good work man....how's your strength progressing?
    It’s good. Not crazy strong. But I feel strong. For lifts where I’m already pretty strong, like bench, I’m about the same. For example, the max I do is about 120lb dumbbells on flat bench. And that’s where I’m at. I’ve done more before, but I’ve always been a lot fatter when I did. For lifts that I’m weak, like close grip bench for tris, which I’ve avoided for years, my strength has gone waaay up real fast. Could be the supps and the bulk, or could just be I’m finally getting used to the movement. We’ll see over the next few days.


    Quote Originally Posted by gymrat827 View Post
    I would also consider running the hgh during pct and as a bridge into your next cycle...it would help keeping the gains and keeping down your BF
    Will do.
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    nice log. any pro/cons on this stuff?
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    pro - maybe too early to tell, but definitely feel stronger, already looking bigger (and getting comments of the same from friend and my gf) no major side effects accept for mild acne (which I thought would be worse).

    cons - this isn't cheap, but I've spent more on other stuff in life that returned less.

    This Friday will be two weeks in, so it'll be interesting to see what the tale of tape, scale, and bodyfat tell me tomorrow AM.
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    Another update:

    After 2 weeks (Friday 23 Sep - Friday 7 Oct) here are the results:
    •Average Calorie Surplus - 694 per day
    •Body Fat - 8.5 (even!)
    •Arm - 17.1 (up about .6 inches)
    •Chest - 44.1 (up .1 inches)
    •Waist - 33 (up .3 inches)
    •Weight - 189 (up 9 lbs!)

    So I'm pretty happy so far...
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    Quote Originally Posted by commodore64 View Post
    Another update:

    After 2 weeks (Friday 23 Sep - Friday 7 Oct) here are the results:
    •Average Calorie Surplus - 694 per day
    •Body Fat - 8.5 (even!)
    •Arm - 17.1 (up about .6 inches)
    •Chest - 44.1 (up .1 inches)
    •Waist - 33 (up .3 inches)
    •Weight - 189 (up 9 lbs!)

    So I'm pretty happy so far...
    Nice man; solid gains for only being on two weeks
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    Quote Originally Posted by commodore64 View Post
    Another update:

    After 2 weeks (Friday 23 Sep - Friday 7 Oct) here are the results:
    •Average Calorie Surplus - 694 per day
    •Body Fat - 8.5 (even!)
    •Arm - 17.1 (up about .6 inches)
    •Chest - 44.1 (up .1 inches)
    •Waist - 33 (up .3 inches)
    •Weight - 189 (up 9 lbs!)

    So I'm pretty happy so far...

    u aint seen nothin yet lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by gymrat827 View Post
    u aint seen nothin yet lol
    Haha yeah man I hope you're taking progress pictures
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    Week 3 update....

    First – I dropped all the orals, due to having a chance to get Accutane to kill long lasting acne and the gross bacne, and don’t want to fry my liver. So here’s the actual “cycle” now.

    - HGH - 10iu nightly pin
    - HGH PowerPatches
    - Secretropin HGH, 6 sprays nightly
    - test cyponate 200mg/weekly (6 weeks)
    - Anastrozol
    - HCG - 500mg weekly

    this is basically an hrt type routine now...nothing that aggressive. But the eating, for me, is way more than normal. So hoping to see some good gains. So that's what I've been running for this this past week.


    After 3 weeks (Friday 23 Sep - Friday 14 Oct) here are the results:
    •Average Calorie Surplus - 970 per day
    •Body Fat - 8.8 (up .3%)
    •Arm - 17.1 (up about .6 inches from start, no change from week 2)
    •Chest - 45 (up 1 inch from start!)
    •Waist – 32.5 (down .2 inches from start!)
    •Weight - 189 (up 9 lbs from start, no change from week 2)

    So I’ve put over half an inch in my arm, and an inch on my chest in 3 weeks. Minimal fat gain. Not too bad.

    Strength is just about even, most of my lifts, if they have increased, have done so by only 5 or 10 pounds depending on the lift.

    By the way, I am taking pics every Friday, but honestly, can’t really tell anything in the pics. Although pretty much anyone that sees me after a workout that knows me has made a comment on my getting bigger the last few weeks.

    However, below is the lastest ultrasound - since this is bi and waist, doesn't show too much change:

    Name:  ultrasound-waist and bi - oct 14 2011.PNG
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  25. Professional Member
    TheDarkHalf's Avatar
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    Nice man keep the updates coming! Too bad you dropped the orals....you would have gotten pretty big
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    Thumbs up


    Fourth and Final Bulking Update:

    After 4 weeks (Friday 23 Sep - Friday 21 Oct) here are the results:
    • Average Calorie Surplus - 900 per day
    • Body Fat - 9.2 (up .7% from the start)
    • Arm - 17.1 (up about .6 inches from start, no change from week 3)
    • Chest - 45.5 (up 1.5 inch from start!)
    • Waist – 33 (up .3 inches from start)
    • Weight - 189 (up 9 lbs from start, no change from week 3)

    Pretty interesting results. I made really strong gains in weight and arms for the first 2 - 3 weeks when I was on the orals. As soon as I dropped the orals, I never gained another pound despite a calorie surpluss, BF went up a little bit, but chest grew (likely due to the lats growing as I focused my workouts on back and arms, not chest which was a strength already). Now I'm curious as hell as to what a 4 - 6 week stack of orals would yeild. But with a half an inch on my arms and one and half on my chest, and mild increase in fat, I'll call this a win.

    Thanks for all the help.

    Now on to the cut - shooting for 4% BF by thanksgiving...
  27. Professional Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by commodore64 View Post
    Fourth and Final Bulking Update:

    After 4 weeks (Friday 23 Sep - Friday 21 Oct) here are the results:
    • Average Calorie Surplus - 900 per day
    • Body Fat - 9.2 (up .7% from the start)
    • Arm - 17.1 (up about .6 inches from start, no change from week 3)
    • Chest - 45.5 (up 1.5 inch from start!)
    • Waist – 33 (up .3 inches from start)
    • Weight - 189 (up 9 lbs from start, no change from week 3)

    Pretty interesting results. I made really strong gains in weight and arms for the first 2 - 3 weeks when I was on the orals. As soon as I dropped the orals, I never gained another pound despite a calorie surpluss, BF went up a little bit, but chest grew (likely due to the lats growing as I focused my workouts on back and arms, not chest which was a strength already). Now I'm curious as hell as to what a 4 - 6 week stack of orals would yeild. But with a half an inch on my arms and one and half on my chest, and mild increase in fat, I'll call this a win.

    Thanks for all the help.

    Now on to the cut - shooting for 4% BF by thanksgiving...
    Nice results man. Why 4%?? Got a show coming up?
  28. New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkHalf View Post
    Nice results man. Why 4%?? Got a show coming up?
    Thanaks man. No...just pool time over the holiday. I've been there a few times, and I can get there in 4 weeks from where I'm at if I nail the diet. And I've found a diet that works really well.

    That said,

    a) I'm in the UK and have a whacked schedule so it's tough
    b) I already had one stumble this week where I netted even cal in v. cal out

    so I've got to do better to make it.
  

  
 

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